General & Others Long Time One Piece Readers: Has the One Piece fandom ever been this much in shambles?
Literally this. Yet people here keep quoting me to try and exaggerate my comments.
"Tension" is a very complicated thing to write into stories. It requires people to not have plot armor.
You KNOW Robin wasn't going to die. You KNOW Usopp isn't going to die. This is not literal narrative tension that the author has proven does not work. Oda isn't Robert Kirkman or GRRM or Kentaro Miura
"Emotional stakes" are not the same thing as "narrative tension" and risk of death in stories. Merry is the only casualty in W7/Enies Lobby, and was immediately rectified/replaced by a better ship with her spirit living on. It was BEAUTIFUL, but its not "tension"
"Tension" is a very complicated thing to write into stories. It requires people to not have plot armor.
You KNOW Robin wasn't going to die. You KNOW Usopp isn't going to die. This is not literal narrative tension that the author has proven does not work. Oda isn't Robert Kirkman or GRRM or Kentaro Miura
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"Emotional stakes" are not the same thing as "narrative tension" and risk of death in stories. Merry is the only casualty in W7/Enies Lobby, and was immediately rectified/replaced by a better ship with her spirit living on. It was BEAUTIFUL, but its not "tension"
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My god man, read my comments. My point is, before Ace/WB, there is no instance of meaningful, human "death" in this series. You expected Luffy to save Ace. Even up until a point, it was expected WB would live.
The point I was making was that the story never gave you a reason to feel "tense" about Ace or WB until Chapters 572 and 573, when WB said he'd die to let everyone escape and Ace actually got fatally wounded.
These are SHOCK reveals. Not tension. The author played up on expectations to not expect them to die, then did so and it was devastating.
I'm not saying it can't happen again, but Oda doesn't kill characters ON PURPOSE for this reason. This is what im saying to you.
And that's OK, I'm glad you have that opinion. I love Enies Lobby too.
The point I was making was that the story never gave you a reason to feel "tense" about Ace or WB until Chapters 572 and 573, when WB said he'd die to let everyone escape and Ace actually got fatally wounded.
These are SHOCK reveals. Not tension. The author played up on expectations to not expect them to die, then did so and it was devastating.
I'm not saying it can't happen again, but Oda doesn't kill characters ON PURPOSE for this reason. This is what im saying to you.
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And that's OK, I'm glad you have that opinion. I love Enies Lobby too.
I doubt anyone here disagrees with you on that. W7/EL is definitely the strongest the crew dynamic has been in OP, and the best parts about it are still among the best the series has to offer.
But the point is that even back then the writing had wrinkles that remain to this day, patterns that Oda has been repeating pretty much since Alabasta and that people still have issues with.
The point isn't to excuse Onigashima's issues, which run much deeper, but to show that a lot of the stuff that fans expected from it (scabbards dying to Kaido, the alliance getting decimated by 2 yonkos, no light hearted moments or side characters) is just stuff that's ingrained deep in One Piece at this point.
But the point is that even back then the writing had wrinkles that remain to this day, patterns that Oda has been repeating pretty much since Alabasta and that people still have issues with.
The point isn't to excuse Onigashima's issues, which run much deeper, but to show that a lot of the stuff that fans expected from it (scabbards dying to Kaido, the alliance getting decimated by 2 yonkos, no light hearted moments or side characters) is just stuff that's ingrained deep in One Piece at this point.
Tension in most narratives are about the "risk of death", so yeah. It was clear none of these people were dying since Oda didn't even kill Pell or Pagaya 2 arcs prior.
I "felt" tension with Aokiji for sure, especially with the way he talked to the crew, but it was dissipated the moment it led to zero consequences. This is fine. I'm not actually saying this is an issue, but the problem is tension comes from the fact that the MCs are not immune to the consequences of the story. This is not the case with One Piece
Think Berserk, where quite literally
For example, I did not "feel" tension with Kuma and Zoro. It NAILED the emotional beats for Zoro's dedication to Luffy, but "nothing happened" the same chapter that Kuma left. It WAS scary he showed up right after they beat Moria, but as a reader you'd know everyone would be fine. You'd just question "how"?
I "felt" tension with Aokiji for sure, especially with the way he talked to the crew, but it was dissipated the moment it led to zero consequences. This is fine. I'm not actually saying this is an issue, but the problem is tension comes from the fact that the MCs are not immune to the consequences of the story. This is not the case with One Piece
Think Berserk, where quite literally
everyone died at one point in the story save for 3 people. The arcs following had TONS of tension, because you felt it was possible for Miura to kill off more main characters. Then.....he didn't and continued to not. Like One Piece, Berserk actually became much lower in narrative tension because Miura stopped killing MCs to the point in the story where it is now.
For example, I did not "feel" tension with Kuma and Zoro. It NAILED the emotional beats for Zoro's dedication to Luffy, but "nothing happened" the same chapter that Kuma left. It WAS scary he showed up right after they beat Moria, but as a reader you'd know everyone would be fine. You'd just question "how"?
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To me the biggest difference that makes people feel a lack of tension in the Post-TS compared to the Pre-TS is the fact that Oda started using side characters instead of Straw Hats as the emotional anchors of the arcs.
We actually cared about Sanji in Baratie, Nami in Arlong Park, Chopper's backstory in Drum Island, Vivi in Alabasta, Robin and Usopp in Water 7 / Enies Lobby, Brook in Thriller Bark, Straw Hats in Sabaody.
That's why some earlier arcs like Skypiea / Syrup Village didn't hit as hard for some people, because in Skypiea there's no single important character we need to care about, we have to care about the entire nation and factions, so it's more complex and hard to latch on and in Syrup Village we had to care more about the town and Kaya than Usopp to actually feel tension for that.
I feel like every arc in the Post-TS feel more like Syrup Village / Skypia, Oda creates a bunch of characters part of a nation and wants us to care about them, so we feel tension fighting to save them. But because they are a bunch of characters that end up dividing people's attention and steals the screen time of the straw hats we love, we end up not caring for the islands like we did back then.
Because of that, people actually end up pissed off at those characters we are suposed to latch on and care about the arc, like the Scabbards, Momo and Tama in Wano.
We actually cared about Sanji in Baratie, Nami in Arlong Park, Chopper's backstory in Drum Island, Vivi in Alabasta, Robin and Usopp in Water 7 / Enies Lobby, Brook in Thriller Bark, Straw Hats in Sabaody.
That's why some earlier arcs like Skypiea / Syrup Village didn't hit as hard for some people, because in Skypiea there's no single important character we need to care about, we have to care about the entire nation and factions, so it's more complex and hard to latch on and in Syrup Village we had to care more about the town and Kaya than Usopp to actually feel tension for that.
I feel like every arc in the Post-TS feel more like Syrup Village / Skypia, Oda creates a bunch of characters part of a nation and wants us to care about them, so we feel tension fighting to save them. But because they are a bunch of characters that end up dividing people's attention and steals the screen time of the straw hats we love, we end up not caring for the islands like we did back then.
Because of that, people actually end up pissed off at those characters we are suposed to latch on and care about the arc, like the Scabbards, Momo and Tama in Wano.
I think after Marineford people hoped Oda would be more liberal with characters dying instead of doubling down on the fake deaths. Especiallu with how in Thriller Bark Oda sold Kaido as someone ultra brutal who slaughtered Mora entire crew. I never expected straw hat death but I at least thought some scabbards would be dead by now.
While people may be foolish with expecting deaths in One Piece, Oda is far from blameless with his fake out addiction.
While people may be foolish with expecting deaths in One Piece, Oda is far from blameless with his fake out addiction.
That is not what tension means. Death is one part of many other things that make up tension. The Sunny being destroyed is tension. Luffy not being able to use Haki ever again is tension. Usopp leaving the crew is tension. Someone being captured is tension. Tension is a set of many things, not just "risk of death". That is a very narrow minded definition of tension.
If Oda wants to add tension to the story without killing anyone he could have done so many things like having Killer eating the smile fruit which makes him in a permanent mental state. Or Zoro Enma blade using up so much of his haki that he isn't able to build up his haki anymore for many arcs. So many things.
If Oda wants to add tension to the story without killing anyone he could have done so many things like having Killer eating the smile fruit which makes him in a permanent mental state. Or Zoro Enma blade using up so much of his haki that he isn't able to build up his haki anymore for many arcs. So many things.
- 2 of your 3 examples already have occurred, it wouldn't be tension if it happens literally again....
- Luffy incurring inner turmoil like not being able to use haki does not work in this series anymore. He already hardened his resolve pre-timeskip with JJinbe. The story has no space for the MC to get weaker again.
You seem very fixated on Haki being lost by characters. I'm not even sure how that's tension lol. You also seem to be confusing "tension" with "consequence" in plot.
I'll give you examples of actual tension:
- Luffy getting sick like Roger and Chopper feeling pressured to cure him.
- Robin actually getting captured by CP-0 instead of "maybe"
- Blackbeard finding Pluton and destroying entire Kingdoms with it.
I said in "most narratives", tension is incurred by risk of death, because it is. This happens in most dramas, action adventures, etc. because that's the oldest and most logical narrative application to tension in the book.
It's not "narrowminded" if 99% of media uses tension in this way. I never defined tension as anything or said what it means, I said this to you:
Nothing I mentioned had happened, what the heck are you talking about?
It does not have to be Luffy, it can be ANYONE. I was just giving examples.
I am giving EXAMPLES! It does not only have to be Haki. So someone losing haki for multiple arcs is not tension? Is this person serious?
Also, consequences is a subset of tension. You obviously don't know what tension is.
It does not have to be Luffy, it can be ANYONE. I was just giving examples.
I am giving EXAMPLES! It does not only have to be Haki. So someone losing haki for multiple arcs is not tension? Is this person serious?
Also, consequences is a subset of tension. You obviously don't know what tension is.
Merry died. Sunny dying is a retread. It also entirely ruins Franky's dream and the point of Adam wood. Usopp ALREADY tried to leave and strengthened his resolve. It's a retread.
You are literally witnessing an event where 2 characters are beating a Yonko without Haki lol. What tension?
You are literally witnessing an event where 2 characters are beating a Yonko without Haki lol. What tension?
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First you said ODa has always been consistent and now that I gave you an example of Oda being consistent of him destorying the sunny , now all of a sudden "IT ALREADY HAPPENED"! You are contradicting yourself my friend.
Yes, Franky building the Sunny and seeing it get destoryed is what is tension. That is tension.
Zoro has NO devil fruit. Like I said before you are comparing oranges to apples.
Yes, Franky building the Sunny and seeing it get destoryed is what is tension. That is tension.
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Zoro has NO devil fruit. Like I said before you are comparing oranges to apples.
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That's very true, the whole Yamato-gender debate is probably the best example of it. Regardless of who turned out to be right in the end, both sides used the topic as an excuse to just go completely ballistic on each other. Like no matter how you'd refer to the character, there would ALWAYS be people correcting or even straight-out attacking you for it. People nowadays are so absorbed in fictional media that they completely forget that at the end of the day it's still just a drawing, and that's definitely not worth attacking someone else over.
If you can't understand the difference between an author being formulaic and him not repeating shit like the ship bring destoyed again or Usopp leaving (because they literally cannot happen again in the manga for obvious reasons), then we are done with this conversation
And Zoro not being able to use Haki even though his new blade takes it from him? Boy I'm glad you aren't writing this series
If you can't understand the difference between an author being formulaic and him not repeating shit like the ship bring destoyed again or Usopp leaving (because they literally cannot happen again in the manga for obvious reasons), then we are done with this conversation
And Zoro not being able to use Haki even though his new blade takes it from him? Boy I'm glad you aren't writing this series
Yes Zoro not being able to use Haki again is what is called tension, stop trying to change the subject into something it isn't. Law not using Haki against a Yonko has nothing to do with what I said. It is an apple to oranges comparison. Instead suppose Law lost his devil fruit. That is a better analogy to mine. Read properly next time.