Speculations Let’s Settle This - Are Oden and Toki Really Dead?

[Jew D. Boy]

We’ve all discussed this in bits and pieces on other threads, so I figured I’d establish a single place for us to hash this out. Title says it all, but I’ll add a bit more: I don’t think Oden could survive the execution, and even if he did somehow, it would be a tremendous cop out and totally invalidate everything the Scabbards have done in his name. Without an emotional core, this flashback, arc, and eventual downfall of Kaido all feel a little rote.

That being said, I kinda hope *Toki* is still around somewhere, waiting on the fringes of this conflict until the right moment to strike presents itself. Her DF is way too tantalizing to be contained to a flashback, and there’s still a lot she could do in the present to either explore her powers or, preferably, use them in the fight against the Yonko. Unless or until we see her and her husband splayed out and get text confirmation of their demise, or Wano ends without either making an appearance in the current storyline, anything’s possible here

What say the rest of you? Do you want either of them to be alive? If so, how do you see them coming back in an organic way?

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Naaaaaaaah
Not for me

The amount of screen time as well as skipping makes me believe that both are being presented in flashback and given time for the present time for them to "Shine"

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Naaaaaaaah
Not for me

The amount of screen time as well as skipping makes me believe that both are being presented in flashback and given time for the present time for them to "Shine"

I’m not necessarily disagreeing, but how do you think Toki’s gotten to shine? We met her, learned she’s from the Void Century and has the Toki Toki no Mi, watched her have Oden’s kids, and then...absolutely nothing. We have no reason to view her as a prophet or have any indication of her fortune telling abilities, so we just don’t get to see anything substantial from her outside of this flashback? That just doesn’t sit right with me.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

I’m not necessarily disagreeing, but how do you think Toki’s gotten to shine? We met her, learned she’s from the Void Century and has the Toki Toki no Mi, watched her have Oden’s kids, and then...absolutely nothing. We have no reason to view her as a prophet or have any indication of her fortune telling abilities, so we just don’t get to see anything substantial from her outside of this flashback? That just doesn’t sit right with me.

The fact that Toki (came from 800+ years ago)
Have not said a single shit about the "great cleansing" that happened during her time.
That alone tells me she has a bigger role that saying "oooh nine shadow of samurai will kill you orochi after 20 years" LOL
C'mon
If Oda's whole purpose for this character is to just say that line. The wife of the "Legendary Oden"? The same wife who came from void century???

I think I personally would see it worse writing than the complaint of "If Toki is alive, it's bad writing"

No dude, if she has done nothing in the flashback and died, that's worse writing with all respect. Like what the fuck! Is she only here to transport few retainers and say those lines? C'mon! That's 100times worse writing than actually giving her a purpose and make her alive!

 

[Finalbeta]

Oden managed to endure the boiling for a while however I'm not sure he could of escaped his fate in some way

 

[Jew D. Boy]

The fact that Toki (came from 800+ years ago)
Have not said a single shit about the "great cleansing" that happened during her time.
That alone tells me she has a bigger role that saying "oooh nine shadow of samurai will kill you orochi after 20 years" LOL
C'mon
If Oda's whole purpose for this character is to just say that line. The wife of the "Legendary Oden"? The same wife who came from void century???

I think I personally would see it worse writing than the complaint of "If Toki is alive, it's bad writing"

No dude, if she has done nothing in the flashback and died, that's worse writing with all respect. Like what the fuck! Is she only here to transport few retainers and say those lines? C'mon! That's 100times worse writing than actually giving her a purpose and make her alive!

That’s what I’m saying...there’s a lot more she’s capable of doing, more ways she can aid in the quest to beat the Yonko and change the world than serving as a one-off plot device. Oden will have fulfilled his purpose by the end of the flashback IF he actually dies from being boiled; Toki’s should just be beginning at the same.

Post automatically merged: Feb 13, 2020

Oden managed to endure the boiling for a while however I'm not sure he could of escaped his fate in some way

I don’t think he did, but several long running theories indicate he could be. The only certain thing in this series is that nothing is certain

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Oden managed to endure the boiling for a while however I'm not sure he could of escaped his fate in some way

He will time jump my friend. Trust me
Everyone, Kaido, orochi. and even the retainers will think Oden was boiled to death and melted in the boiled pot. While Toki trasported him into the future.

Mark it. Screenshot it

 

[KiriNigiri]

Yes. Absolutely.

Firstly, if they were alive, time would be dedicated explaining where they've been. Why they didn't make a move.

Second, what would they do if they were alive? What can Toki provide? Insight on the Void Century? We saw how that turned out when the SHs were with Rayleigh. Everyone agreed to learn about it all on their own. So Toki would be pointless on that front. As for Oden, he'd either be too strong an asset, all tension against Kaido would be lost, or for some reason, he can't be of help in the fight. For one, his swords were passed down to his kids, and one of them to Zoro. Is he just going to pick up new swords? What's the point?

Thirdly, it utterly guts the story of any narrative punch. All throughout this flashback, we witness how hard the Scabbards are trying to be of help to Oden. In the end, he helped them. This is essentially their one means of giving back to the lord they feel indebted to. Oden living would cheapen that on so many levels. And if Oden and Toki were alive, then it would take a load of meaning out of Momo's arc. He was tasked with becoming the next Lord and Shogun following his father and grandfather. If his dad were still around to help with his growth, that extra bit of dramatic flair towards his ascension plummets.

In conclusion, Oden and Toki being alive provides absolutely nothing of value besides cheap subversion and shock value. Oda has quite clearly lined up for Toki's and especially Oden's deaths to be catalyst for the living characters to play off of.

I've loads more to say, but I'll wait for the next chapter's release.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

There's zero reason to keep either alive. Also, careful to what you elude to. Chapter hasn't dropped yet.

 

[ardym]

i think she really died otherwise it will not be necessary to have that long flashback just to bring them again and make the story more about them than more about the main character.
and for sure Oden would not tell his subordiantes to open the border themselves if he was alive .
sure Toki has the ability to survive but not Oden,unless CoC has an ability like travling to the future but i just i doubt that.

 

[Chrono]

Hopefully they are dead.

 

[DarkWitch]

Yes they are dead and they better be dead.

 

[Worst]

Currently i can't see how he can survive this he is too damaged just after 5 minutes let's assume he survived 60 minutes i can't imagine the state of his body and Kaido is a couple of meters from him i just hope Oda is not a a d**k and actually show us his dead body or it's a tragedy of theories till the end of the arc about Toki idk why she stayed behind in the first place she could have travelled with Momo & Co unless there is a limitation to her DF

 

[MarineHQ]

They should 1000% be dead!

Oda would just destroy the legendary vibe around Oden if he's just going to appear in the story the next couple months, lol.

Inherited will is one of the main topics of One piece. As long as their will is still kicking Oden/Toki are not dead by OP definition, which it isn't since wano's borders will be open by the end of this arc.

The only reason why Oda would want to keep Oden alive is to destroy the arc going forward, pls be dead Oden.

 

[Mohammad211]

For Oden i think he is dead 99% i think he will endure boiling almost until the end but orochi will do something in last second or may be they will not free them after 1 hour
For Toki i always think she is still alive but i was not sure But after see her legs wound and not see much about her in flashback i'm 95% sure that she is alive

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Really? I’m one of the few people here who thinks Toki shouldn’t be dead? I’m fine dying on this hill myself, but I’m pulling for her to show up in the storyline, there’s just way too much that she can do OR can be done with her to waste that in a flashback everyone seems to hate.

 

[Mohammad211]

Really? I’m one of the few people here who thinks Toki shouldn’t be dead? I’m fine dying on this hill myself, but I’m pulling for her to show up in the storyline, there’s just way too much that she can do OR can be done with her to waste that in a flashback everyone seems to hate.

im also think she is alive
Honestly if she is dead then she will be most Useless Character in one Piece
Introducing a Charcter With Time Time DF That Was From VC and She do noting in Flashback Expect Speech Before dead?
We Still Don't Know Why She Traveled in Time Why She Want To go to Wano

 

[Finalbeta]

Hopefully they are dead.

Technically there's not so much reason for Oden to still stand alive since he is no longer an important part in the grand scheme (main plot). Could perhaps have a meaning as a side story character though.

 

[Buusatan94]

Hopefully they are.

 

[dirtyLarry]

Really? I’m one of the few people here who thinks Toki shouldn’t be dead? I’m fine dying on this hill myself, but I’m pulling for her to show up in the storyline, there’s just way too much that she can do OR can be done with her to waste that in a flashback everyone seems to hate.

The narrative of "everyone hating the flashback" only exists because idiots bark the loudest all the time.
Generally it's a positive received flashback. It can even be seen on this forum in the chapter threads.
Only around 5-8% of the voters vote for "poor" or "awful" every week, while the vast majority votes for "awesome" or "blew my mind".
Unfortunately most of those 5-8% are trolls, that are usually the loudest and most frequent posters, leading to the believe the flashback isn't well received.