General & Others Next Straw Hat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet
- Thread starter Uncle Van
- Start date
- Tags #c4ng2g carrot fans are still losers carrot haters are real losers seethe at the rabbit carrot is doing nothing because she doesn't matter carrot will never join the straw hats carrot's story never even began cry about carrot everyone else in the verse neg diffs the bunny imagine thinking stussy won't join its over furry bros keep the bunny on zou nobody else needs her let it go furry bros momo is breeding yamato no character is less relevant than carrot oden larper fans can't read stussy > carrot & yamato stussy supremacy who will be the next nakama of the week? yamato always had a better chance than carrot yamato story is over
Okay, I'll try simpler terms.
You're saying that we know Yamato's arc is over because she chose freely. You're also saying that we know Yamato chose freely because her arc is over. That's circular reasoning.
So you need to give evidence for one that doesn't assume the other is also true, or just admit that it's circular reasoning.
You're saying that we know Yamato's arc is over because she chose freely. You're also saying that we know Yamato chose freely because her arc is over. That's circular reasoning.
So you need to give evidence for one that doesn't assume the other is also true, or just admit that it's circular reasoning.
Ok I see your point but I think you are missunderstanding me:
No. I'm saying that we know Yamato's arc is finished because she chose. Period.
The ending point of a storytelling arc is in 99% of the cases, the choice that comes with a self revelation of the character. If we look closer we can indeed see that this revelation is the discovery of the importance of freedom through choice, choice being responsibility over selfishness.
For the first part of this sentence I can't give you evidence, that's a advanced rule of storytelling (that you should also know) for the second part (the revelation) it starts on this panel:
Remember this panels ?
It was released in chapter 1041, february 22 2022
Here is what I was saying the 28th:
"
Yamato is setup as a guardian of Wano.
If Yamato was setup as a strawhat, what Oda would do is not affirming the desire - MULTIPLE TIMES - of Yamato wanting to sail the seas.. He would SHOW Yamato working with the strawhats & having a definite capacity for a post!
When you watch a lot of stories and know how they are crafted, you know that if a character states MULTIPLE TIMES a desire while doing MULTIPLE TIMES the exact opposite, it means that said desire will be twisted. Either because of an external event or because of a CHOICE coming from the protagonist themself. "
Later that day I added:
"Because if that's the case, the fact that Yamato changes her mind to be the guardian of Wano instead makes perfect sence from a narrative point of view. I already explained that earlier :
Yamato has only one true goal. No, that's not going out to sea. No, that's not following Luffy. No, that's not even being the guardian of Wano either. Yamato's one true goal is simple and surely one of the reason she cried so much when she heard Luffy's true desire.
The true goal of Yamato is FREEDOM
Because of what she lived, Yamato never had any freedom, she was castrated by her dad and life in general. But one thing she was ripped from more than anything else, was her freedom to CHOOSE.
If Yamato clashed against her father on his words to make her the next Shogun, it's not because Yamato doesn't want to become Shogun, it's because those are the words of her father who beat and locked her up for years !!
And here is all the irony in this story : Sailing with the strawhats would grant freedom to Yamato, that's for sure, but NOTHING would grant her as much freedom as for her to choose by herself to become the guardian of Wano! The freedom to choose her own path with her own vision on how this should be done and all of that because of HER will...
That is true freedom. "
Later, the 5th march I explained what I meant by "acting as a guardian and not as a strawhat" therefore explaining why Yamato instead of being constructed and acting like a strawhat was in fact being depicted and acted as a guardian deity for Wano and Momo:
HERE (on this forum, I can't copy paste because there are panels and I can't recuperate them)
BUT.. There was something I kept for me until May 16th (chapter 1049, the defeatt of Kaido), I said this:
"All of you must remember that this mystery reaction of Yamato to Momo asking for guidance on the future of Wano..
... hasn't been resolved yet! " (I'm talking about this panel)
I continued: "This reaction.. in storytelling logic, stands on the fine line between indirect foreshadowing and Shadowing that I talked about earlier."
"Yamato is thinking about something on that specific panel, it's not just the exclamation point, there is also a "snap" symbol. Meaning that something was triggered when Yamato heard Momo ask her if he was a coward.
My conclusion/ hypothesis: This reaction is preparing a switch in Yamato's mind, to change her own course of action and/or desire. That specific problematic MUST be approached again and resolved or it will leave a very little "narrative hole".
All of that to say : "Not really". What Yamato lived with Momo was enough to trigger a change of mind. Now, we just need to know what Yamato was thinking at that specific moment. "
The only error that MIGHT have made Oda was not explaining what passed through Yamato mind at this time but we can guess it. Simply because of what she is reacting to:
Yamato is reacting to Momo questionnning his own father and starting to make his own choice. And that's what is imlpied here for Yamato:
"Can I also choose my own path?"
This will be triggered again offscreen with the arrival of greenbull and the sight of MOmo not being able to handle himself. Then, there is this panel:
Proving that indeed, Yamato chose her own path by accepting the responsibility and doing:
- the opposite of what Kaido wanted
AND
- The opposite of what Oden did
Yamato chose the third path. Her own "oden" path. And ALL OF THAT is THE evidence that you need to understand that Yamato made a choice, not under pressure, but for herself. Just like Vivi at the time made the same choice.
---
On a side note, you would really gain in checking the last nakama thread and the way I was talking about Yamato. You will see that I wasn't only right about Yamato not becoming a strawhat. But on her entire future storyline.
No. I'm saying that we know Yamato's arc is finished because she chose. Period.
The ending point of a storytelling arc is in 99% of the cases, the choice that comes with a self revelation of the character. If we look closer we can indeed see that this revelation is the discovery of the importance of freedom through choice, choice being responsibility over selfishness.
For the first part of this sentence I can't give you evidence, that's a advanced rule of storytelling (that you should also know) for the second part (the revelation) it starts on this panel:
Remember this panels ?
It was released in chapter 1041, february 22 2022
Here is what I was saying the 28th:
"
Yamato is setup as a guardian of Wano.
If Yamato was setup as a strawhat, what Oda would do is not affirming the desire - MULTIPLE TIMES - of Yamato wanting to sail the seas.. He would SHOW Yamato working with the strawhats & having a definite capacity for a post!
When you watch a lot of stories and know how they are crafted, you know that if a character states MULTIPLE TIMES a desire while doing MULTIPLE TIMES the exact opposite, it means that said desire will be twisted. Either because of an external event or because of a CHOICE coming from the protagonist themself. "
Later that day I added:
"Because if that's the case, the fact that Yamato changes her mind to be the guardian of Wano instead makes perfect sence from a narrative point of view. I already explained that earlier :
Yamato has only one true goal. No, that's not going out to sea. No, that's not following Luffy. No, that's not even being the guardian of Wano either. Yamato's one true goal is simple and surely one of the reason she cried so much when she heard Luffy's true desire.
The true goal of Yamato is FREEDOM
Because of what she lived, Yamato never had any freedom, she was castrated by her dad and life in general. But one thing she was ripped from more than anything else, was her freedom to CHOOSE.
If Yamato clashed against her father on his words to make her the next Shogun, it's not because Yamato doesn't want to become Shogun, it's because those are the words of her father who beat and locked her up for years !!
And here is all the irony in this story : Sailing with the strawhats would grant freedom to Yamato, that's for sure, but NOTHING would grant her as much freedom as for her to choose by herself to become the guardian of Wano! The freedom to choose her own path with her own vision on how this should be done and all of that because of HER will...
That is true freedom. "
Later, the 5th march I explained what I meant by "acting as a guardian and not as a strawhat" therefore explaining why Yamato instead of being constructed and acting like a strawhat was in fact being depicted and acted as a guardian deity for Wano and Momo:
HERE (on this forum, I can't copy paste because there are panels and I can't recuperate them)
BUT.. There was something I kept for me until May 16th (chapter 1049, the defeatt of Kaido), I said this:
"All of you must remember that this mystery reaction of Yamato to Momo asking for guidance on the future of Wano..
... hasn't been resolved yet! " (I'm talking about this panel)
I continued: "This reaction.. in storytelling logic, stands on the fine line between indirect foreshadowing and Shadowing that I talked about earlier."
"Yamato is thinking about something on that specific panel, it's not just the exclamation point, there is also a "snap" symbol. Meaning that something was triggered when Yamato heard Momo ask her if he was a coward.
My conclusion/ hypothesis: This reaction is preparing a switch in Yamato's mind, to change her own course of action and/or desire. That specific problematic MUST be approached again and resolved or it will leave a very little "narrative hole".
All of that to say : "Not really". What Yamato lived with Momo was enough to trigger a change of mind. Now, we just need to know what Yamato was thinking at that specific moment. "
The only error that MIGHT have made Oda was not explaining what passed through Yamato mind at this time but we can guess it. Simply because of what she is reacting to:
Yamato is reacting to Momo questionnning his own father and starting to make his own choice. And that's what is imlpied here for Yamato:
"Can I also choose my own path?"
This will be triggered again offscreen with the arrival of greenbull and the sight of MOmo not being able to handle himself. Then, there is this panel:
Proving that indeed, Yamato chose her own path by accepting the responsibility and doing:
- the opposite of what Kaido wanted
AND
- The opposite of what Oden did
Yamato chose the third path. Her own "oden" path. And ALL OF THAT is THE evidence that you need to understand that Yamato made a choice, not under pressure, but for herself. Just like Vivi at the time made the same choice.
---
On a side note, you would really gain in checking the last nakama thread and the way I was talking about Yamato. You will see that I wasn't only right about Yamato not becoming a strawhat. But on her entire future storyline.
Ok I see your point but I think you are missunderstanding me:
No. I'm saying that we know Yamato's arc is finished because she chose. Period.
The ending point of a storytelling arc is in 99% of the cases, the choice that comes with a self revelation of the character. If we look closer we can indeed see that this revelation is the discovery of the importance of freedom through choice, choice being responsibility over selfishness.
For the first part of this sentence I can't give you evidence, that's a advanced rule of storytelling (that you should also know) for the second part (the revelation) it starts on this panel:
Remember this panels ?
It was released in chapter 1041, february 22 2022
Here is what I was saying the 28th:
"
Yamato is setup as a guardian of Wano.
If Yamato was setup as a strawhat, what Oda would do is not affirming the desire - MULTIPLE TIMES - of Yamato wanting to sail the seas.. He would SHOW Yamato working with the strawhats & having a definite capacity for a post!
When you watch a lot of stories and know how they are crafted, you know that if a character states MULTIPLE TIMES a desire while doing MULTIPLE TIMES the exact opposite, it means that said desire will be twisted. Either because of an external event or because of a CHOICE coming from the protagonist themself. "
Later that day I added:
"Because if that's the case, the fact that Yamato changes her mind to be the guardian of Wano instead makes perfect sence from a narrative point of view. I already explained that earlier :
Yamato has only one true goal. No, that's not going out to sea. No, that's not following Luffy. No, that's not even being the guardian of Wano either. Yamato's one true goal is simple and surely one of the reason she cried so much when she heard Luffy's true desire.
The true goal of Yamato is FREEDOM
Because of what she lived, Yamato never had any freedom, she was castrated by her dad and life in general. But one thing she was ripped from more than anything else, was her freedom to CHOOSE.
If Yamato clashed against her father on his words to make her the next Shogun, it's not because Yamato doesn't want to become Shogun, it's because those are the words of her father who beat and locked her up for years !!
And here is all the irony in this story : Sailing with the strawhats would grant freedom to Yamato, that's for sure, but NOTHING would grant her as much freedom as for her to choose by herself to become the guardian of Wano! The freedom to choose her own path with her own vision on how this should be done and all of that because of HER will...
That is true freedom. "
Later, the 5th march I explained what I meant by "acting as a guardian and not as a strawhat" therefore explaining why Yamato instead of being constructed and acting like a strawhat was in fact being depicted and acted as a guardian deity for Wano and Momo:
HERE (on this forum, I can't copy paste because there are panels and I can't recuperate them)
BUT.. There was something I kept for me until May 16th (chapter 1049, the defeatt of Kaido), I said this:
"All of you must remember that this mystery reaction of Yamato to Momo asking for guidance on the future of Wano..
... hasn't been resolved yet! " (I'm talking about this panel)
I continued: "This reaction.. in storytelling logic, stands on the fine line between indirect foreshadowing and Shadowing that I talked about earlier."
"Yamato is thinking about something on that specific panel, it's not just the exclamation point, there is also a "snap" symbol. Meaning that something was triggered when Yamato heard Momo ask her if he was a coward.
My conclusion/ hypothesis: This reaction is preparing a switch in Yamato's mind, to change her own course of action and/or desire. That specific problematic MUST be approached again and resolved or it will leave a very little "narrative hole".
All of that to say : "Not really". What Yamato lived with Momo was enough to trigger a change of mind. Now, we just need to know what Yamato was thinking at that specific moment. "
The only error that MIGHT have made Oda was not explaining what passed through Yamato mind at this time but we can guess it. Simply because of what she is reacting to:
Yamato is reacting to Momo questionnning his own father and starting to make his own choice. And that's what is imlpied here for Yamato:
"Can I also choose my own path?"
This will be triggered again offscreen with the arrival of greenbull and the sight of MOmo not being able to handle himself. Then, there is this panel:
Proving that indeed, Yamato chose her own path by accepting the responsibility and doing:
- the opposite of what Kaido wanted
AND
- The opposite of what Oden did
Yamato chose the third path. Her own "oden" path. And ALL OF THAT is THE evidence that you need to understand that Yamato made a choice, not under pressure, but for herself. Just like Vivi at the time made the same choice.
---
On a side note, you would really gain in checking the last nakama thread and the way I was talking about Yamato. You will see that I wasn't only right about Yamato not becoming a strawhat. But on her entire future storyline.
No. I'm saying that we know Yamato's arc is finished because she chose. Period.
The ending point of a storytelling arc is in 99% of the cases, the choice that comes with a self revelation of the character. If we look closer we can indeed see that this revelation is the discovery of the importance of freedom through choice, choice being responsibility over selfishness.
For the first part of this sentence I can't give you evidence, that's a advanced rule of storytelling (that you should also know) for the second part (the revelation) it starts on this panel:
Remember this panels ?
It was released in chapter 1041, february 22 2022
Here is what I was saying the 28th:
"
Yamato is setup as a guardian of Wano.
If Yamato was setup as a strawhat, what Oda would do is not affirming the desire - MULTIPLE TIMES - of Yamato wanting to sail the seas.. He would SHOW Yamato working with the strawhats & having a definite capacity for a post!
When you watch a lot of stories and know how they are crafted, you know that if a character states MULTIPLE TIMES a desire while doing MULTIPLE TIMES the exact opposite, it means that said desire will be twisted. Either because of an external event or because of a CHOICE coming from the protagonist themself. "
Later that day I added:
"Because if that's the case, the fact that Yamato changes her mind to be the guardian of Wano instead makes perfect sence from a narrative point of view. I already explained that earlier :
Yamato has only one true goal. No, that's not going out to sea. No, that's not following Luffy. No, that's not even being the guardian of Wano either. Yamato's one true goal is simple and surely one of the reason she cried so much when she heard Luffy's true desire.
The true goal of Yamato is FREEDOM
Because of what she lived, Yamato never had any freedom, she was castrated by her dad and life in general. But one thing she was ripped from more than anything else, was her freedom to CHOOSE.
If Yamato clashed against her father on his words to make her the next Shogun, it's not because Yamato doesn't want to become Shogun, it's because those are the words of her father who beat and locked her up for years !!
And here is all the irony in this story : Sailing with the strawhats would grant freedom to Yamato, that's for sure, but NOTHING would grant her as much freedom as for her to choose by herself to become the guardian of Wano! The freedom to choose her own path with her own vision on how this should be done and all of that because of HER will...
That is true freedom. "
Later, the 5th march I explained what I meant by "acting as a guardian and not as a strawhat" therefore explaining why Yamato instead of being constructed and acting like a strawhat was in fact being depicted and acted as a guardian deity for Wano and Momo:
HERE (on this forum, I can't copy paste because there are panels and I can't recuperate them)
BUT.. There was something I kept for me until May 16th (chapter 1049, the defeatt of Kaido), I said this:
"All of you must remember that this mystery reaction of Yamato to Momo asking for guidance on the future of Wano..
... hasn't been resolved yet! " (I'm talking about this panel)
I continued: "This reaction.. in storytelling logic, stands on the fine line between indirect foreshadowing and Shadowing that I talked about earlier."
"Yamato is thinking about something on that specific panel, it's not just the exclamation point, there is also a "snap" symbol. Meaning that something was triggered when Yamato heard Momo ask her if he was a coward.
My conclusion/ hypothesis: This reaction is preparing a switch in Yamato's mind, to change her own course of action and/or desire. That specific problematic MUST be approached again and resolved or it will leave a very little "narrative hole".
All of that to say : "Not really". What Yamato lived with Momo was enough to trigger a change of mind. Now, we just need to know what Yamato was thinking at that specific moment. "
The only error that MIGHT have made Oda was not explaining what passed through Yamato mind at this time but we can guess it. Simply because of what she is reacting to:
Yamato is reacting to Momo questionnning his own father and starting to make his own choice. And that's what is imlpied here for Yamato:
"Can I also choose my own path?"
This will be triggered again offscreen with the arrival of greenbull and the sight of MOmo not being able to handle himself. Then, there is this panel:
Proving that indeed, Yamato chose her own path by accepting the responsibility and doing:
- the opposite of what Kaido wanted
AND
- The opposite of what Oden did
Yamato chose the third path. Her own "oden" path. And ALL OF THAT is THE evidence that you need to understand that Yamato made a choice, not under pressure, but for herself. Just like Vivi at the time made the same choice.
---
On a side note, you would really gain in checking the last nakama thread and the way I was talking about Yamato. You will see that I wasn't only right about Yamato not becoming a strawhat. But on her entire future storyline.
You can talk all you what about how you think the story was set up, but the panel where she chose clearly showed that she didn't choose what she really wanted.
But you know all that at this point. You've been caught dead to rights using circular reasoning, and instead of coming up with a different argument or admitting you were wrong, you doubled down on it. Everyone can see that you're a fraud, and I've proven my point, so I'm considering this discussion finished.
There is no logical fallacy bra... and no circular argument, only you is making that up
You are strawmanning my arguments lol
Yeah, you are completely bias.
FIrst, you don't know what Yamato really wants because Yamato never says it clearly. She says "I really want to join you" but never does she says that she prefer that over staying in Wano. Never.
Second the panel choose that she was constructed as a guardian, its not about the choice its about Oda creating Yamato as someone that will choose another path that going to sea
Lmao you are the one using fallacies and you are like "discussion finished"
U funny
xD
You are strawmanning my arguments lol
Yeah, you are completely bias.
FIrst, you don't know what Yamato really wants because Yamato never says it clearly. She says "I really want to join you" but never does she says that she prefer that over staying in Wano. Never.
Second the panel choose that she was constructed as a guardian, its not about the choice its about Oda creating Yamato as someone that will choose another path that going to sea
Lmao you are the one using fallacies and you are like "discussion finished"
U funny
xD
That was going to be a joke, but I guess you don't know logical fallacies as well as you think you do.
Anyway, lets move on. I will restart with the beginning. I want to be sure of a few thing;
How do you know that a character are is finished in a story ?
I proved you had no defence when I caught you using circular reasoning as the basis of your argument and your response was just to circle back to the beginning and regurgitate the same stuff I already debunked. So yeah, I proved my point.
Also you still didn't get my joke. Think harder about logical fallasies.
Also you still didn't get my joke. Think harder about logical fallasies.
