Chapter Discussion Luffy vs Kizaru is annoyingly vague

[sanjikun]

Honestly kind of an unfair assessment. Weve only had 3 pages between 2 chapters of actual fighting and One Piece villains arent the best examples of power progression.

You have someone like Enel who probably would have defeated Lucci stricly because of his powerset. You have Luffy being dumb as fuck against Moria and not using G2 or 3 when he could have way back then.

The only "real" sense of power progression came from Doflamingo -> Katakuri -> Kaido, because of how G4, then Haki (FS), then AdCoA/CoC and G5 played roles in each fight.

Now we are at a threshold again where enemies have strengths Kaido never had, and where Kaido isnt even going to comapre to some of them in the future. Kaido got whipped by G4 until he used FS once to counter it. Kizaru effortlessly countered it with his DF power alone (or so it seems).

Same will go for the others. Kaido cant melt faces and body parts off without Haki. He cant WiFi Conquerors Admirals like Shanks can. He cant completely nullify DF properties like Blackbeard (among other things). And who knows what Imu can do in the end. Its getting back to that pre-ts feeling of sideways progression like Croc, Enel and Lucci felt.

I literally agree with nothing you said. Crocodiles updated bounty is 2x higher than Katakuri, let alone Doffys which might be 3x time higher.

The only equivalency is

Doffy -> Kaido
Katakuri -> Kizaru

Where (1) is a raid boss taken down by Supernovas and Luffy finishes with a giant punch, while (2) is about speed and Luffy finishes with some super fast attack. But 1 > 2 clearly.

So Kizaru fight is just speed. Thats it. Cause Luffy has him beat in every other thing. But this is even worse than Kata, because Luffy was not > Katakuri like he clearly is here.

 

[Roo]

We know Luccis main attacks didn’t use haki as Lucci himself told luffy that if he wasn’t made of rubber his finger pistol would’ve killed him meaning there was no haki in that finger pistol.

Luccis tekkai may have been haki, but Lucci was unable to move while tekkai was active as such he still would not be able to hurt enel.

Rokuogan is likely a form of internal haki

the rest is weird, but imo it’s obvious that CP9 are supposed to be haki specialist after the fact. I mean during EL Lucci’s name was infamous amongst VAs and it was later stated that they all have haki

 

[mly90]

It's mid because Kiz was never supposed to be Goofy fight only reason Loda is forcing it is because his obsession to have his mc accomplish everything first.

 

[MonsterKaido]

6th databook is....what lol? Red, Blue, Yellow, Green, Blue Deep. Thats 5. The 6th is Vivre cards which specifically mention they all have it and makes no allusion to it being pre-TS. At that point we knew Lucci and Kaku were CP0.

You literally see Luffy react differently for the first time ever to CoA when it is first shown lol:

And he quite literally asks again "how" he got hurt with the Boa sisters.:

He didnt retcon anything about Rokushiki, its this shitty fanbase taking vivre cards to mean anything but what it implies currently lmao

Databooks are also not accurate always.

Post automatically merged: Sep 14, 2023

It's mid because Kiz was never supposed to be Goofy fight only reason Loda is forcing it is because his obsession to have his mc accomplish everything first.

Do you think zoro vs Kizaru will happen?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Rokuogan is likely a form of internal haki

the rest is weird, but imo it’s obvious that CP9 are supposed to be haki specialist after the fact. I mean during EL Lucci’s name was infamous amongst VAs and it was later stated that they all have haki

We’ve also seen haki specialists lose to non haki users in the manga multiple times, just because he’s infamous among people with haki doesn’t mean lucci had powerful haki.

Pre timeskip, sure tekkai may have been a form of CoA; but only Jabra could actually use tekkai offensively, everyone else could only use it defensively.

Rokuogan May have haki in it; but that’s only one technique and lucci definitely won’t be able to defeat enel with just that.

 

[mly90]

Do you think zoro vs Kizaru will happen?

Only if his fight with goofy doesn't have a conclusion or gets interrupted it can happen. If he falls on egghead then this will be the end of kizaru imo

 

[Roo]

We’ve also seen haki specialists lose to non haki users in the manga multiple times, just because he’s infamous among people with haki doesn’t mean lucci had powerful haki.

Pre timeskip, sure tekkai may have been a form of CoA; but only Jabra could actually use tekkai offensively, everyone else could only use it defensively.

Rokuogan May have haki in it; but that’s only one technique and lucci definitely won’t be able to defeat enel with just that.

If it’s a retcon like I mentioned, it doesn’t matter what he showed in EL anyways. Retcon means information in the present changes the past.

Think of Dragon Ball. If Goku was said to be a human in the beginning part of the story it really doesn’t matter, it gets overruled later on

 

[Sir Yasheen]

If it’s a retcon like I mentioned, it doesn’t matter what he showed in EL anyways. Retcon means information in the present changes the past.

Think of Dragon Ball. If Goku was said to be a human in the beginning part of the story it really doesn’t matter, it gets overruled later on

That’s incredibly different as lucci himself said luffy being rubber saved his life from his attack; which means at the time Luccis attacks could not use haki.

Retcons can make tekkai coa, as that doesn’t change the events of Ennies lobby. just like Goku being a saiyan does not change the events of Dragon Ball.

 

[Roo]

That’s incredibly different as lucci himself said luffy being rubber saved his life from his attack; which means at the time Luccis attacks could not use haki.

Retcons can make tekkai coa, as that doesn’t change the events of Ennies lobby. just like Goku being a saiyan does not change the events of Dragon Ball.

But retcons do usually rewrite the story. I mentioned the dragon ball example because it’s easy to understand. But in the story it was never stated that Goku was a human.

Here’s an actual example that happened. In Naruto it was stated early that the 4th Mizukage created the “bloody mist”, but it was later retconned to have been a practice that was going on before Yagura. Whatever was stated in that past was overruled by most recent information

 

[Paperchampion23]

being pedantic about the databooks is weak, we all know what we mean when saying databooks. Relax a little bit

If not pre ts when? They literally listed out ALL CP9 members. Not just Lucci and Kaku

Im not being "pedantic" about it. The databook actually matters because 4 of 6 pre-date the concept of Armament Haki lmao

Databook 6 are the vivre cards and exist solely post TS right before Wano. If Lucci and Kaku both got stronger, are the rest not supposed to be in CP0 as haki users?

Literally nothing has been confirmed to be pre-TS, you are just applying headcanon to rokushiki lmao.

React differently? He literally reacted like he’s never been hit before against the Boa sisters and we know he has 💀

And didnt to Lucci. Holy shit Roo read.

He clearly did LMAO


but hey if you want to keep coping go ahead. It’s not like anybody can’t just read this page and not realize what’s going on

Tekkai isnt CoA lmfao, cope.

Post automatically merged: Sep 14, 2023

I literally agree with nothing you said.

Post automatically merged: Sep 14, 2023

It's mid because Kiz was never supposed to be Goofy fight only reason Loda is forcing it is because his obsession to have his mc accomplish everything first.

@mly90 nonsense, i was predicting Kizaru being a luffy fight for 2 years and everyone laughed in my face because "its after Kaido no way".

Statements like this make no sense. Its the authors manga, evidently there was always a plan to have them fight lmao

 

[Sir Yasheen]

But retcons do usually rewrite the story. I mentioned the dragon ball example because it’s easy to understand. But in the story it was never stated that Goku was a human.

Here’s an actual example that happened. In Naruto it was stated early that the 4th Mizukage created the “bloody mist”, but it was later retconned to have been a practice that was going on before Yagura. Whatever was stated in that past was overruled by most recent information

And in the end none of that changed what canonically happened in the plot. The Bloody Mist thing could just be false intel, but in the end it still existed and regardless of who created it, the story doesn’t change.

Lucci having offensive haki does as he canonically stated that luffy only survived an attack from him because Luffy was a rubber man.

A retcon changes some minor details without changing the plot. Luffy eating the Nika fruit or the gum gum fruit doesn’t change the plot, lucci suddnely being able to coat attacks in haki does change the plot.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Again, i feel like I need to point out that Luffy vs. Kizaru has literally only 3 pages of fighting lmao. Luffy's fights always last closer to 80-100 pages of dedicated fighting. We are waaaaay to early to be having this conversation.

 

[Dragon777]

Feel like this criticism should come in a few chapters or at the end of the arc. We dont even know if this is the "real" fight yet and if it is, how long itll actually last. We all know Oda can get into buances with Haki. Both Katakuri and Kaido both went into it pretty deeply.

So far there are like 2 pages of fighting at most between these 2 characters lol....

Exactly.

We had like...two panels worth of fight lol. How can this be enough?

We'll see in a few chapters.

Post automatically merged: Sep 14, 2023

It was clear once Luffy beat Kaido, Oda would have to pull punches.

Lol

 

[Albino 👑]

Again, i feel like I need to point out that Luffy vs. Kizaru has literally only 3 pages of fighting lmao. Luffy's fights always last closer to 80-100 pages of dedicated fighting. We are waaaaay to early to be having this conversation.

While yeah it’s only 3 pages and the fight is sure to get more exciting what we got so far is still confusing and annoying imo
Luffy going through all his gears off panel and seemingly not using any advanced form of haki but we can’t be too sure is frustrating

Like I’m excited to see more of g5 but not at the expense of feeling like we’re missing out on cool action from luffy using his other gears

It also doesn’t fully help Kizaru either imo

 

[Paperchampion23]

While yeah it’s only 3 pages and the fight is sure to get more exciting what we got so far is still confusing and annoying imo
Luffy going through all his gears off panel and seemingly not using any advanced form of haki but we can’t be too sure is frustrating

Like I’m excited to see more of g5 but not at the expense of feeling like we’re missing out on cool action from luffy using his other gears

It also doesn’t fully help Kizaru either imo

Id say have faith. Im almost sure that this is a "first round" type of deal. Take a look at the last 2 fights Luffy has had as an example:

- He went G4 pretty early with Katakuri, where eventually he lost that clash and had to run away. After that point it was back to fighting in base form for a good while

- Kaido is all over the place. A few hits in base (Roc moves are G2/G3 combined), then G4, then back to base for AdCoC, then a break in the fight. Then Snakeman for one move with Yamato. Then base for over 10 chapters with constant AdCoC attacks vs Kaido. Then both G4 forms. Then loss again. Then G5 for 6 more chapters lol.


Have patience. I fully expect Oda to go back to base fighting at some point to put Luffy at a disadvantage

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

Do you think zoro vs Kizaru will happen?

Luffy would have to lose
Zoro would have to one shot Lucci

Zoro one tapping Lucci is more believable than Luffy losing this, so nah. The dream is dead imo.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Luffy would have to lose
Zoro would have to one shot Lucci

Zoro one tapping Lucci is more believable than Luffy losing this, so nah. The dream is dead imo.

Even if he lost, the manga has never painted a scenario where Zoro had "taken over" a fight from Luffy completely. Luffy would just get back up and win

 

[JoNdule]

I literally agree with nothing you said. Crocodiles updated bounty is 2x higher than Katakuri, let alone Doffys which might be 3x time higher.

The only equivalency is

Doffy -> Kaido
Katakuri -> Kizaru

Where (1) is a raid boss taken down by Supernovas and Luffy finishes with a giant punch, while (2) is about speed and Luffy finishes with some super fast attack. But 1 > 2 clearly.

So Kizaru fight is just speed. Thats it. Cause Luffy has him beat in every other thing. But this is even worse than Kata, because Luffy was not > Katakuri like he clearly is here.

Except doffy is below katakuri
Nice tr
Doffy wasnt no raid boss

 

[Paperchampion23]

I literally agree with nothing you said. Crocodiles updated bounty is 2x higher than Katakuri, let alone Doffys which might be 3x time higher.

The only equivalency is

Doffy -> Kaido
Katakuri -> Kizaru

Where (1) is a raid boss taken down by Supernovas and Luffy finishes with a giant punch, while (2) is about speed and Luffy finishes with some super fast attack. But 1 > 2 clearly.

So Kizaru fight is just speed. Thats it. Cause Luffy has him beat in every other thing. But this is even worse than Kata, because Luffy was not > Katakuri like he clearly is here.

Except doffy is below katakuri
Nice tr
Doffy wasnt no raid boss

 

[L57]

Zoro vs lucci gonna be a better fight