General & Others Next Straw Hat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet

[Logiko]

Nox is not the night before the dawn

The night before the dawn was the TCB translation. Here is the official one (as it was changed):

Let's me ask you:

Are you saying that all the points quoted above are not facts stated in the manga ? ??

Also do you know how long the list of crepuscular animals is?

And ? This doesn't change anything, the rabbits are the most famous ones.

lions, rats, ferrets, jaguars, pumas

Oda didn't put a rat, a lion, a ferret, a jaguar or a Puma at the head of the Kingdom. He put a WHITE RABBIT. A SYMBOL of innocence. Such innocence that is also literally shown in the manga as well.

So again. Do you really think that I'm the one reading too much into it ? Or are you all so bias that you choose to ignore all those narrative FACTS of the manga constructing Carrot as a link between the minks and therefore, a Queen ??

You seem in full denial here. Just trying to prove me wrong is useless here.

 

[Monkey D Al]

The night before the dawn was the TCB translation. Here is the official one (as it was changed):

Let's me ask you:

Are you saying that all the points quoted above are not facts stated in the manga ? ??



And ? This doesn't change anything, the rabbits are the most famous ones.



Oda didn't put a rat, a lion, a ferret, a jaguar or a Puma at the head of the Kingdom. He put a WHITE RABBIT. A SYMBOL of innocence. Such innocence that is also literally shown in the manga as well.

So again. Do you really think that I'm the one reading too much into it ? Or are you all so bias that you choose to ignore all those narrative FACTS of the manga constructing Carrot as a link between the minks and therefore, a Queen ??

You seem in full denial here. Just trying to prove me wrong is useless here.

You read to much into it. And what does Pedro saying that have to do with Larrot. Where is Larrot right now? And rabbits are not the most famous crepuscular animals. Not even close.
Stop reading so much into it and also stop yelling.

 

[Logiko]

also stop yelling.

lol That's not yelling bra, its not even speaking loudly.. don't try to avoid your denial lol.

You read to much into it.

What do I read too much into ? Are the things listed above not factual ? Tell me. What is factually wrong here?

- When you clearly shows that there are two clan: Night/day gardian/musketeers
- When you show that Musketeers can't stay at night same as gardian for the day but you show that ONLY TWO characters can help both night and day
- When you show carrot as being the ONLY character with the color of the other faction
- When You symbolise the two factions with a cat and a dog
- When you make the Queen an actual rabbit, a crepuscular animal
- When the mentor of said Character is captain of the NOX pirate (night before the dawn)
- When you focus the relationship of the mink with the Dawn
- When you make the character linked with the dawn through the story and the mentor
- When you characterize the cahracter with Two opposite personnality (Sunny=/=Lunar)
- When you make the character STATE that Carrot inherited the will of Pedro and therefore the dream of the Dawn and you make the boss and Duke says that she is the best suited to do that..

Don't you see that Carrot is literally shown as a narrative LINK between the night/gardians and the day/musketeers ?

What is so complicated to understand here ? This is basic.

And rabbits are not the most famous crepuscular animals. Not even close.

Yes they are lol simply because they are pets. But even if not, this question is irrelevant, the simple fact that Carrot is crepuscular is enough no matter if others are too. This is basic characterization.

The point is that Carrot was constructed as a Link. And therefore the perfect Queen. BUT ALSO.. that she was constructed narratively and characterized as the opposite.

This means that in the narration of Carrot, there is a factual paradoxe that must be explained.

 

[Kurozumi D. Trussop]

Such symbolism are not just narrative artefacts:

- When you clearly shows that there are two clan: Night/day gardian/musketeers
- When you show that Musketeers can't stay at night same as gardian for the day but you show that ONLY TWO characters can help both night and day
- When you show carrot as being the ONLY character with the color of the other faction
- When You symbolise the two factions with a cat and a dog
- When you make the Queen an actual rabbit, a crepuscular animal
- When the mentor of said Character is captain of the NOX pirate (night before the dawn)
- When you focus the relationship of the mink with the Dawn
- When you make the character linked with the dawn through the story and the mentor
- When you characterize the cahracter with Two opposite personnality (Sunny=/=Lunar)
- When you make the character STATE that Carrot inherited the will of Pedro and therefore the dream of the Dawn and you make the boss and Duke says that she is the best suited to do that..

The things stated above are not interpretations, they are fact.

So... do you really think that "I" am the one reading too much into it when I say that Carrot represent the link between two world and the dawn ?

 

[Logiko]

 

[Warback]

No


- Carrot is constructed as one of the closest to the power in mokomo

You're just wrong, objectively. At no point is she portrayed as having the closest power in mokomo, it's like saying Luffy is contructed to be the king of Dawn Island, it's nonsense.

She's portrayed as a kid going on an adventure, she's a Kingbird, that's not the closet to power in mokomo, Shishilian and Pedro representing the musketers and guardians are the ones constructed as the closest to power in mokomo, or even Wanda and Shishilian that also works as a cat/dog descendants of Inu and Neko.

Carrot is kinda both in the guardians and the musketers, she is an odd one out for sure and the Kingbird role reinforces the idea that she's between day and night but that being closest to power stuff is just bullsht, Momo is constructed to be a ruler not Carrot.

 

[Logiko]

At no point is she portrayed as having the closest power in mokomo

Being a Kingsbird literally means that your are the closest to the power. Not in term of hierarchy but in term of CLOSENESS. The two kingsbird are the ONLY mink allowed to be close to the power both night and day.

it's like saying Luffy is contructed to be the king of Dawn Island, it's nonsense.

What are you saying ?? Luffy is not represented as being the link between the night and the day, he is represented as being the future king of the pirate, the bringer of the dawn of the world.

She's portrayed as a kid going on an adventure

Yes, my point exactly.

Shishilian and Pedro representing the musketers and guardians are the ones constructed as the closest to power in mokomo

No. They are the highest in hierarchy but not related to the power in term of closeness and priviledges.

or even Wanda and Shishilian that also works as a cat/dog descendants of Inu and Neko.

When I'm talking about the Kingsbird I'm talking about Carrot AND Wanda. wanda is also well placed to be a queen of Zou.

Carrot is kinda both in the guardians and the musketers

My point exactly. In narration this has a name: a allegory. The allegory of the dawn.

Momo is constructed to be a ruler not Carrot.

Dude.. MY POINT EXACTLY.

My point is that she is constructed BOTH as the link of the clans of the mink (and therefore the ideal queen) AND the opposite of a ruler, a innocent girl.

This is this precise paradoxe that I'm trying to make you guys understand.

And the answer behind this paradox is dual:

- Either Carrot is meant to become a better queen in the future and have a link to the dawn, which means she will have a strong character arc later.

OR

- She is meant to join the crew later and she will discover that her real purpose is on the seas with Luffy. Letting Wanda be the real queen of Mokomo and therefore have a strong character arc later.

In both cases, Carrot should come back to the story and have a strong character arc later.

If not, her character arc is simply illogical, which would be something very strange for Oda looking at the care he put into Carrot's characterization.

 

[KonyaruIchi]

You read all that in Carrot. The rest didn’t. So yes, yes you read to much into it. Also Nox is not the night before the dawn. Nox is just the Roman name of Nyx the Greek goddess of the night.
Also do you know how long the list of crepuscular animals is? Rabbits ain’t that special but again you trying to find something special. You probably researched rabbits after carrot and read the word crepuscular found it cool and use it now. But you forgot to check that lions, rats, ferrets, jaguars, pumas(all cats) and a lot other animals are as well crepuscular. So the chance that a mink is also a crepuscular animal are very high.

Eh Nox is literally just latin for night, it's the opposite of lux which is light/day, Pedro chose the word due to the whole symbolism thing so that's not necessarily wrong, I just think that the conejo isn't nearly as important for it as ya boi "i'm gonna name myself after a character joining the crew but I'm totally not a fanboy" makes her out to be. Oda wanted his rabbit for alice in wonderland in WCI, because he likes doing silly things like that, and she got discarded as soon as her role ended (wano is more than enough proof of that considering she barely appeared and got her ass handed to her off-screen). She'll definitely return as a side character later on, I have zero doubt about it, but Oda really had a lot of threads that went nowhere in wano and this is one of them, doesn't mean she's suddenly the most important in the verse though

 

[Logiko]

Eh Nox is literally just latin for night, it's the opposite of lux which is light/day, Pedro chose the word due to the whole symbolism thing so that's not necessarily wrong, I just think that the conejo isn't nearly as important for it as ya boi "i'm gonna name myself after a character joining the crew but I'm totally not a fanboy" makes her out to be. Oda wanted his rabbit for alice in wonderland in WCI, because he likes doing silly things like that, and she got discarded as soon as her role ended (wano is more than enough proof of that considering she barely appeared and got her ass handed to her off-screen). She'll definitely return as a side character later on, I have zero doubt about it, but Oda really had a lot of threads that went nowhere in wano and this is one of them, doesn't mean she's suddenly the most important in the verse though

Are you aware of all of this ?


- Oda clearly shows that there are two clan: Night/day gardian/musketeers
- Oda shows that Musketeers can't stay at night same as gardian for the day but you show that ONLY TWO characters can help both night and day
- Oda shows carrot as being the ONLY character with the color of the other faction
- Oda symbolises the two factions with a cat and a dog
- Oda makes the Queen an actual rabbit, a crepuscular animal
- Oda makes the mentor of Carrot, the captain of the NOX pirate (night before the dawn)
- Oda focuses on the relationship of the mink with the Dawn
- Oda makes the character linked with the dawn through the story and the mentor
- Oda characterizes Carrot with two opposite personnality (Sunny=/=Lunar)
- Oda makes the character STATE that Carrot inherited the will of Pedro and therefore the dream of the Dawn and you make the boss and Duke says that she is the best suited to do that.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Eh Nox is literally just latin for night, it's the opposite of lux which is light/day, Pedro chose the word due to the whole symbolism thing so that's not necessarily wrong, I just think that the conejo isn't nearly as important for it as ya boi "i'm gonna name myself after a character joining the crew but I'm totally not a fanboy" makes her out to be.

At night the pillars are shining even brighter.....

 

[Warback]

Being a Kingsbird literally means that your are the closest to the power. Not in term of hierarchy but in term of CLOSENESS. The two kingsbird are the ONLY mink allowed to be close to the power both night and day.

This is just non-sense what do you mean by "close"? Do you mean in terms of physical proximity or next in line for sucession? Because either of them are not true.

And that still wouldn't be true as depiction of Carrot being portrayed as a Queen, the same logic can be used for Wanda.

You jsut reverse enginer the story into your arguments forcefully.

No. They are the highest in hierarchy but not related to the power in term of closeness and priviledges.

Ok i legit dunno if i'm being gaslit or if i'm reading 3 piece, what priviligues do Wanda and Carrot have? What are you actually even talking about

 

[Connor Kenway]

This is just non-sense what do you mean by "close"? Do you mean in terms of physical proximity or next in line for sucession? Because either of them are not true.

And that still wouldn't be true as depiction of Carrot being portrayed as a Queen, the same logic can be used for Wanda.

You jsut reverse enginer the story into your arguments forcefully.



Ok, no sé si me están iluminando con gas o si estoy leyendo 3 piezas, ¿qué privilegios tienen Wanda y Carrot? ¿De qué estás hablando realmente?

Here you can clearly see a Carrot Fan (Warback) who is coherent and analytical when he writes something.

On the other hand we see another Carrot fan (Logiko) who has serious problems with experimental drugs, a severe psychosis and quite high narcissism and according to him (as well as other carrot fans on Twitter) they think they are the best and only ones who know how to analyze One Piece and according to them they understand the manga better than Oda himself and according to them they are going to teach him how to write.

And I have my suspicions that he (Logiko) is one of the carrot fans that are from Twitter and now he came to the forum to write pure incongruity.

 

[Logiko]

This is just non-sense what do you mean by "close"? Do you mean in terms of physical proximity or next in line for sucession? Because either of them are not true.

By close, I mean that the Kingsbird is a special status that make the officer stay close to the active King. Meaning that they are literally the one who knows all about the secret of the island as they are the closest to their both kings. Its not complicated, its just a question of status. The two Kingsbird, Carrot and Wanda can be seen as the confident and the most loyal mink.

And that still wouldn't be true as depiction of Carrot being portrayed as a Queen, the same logic can be used for Wanda.

YES, yes yes yes yes and yes. That's the point. Wanda is ALSO a kingsbird. The only difference with her is that Wanda doesn't have all the attribute of Carrot (the symbolic relationship to the dawn and the symbolic link between the clans) but in reality, it applies to Wanda too. And that's why its interesting..

Wanda, COULD become the future Queen of Zou. Don't you think she would be a lot more fitted than Carrot at the job ?
Plus there is another thing than is unexplained about Wanda is that she had in her position the royal treasure, a dress and she seems to have a special relationship with Inuarashi (vivre card)

BTW, we still don't know why Wanda AND Carrot became Kingsbirds.

The status of wanda is actually helping the potential of Carrot jumping back on the seas with Luffy.

what priviligues do Wanda and Carrot have?

The priviledge of Staying awake and being at the side of both king when they are active both day and night. This is not something that Mink have. The way Carrot interact with the Kings is a clear indications that she feels close to them.

You jsut reverse enginer the story into your arguments forcefully.

No. I'm looking at the evidences the paradoxe they create:

>>"
- Oda clearly shows that there are two clan: Night/day gardian/musketeers
- Oda shows that Musketeers can't stay at night same as gardian for the day but you show that ONLY TWO characters can help both night and day
- Oda shows carrot as being the ONLY character with the color of the other faction
- Oda symbolises the two factions with a cat and a dog
- Oda makes the Queen an actual rabbit, a crepuscular animal
- Oda makes the mentor of Carrot, the captain of the NOX pirate (night before the dawn)
- Oda focuses on the relationship of the mink with the Dawn
- Oda makes the character linked with the dawn through the story and the mentor
- Oda characterizes Carrot with two opposite personnality (Sunny=/=Lunar)
- Oda makes the character STATE that Carrot inherited the will of Pedro and therefore the dream of the Dawn and you make the boss and Duke says that she is the best suited to do that.

Despise that, characterizes Carrot like a teenage innocent girl with no leadership skill and makes her loses almost all her fights.
"<<

And I try to explain it:

- Either Carrot is meant to become a better Queen and it will be shown

- Either Carrot is meant to join the strawhats and Wanda the real Queen of Mokomo.

severe psychosis

First and last time that you uses this in an argument to ridiculize me. I will not repeat myself.

 

[Connor Kenway]

First and last time that you uses this in an argument to ridiculize me. I will not repeat myself.

That's the problem with you, when they tell you your truths you can't stand it, because I'm sure most of the people who have responded to your crazy theories and wrong information, most of them have thought that about you.

 

[Sigran101]

@Logiko arguing that Carrot was set up to be queen of Zou from the moment she was introduced while simultaneously claiming she was always meant to be a strawhat

 

[Warback]

By close, I mean that the Kingsbird is a special status that make the officer stay close to the active King. Meaning that they are literally the one who knows all about the secret of the island as they are the closest to their both kings. Its not complicated, its just a question of status. The two Kingsbird, Carrot and Wanda can be seen as the confident and the most loyal mink.

I'm not even meming or being mean at this point, but what "secrets"? You meant they're phsysically closest to the rulers, which A. is not necessarly true because they patrol a lot and B. Being geographically close to the ruler doesn't mean they're somehow inclined to be rulers.

But what do you mean with secrets? Neither of them knew about the RP, both Carrot and Wanda are subordinates to Pedro/Shishilian, i don't understand wheer you see this leader favouritism or whate secrets are given to the Kingsbird.

YES, yes yes yes yes and yes. That's the point. Wanda is ALSO a kingsbird. The only difference with her is that Wanda doesn't have all the attribute of Carrot (the symbolic relationship to the dawn and the symbolic link between the clans) but in reality, it applies to Wanda too. And that's why its interesting..

Wanda, COULD become the future Queen of Zou. Don't you think she would be a lot more fitted than Carrot at the job ?
Plus there is another thing than is unexplained about Wanda is that she had in her position the royal treasure, a dress and she seems to have a special relationship with Inuarashi (vivre card)

BTW, we still don't know why Wanda AND Carrot became Kingsbirds.

The status of wanda is actually helping the potential of Carrot jumping back on the seas with Luffy.
.

I think in terms of who is most fitted to rule Zou, my priority is :

1. No rulers, Zou is literally a vassal state to the Kozukis, even their island listens to Momo
2. Shishilian/Pedro (rip homie)
3. Shishilian/Wanda (dog/cat paralel)
4.Wanda/one of the top 3 musketers
5. Anyone above the age of 15 that's a Mink
6. Carrot

Kinda memeing but kinda being honest.

he priviledge of Staying awake and being at the side of both king when they are active both day and night. This is not something that Mink have. The way Carrot interact with the Kings is a clear indications that she feels close to them.

Staying awake is a priviliege. I mean lol sure whatever, i'm not going to dwell on this, because i see a Logiko axiom being created.

No. I'm looking at the evidences the paradoxe they create:

>>"
- Oda clearly shows that there are two clan: Night/day gardian/musketeers
- Oda shows that Musketeers can't stay at night same as gardian for the day but you show that ONLY TWO characters can help both night and day
- Oda shows carrot as being the ONLY character with the color of the other faction
- Oda symbolises the two factions with a cat and a dog
- Oda makes the Queen an actual rabbit, a crepuscular animal
- Oda makes the mentor of Carrot, the captain of the NOX pirate (night before the dawn)
- Oda focuses on the relationship of the mink with the Dawn
- Oda makes the character linked with the dawn through the story and the mentor
- Oda characterizes Carrot with two opposite personnality (Sunny=/=Lunar)
- Oda makes the character STATE that Carrot inherited the will of Pedro and therefore the dream of the Dawn and you make the boss and Duke says that she is the best suited to do that.

Despise that, characterizes Carrot like a teenage innocent girl with no leadership skill and makes her loses almost all her fights.
"<<

And I try to explain it:

- Either Carrot is meant to become a better Queen and it will be shown

- Either Carrot is meant to join the strawhats and Wanda the real Queen of Mokomo.


First and last time that you uses this in an argument to ridiculize me. I will not repeat myself.

I'm not debating the ins and outs of your paradox thingy you're doing, i just quoted your " Carrot was built to be a queen", if you mean in the sense that she ended up a queen, sure that was a role imparted to her, but "built/constructed" means something else, that's what i was arguing, stay on point instead of getting mad off divagations,
[automerge]1698806854[/automerge]
I can't believe im arguing with a Carrot fan about any validity of her being built as a queen , this is what Carrot haters we're saying to dismiss her cliffhanger non-sense ending.

Pedro's is looking down from heaven disanpointed at you

 

[NAMELESS]

I have been thinking:Boa Hancock will definitely raise a straw hat flag and join the grand fleet.Yamato will probably create a samurai pirate crew and sail by herself,she might also become a grand fleet member.

 

[Logiko]

That's the problem with you, when they tell you your truths you can't stand it, because I'm sure most of the people who have responded to your crazy theories and misinformation, most of them have thought that about you.

I don't care how many punch you throw at me or how many time you make fun of me or my reasonning as I know that you don't understand them, so this goes beyond me.

But using the weaknesses of others to make fun of them is nothing but simple inhuman immoral brutality. And if you are doing this with me means that you can do it with anyone else. So I warn you. Don't do that again please.

Thanks.

@Logiko arguing that Carrot was set up to be queen of Zou from the moment she was introduced while simultaneously claiming she was always meant to be a strawhat

Hm... Maybe I should clarify.

- Carrot was WRITTEN as the link between the Minks of the night and the Minks of the day. Which EXPLAINS why she became Queen. Therefore (with addition to everything I listed above) its logical to think that Oda had already in mind the plotpoint of putting Carrot at the head of the Mokomo Kingdom already back in Zou.

- Now.. Oda ALSO wrote Carrot as the opposite of a leader and not just someone with no leadership skills (following Chopper instead of taking descisions), but someone making big strategic mistakes, innocent and even made her lose her most important fight. Plus Oda put the emphasis on her post, created 888 and put Carrot with the strawhats during Wano which was non necessary.

Those two things form a narrative paradox.

---

And like any mysteries, this one must be explained.

I see two options:

- Either Carrot will come back to the story and have a character arc that will strenghten her position as leader as the mink tribe and her relationship with the dawn of the world

- Either Carrot will join the strawhats.

but what "secrets"?

Ruler's secrets. Its just logic, they are at the side of their ruler both night and day and play the role of messenger and guardian of the Kingdom so they should know one or two secrets about the kingdom (not sayin that they understand them lol, Carrot's pretty naive)

A. is not necessarly true because they patrol a lot and B

Let's not debate too much on this, this role is up for interpretation and its not really important, what is important to understand is that they have a special status and that status makes them closer to the rulers. Simple as that.

if you mean in the sense that she ended up a queen, sure that was a role imparted to her, but "built/constructed" means something else, that's what i was arguing, stay on point instead of getting mad off divagations,

I rephrased :
"Carrot was WRITTEN as the link between the Minks of the night and the Minks of the day. Which EXPLAINS why she became Queen. Therefore (with addition to everything I listed above) its logical to think that Oda had already in mind the plotpoint of putting Carrot at the head of the Mokomo Kingdom already back in Zou."

I can't believe im arguing with a Carrot fan about any validity of her being built as a queen , this is what Carrot haters we're saying to dismiss her cliffhanger non-sense ending.

I told you, I'm not a Carrot fan per say. I love her character, but I'm more interested in the story and the narration of her character.

 

[Warback]

Ruler's secrets. Its just logic, they are at the side of their ruler both night and day and play the role of messenger and guardian of the Kingdom so they should know one or two secrets about the kingdom (not sayin that they understand them lol, Carrot's pretty naive)

You see this is the problem man, you just asserted Kingsbird know of the rulers secrets, when i asked what secrets you say you don't know, but it's logic, no man it's not logic that Kingsbird know of the some imaginary ruler's secrets, it's an opinion you have, based on nothing really, you just imagined that it's the case and you called it logic.

 

[Logiko]

You see this is the problem man, you just asserted Kingsbird know of the rulers secrets, when i asked what secrets you say you don't know, but it's logic, no man it's not logic that Kingsbird know of the some imaginary ruler's secrets

Of course it is. They have the same status has the confident of a King. They act as messenger so logically, they must know some rulery secret.

You are really trying to dismiss a simple logical deduction here. Plus its not really that important. The important thing is that there are only two Kingsbird in the country, that this is a very special status and that they act as messenger and inbetween between the clans and rulers.

There is really, no need to debate so much on this.