Questions & Mysteries M3 - Shattered ... ? ?

[Monkey D Theories]

Could you provide any manga panel that backs this claim? coz I can't remember any panel that suggested this. One could claim that Oden was stronger than both Rayleigh and Gaban but Oden being on par with Ray but stronger than Gaban?

Both Oden and Rayleigh were the firstmates of a pirate king-level captain. Oden was Whitebeard's firstmate whereas Rayleigh was Roger's.
It doesn't make sense for Scopper to be stronger than Oden if the whitebeard pirates were near equals with the roger pirates.

From Oden's portrayal, you honestly could say that he was stronger than rayleigh, but we didn't see much from rayleigh so I just like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that Oden and rayleigh were equals.

Post automatically merged: Jul 25, 2020

Also yamato defo being stronger than Sanji post-wano is such a ridiculous claim. Right now the Tobi Roppo have been tasked to capture Yamato. Again "The Tobi Roppo"~!, not the calamities, so how is a character that Kaidou deems to be capable of being handled by the Tobi Roppo defo stronger than Post-Wano Sanji? A character that isn't even confirmed to be Calamity level as of yet?

The most ironic thing about this is that the same Tobi Roppo that have been tasked to capture Yamato have failed to capture current Sanji on at least two occasions.

Do you seriously think that sanji is so strong that he could go up against all the tobi roppo at once? The man got smashed by Drake's full zoan transformation. There's honestly no evidence to put Sanji above Who's Who's level.

Yamato temporarily knocked out ulti, which is better portrayal against a tobi roppo than anything sanji ever showed.

Post automatically merged: Jul 25, 2020

also the fact that Kaido sent out all of the tobi roppo, not just one or two, to get yamato and the fact that beating yamato would have allowed a tobi roppo to challenge a calamity, indicates that yamato likely is calamity level. Especially when you take into consideration his portrayal against G2+G3 Luffy and Ulti.

Overall, Yamato has more portrayal in his favor to being a YC level than sanji does

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Both Oden and Rayleigh were the firstmates of a pirate king-level captain. Oden was Whitebeard's firstmate whereas Rayleigh was Roger's.
It doesn't make sense for Scopper to be stronger than Oden if the whitebeard pirates were near equals with the roger pirates.

From Oden's portrayal, you honestly could say that he was stronger than rayleigh, but we didn't see much from rayleigh so I just like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that Oden and rayleigh were equals.

In that case might as well scale Teen Marco, Teen Teach, Teen Jozu, Teen Vista etc. to the veteran members of the Roger Pirates ^^" as some of them IIRC were WB's commanders. Roger & WB where equal hence their crew have to be equivalent to each other is headcanon as far as I'm concerned and the mere fact that the Roger pirates could afford to have both Ray & Scopper square up against Oden completely shatters that narrative. That said, putting aside the whole Oden was WB's strongest commander ting (btw, calling Oden WB's first mate is wrong, Marco was WB's first mate) Oden was a very special existence, one powerful enough that both Ray & Scopper decided to tag team him so one could make an argument for him being stronger than Ray & Scopper. However, given his performance against Roger and the fact that he technically lost to a young Kaidou (albeit with extenuating circumstances), I'm hesitant to put him above Ray & even Scopper and just assume all of them are on the same level who wins would probably depend on their abilities. That said however, Rayleigh did not get better portrayal than Scopper did against Oden and even after that clash, both were both seen leading the Roger Pirates together.

Do you seriously think that sanji is so strong that he could go up against all the tobi roppo at once? The man got smashed by Drake's full zoan transformation. There's honestly no evidence to put Sanji above Who's Who's level.

Yamato temporarily knocked out ulti, which is better portrayal against a tobi roppo than anything sanji ever showed.

also the fact that Kaido sent out all of the tobi roppo, not just one or two, to get yamato and the fact that beating yamato would have allowed a tobi roppo to challenge a calamity, indicates that yamato likely is calamity level. Especially when you take into consideration his portrayal against G2+G3 Luffy and Ulti.

Overall, Yamato has more portrayal in his favor to being a YC level than sanji does

This dude what kinda argument is this. The Tobi Roppo are competing to capture Yamato not teaming up to capture her and I'm very sure you are aware of this and just being dishonest cause it is blatantly obvious so no, Yamato is not strong enough to require all of the Tobi Roppo tag team to capture her.

Yamato took Ulti off guard with a friggin Thunder Bagua, the same technique that Kaidou used to take Luffy out in one shot and she tanked that shit but yh Sanji who had superior portrayal in his fight against Page One without using any of his higher end techniques is defo inferior to her and cannot be argued to be YC level

 

[Pirate hunter eddy]

His notoriety comes from his strength so it doesn't change the main point. It is portrayal hence a plus for him. Jack does not have superior portrayal to Jinbei.

There really aren't. Luffy wasn't pushed all out in FI nor in PH. It is only in DR that he went all out hence there is no difference which can be ascertained in endurance for Luffy between FI and DR. If you have an instance, you can provide it.
Jinbei has hardly had any match since FI so I don't know what else you want him to show.

It is though. Barrier haki isn't about using strength as hyogoro was even able to protect himself. Luffy's projection failed so there was nothing providing resistance.

That's not the point though. The guard point gives him a superior defense to Sanji. Gedatsu had the jet dial though which gave him penetrating power but even that, the guard point reduced the damage. Compare to Sanji who got knocked by the impact dial. Also you didn't address the comparison, would Sanji if placed in the same situation as Chopper v BM take no damage from the slap?
Brook moved in the air when he blitzed BM


The attack's AP isn't that high. The fact that Law effectively blocked it with just haki is enough proof. Also it is below athlete thread which Luffy with haki couldn't effectively block.
We are talking about endurance though. Jinbei took Akainu's manga punches and was still moving whiles Sanji was stunned by five colored strings and about to be defeated with Overheat.

Yes I agree that there is a difference in strength. However, the comparison being made is the full health BM throwing Zeus being blocked by an attack of both Luffy and Sanji ... with Jinbei effectively blocking with just haki and holding ground for a while vs weakened BM using a named attack

I agree but again all that tells us is that he is supposed to be strong it says nothing about how strong he is in relation to Sanji and that's my point. It a vague statement that doesn't give us anything other than he is strong. A requirement of being a warlord is not being stronger than Sanji. He definitely does having a bounty of 1 billion, being so strong that the Luffy was surprised that even someone as strong as Inu couldn't defeat him despite him only being an underling, Being equal with the dukes while they where taking turns to rest while he was constantly fighting, them not believing even he'd be killed even if his opponents where two admirals his portrayal definitely exceeds that of Jinbe.

Alright fair enough.

He wasn't but he would have died if he did not get a blood transfusion not so? That puts a cap on Luffy's endurance in FI he then went on to take far more damage later on which was incomparable to what he dealt with is FI. Again even if you want to imply that his endurance remains the same it would not invalidate the point I'm making. The point I'm making is what Luffy went through is far worse than what he did in FI so you have reason to believe that it sheds light on what Luffy's new limitations are. The same cannot be said for Jinbe(Other than his Haki).

That is not true it gives him better defense relative to his normal state that is it. It giving him better defense than Sanji specifically is plain conjecture. When was a jet dial stated to be better than an impact dial? A jet dial is simply a stronger version of a breath dial while an impact dial is able to absorb kinetic energy even explosions meaning and impact dial would absorb the force. If Chopper could come out without damage I don't see why Sanji would take damage from that attack specifically. No he didn't he is literally shown in one spot in multiple panels.

Again blocking an attack and taking an attack cleanly are two different things. Law blocked the attack so he minimized the damage Sanji didn't have a guard up what so ever. Also I recall Luffy blocking it but getting sent flying without damage but was then held down by Trebol.

The magma punch hit he hand not his body and even then his hand was completely burned. Also we do not know if Sanji would have been done in by Overheat and even then I don't recall overheat ever being landed cleanly on anyone so that's not really all that bad.

Sure that's the comparison I think both have their own strengths. I don't believe Sanji could block the attack unscathed but I believe he can block it if we see his hardening and that why I'd say that Sanji has the strength to block it not so much the haki to come out of it with the same result Jinbe did.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Imagine thinking Jinbei or Yamato is stronger than Sanji

Apparently people forget what happen in 2005

 

[Finalbeta]

Imagine thinking Jinbei or Yamato is stronger than Sanji

Apparently people forget what happen in 2005

But Yamato was overpowering Ulti quite badly, Sanji never did that with PO

Ulti herself has better hype and showings than PO not to mention

So it's certain she is more potent

 

[Pirate hunter eddy]

But Yamato was overpowering Ulti quite badly, Sanji never did that with PO

Ulti himself has better hype and showings than PO not to mention

So it's certain she is more potent

When did this happend?

How does Ulti have better hype than P1?

 

[Finalbeta]

When did this happend?

How does Ulti have better hype than P1?

For her clash with Luffy

Considering that Luffy is an advanced CoA user now

 

[Pirate hunter eddy]

For her clash with Luffy

Considering that Luffy is an advanced CoA user now

I'm confused did you make a typo or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Monkey D Theories]

(btw, calling Oden WB's first mate is wrong, Marco was WB's first mate)

Marco was not whitebeard's first mate during the roger era. Back then it was clearly oden. This can be seen by the fact that whitebeard callls Oden a brother while he calls everyone else a son.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Marco was not whitebeard's first mate during the roger era. Back then it was clearly oden. This can be seen by the fact that whitebeard callls Oden a brother while he calls everyone else a son.

Again this is just an assertion on your part with little to no backing. Was Oden the strongest of WBs subordinates, yes! without a shadow of a doubt. However, Oden being WBs first mate especially since we already have confirmation that Marco was WBs is head cannon. Strength alone doesn't grant u the first mate position. Hell, I'd argue dependability/realibility is a bigger factor and Oden doesn't come across as very reliable or someone responsible enough for that position

 

[Monkey D Theories]

This dude what kinda argument is this. The Tobi Roppo are competing to capture Yamato not teaming up to capture her and I'm very sure you are aware of this and just being dishonest cause it is blatantly obvious so no, Yamato is not strong enough to require all of the Tobi Roppo tag team to capture her.

but kaido asked all of the tobi roppo to find her. If it was enough to just send one or two, why would he ask all of them to find her?

Also if the tobi roppo are competing to capture yamato, then by default, they are teaming up to capture her. If Sasaki, who's who, drake, ulti, and page one are all trying to capture yamato, then yamato has to deal with all of the tobi roppo.

Yamato took Ulti off guard with a friggin Thunder Bagua, the same technique that Kaidou used to take Luffy out in one shot and she tanked that shit

she didn't tank it. She was momentarily incapacitated and when she did wake up, she still wasn't fully healthy. Hence she was coughing up blood. When Page one rushed to the scene where luffy and Yamato were fighting, ulti was nowhere to be seen.

Zoans have quick recovery, so even if you take them out, its very likely that they will be able to get back up after some time. This doesn't change the fact, however, that Yamato was still able to take her out.

Post automatically merged: Jul 25, 2020

Again this is just an assertion on your part with little to no backing. Was Oden the strongest of WBs subordinates, yes! without a shadow of a doubt. However, Oden being WBs first mate especially since we already have confirmation that Marco was WBs is head cannon. Strength alone doesn't grant u the first mate position. Hell, I'd argue dependability/realibility is a bigger factor and Oden doesn't come across as very reliable or someone responsible enough for that position

but marco was stated to be an apprentice in the flashback

Post automatically merged: Jul 25, 2020

its not even that Sanji can't be calamity level. I just don't understand why you are denying that yamato is calamity level while there is actually much more proof for her being on that level than there is sanji.

And that's just from what we've seen and we honestly haven't seen much from yamato. For all we know, she could have a devil fruit.

Post automatically merged: Jul 25, 2020

if yamato does join, it would only be natural for her to be stronger than sanji. She idolizes Oden and hence probably has a much bigger motivation to be strong than sanji, who just wants to be a cook, does. Not to mention that she's kaido's daughter

 

[PuckTheGreat]

but kaido asked all of the tobi roppo to find her. If it was enough to just send one or two, why would he ask all of them to find her?

Also if the tobi roppo are competing to capture yamato, then by default, they are teaming up to capture her. If Sasaki, who's who, drake, ulti, and page one are all trying to capture yamato, then yamato has to deal with all of the tobi roppo.

Kaidou sending one or two of the Tobi Roppo to capture her would've been favoritism on his part particularly if he's rewarding her capture with the opportunity to challenge an all star.

On the bolded part, no it really isn't, until you show me panels of Oda having all the Tobi Roppo fight together to capture Yamato, you are not convincing me that she is strong enough to solo them.

she didn't tank it. She was momentarily incapacitated and when she did wake up, she still wasn't fully healthy. Hence she was coughing up blood. When Page one rushed to the scene where luffy and Yamato were fighting, ulti was nowhere to be seen.

Zoans have quick recovery, so even if you take them out, its very likely that they will be able to get back up after some time. This doesn't change the fact, however, that Yamato was still able to take her out.

but marco was stated to be an apprentice in the flashback

I don't remember any panel of Ulti being passed out and down from the attack, we just saw her spit out blood and get white eyed from it. I mean Kaidou was white-eyed got knocked out from the sky by Luffy's elephant gun as well or do you think Luffy took Kaidou out to? but even if we say that she was momentarily incapacitated (i.e. down for a few seconds) by it, isn't that still technically tanking it? Also, we literally had Kaidou's subordinate state that the dino's durability is ridiculous precisely because of how her and Page One took their respective attacks from Yamato and Luffy.

On the bolded bit, yes prior to Oden joining, and the same Marco was made a division commander a few years after Oden joined. So it doesn't really invalidate my point.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

On the bolded part, no it really isn't, until you show me panels of Oda having all the Tobi Roppo fight together to capture Yamato, you are not convincing me that she is strong enough to solo them.

its literally common sense

if a deer is in a lake and 5 alligators are trying to eat the deer, while each alligator is technically competing against each other, they are still going to go for the deer.

if all of the tobi roppo are going after yamato, then obviously yamato has to deal with multiple tobi roppo, and hence it would effectively be a tag team. I don't understand how you don't get this.

Post automatically merged: Jul 25, 2020

On the bolded part, no it really isn't, until you show me panels of Oda having all the Tobi Roppo fight together to capture Yamato, you are not convincing me that she is strong enough to solo them.

I never said that she could beat all 6 of them, but its clear she can at least take out some of them as her introduction was literally her 1 shotting ulti

 

[SinOfGreed]

Oden > ray and scopper
Yamato > zoro and sanji
:smithnie:

Rayleigh>Oden

He wasn't called Dark King for nothin

 

[Monkey D Theories]

I don't remember any panel of Ulti being passed out and down from the attack, we just saw her spit out blood and get white eyed from it. I mean Kaidou was white-eyed got knocked out from the sky by Luffy's elephant gun as well or do you think Luffy took Kaidou out to? but even if we say that she was momentarily incapacitated (i.e. down for a few seconds) by it, isn't that still technically tanking it? Also, we literally had Kaidou's subordinate state that the dino's durability is ridiculous precisely because of how her and Page One took their respective attacks from Yamato and Luffy.

it was in like the first page of the chapter after yamato's introduction. Page one is shaking ulti and she seems unresponsive.

you can say she was tanking it if you want, but with the amount of injury she took from that hit, Yamato would have easily been able to defeat her if she continued to fight. Hence I put yamato significantly above ulti.

This can clearly be seen when Yamato was able to casually block a punch from Luffy which utilized both G2 and G3, whereas a simply G3 punch was enough to fuck up Page One's jaw and base Luffy was easily able to deal with Ulti's hybrid.

 

[Kishido]

it was in like the first page of the chapter after yamato's introduction. Page one is shaking ulti and she seems unresponsive.

you can say she was tanking it if you want, but with the amount of injury she took from that hit, Yamato would have easily been able to defeat her if she continued to fight. Hence I put yamato significantly above ulti.

This can clearly be seen when Yamato was able to casually block a punch from Luffy which utilized both G2 and G3, whereas a simply G3 punch was enough to fuck up Page One's jaw and base Luffy was easily able to deal with Ulti's hybrid.

By that logic Jinbe is not strong cuz he was amazed by Luffy's growth blocking a simple G2 punch.

And Sanji tanked attacks from both of them at the same time.

And this was all at FI... And now all of the M3 got power ups

 

[Albino 👑]

Rayleigh>Oden

He wasn't called Dark King for nothin

Oden legit had the worlds strongest and infamous people hopping on his dick

From newgate to roger to lowkey kaido and now luffy

Goat

 

[SinOfGreed]

Oden legit had the worlds strongest and infamous people hopping on his dick

From newgate to roger to lowkey kaido and now luffy

Goat

Lol Roger literally called Rayleigh his partner and was referred to as his 'most trusted confidant'

There is no way Oden was stronger than Dark King Rayleigh

 

[Albino 👑]

Lol Roger literally called Rayleigh his partner and was referred to as his 'most trusted confidant'

There is no way Oden was stronger than Dark King Rayleigh

Yeah rayleigh has been with him since the jump he was even his first crew member

Doesn't mean hes stronger than oden

 

[Kishido]

Lol Roger literally called Rayleigh his partner and was referred to as his 'most trusted confidant'

There is no way Oden was stronger than Dark King Rayleigh

And Scopper was portrayed with Rayleigh in that flashback both ready to go against Oden and both in command of the rest of the crew