Powers & Abilities Misunderstanding of CoC
- Thread starter sanjikun
- Start date
valid.
its almost like people forget at the point luffy learned 'adv coc'
he had defeated a top commander
and survived multiple scuffles with kaido .
he had the ability to see the future,
had mastered 3 distinct applications of armament haki ,
with a df amped with enough power to throttle most high tiers he came across.
How strong a character is , will always be cumulative not based on how one uses conqueror haki.
Funny thing about this thread is you wont see many counterarguments
but whataboutism's or gotcha's on ops favorite character .
this place reeks.
its almost like people forget at the point luffy learned 'adv coc'
he had defeated a top commander
and survived multiple scuffles with kaido .
he had the ability to see the future,
had mastered 3 distinct applications of armament haki ,
with a df amped with enough power to throttle most high tiers he came across.
How strong a character is , will always be cumulative not based on how one uses conqueror haki.
Post automatically merged:
Funny thing about this thread is you wont see many counterarguments
but whataboutism's or gotcha's on ops favorite character .
this place reeks.
I think some people fundamentally misunderstand what CoC is and does. Here are some in-canon explanations
(1) You cannot "train" your CoC to be stronger. You can train to manipulate it. That's it. CoC is a reflection of your base strength. So this idea that Shanks has stronger CoC but he is weaker than other characters like Kaido or Mihawk, is nonsense. Shanks can learn to manipulate it better, but the strength of your CoC is fixed.
(2) ACoC is a not magic pill that automatically makes you Admiral/Yonko level. You can still be close to High Tier with ACoC (Zoro/Yamato).
This comes from VIZ exaggerating their translations. (They did the same for Future Sight)
The actual Japanese does not use the superlative "strongest". It simply says "some strong people" can use. Rayleigh said the same about Future Sight, and VIZ again translated it as "strongest".
The reason Luffy became so powerful with ACoC is because Luffy's base was already Top Tier. Just because awakening made Luffy Kaido's equal, it doesn't mean awakening will make Kaku Kaido's equal. It's all about your base.
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My main point here is, CoC or ACoC is not some magic bullet in and of itself. It's a reflection of your base strength. Having CoC or ACoC in and of itself is not going to make you Admiral or Yonko level.
(1) You cannot "train" your CoC to be stronger. You can train to manipulate it. That's it. CoC is a reflection of your base strength. So this idea that Shanks has stronger CoC but he is weaker than other characters like Kaido or Mihawk, is nonsense. Shanks can learn to manipulate it better, but the strength of your CoC is fixed.
(2) ACoC is a not magic pill that automatically makes you Admiral/Yonko level. You can still be close to High Tier with ACoC (Zoro/Yamato).
This comes from VIZ exaggerating their translations. (They did the same for Future Sight)
The actual Japanese does not use the superlative "strongest". It simply says "some strong people" can use. Rayleigh said the same about Future Sight, and VIZ again translated it as "strongest".
The reason Luffy became so powerful with ACoC is because Luffy's base was already Top Tier. Just because awakening made Luffy Kaido's equal, it doesn't mean awakening will make Kaku Kaido's equal. It's all about your base.
------
My main point here is, CoC or ACoC is not some magic bullet in and of itself. It's a reflection of your base strength. Having CoC or ACoC in and of itself is not going to make you Admiral or Yonko level.
Dont worry this explanation will be way more common after a certain event involing COCKing soon happens instead spamming the "only handful of strongest line"
You know it, i know it, everyone knows it
So according to you Luffy would have defeated Kaido with gear 5 and ACoA?
Mfs on this site don't know what the fuck to say...
Mfs on this site don't know what the fuck to say...
Luffy is using internal penetration along with ACoC, you can't just gift his feat to raw ACoC alone. If you are going to say ACoC was unlocked after ACoA, then by that logic Luffy Awakened after unlocking Conq Coating, so it takes priority in what weighs more against Kaidou.
So according to you Luffy would have defeated Kaido with gear 5 and ACoA?
Mfs on this site don't know what the fuck to say...
Mfs on this site don't know what the fuck to say...
Mate, no one showed ACoC before this scene. Oda had not fully fleshed out this idea.
Even Shanks v. Whitebeard and Kaido v. Big Mom did not show this
I know it might seem impossible, but Oda has not figured out everything from day 1. He can make up stuff as he goes.
Here is the Japanese: ひと握りの強者だけな！
Nowhere here does it "the very strongest". "Tsuwamono" literally means "strong people".
Here is ChatGPT explanation
Here is Google Translate
It's not about who is the "expert" in Japanese, but you can't seem to grasp that translators take liberty with translation to make things more dramatic. Not every translation is 100% literal. VIZ doesn't care about powerscaling agendas. They want to make a more readable manga.
I'm simply giving you the 100% literal translation, with no dramatic effect.
Nowhere here does it "the very strongest". "Tsuwamono" literally means "strong people".
Here is ChatGPT explanation
Here is Google Translate
It's not about who is the "expert" in Japanese, but you can't seem to grasp that translators take liberty with translation to make things more dramatic. Not every translation is 100% literal. VIZ doesn't care about powerscaling agendas. They want to make a more readable manga.
I'm simply giving you the 100% literal translation, with no dramatic effect.
Viz aren't the ones making it more dramatic, the author himself is doing that by using つわもの instead of きょうしゃ, anyone with a decent understanding of japanese would grasp this, thankfully, the official translators are good at their jobs, they're able to pick up on this subtle nuance that goes right over your head and translate is accurately.
What the hell are you talking about?
Kaido takes 4 Oden Two Sword Style, Paradise Totsuka attacks from Kinemon, Denjiro, Ashura, and Inuarashi and stands back up, claiming that even 4 ACoA attacks used at the same time are too shallow to open up his old scar....
Luffy with only ACoA and he said it several times.
With ACoC is when Luffy was able to do real damage to Kaido.
Also Luffy could not hurt the Gorosei because he did not use ACoC.
Kaido takes 4 Oden Two Sword Style, Paradise Totsuka attacks from Kinemon, Denjiro, Ashura, and Inuarashi and stands back up, claiming that even 4 ACoA attacks used at the same time are too shallow to open up his old scar....
Luffy with only ACoA and he said it several times.
With ACoC is when Luffy was able to do real damage to Kaido.
Also Luffy could not hurt the Gorosei because he did not use ACoC.
強者 is usually written as きょうしゃ and ChatGPT is assuming it is written that way because you don't provide the actual context, however, in this instance Oda specifically writes it as つわもの as indicated by the furigana above it, which is much more uncommon and makes it significantly more extreme and poetic, the meaning changes from just generic strong people to the most elite of the elite, hence why Viz translated it as such, your infallible source ChatGPT literally agrees with me on this.
Viz aren't the ones making it more dramatic, the author himself is doing that by using つわもの instead of きょうしゃ, anyone with a decent understanding of japanese would grasp this, thankfully, the official translators are good at their jobs, they're able to pick up on this subtle nuance that goes right over your head and translate is accurately.
Viz aren't the ones making it more dramatic, the author himself is doing that by using つわもの instead of きょうしゃ, anyone with a decent understanding of japanese would grasp this, thankfully, the official translators are good at their jobs, they're able to pick up on this subtle nuance that goes right over your head and translate is accurately.
But spare me the bullshit about "tsuwamono" literally meaning "the very strongest". It certainly does not mean that. "Tsuwa" means strong, "mono" means person. It's that simple.
Tsuwamono is simply the Japanese reading, while Kyosha is the Chinese reading of that Kanji.
There are no superlatives here. It's that simple. No one is saying people that use ACoC aren't elite fighters. The question are they THE VERY STRONGEST. That's what we're debating.
What the hell are you talking about?
Kaido takes 4 Oden Two Sword Style, Paradise Totsuka attacks from Kinemon, Denjiro, Ashura, and Inuarashi and stands back up, claiming that even 4 ACoA attacks used at the same time are too shallow to open up his old scar....
Luffy with only ACoA and he said it several times.
With ACoC is when Luffy was able to do real damage to Kaido.
Also Luffy could not hurt the Gorosei because he did not use ACoC.
Kaido takes 4 Oden Two Sword Style, Paradise Totsuka attacks from Kinemon, Denjiro, Ashura, and Inuarashi and stands back up, claiming that even 4 ACoA attacks used at the same time are too shallow to open up his old scar....
Luffy with only ACoA and he said it several times.
With ACoC is when Luffy was able to do real damage to Kaido.
Also Luffy could not hurt the Gorosei because he did not use ACoC.
I literally told you this translation is for poetic effect, not everything is for powerscaling. That's why VIZ did it.
But spare me the bullshit about "tsuwamono" literally meaning "the very strongest". It certainly does not mean that. "Tsuwa" means strong, "mono" means person. It's that simple.
Tsuwamono is simply the Japanese reading, while Kyosha is the Chinese reading of that Kanji.
There are no superlatives here. It's that simple.
But spare me the bullshit about "tsuwamono" literally meaning "the very strongest". It certainly does not mean that. "Tsuwa" means strong, "mono" means person. It's that simple.
Tsuwamono is simply the Japanese reading, while Kyosha is the Chinese reading of that Kanji.
There are no superlatives here. It's that simple.
きょうしゃ is the standard literal reading that translates as just generic strong people, つわもの intensifies that and makes it refer to the strongest of the strong.
Great post I just have two issues with it
Yamato went toe to toe with Kaido. Kaido being the strongest creature of world and just slighty ahead of Yamato doesn't make her out of the same tier. She is there.
Zoro was able to scar Kaido like Oden was and he was at the same tier as Kaido. He even blitzed him to do it while being on his limit. I wouldn't say that Zoro was at same tier as Kaido but the one right after, fully healed and dominating King of Hell style, he surely is. Just like Luffy.
Luffy is always tricky one. Oda at the same time portrays him too weak and too strong. Luffy is by far the one with worst durability. He is getting knocked out all the time by Kaido and Big Mom(Whole Cake Island) while others are not. And at the next moment he is tanking shots that should've killed him already (but Kin'emon too so whatever).
Also Luffy is on match with Kaido after learning ACoC since his base. That's how messed up the fight was. Luffy is fighting Kaido as equal in his base form (aka G1), also when he used G2 (pretty much doubles his power and speed, or tenplicates idk), also when using G3 or combining G2 and G3. He is also equal in G4 and then at G5. It is fucking ridiculous.
Yamato went toe to toe with Kaido. Kaido being the strongest creature of world and just slighty ahead of Yamato doesn't make her out of the same tier. She is there.
Zoro was able to scar Kaido like Oden was and he was at the same tier as Kaido. He even blitzed him to do it while being on his limit. I wouldn't say that Zoro was at same tier as Kaido but the one right after, fully healed and dominating King of Hell style, he surely is. Just like Luffy.
Luffy is always tricky one. Oda at the same time portrays him too weak and too strong. Luffy is by far the one with worst durability. He is getting knocked out all the time by Kaido and Big Mom(Whole Cake Island) while others are not. And at the next moment he is tanking shots that should've killed him already (but Kin'emon too so whatever).
Also Luffy is on match with Kaido after learning ACoC since his base. That's how messed up the fight was. Luffy is fighting Kaido as equal in his base form (aka G1), also when he used G2 (pretty much doubles his power and speed, or tenplicates idk), also when using G3 or combining G2 and G3. He is also equal in G4 and then at G5. It is fucking ridiculous.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and putting words into an online dictionary or translator does not give your claim credibility, there is no issue whatsoever with Viz's translation and the guys who did it are infinitely more experienced and credible than you are.
きょうしゃ is the standard literal reading that translates as just generic strong people, つわもの intensifies that and makes it refer to the strongest of the strong.
きょうしゃ is the standard literal reading that translates as just generic strong people, つわもの intensifies that and makes it refer to the strongest of the strong.
WB = 世界最強の男
Kaido = 最強の生物
Mihawk = 世界最強の剣士
Admirals = 最高戦力
Those are superlatives. Tsuwa (Strong) mono (person) is not a superlative no matter how much you bullshit about it being "poetic strongest".
Here are Japanese people explaining the meaning
https://hinative.com/questions/25370341#google_vignette
"The word 'つわもの' (tsuwamono) means a strong person or a warrior, while 'ぼっち' (bocchi) refers to being alone or solitary."
B-b-but Viz is supposed to be correct and they have decades of experience translating!
https://x.com/sandman_ap/status/1936882980225683850?s=46&t=yrRZ-ANZh6EBs7xwgJNlcg
Translationbros what we gon do if forum dwellers turned official translate worse than fan scans doing it on the porn riddled ad pages despite the decades of experience @SkySanji @sanjikun @Roo @Sentinel
https://x.com/sandman_ap/status/1936882980225683850?s=46&t=yrRZ-ANZh6EBs7xwgJNlcg
Translationbros what we gon do if forum dwellers turned official translate worse than fan scans doing it on the porn riddled ad pages despite the decades of experience @SkySanji @sanjikun @Roo @Sentinel
