General & Others Luffy vs Kaido is the worst fight in One Piece

#21
Kaido acts more like a protagonist at this point. Fight seriously, try to understand Luffy's power, while Luffy keep mocking and trolling him.

Clearly Luffy now acts like a god, who is immortal and faces no consequence. Kaido is just a fly trapped in a box.

It is funny that it turns out OP is about a man, whose chosen to be god, want to be a pirate king.
 
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DoctorIndigo

Ragnarok is Here!
#22
A climatic fight should always carry the appropriate gravitas. If you’re going to hype up a fight for years and years and also have the main character rage about how the villain has been stealing people’s freedom, raping their country and shitting on their proud warriors, I don’t see why you would choreograph the fight in such a juvenile, cartoonish way. Either give the fight zero personal stakes and make them 4fun like Davy Back, or have the characters actually try and convey to the audience just how important the fight is.
Very well put
 
#23
this is dumb, how tf is luffy gonna defeat kaido with just adv haki? and how will rayleigh teach something strong enough to beat kaido if he himself cant beat kaido? + its a straight rip off from bleach before fight against aizen.
You guys were the same people who were saying that Luffy was going to defeat Kaido with ACoC but now all of a sudden "this is dumb"?
 
#24
A climatic fight should always carry the appropriate gravitas. If you’re going to hype up a fight for years and years and also have the main character rage about how the villain has been stealing people’s freedom, raping their country and shitting on their proud warriors, I don’t see why you would choreograph the fight in such a juvenile, cartoonish way. Either give the fight zero personal stakes and make them 4fun like Davy Back, or have the characters actually try and convey to the audience just how important the fight is.
Another thread where scrolling all way finding your post was all i needed before leaving it.
 
#26
A climatic fight should always carry the appropriate gravitas. If you’re going to hype up a fight for years and years and also have the main character rage about how the villain has been stealing people’s freedom, raping their country and shitting on their proud warriors, I don’t see why you would choreograph the fight in such a juvenile, cartoonish way. Either give the fight zero personal stakes and make them 4fun like Davy Back, or have the characters actually try and convey to the audience just how important the fight is.
Time to make the fanfic yourself of Luffy's effort to figuring out powerups and finally defeating Kaidou :cheers:Making the fanfic yourself should be a win-win solution @Den_Den_Mushi here are a few rough ideas if you need any

Chapter 1045: Chomp

- Kaidou tells Luffy about a certain past incident involving Gomu Gomu no Mi.

- A few years ago, Shanks arranged for abduction of Celestial Dragon Royal Princess by paid underworld assassins as proxy. It served as an urgent distraction for the Marines, while Shanks used that commotion to steal Gomu Gomu no Mi by himself.

- Vegapunk gave an official research result statement to Gorosei, that Gomu Gomu's Nika is a Devouring God which eats its users from within, thus also inevitably devours any living being coming into physical contact with it. That was why the fruit was classified as [Unawakenable] for 800 years.

- Gorosei decided to let Luffy roam free since Vegapunk estimated Luffy's death in three years after eating the fruit. Information about the nature of Gomu Gomu Fruit was kept secret by Gorosei, since they did not want to risk the live of The Admirals.

- Shanks offered Kaidou this secret information about the nature of this secret fruit, for the price of time. Shanks said, it will be most beneficial for Kaidou to wait for a few years. Until the emergence of a certain someone being able to tame and wield Gomu Gomu no Mi, without the fruit devouring him. Shanks promised that the certain boy will give the true meaning to Kaidou's life.

- Hearing this, Kaidou decided to back off from Marineford and thanked Red Hair for the valuable information.

- Back to the present, Kaidou laughs as he told Luffy that Red Hair apparently sent Luffy to him, therefore keeping his promise.

- Luffy vs Kaidou clash, their Conqueror's Infusion invisible zone completely breaks Onigashima Island itself and the giant skull into small crystal-like shards

- Everyone screamed as they fell from the destroyed floating island. Trafalgar Law created a giant "T-Room", teleporting everyone safely to Flower Capital.

- Law also teleports the rest of Onigashima's bombs from the storage within T-Room, ready to use them if the situation requires

- Luffy and Kaidou fiercely battle miles high in the sky, too fast for everyone else to see. Citizens of Flower Capital thought that someone set up giant continuous fireworks, but it was actually the chains of Conqueror's Black Lightning and elemental blasts encompassing the entirety of Wano.

- Luffy yells, "Yodel-oh-ee-dee-NIKA-ay-dee Yodel-oh-ee-dee-yodel-oh-LUFFY-dee-JOY !!!" and his yodel voice transforms into a devastating golden-crimson beam of blinding light. Sensing that energy which never exists in this world, Kaidou uses Awakening, every ounce of his strength to dodge. The golden-crimson beam flattens every single mountain near its path until it splits even The Red Line itself in two, miles of its center area disintegrated into nothing.

- Pangaea Castle shakes violently. The Gorosei's face become all pale with fear. Luffy cackles from Wano as they hear his threat, "Don't gossip all day about me, Grandpas! Wait in line to party with me!"

- Kaidou lands in the peak of Mount Fuji, the highest mountain in whole country of Wano. He is already in Awakened Form, Elemental Dragon God capable of eating and even creating all elements.

- Suddenly a huge face of a child with blazing hair emerges from nowhere. The face is impossibly massive, deeply shocking every person in Flower Capital.

- Nami recognize the face, "That grin..it's Luffy!"

- In an scenic but hilarious double spread, Luffy's island-sized face chomps Mount Fuji, eating the entire mountain like a chocolate bar along with Kaidou. Then Luffy burps Kaido's body out with the remains of the mountain, saying that the taste is awful.

- Luffy's face reverts back to its original size. Kaidou is in poor condition, his body flattened and mangled. Both of his legs are eaten.

- Luffy said, "Give up and let your people eat, freak!"

- The alliance yelled, "The only freak here is yooouuuuu!"

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Break next week

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source: Oda's step sister Honjo Suzu
My perspective on Oda's mistakes regarding Luffy vs Kaidou, and few suggestions (wishful thinking and wank) to make the storytelling and powerscaling better and earned. Here we go:

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1. Recklessness from the start

- Luffy acting impulsive in Udon, at the first meeting with Kaidou.

The solution: Saving FS, facing a Yonkou, Luffy should've instead realized that every possibilities of the Future if he try to fight Kaidou, is death. Not just his death, but the massacre for his comrades first (imagine seeing Zoro, Sanji, Nami, Robin, Law die in front of him, their bodies exploded into meat juice as Kaidou deathblitz them all, with just a single move, his speed to kill them less than a hundreth of a second.) and he saw his own death the last. This emphasizes both Luffy's FS and also Kaidou being WSC. The win-win solution for hyping their future battle.

That way, Luffy will wreck his own brain lightning-fast to bring his friends to some hideout in Wano first (before Kaidou closing in on them) instead of even encountering, much less confronting, the WSC directly. His friends will be confused as Luffy seem to know which way to go to and which direction to avoid in order to finally escape something that they havent even sense yet, which Kaidou's presence and attention.

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2. Lack of individual preparation and self build-up

- Luffy is facing the literal Strongest Living Being. He cant just go wherever he want and fighting fodders and Ulti and Page 1 and Yamato and Queen etc, he is the last stand against Kaidou for Tonjit's sake. He shouldve preserved his strength, move as efficiently as possible in this arc. Only fight himself if its absolutely necessary. Which, with Zoro-Law-Kidd-Yamato backing him up, they wont let anyone near him. If King-Queen-Jack can be fought against 1v1, well Luffy shouldnt even participate in fighting them, and save his strength only for Kaidou since the start.

- Luffy is facing the literal Strongest Living Being. It is foolish to train in prison, after defeat. The wise action is for Luffy to train individually since the start of post-timeskip, in order to defeat Kaidou. Bring us a flashback of Luffy being oddly silent and locking himself in the Thousand Sunny's Captain Room, hours and even days after each arc battle. Against Hody, Doflamingo, Cracker, Katakuri. During which, he evaluate each of his strength and weaknesses, and constantly went under image training against the enemy he just beat, finding the best possible scenario to beat them efficiently to correct his mistakes...and more importantly, to do the third keypoint from me, that Luffy severely lacked, even when he should've made himself the best in the One Piece World regarding this:

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3. Too much Messiah and Destiny - Lack of Creative Process - Luffy's Power Invention.

If there is something really impressive about Luffy, it's his creativity to invent his own powers using whatever assets he possesses, into something really fresh, fun, and at the same time limit-breakingly powerful. Imagine using one of the most boring and weakest Devil Fruit, Rubber Fruit, and instead formulate Gear 2nd. Imagine seeing it at the first time. Even without proper process and hints, its application in battle was nothing short of incredible. Now Luffy should've trained his creativity and Oda should've (to some extent) depicted him as a boy that is hinted to be mentally exhausted, some time before each important battle. During his movement to reach Kaidou, while he shouldnt even participate in other battles...in contrast, his mind shouldve reeled constantly. Since he must push himself to formulate the strongest power possible, he cant relax since it's the WSC he will fight against. He shouldve told himself, its to protect everything. He can rest once its over. Its to protect everything. He can rest once its over.

During Luffy vs Kaidou, Nami or Zoro or someone shouldve told other alliance members like Scabbards, or having an internal monologue, that Luffy was exhausted before this battle against Kaidou even begin: since Luffy seemed to constantly invent and do experiment of his own fruit-haki-body-energy-mind etc to escalate his own powerlevel, and also constantly re-evaluating his own ideas on that, in order to surpass his enemies with his original ways.

This way, Luffy didnt need to emphasize the fated Voice of All Things as something to help him in dire needs, such as when Kaidou threw him down from Onigashima. Luffy shouldve faced Kaidou with his own original powers, maybe he managed to invented Internal Destruction as the result of his power invention? Instead of Hyogoro teaching him? That way it felt earned. Yes i'm looking for that feeling of Luffy earning something instead of taking that CoC specialization notion for granted.


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4. Too much intervention for hyping up others

Luffy vs WSC Kaidou, is the battle for PK. Just like Zoro vs Mihawk is a battle for WSS. Oda shouldve make it clear to everyone that Luffy vs Kaidou is not a battle they can interfere without their own death as the only result. Make Kaidou oneshot Zunisha as revenge for Zunisha oneshotting Jack, so everyone recognize that Kaidou is an existence with an impossible powerlevel beyond their imaginations. Make Kaidou state "This is first warning, and also the last." or something signifying that he, Kaidou, holds the life and death of the whole alliance, at his mercy.

This will be a solid pay-off to Kaidou's WSC introduction build-up. If Kaidou oneshot a living island then what can they even do lol? Oda should pay his respect to Kaidou this way, not making Kaidou relying on hostage since Oden must be wanked as well lol. Pick your priorities clearly please, Kaidou is a strength-epitome arc boss who btw also decides he wanna be PK. Its an exclusive battle for Luffy. Make it so. As for the others, they can fight BM. Oda can make Orochi as an extremely proficient swordsman who is also a menacing hydra etc, for Zoro to fight against for example. If Zoro absolutely must fulfill dragon-slaying legend as his role, then make Orochi have Seiryu Devil Fruit instead. While Kaidou can be designed to create his own powers with mystic sacrifices or absorbing a hyper mythical artifact or something and assimilated its powers with his own, Original Titan powers or something, something worthy of WSC. Whatever, doesnt even have to be a Devil Fruit in order for Kaidou to achieve his WSC status, Oda can always find another way actually.

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5. Earned powers, Earned Loss

Then after this much preparation and build-up, Luffy can earn his powers, he can battle to his heart's content, THEN he can lose. I agree that Luffy shouldve be beaten in Onigashima battle against Kaidou. But only with point 1-4 fulfilled. Not without. So Luffy' Onigashima defeat shouldve been his first and last, against Kaidou. No fake tension moments, no empty hypes, but an actual WSC and earned powerup, also Luffy becoming the one we actually root for to win an impossible fight, and he lost after all. A whole-hearted defeat that happen even after Luffy prepare himself to the utmost. In exchange, Oda shouldve replaced Kaidou oneshotting Luffy (Udon), with Luffy making strategic retreat instead (see point 1).

6. Finding Out Ways to Heal and Formulate the Final PU

Luffy can heal himself with meat. Gag moments right? Not for me. Oda shouldve gone all the way and make that stuff a doorway into Luffy figuring out that he can make his rubber body metabolize nutrients extremely fast, converting all of it into protein regeneration and strength-muscle-building or whatever. During that process, Luffy also formulate his last powerup. It can be achieved from figuring out that Ragnarok had CoC infusion. But Luffy doesnt stop there, he acknowledge that just copying his enemy's CoC Coating techniques will not grant him victory since his enemy can also do the same. So Luffy takes a step further, and make something never seen before in this world. It can be Internal Destruction CoC, like Rupture2 powers made entirely from CoC infusion, or it can be compression-based kinetic energy manipulation, whatever, something only someone as creative as Luffy is capable of. So once again, that Luffy' victory feels earned.

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Sorry, cant resist.
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- Luffy goes strongest G4 mode for example fusing all Boundman-Tankman-Snakeman into one mode for example like Hovercraft Man or Artillery Man something, and use CoC Coating techs with that mode.



- Kaidou flashback, related with Xebec, Roger, Joy Boy, and finally connecting it with Luffy.

- Kaidou goes Awakening, evolving from Seiryu (Azure Dragon) into Kouryu (Emperor Dragon of The Skies). Super majestic design, nothing in this world can match Kouryu's raw physical power.



- Zunisha come to help Luffy just to get oneshotted by Kaidou without becoming any combat factor at all.

- Luffy is getting heavily cornered and in the verge of death. Kaidou promises to evaporate Luffy's body in order for him not to get back again.

- Infusing CoC Coating into his Boro Breath, Kaidou's ultimate technique is [Ultranova Breath] with the energy output of Gamma Ray Burst.

- Compressing his CoA and CoC together by his Rubber techniques, Luffy fuse his Internal Destruction CoA and CoC Coating together into one, a new type of entirely white CoC Coating enveloping his body, creating G5 Mode [Hanu-Man], with signature technique [Conqueror's Internal Destruction].



- By doing this, Luffy has no more CoA as permanent effect. But his CoC becomes unique, no one else in history have it.

- Luffy disintegrates Kaidou's [Ultranova Breath] along with his kanabo - and as a unique effect of [Conqueror's Internal Destruction]: destroys Kaidou's Conqueror Haki permanently (along with his willpower) - with that single decisive attack.

- At the ending of the battle, Luffy is relieved but also melancholic upon finally taking the throne of The Strongest Living Being, the reward of his struggle but also massive burden of what the consequences of being WSC should mean for his nakama weighing on his shoulders.

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As the ending:

A. Kaidou and Luffy exchanges poetic dialogue about the past and future, and then Kaidou dies kneeling in front of the young king. (my hopium).

B. Kaidou, exhausted and destroyed beyond repair, attempts to escape from Luffy but terrorizes Wano once last time, changing into regular Dragon Form since he doesnt have enough power to go into Hybrid and his CoC is perma-destroyed.

But a silhouette come flying. Zoro uses CoC Coating to create a new Demon Spirit from overcoming death (Grim Reaper symbolism), and executes Kaidou with En-Ou Takemikazuchi (Thunder God Spirit)





C. Kaidou still lives after that and want to chase Luffy, and Luffy retorts with, "I'll dance with you anytime, Drunk. Rest for now in World Prison. But keep getting stronger." before snatching some valuable Wano secret alongside Strawhats and escaping away from WG.
 
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#27
imagine if in infinity war, Captain America magically became as strong as thanos simply by getting his ass beat. That's exactly what happened.

Yeah Kaido and Teach are powerful, Oda could have still handled this much better. He could have given Luffy most of his power ups before the fight so it wouldn't seem so forced. He could have had the other supernova/marco/yamato play a bigger role so that Luffy wouldn't need to 3 power ups after reaching onigashima.

Overpowered villains are a trope in fiction, most of the times they are handled better than what Oda did. Just look at DBZ. If i'm not mistaken, once Goku reaches namek, he only gets one power up to beat Freiza, that being super saiyan. Oda could have literally ripped that entire arc structure and it would have been better than what he did.
Any comic analogy is a bad comparison. There is countless, and I mean countless amounts of comics where there is characters who have a light-years worth of gap between them and their opponent, and they win without any power ups whatsoever.

As far as Dragon Ball is concerned, it's literally been the same formula for Goku, and every other character throughout the entire series. And not only that, but it is ridiculously unrealistic. Goku has a gap as big as the Universe between him and his opponent, and one single upgrade magically puts him on par with that person? Cmon man.... That's ridiculous. At least with this fight, it was completely realistic that Luffy needed a lot to help close the gap between him and Kaido. This isn't some shit where Kaido just gets weakened even more, and then Luffy swoops in to finish the job. Nobody in Wano is capable of consistently delivering that kind of damage to the man. Look what he has taken so far, and is still going. What's the Supernova, Marco, and Yamato all going to do, especially in their current conditions. They are all well past exhausted, cause they had other people to deal with. This is by far the best course of action Oda could have taken to make Kaido's defeat believable, outside of drastically nerfing the powerlevel of Kaido, and top tiers in general.
 
#29
This fight is so utter garbage. I cannot believe we waited so many years for this. You know, I respect Oda, but some of his writing decisions are just inexcusable.

Why have Luffy be defeated multiple times in a single battle, and then have him get a power up every single time he is defeated. This is literally kills all tension. Most fights in OP have a point of absolute low(where the villain is winning) and a point of absolute high(where the hero is winning). This is a common story structure.

Zoro gets his ass beat by king(1)
Zoro awakens ACoC and learns to control enma(2)
Zoro beats king(3)

But Oda basically shits on this by repeating step 1 and step 2 over and over to the point to where any new development in the fight has little to no impact because we've already seen it before. Every time kaido fucks up Luffy, there are no consequences and it only makes Luffy stronger, so why care? Why care when Luffy gets a power up as well because even after getting multiple power ups, Luffy has still been defeated?

Literally nothing that happens in this fight has any impact because Oda basically wrote himself into a corner with kaido. On one hand, he made kaido insanely powerful to where he could only really be defeated in a team battle with ample strategy and planning. On the other hand, Oda wants to end one piece soon so he wants Luffy to leave wano near PK level.
So instead of just keeping the rooftop 5 vs yonko fight ongoing, Oda decides to split everyone up and have Luffy 1v1 kaido by any means necessary.

Unless Oda has the balls to do something drastic(which I doubt), there's no saving this fight from being one of the absolute worst in OP.
You think this is even worse than Lanjino vs Queen?
 
#33
At least with this fight, it was completely realistic that Luffy needed a lot to help close the gap between him and Kaido. This isn't some shit where Kaido just gets weakened even more, and then Luffy swoops in to finish the job. Nobody in Wano is capable of consistently delivering that kind of damage to the man. Look what he has taken so far, and is still going. What's the Supernova, Marco, and Yamato all going to do, especially in their current conditions. They are all well past exhausted, cause they had other people to deal with. This is by far the best course of action Oda could have taken to make Kaido's defeat believable, outside of drastically nerfing the powerlevel of Kaido, and top tiers in general.
Oda could have easily found a way to make Luffy, as well as Kid and Law, stronger going into onigashima so that the execution of the yonko fights would have gone much better. He could have also had the gang come up with actual strategies to beat these emperors.

Rather, it seems like Oda would rather let plot do the heavy lifting against the emperors. Linlin punches a bomb and defeats herself, Luffy magically jumps 10 levels every time he is KO'd.
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Like I said, bring back rayleigh. Honestly, given that this is Luffy's time to surpass an emperor, I would have liked for Oda to bring back shanks. He, out of everyone, should have been the one to teach Luffy ACoC.
 
#39
One Piece has been taking itself way too seriously for years so imo this is the best way the fight could have gone
Not for Wano, maybe after with Usopp. This is zoro arc! This fight is refreshing in that sense, but Kaido will not have any of that; to get defeated in a cartoon setting... at least I hope not. I would be disappointed if I get zkk, but in cartoon form. kingufy
 
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