Current Events Luffy Was Objectively More Afraid of Kizaru Than He Was Of Imu

[ZenZu]

I get where you coming from but doesnt make sense to me. Oda is clearly not finished with Kizarus character yet and he went out way in the SBS to even make to the iliterate crowd that he was not defeated.
I do not think he would go that much extra while if he is not gonna make a all of fight of him but we will see i guess.

I never really saw the Admirals as essential obstacles to overcome for the plot to move forward, more like near untouchable monsters that Oda brings in sparingly for impact. Akainu is the only Admiral who has to be overcome imo, really the only reason we discuss the others is because they come as part of a package deal.

I can see Kizaru still lingering around, displaying some power but never actually defeated in battle. Heck even Fujitora doesn't have defeat written on him. Really only Akainu is a guarantee, then Greenbull, but that would make Fuji the odd man out when he's part of that duo, so that's why it's my order of confidence. Kizaru is sort of just there to be this invincible character imo, he doesn't necessarily strike me as someone getting an all out showcase where he is giving it his all and falling, lowkey doesn't even suit his personality.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 5:48 AM

We won't see fuji going all out.


He would probably end up on SHs side.


I am positive that only admiral who would get portrayed like an absolute monster is Akainu as he would face Luffy.

Second, is GB as Zoro vs GB is likely to happen as well.

The issue with this setup is it is very unlikely for Zoro to full out defeat someone of a similar caliber as Luffy, and Sanji doesn't get to join.

It's usually Zoro and Sanji's major opponents are comparable while Luffy fights someone well clear of them. The Admirals are just an odd bunch to squeeze into this, they don't fit any of the molds. I do think if Zoro is fighting one, then Sanji will be involved as well.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

I never really saw the Admirals as essential obstacles to overcome for the plot to move forward, more like near untouchable monsters that Oda brings in sparingly for impact. Akainu is the only Admiral who has to be overcome imo, really the only reason we discuss the others is because they come as part of a package deal.

I can see Kizaru still lingering around, displaying some power but never actually defeated in battle. Heck even Fujitora doesn't have defeat written on him. Really only Akainu is a guarantee, then Greenbull, but that would make Fuji the odd man out when he's part of that duo, so that's why it's my order of confidence. Kizaru is sort of just there to be this invincible character imo, he doesn't necessarily strike me as someone getting an all out showcase where he is giving it his all and falling, lowkey doesn't even suit his personality.

Kizaru's probably gonna lose to Sanji in the future. It's literally a match made in heaven, powerful speedster who primarily fights by kicking vs powerful speedster who primarily fights by kicking. Oda would be smoking raw meth not to do it lol.

 

[ZenZu]

Kizaru's probably gonna lose to Sanji in the future. It's literally a match made in heaven, powerful speedster who primarily fights by kicking vs powerful speedster who primarily fights by kicking. Oda would be smoking raw meth not to do it lol.

I think Kizaru and Akainu are too close in power for this to happen when Luffy gets to fight Akainu, so if this scenario does happen, either Luffy does not finish Akainu, or the Kizaru fight happens at a time separate from the Luffy Akainu battle, which would be odd.

 

[kekaro]

@ZenZu maybe we fundementaly disagree on this than
Oda is too much of battle shounen head to not do that imo. Like look how we much we even seeing from the HKs who dont even have main opponents vibes.
Final arc will be onigashima on sterioids we will see the full kit of everyone and the best fight will also have a character angle to it like it always does in one piece

This applies to fuji to btw. i do not buy the fuji is actually a "good guy" and will not fight.
People that think Aramaki is giga evil and will be fought 100% on the opposite forgot how collegial Fuji was with Aramaki even enjoying his company. That doesnt add up to me

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

I think Kizaru and Akainu are too close in power for this to happen when Luffy gets to fight Akainu, so if this scenario does happen, either Luffy does not finish Akainu, or the Kizaru fight happens at a time separate from the Luffy Akainu battle, which would be odd.

Ignoring the fact that Kizaru and Akainu are just, yknow, completely different fighters, there's also the fact that Akainu is likely considerably stronger than him given he's awakened and might even have ACoC.

 

[Reborn]

I never really saw the Admirals as essential obstacles to overcome for the plot to move forward, more like near untouchable monsters that Oda brings in sparingly for impact. Akainu is the only Admiral who has to be overcome imo, really the only reason we discuss the others is because they come as part of a package deal.

I can see Kizaru still lingering around, displaying some power but never actually defeated in battle. Heck even Fujitora doesn't have defeat written on him. Really only Akainu is a guarantee, then Greenbull, but that would make Fuji the odd man out when he's part of that duo, so that's why it's my order of confidence. Kizaru is sort of just there to be this invincible character imo, he doesn't necessarily strike me as someone getting an all out showcase where he is giving it his all and falling, lowkey doesn't even suit his personality.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 5:48 AM

The issue with this setup is it is very unlikely for Zoro to full out defeat someone of a similar caliber as Luffy, and Sanji doesn't get to join.

It's usually Zoro and Sanji's major opponents are comparable while Luffy fights someone well clear of them. The Admirals are just an odd bunch to squeeze into this, they don't fit any of the molds. I do think if Zoro is fighting one, then Sanji will be involved as well.

I don't think GB or any other admiral is on the level of Akainu.


To me, Akainu enjoys a higher and well defined monster portrayal which no other admiral does. His aura as far as navy is concerned, is unmatched.

Akainu is just build different than the rest.

So, Zoro vs GB doesn't necessarily come across as Zoro is fighting an opponent of similar calibre who Luffy would face.


Sanji? It's not necessary for Sanji to fight an admiral. He can fight Kiz or someone from HK whom oda can portray as someone who's so strong that he's qualified to be an admiral.

Fuji just doesn't cut the deal for me to fight any SHs.

 

[ZenZu]

@ZenZu maybe we fundementaly disagree on this than
Oda is too much of battle shounen head to not do that imo. Like look how we much we even seeing from the HKs who dont even have main opponents vibes.

We do, something about the Admirals is off. They are the Yonkou counterparts in the Navy world, but I always felt like they were just homages for the real life actors, characters like Aokiji, Kizaru, Fujitora can get away with never falling. And the issue is they are quite literally too strong to not be central antagonists. Characters like HKs, Oda has no problems just willy nilly showcasing, he's way too careful with the Admirals, he's always been walking on eggshells when it comes to their screentime. What with Kizaru and Kuzan's character arcs, it's even harder to see them play this villain going all out role. That's usually for villains to take. Admirals have always been character's doing their duty, it's the combination of that and them being juggernauts which leads to issues for Oda. If they were pure villains, or weak enough then it wouldn't be an issue. This creates a unique bubble for them where I can legitimately see a few of them just go untouched.

But I more or less agree on Fujitora, the reason being he comes in a package with Greenbull, it would be very odd for Greenbull to get to have a full on battle, while Fujitora just sandbags the rest of the way. Akainu is a given.

I don't think GB or any other admiral is on the level of Akainu.

Nah I have to disagree here, Aokiji vs Akainu says otherwise to me. Maybe Greenbull and Fujitora aren't quite up to the billing, this remains to be seen (although the Admiral title comes with a lot of powerlevel weight) but the C3 were as closely knit as top tiers could get.

This is the reason why I think Oda nerfed Kizaru to the ground and still had him stalemate and feed G5. He does not want to spoil Akainu vs Luffy.

 

[kekaro]

I don't think GB or any other admiral is on the level of Akainu.


To me, Akainu enjoys a higher and well defined monster portrayal which no other admiral does. His aura as far as navy is concerned, is unmatched.

Akainu is just build different than the rest.

So, Zoro vs GB doesn't necessarily come across as Zoro is fighting an opponent of similar calibre who Luffy would face.


Sanji? It's not necessary for Sanji to fight an admiral. He can fight Kiz or someone from HK whom oda can portray as someone who's so strong that he's qualified to be an admiral.

Fuji just doesn't cut the deal for me to fight any SHs.

The admirals are clearly the same tier thats one of zenzus take i agree with. Yes obviously one is stronger than other at the end of the day but by a miniscule amount imo.
Like yes Akainu has that dog in him but thats more of because his character.
I dont know how long you reading weekly but the community potrayal take was Akainu > Kizaru > Kuzan by a wide margin just than Kuzan getting "more potrayal" getting ex diff from akainu in 10 days for that "argument" to be upended after marineford vs after timeskip


Even that scene at the end off egghead clearly show that Akainu see Kizaru as his equal and vice versa, its clearly not a subordinate relationship even if he has a higher rank now

 

[Reborn]

We do, something about the Admirals is off. They are the Yonkou counterparts in the Navy world, but I always felt like they were just homages for the real life actors, characters like Aokiji, Kizaru, Fujitora can get away with never falling. And the issue is they are quite literally too strong to not be central antagonists. Characters like HKs, Oda has no problems just willy nilly showcasing, he's way too careful with the Admirals, he's always been walking on eggshells when it comes to their screentime. What with Kizaru and Kuzan's character arcs, it's even harder to see them play this villain going all out role. That's usually for villains to take. Admirals have always been character's doing their duty, it's the combination of that and them being juggernauts which leads to issues for Oda. If they were pure villains, or weak enough then it wouldn't be an issue. This creates a unique bubble for them where I can legitimately see a few of them just go untouched.

But I more or less agree on Fujitora, the reason being he comes in a package with Greenbull, it would be very odd for Greenbull to get to have a full on battle, while Fujitora just sandbags the rest of the way. Akainu is a given.



Nah I have to disagree here, Aokiji vs Akainu says otherwise to me. Maybe Greenbull and Fujitora aren't quite up to the billing, this remains to be seen (although the Admiral title comes with a lot of powerlevel weight) but the C3 were as closely knit as top tiers could get.

This is the reason why I think Oda nerfed Kizaru to the ground and still had him stalemate and feed G5. He does not want to spoil Akainu vs Luffy.

C3 relevance doesn't hold to me anymore.

Despite their portrayal of equal footing, it was only Kuzan and Akainu who got pushed for FA.

Narratively, that's oda trying to distinguish them as "elite of the elites."

And, after that fight during PH, I feel Akainu got stronger.

For two simple reasons
1) Haki blooms in such intense battles - and, with PH climate showing signs of Logia awakening, imo, Akainu definitely got stronger


2) He will face Luffy - not current one, but a stronger future version.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 6:10 AM

The admirals are clearly the same tier thats one of zenzus take i agree with. Yes obviously one is stronger than other at the end of the day but by a miniscule amount imo.
Like yes Akainu has that dog in him but thats more of because his character.
I dont know how long you reading weekly but the community potrayal take was Akainu > Kizaru > Kuzan by a wide margin just than Kuzan getting "more potrayal" getting ex diff from akainu in 10 days for that "argument" to be upended after marineford vs after timeskip


Even that scene at the end off egghead clearly show that Akainu see Kizaru as his equal and vice versa, its clearly not a subordinate relationship even if he has a higher rank now

Holding someone as equal and not as subordinate doesn't imply they have equal strength. SHs are prime example of this scenario.

 

[kekaro]

Holding someone as equal and not as subordinate doesn't imply they have equal strength. SHs are prime example of this scenario.

The Marine organzation is not the SHcrew
Luffy is not Akainu
Akainu melted a guy for desertion.

Major cap comparison

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

C3 relevance doesn't hold to me anymore.

Despite their portrayal of equal footing, it was only Kuzan and Akainu who got pushed for FA.

Narratively, that's oda trying to distinguish them as "elite of the elites."

And, after that fight during PH, I feel Akainu got stronger.

For two simple reasons
1) Haki blooms in such intense battles - and, with PH climate showing signs of Logia awakening, imo, Akainu definitely got stronger


2) He will face Luffy - not current one, but a stronger future version.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 6:10 AM

Holding someone as equal and not as subordinate doesn't imply they have equal strength. SHs are prime example of this scenario.

Also he never said he was his equal iirc, he just called him his brother, which is the same as Whitebeard calling Oden a brother. Haven't seen anyone say Whitebeard ~ Oden (besides Nik who's.. a different case..)

 

[ZenZu]

C3 relevance doesn't hold to me anymore.

Despite their portrayal of equal footing, it was only Kuzan and Akainu who got pushed for FA.

Narratively, that's oda trying to distinguish them as "elite of the elites."

And, after that fight during PH, I feel Akainu got stronger.

For two simple reasons
1) Haki blooms in such intense battles - and, with PH climate showing signs of Logia awakening, imo, Akainu definitely got stronger


2) He will face Luffy - not current one, but a stronger future version.

This won't matter much because we won't get to see Aokiji or Kizaru go all out imo. We can just more or less scale them based off Akainu's showing. Akainu vs Luffy will shed light on the Punk Hazard fight itself.

If they get to go all out, then it would be fair to say Akainu is far superior, but that won't be the case I'm quite confident after Egghead, if Kizaru was meant to be significantly weaker than Akainu, then Oda would have no issues with him simply losing to Luffy and then transitioning to Akainu as natural progression, instead he hit Kizaru with tons of nerfs to shackle him down and still have him feed Luffy.

This tells me Oda does not believe there is a big enough gap for the progression to go Kizaru --> Akainu, if you're defeating one, you might as well be defeating the other from an MC standpoint. The fact that even as a Yonkou, Luffy wasn't actually ready for Kizaru, tells me Oda is still serious about Luffy vs Akainu and that the C3 indeed are close in power.

 

[Reborn]

The Marine organzation is not the SHcrew
Luffy is not Akainu
Akainu melted a guy for desertion.

Major cap comparison

So?

Treating someone like that doesn't mean they are equal in strength. It could be out of brotherly sentiments or bond especially when we know they are part of workforce for a quite time.

 

[kekaro]

So?

Treating someone like that doesn't mean they are equal in strength. It could be out of brotherly sentiments or bond especially when we know they are part of workforce for a quite time.

I think its very obvious to me that oda highlights that cause there is a soft structure in power even in such a military organzation led by iron grip
If you dont see that way, fine, but do not compare it to stuff like SHs

 

[Reborn]

This won't matter much because we won't get to see Aokiji or Kizaru go all out imo. We can just more or less scale them based off Akainu's showing. Akainu vs Luffy will shed light on the Punk Hazard fight itself.

If they get to go all out, then it would be fair to say Akainu is far superior, but that won't be the case I'm quite confident after Egghead, if Kizaru was meant to be significantly weaker than Akainu, then Oda would have no issues with him simply losing to Luffy and then transitioning to Akainu as natural progression, instead he hit Kizaru with tons of nerfs to shackle him down and still have him feed Luffy.

This tells me Oda does not believe there is a big enough gap for the progression to go Kizaru --> Akainu, if you're defeating one, you might as well be defeating the other from an MC standpoint. The fact that even as a Yonkou, Luffy wasn't actually ready for Kizaru, tells me Oda is still serious about Luffy vs Akainu and that the C3 indeed are close in power.

To me, it simply means, oda was holding kizaru because egghead was meant for him to undergo a character development, and not necessarily a power showdown.

The biggest theme around kiz is his unclear justice and to me, egghead was meant to resolve this and his emotional conflicts.


I can guarantee you - kiz in future will get portrayed with new justice theme.

 

[ZenZu]

To me, it simply means, oda was holding kizaru because egghead was meant for him to undergo a character development, and not necessarily a power showdown.

The biggest theme around kiz is his unclear justice and to me, egghead was meant to resolve this and his emotional conflicts.


I can guarantee you - kiz in future will get portrayed with new justice theme.

Yea but it would be very easy to fit in an arc fight like Luffy vs Katakuri if Oda really believed in the natural progression of Kizaru --> Akainu. He left things super ambiguous on Egghead on Kizaru's exact lvl but what we do know his floor is around Luffy's. Just like with the Yonkou, Luffy is not gonna go around defeating all the Admirals, he just needs to defeat the strongest of the bunch (which was built up to be Kaidou for the Yonkou), and that statement will be made with Akainu. Until Akainu makes his move no Admirals, and especially the C3 are gonna be restrained. The reality is Admirals are Yonkou captain counterparts, that is why there are always 4 of them around at the same time, you simply can't look at them with the same lens as a traditional pirate crew. It doesn't work.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Idk why people are still doing this dated argument of "Oh, Oda stopped Kizaru from being defeated or going all out at Egghead, so that means he was simply too strong for Luffy at the time!". We know this isn't true because Oda was literally holding Luffy back too. It's not just shit like him not using ACoC, but he also somehow couldn't just pump his heart back up with the Drums of Liberation like he did in Wano, which makes no sense because it's very clear that Kizaru didn't exhaust him as much as Kaido did. With Kizaru, all the damage that Luffy had before and during the fight was the laser barrier damage (something we see get outdone by Kaido's Zoan Boro Breath anyway), and then the light clone grazing his cheek with a sword. That is not nearly enough to make Luffy completely unable to get back up and fight. It's painfully obvious that Luffy was being held back because Oda didn't want him to get up and ruin Saturn's entrance. He had to present Saturn as an unknown and scary force that was capable of beating Sanji, Franky and Bonney without much trouble. Luffy getting up and fighting him ruins that quickly. That's also the reason Zoro was locked down playing patty cakes with Lucci for like a hour when we know that he could have won off the rip if he put a little more effort in (seeing as the one named attack we saw him use immediately ended the fight).

 

[Shanal]

Unironically it might be PTSD lmao

 

[Bad English]

Unironically it might be PTSD lmao

He didn't knew that was Kizaru, Loffy just felt strong haki

 

[Reborn]

Yea but it would be very easy to fit in an arc fight like Luffy vs Katakuri if Oda really believed in the natural progression of Kizaru --> Akainu. He left things super ambiguous on Egghead on Kizaru's exact lvl but what we do know his floor is around Luffy's. Just like with the Yonkou, Luffy is not gonna go around defeating all the Admirals, he just needs to defeat the strongest of the bunch (which was built up to be Kaidou for the Yonkou), and that statement will be made with Akainu. Until Akainu makes his move no Admirals, and especially the C3 are gonna be restrained. The reality is Admirals are Yonkou captain counterparts, that is why there are always 4 of them around at the same time, you simply can't look at them with the same lens as a traditional pirate crew. It doesn't work.

I am not looking at them with same lens. Infact, I believe C3 are special and oda is choosing paths for them.

Kuzan end up being a pirate.

Akainu as strongest marine

Kiz - he will see his justice getting redefined. And, if I have to make a wild guess, then I won't be surprised if we see kiz as revolutionary in future. Not certain but a wild guess.

And, that's why will never see our normal progression "from Kata to Kaido" because kiz isn't Kata. He has some higher relevance in the story. Oda set him up through character development arc and tried to portray him in a way that doesn't dent his hype in future as well.

My argument is that relevance doesn't necessarily implies strength. It's a factor but more than power it's about narrative significance.

Egghead - as progressed, oda switched from kiz as threat to Elders as threat - from kiz being determined to do his duty to having mental breakdown and emotional conflicts.

This narrative progression speaks more volume than simple - power level spectrum.