General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet

[jordin]

The thing is, i'm not just giving my opinion here. I'm also most of the time explaining concept that are present in the story. Concept that you are ignoring. Those concept are not "opinion", they are factual techniques. And I understand how me saying that can be "condescending".. but there is just no other way to explain those concept... if you don't trust me... you don't trust me.. nothing even facts that I will give you won't pass.. That would be like me (as a potential scientist) trying to convince an antivaxxer that conspiracy theory are actually harmfull.. this won't go well because - by principle - the personn won't trust me because of who I am

No, you're masking your "analysis" and criteria about the straw hats as objective literary techniques and concepts. Saying every straw hat has some "shining mugiwara action" is not an objective fact nor is it something everyone must abide by or else they're pigeons. That's also not what I mean about you being condescending. Its the calling people unintelligent and praising only yourself as a storytelling deity who's opinions are above others. Its pretty ironic that you complain about others twisting words then not catch that.

There are things that do not need thinking, they are just there.

Dude, you claim anyone that believes Yamato is joining and not Carrot must be too biased. Van literally says he hates Yamato but apparently he must be biased for her. I'm starting to think you don't know what that word means and just rely on it to gaslight people that don't agree with you.

What ? I never slandered Yamato. I like her character.

You've been part of the Yamao shit talk and said numerous times she has 0 chance and people are dumb for thinking so. That and the point you conveniently glossed over about calling people names is why you're also toxic. I don't understand how you can say otherwise besides your arrogance saying you're the only one allowed to be special.

Honestly. if you don't see the problem at this point, I don't really care. There's a clear reason why people in this thread praise for more C4N people like Pot Goblin and Shift but attack you. It doesn't take rocket science to find out either. You can continue being the sole turn off for Carrot in this thread though since I doubt you're willing to acknowledge faults in what you say and it gives people content. I just want it to be on record that I tried to be reasonable enough to explain.

 

[Pot Goblin]

Great points, although sorry that I laughed really loud that your fellow Carrot fan said that “Perospero is not Carrot’s main villain. Carrot’s main villain is the sea.” Well, he clearly doesn’t understand the meaning of “main villain” that Luffy & Straw Hats need to defeat for the potential crew to join. It’s always been like that. From Zoro to Jinbe. I think I don’t need to mention those, as I believe you have much more intelligence to comprehend

And from your points above regarding Big Mom, and for her stronger friendship side, I’m still waiting for your answer of the question: “why Carrot needs to be special, and it goes for Carrot and only Carrot?” As again I must say that the 3 main points (personal conflict, main villain, and terrible past) are always been there for each Straw Hat. Yes, your fellow Carrot fan said “they’re not needed”, but then again the same question:”why they’re not needed for Carrot and only Carrot? Why Carrot has to be special?”

I really hope you have good answers, especially answers which have been implied in the story; not “I think” or something like “to surprise the readers”. Feels like I’m losing more brain cells regarding your fellow mate. Thank goodness you’re here

I'll start by saying that I absolutely do not agree with the notion C4N brings up that "they're not needed" since as you say it is something that can apply to all the other Straw Hats, which includes Vivi and even Yamato. Especially since one could argue how Carrot does fit into these points which could potentially help her position as a potential crewmate. The glaring issue here is that as you said, one needs to explain why Carrot is special when compared to the other Straw Hats.

I may have a satisfying answer to this, using actual evidence from the manga as well. What I did was that I reread Zou to look for clues and see if there was any confirmation that WCI was always meant to be an abnormal arc. In my mind, to prove that WCI is truly unique could help justify why Carrot is unique compared to other Straw Hats.

Here's a breakdown of how WCI is unique, the first 8 pages are from Chapters 814-815. The last page is from Chapter 819. After you read through these pages I will give a page-by-page breakdown of how they prove WCI's uniqueness. Note that in all but the last page Carrot is right there with them. After the breakdown, I will try to explain why Carrot is a special case Straw Hat.

http://imgur.com/a/Bj83yfz

1. We get an explanation from Zoro that the threat of Kaido and the Beast Pirates is now a reality that can't be ignored. The timing of Sanji being kidnapped was horrible as the crew was already on an ultra-important campaign against one Yonko.
2. Extension of the first page, Zoro explains how they're already on a collision course towards Kaido. After Luffy suggests simply going straight to Sanji he is reminded by his crew that Big Mom is a force to be reckoned with. Most importantly, we see Robin saying that "She's an Yonko, Luffy!! Don't forget this isn't like before." Luffy then responds that they'll "go quietly." I would say that this confirms straight away that Big Mom is not like other arc villains, even Luffy doesn't want to simply tackle her straight on.
3. Pages 3-6 are an absolute dump of info that explains Sanji's situation and Big Mom's massive influence and power. Not only that but introducing more potential danger in the situation with Germa 66. Oda spends a lot of time making sure that the audience knows that Big Mom is in a completely different league when compared to past villains, even ones like Doflamingo, Crocodile, and even CP9.
4. The important part on page 7 is the beginning of the Sanji Retrieval Team. Luffy initially declares that he wants to go alone, with the threat of Kaido they can't risk an all-out war with another Yonko. Luffy actively wants to avoid fighting and just wants to focus on saving Sanji. Also, there's a neat little seed planted here with Carrot saying out loud that a rescue mission sounds fun.
5. Page 8 is a reconfirmation that the Straw Hats can not simply ignore Kaido and focus on saving Sanji.
6. The most important part of this page is that Luffy declares that he is not fighting Big Mom.

So putting all of this together, I would say that it proves WCI's uniqueness in 3 ways.

1. The scale of Big Mom's influence and power is one that we've never seen in the series before with other villains. Facing BMI head-on is not like the raids on an Alabasta city, the Dressrosa Kingdom, or the CP9 HQ. It would be an all-out war against a full-on country.

2. This is a rare scenario where the Straw Hats were facing multiple strong forces at once, the only other time that I remember was during Thriller Bark when they faced 2 warlords back to back. That scenario is a perfect example of how dangerous a 2-front battle is as well, any other Warlord other than Kuma would've wiped out the Straw Hats right then and there.

3. This is another rare scenario of when the Straw Hats wanted to actively avoid fighting. The last time was during Alabasta when they were originally going to convince the rebel leader to stop the attack on the kingdom. But plans changed and they went to defeat Crocodile instead. What makes WCI different is that when the plan changed with Sanji's rescue they had to run away instead and escape WCI after a failed assassination attempt instead of trying to defeat Big Mom and her crew.

This brings back those 3 Straw Hat points you mentioned.

1. Every single Straw Hat was a co-protagonist who needed the help of the current Straw Hats to finish their personal conflict
2. Every single Straw Hat has their own main villain of the arc, who in the end got defeated by Luffy with the help of Straw Hats; as the main villain’s underlings got defeated by current Straw Hats / the potential Straw Hat
3. Every single Straw Hat has a terrible past which makes them more like a family

I feel like I can confidently give true answers to each of these now, the main thing to realize is that with WCI's uniqueness that each of them has a slight twist.

1. The twist here is that the Straw Hats are the ones that need help this time instead of vice versa. Carrot fills the co-protagonist role by joining the Sanji Retrieval Team and consistently aiding the Straw Hats in their personal conflict to save Sanji from Big Mom. The pages I presented earlier show that Carrot was interested in this rescue mission early on in its development.
2. Obviously, Big Mom is the main villain of the arc. The twist here is that she didn't get defeated in a traditional way. Below are two pages from chapter 903.

http://imgur.com/a/wbsdHyd

While some of the information is a bit misleading, Luffy was actually victorious due to saving Sanji while beating a couple of top-tier officers and destroying BMI's main castle. All with the help of the co-protagonists this arc, which includes Carrot.

3. I've talked about this before in my previous response to you. Basically, the twist is that Carrot's terrible past takes place in real-time, watching her mentor and one of her closest friends die right in front of her eyes.

So now it's time for the golden question, why is Carrot so special compared to other Straw Hats? This one I had a lot of trouble answering, but after rereading Zou I believe I have a legit answer.

What I present is that if Oda truly intends to have Carrot join the crew then the only chance he had to properly lay the foundation for her being a potential crewmember was during WCI. But since WCI is a very unique arc, Oda wasn't able to lay her foundation in a completely traditional way.

First I would like to go back to my reread of Zou, something special about that arc it sets up 2 arcs at the same time with WCI and Wano. Keep in mind that during the talks and set-up for WCI you can see Carrot right there with them, which you can see in the pages I linked above. But during Chapters 818 and 819 the official talks and set-up for Wano in Raizo's cave Carrot is nowhere to be seen.

http://imgur.com/a/TsTwFBh

The most important part of that last page is Carrot saying that she wasn't even born yet when it came to the tale of the insanely important connection between the two Mink Kings and the Kozuki clan. Combining her lack of presence during the scene in Raizo's cave + the fact that she didn't even exist during Oden's adventure shows a potentially interesting revelation.

This revelation is that she has almost 0 personal conflicts or connections to Wano and the Beast Pirates. Instead, the person that does have all of these personal connections to Wano and the Beast Pirates is Yamato.

This is more of a personal theory, but without her involvement in WCI then it would be completely impossible for Carrot to join during Wano. She would have to lay a traditional foundation with your 3 main points alongside all of the emotional explorations with Wano's people, Oden, and the red scabbards. As well as with Yamato laying her traditional foundation. And all of the personal moments with the other Straw Hats. It would spread out too much focus in an arc that's already criticized for being spread too thin.

And to have her lay the foundation in an arc after Wano would be almost impossible as well. Due to the fact that if she joined after Wano without the foundation of WCI then it would be like a complete stranger with almost 0 connection to the crew joined out of nowhere. Even if she joined right there it would still be hard to lay the traditional foundation as there is a good chance that the Straw Hats go straight to Vivi/Sabo instead of dealing with any personal conflicts that Carrot would potentially have.

This leads to where we are now today with Carrot's status post-1006. Which is waiting for an emotional redemption moment that would potentially use the Wano Wildcards (BMI Pirates and the WG).

I spent way too much time on this, I'm going to go pass out and sleep now...

 

[Adamxero]

Well in case you forget since this character was added at last minute, there is another candidate called Yamao, the shitty Oden cosplayer whose name Luffy doesn't even bother to remember.


Are you really going to say this after a chapter where Yamao basically admitted she can't finish off a sleeping Number and breaking a door as fast as her Fuuga pet?

She said she didn't have time to take the key off him forcefully so asked the number to break the door down which worked didn't it?

Yamato has more than proven herself using AdvCoC to hold off Kaido while the shitty white rabbit Larrot can't even beat the one antagonist she has had when she had help.

Larrot is a hopping a L.

 

[Kishido]

Said he's deleting this account and making a new one after Wano regardless if she joins or not

Pathetic

 

[Kurozumi D. Trussop]

Said he's deleting this account and making a new one after Wano regardless if she joins or not

Who?

 

[Finalbeta]

I wish Gangster Gastino joined permanently

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

I wish Gangster Gastino joined permanently

I wish that Sogeking was still in the crew to be honest.

 

[Finalbeta]

I wish that Sogeking was still in the crew to be honest.

Sogeking is a God amongst Gods

The crew can only afford Gods in Zoro and Usopp

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

I'll start by saying that I absolutely do not agree with the notion C4N brings up that "they're not needed" since as you say it is something that can apply to all the other Straw Hats, which includes Vivi and even Yamato. Especially since one could argue how Carrot does fit into these points which could potentially help her position as a potential crewmate. The glaring issue here is that as you said, one needs to explain why Carrot is special when compared to the other Straw Hats.

I may have a satisfying answer to this, using actual evidence from the manga as well. What I did was that I reread Zou to look for clues and see if there was any confirmation that WCI was always meant to be an abnormal arc. In my mind, to prove that WCI is truly unique could help justify why Carrot is unique compared to other Straw Hats.

Here's a breakdown of how WCI is unique, the first 8 pages are from Chapters 814-815. The last page is from Chapter 819. After you read through these pages I will give a page-by-page breakdown of how they prove WCI's uniqueness. Note that in all but the last page Carrot is right there with them. After the breakdown, I will try to explain why Carrot is a special case Straw Hat.

http://imgur.com/a/Bj83yfz

1. We get an explanation from Zoro that the threat of Kaido and the Beast Pirates is now a reality that can't be ignored. The timing of Sanji being kidnapped was horrible as the crew was already on an ultra-important campaign against one Yonko.
2. Extension of the first page, Zoro explains how they're already on a collision course towards Kaido. After Luffy suggests simply going straight to Sanji he is reminded by his crew that Big Mom is a force to be reckoned with. Most importantly, we see Robin saying that "She's an Yonko, Luffy!! Don't forget this isn't like before." Luffy then responds that they'll "go quietly." I would say that this confirms straight away that Big Mom is not like other arc villains, even Luffy doesn't want to simply tackle her straight on.
3. Pages 3-6 are an absolute dump of info that explains Sanji's situation and Big Mom's massive influence and power. Not only that but introducing more potential danger in the situation with Germa 66. Oda spends a lot of time making sure that the audience knows that Big Mom is in a completely different league when compared to past villains, even ones like Doflamingo, Crocodile, and even CP9.
4. The important part on page 7 is the beginning of the Sanji Retrieval Team. Luffy initially declares that he wants to go alone, with the threat of Kaido they can't risk an all-out war with another Yonko. Luffy actively wants to avoid fighting and just wants to focus on saving Sanji. Also, there's a neat little seed planted here with Carrot saying out loud that a rescue mission sounds fun.
5. Page 8 is a reconfirmation that the Straw Hats can not simply ignore Kaido and focus on saving Sanji.
6. The most important part of this page is that Luffy declares that he is not fighting Big Mom.

So putting all of this together, I would say that it proves WCI's uniqueness in 3 ways.

1. The scale of Big Mom's influence and power is one that we've never seen in the series before with other villains. Facing BMI head-on is not like the raids on an Alabasta city, the Dressrosa Kingdom, or the CP9 HQ. It would be an all-out war against a full-on country.

2. This is a rare scenario where the Straw Hats were facing multiple strong forces at once, the only other time that I remember was during Thriller Bark when they faced 2 warlords back to back. That scenario is a perfect example of how dangerous a 2-front battle is as well, any other Warlord other than Kuma would've wiped out the Straw Hats right then and there.

3. This is another rare scenario of when the Straw Hats wanted to actively avoid fighting. The last time was during Alabasta when they were originally going to convince the rebel leader to stop the attack on the kingdom. But plans changed and they went to defeat Crocodile instead. What makes WCI different is that when the plan changed with Sanji's rescue they had to run away instead and escape WCI after a failed assassination attempt instead of trying to defeat Big Mom and her crew.

This brings back those 3 Straw Hat points you mentioned.

1. Every single Straw Hat was a co-protagonist who needed the help of the current Straw Hats to finish their personal conflict
2. Every single Straw Hat has their own main villain of the arc, who in the end got defeated by Luffy with the help of Straw Hats; as the main villain’s underlings got defeated by current Straw Hats / the potential Straw Hat
3. Every single Straw Hat has a terrible past which makes them more like a family

I feel like I can confidently give true answers to each of these now, the main thing to realize is that with WCI's uniqueness that each of them has a slight twist.

1. The twist here is that the Straw Hats are the ones that need help this time instead of vice versa. Carrot fills the co-protagonist role by joining the Sanji Retrieval Team and consistently aiding the Straw Hats in their personal conflict to save Sanji from Big Mom. The pages I presented earlier show that Carrot was interested in this rescue mission early on in its development.
2. Obviously, Big Mom is the main villain of the arc. The twist here is that she didn't get defeated in a traditional way. Below are two pages from chapter 903.

http://imgur.com/a/wbsdHyd

While some of the information is a bit misleading, Luffy was actually victorious due to saving Sanji while beating a couple of top-tier officers and destroying BMI's main castle. All with the help of the co-protagonists this arc, which includes Carrot.

3. I've talked about this before in my previous response to you. Basically, the twist is that Carrot's terrible past takes place in real-time, watching her mentor and one of her closest friends die right in front of her eyes.

So now it's time for the golden question, why is Carrot so special compared to other Straw Hats? This one I had a lot of trouble answering, but after rereading Zou I believe I have a legit answer.

What I present is that if Oda truly intends to have Carrot join the crew then the only chance he had to properly lay the foundation for her being a potential crewmember was during WCI. But since WCI is a very unique arc, Oda wasn't able to lay her foundation in a completely traditional way.

First I would like to go back to my reread of Zou, something special about that arc it sets up 2 arcs at the same time with WCI and Wano. Keep in mind that during the talks and set-up for WCI you can see Carrot right there with them, which you can see in the pages I linked above. But during Chapters 818 and 819 the official talks and set-up for Wano in Raizo's cave Carrot is nowhere to be seen.

http://imgur.com/a/TsTwFBh

The most important part of that last page is Carrot saying that she wasn't even born yet when it came to the tale of the insanely important connection between the two Mink Kings and the Kozuki clan. Combining her lack of presence during the scene in Raizo's cave + the fact that she didn't even exist during Oden's adventure shows a potentially interesting revelation.

This revelation is that she has almost 0 personal conflicts or connections to Wano and the Beast Pirates. Instead, the person that does have all of these personal connections to Wano and the Beast Pirates is Yamato.

This is more of a personal theory, but without her involvement in WCI then it would be completely impossible for Carrot to join during Wano. She would have to lay a traditional foundation with your 3 main points alongside all of the emotional explorations with Wano's people, Oden, and the red scabbards. As well as with Yamato laying her traditional foundation. And all of the personal moments with the other Straw Hats. It would spread out too much focus in an arc that's already criticized for being spread too thin.

And to have her lay the foundation in an arc after Wano would be almost impossible as well. Due to the fact that if she joined after Wano without the foundation of WCI then it would be like a complete stranger with almost 0 connection to the crew joined out of nowhere. Even if she joined right there it would still be hard to lay the traditional foundation as there is a good chance that the Straw Hats go straight to Vivi/Sabo instead of dealing with any personal conflicts that Carrot would potentially have.

This leads to where we are now today with Carrot's status post-1006. Which is waiting for an emotional redemption moment that would potentially use the Wano Wildcards (BMI Pirates and the WG).

I spent way too much time on this, I'm going to go pass out and sleep now...

Very interesting answer. This is the kind of answer from pro Carrot argument that is needed to support her possibility of joining the crew. Although I must admit that IMHO I still pretty much don’t find the satisfying answer.

You explained that Carrot’s case was special because her arc (which is WCI) is also an abnormal/pretty much a special arc. So that means that every single point needed for a Straw Hat, sort of having “slight twist” because of WCI as a unique arc.

And with the 3 main points needed for a potential nakama, you explained that there is sort of slight twist. I guess I have to explain with my POV:

1. You explained that this time it’s the other way around. In my opinion, Carrot is interested to join the rescue mission because later it was revealed that she wanted to go out to the sea. She thought that “sea is a wonderland”, and that she brought some items on her own because she thought it would be a short trip; which basically means after the rescue mission, she would be back to Zou. IMHO if the ones who came to Zou weren’t SHs, Carrot would still very much tag along.
2. Regarding the main villain: yes, Luffy pretty much was regarded “victorious” without defeating Big Mom. But another thing need to be noted is that again; that every single Straw Hat had their own big bad villain of the arc that needs to be “defeated”. Each of the Straw Hat also somehow connected to the big bad villain, and each potential Straw Hat somehow helped the current Straw Hat to defeat the main villain. IMHO Carrot knows nothing about Big Mom. She doesn’t even know how dangerous Big Mom is, because as point number 1 above, she thought that the rescue mission is like a short way trip and for fun purpose.
3. The terrible past point IMHO still stands the same: that it needs to happen in the past; especially during their younger selves. Carrot’s “terrible past” which happens in the present, I don’t think that counts. Even if we want to think it counts, then let’s conclude with the questions regarding your points:

- Why Oda needed to make “slight twist” while he has been doing it the same way for every single Straw Hat? Oda even gave Robin her terrible past with Enies Lobby to fulfill the exact same pattern, but that was the time when Oda still had much time. If Carrot is really a potential nakama, why Oda didn’t give her everything like every single Straw Hat has? Oda should have put effort and followed the same pattern he did for every single Straw Hat if Carrot is really a potential nakama, without needing a twist. Instead if Carrot is really a potential nakama, Oda could’ve given what Yamato has currently (personal conflict, main villain, terrible past) to Carrot instead of creating Yamato, right? Why only Carrot that doesn’t need to follow the pattern, with what you say: slight twist?
- Is there any real connection why Oda put WCI as “unique” arc which favors Carrot joining?

Sorry, but I still don’t get the need for Oda to make slight twists while he’s been doing the same pattern over and over again. I forgot to ask you this, but for future development, we can see that Carrot needs to depend on Sulong form. What do you think about her needing to depend on Sulong form? We all know that the endgame will be between World Government and/or Blackbeard Pirates. Imagine if Blackbeard using his dark power to cover the moon.

I must admit back then Carrot was one of the strongest potential nakamas; but everything changes when Yamato appears. Everything that should’ve been what Carrot has, are given to Yamato. Yamato doesn’t need “slight twist” for her points to make her join the crew; Yamato even has Zoan DF which is stronger, doesn’t need full moon to be activated, and also pretty much doesn’t drain her strength that much. She has it all without the twist. So again goes back to the main question I put above.

 

[Garp the Fist]

Carrot wasn’t a good candidate in WCI either, she was relegated to the B-plot with Chopper for the majority of the arc, her relationship with Pedro was completely undercooked and she had no interactions of note with Luffy. And she had been pretty absent in Zou as well (instead if making her the focal point of the traumatic flashback where Jack destroys Zou, she’s only in it for like a panel).

On WCI the argument was “wait and see, she’ll be centre stage in Wano”, now in Wano it’s “let’s look back at WCI“. The consistent picture being painted is that Carrot was at best a secondary character in WCI, is a tertiary one in Wano and has never done anything to suggest she’d be more than that.

 

[Staticshadic]

Very interesting answer. This is the kind of answer from pro Carrot argument that is needed to support her possibility of joining the crew. Although I must admit that IMHO I still pretty much don’t find the satisfying answer.

You explained that Carrot’s case was special because her arc (which is WCI) is also an abnormal/pretty much a special arc. So that means that every single point needed for a Straw Hat, sort of having “slight twist” because of WCI as a unique arc.

And with the 3 main points needed for a potential nakama, you explained that there is sort of slight twist. I guess I have to explain with my POV:

1. You explained that this time it’s the other way around. In my opinion, Carrot is interested to join the rescue mission because later it was revealed that she wanted to go out to the sea. She thought that “sea is a wonderland”, and that she brought some items on her own because she thought it would be a short trip; which basically means after the rescue mission, she would be back to Zou. IMHO if the ones who came to Zou weren’t SHs, Carrot would still very much tag along.
2. Regarding the main villain: yes, Luffy pretty much was regarded “victorious” without defeating Big Mom. But another thing need to be noted is that again; that every single Straw Hat had their own big bad villain of the arc that needs to be “defeated”. Each of the Straw Hat also somehow connected to the big bad villain, and each potential Straw Hat somehow helped the current Straw Hat to defeat the main villain. IMHO Carrot knows nothing about Big Mom. She doesn’t even know how dangerous Big Mom is, because as point number 1 above, she thought that the rescue mission is like a short way trip and for fun purpose.
3. The terrible past point IMHO still stands the same: that it needs to happen in the past; especially during their younger selves. Carrot’s “terrible past” which happens in the present, I don’t think that counts. Even if we want to think it counts, then let’s conclude with the questions regarding your points:

- Why Oda needed to make “slight twist” while he has been doing it the same way for every single Straw Hat? Oda even gave Robin her terrible past with Enies Lobby to fulfill the exact same pattern, but that was the time when Oda still had much time. If Carrot is really a potential nakama, why Oda didn’t give her everything like every single Straw Hat has? Oda should have put effort and followed the same pattern he did for every single Straw Hat if Carrot is really a potential nakama, without needing a twist. Instead if Carrot is really a potential nakama, Oda could’ve given what Yamato has currently (personal conflict, main villain, terrible past) to Carrot instead of creating Yamato, right? Why only Carrot that doesn’t need to follow the pattern, with what you say: slight twist?
- Is there any real connection why Oda put WCI as “unique” arc which favors Carrot joining?

Sorry, but I still don’t get the need for Oda to make slight twists while he’s been doing the same pattern over and over again. I forgot to ask you this, but for future development, we can see that Carrot needs to depend on Sulong form. What do you think about her needing to depend on Sulong form? We all know that the endgame will be between World Government and/or Blackbeard Pirates. Imagine if Blackbeard using his dark power to cover the moon.

I must admit back then Carrot was one of the strongest potential nakamas; but everything changes when Yamato appears. Everything that should’ve been what Carrot has, are given to Yamato. Yamato doesn’t need “slight twist” for her points to make her join the crew; Yamato even has Zoan DF which is stronger, doesn’t need full moon to be activated, and also pretty much doesn’t drain her strength that much. She has it all without the twist. So again goes back to the main question I put above.

Carrot wasn’t a good candidate in WCI either, she was relegated to the B-plot with Chopper for the majority of the arc, her relationship with Pedro was completely undercooked and she had no interactions of note with Luffy. And she had been pretty absent in Zou as well (instead if making her the focal point of the traumatic flashback where Jack destroys Zou, she’s only in it for like a panel).

On WCI the argument was “wait and see, she’ll be centre stage in Wano”, now in Wano it’s “let’s look back at WCI“. The consistent picture being painted is that Carrot was at best a secondary character in WCI, is a tertiary one in Wano and has never done anything to suggest she’d be more than that.

 

[Logiko]

Great points, although sorry that I laughed really loud that your fellow Carrot fan said that “Perospero is not Carrot’s main villain. Carrot’s main villain is the sea.” Well, he clearly doesn’t understand the meaning of “main villain” that Luffy & Straw Hats need to defeat for the potential crew to join. It’s always been like that. From Zoro to Jinbe. I think I don’t need to mention those, as I believe you have much more intelligence to comprehend

And from your points above regarding Big Mom, and for her stronger friendship side, I’m still waiting for your answer of the question: “why Carrot needs to be special, and it goes for Carrot and only Carrot?” As again I must say that the 3 main points (personal conflict, main villain, and terrible past) are always been there for each Straw Hat. Yes, your fellow Carrot fan said “they’re not needed”, but then again the same question:”why they’re not needed for Carrot and only Carrot? Why Carrot has to be special?”

I really hope you have good answers, especially answers which have been implied in the story; not “I think” or something like “to surprise the readers”. Feels like I’m losing more brain cells regarding your fellow mate. Thank goodness you’re here

See.. That's exactly what I'm pointing at @Sigran101... I make high end storytelling points and they are receive with laughter. That's why after a while I have the impression to talk with pigeon who loves making theories.. but don't know a single things about characters characterization and storytelling..

@JoSeungHun7335 Dude.. Do you think that the fact I said that Carrot main conflict right now is sea was not thought through? Perospero was a storytelling tool to introduced Carrot's main conflict, he was not THE conflict. But you 'd need to actually understand how characterization work to comprehend that point.. so let me explain it to you for the last time:

Carrot WHOLE characterization revolves around the wonder of the seas and her naivety in front of it. Like I explained earlier, the death of Pedro was a big blow on all of this. "Suddenly, the sea that is so wonderful can take my friend, I don't understand", that what you would actually hear if you were in Carrot's head at that moment. Perospero understood that, and called out Carrot's naivety in front of the danger of the sea. And that why it was so important for Carrot to be defeated(or to struggle) here. Carrot needed to be put in front of her own dillema:

"Do I love the sea enough to accept it's danger?"

That's why Perospero is not (right now) the main conflict of Carrot, it's the sea, and all that the sea can bring to Carrot. (Perospero could become the representation of the danger of the sea for Carrot, but that's not the case right now)

So, the next time you laugh at what I say, try at least to understand the concepts behind it. Thanks you in advance.


And for that last point: I'll AGAIN (for the THIRD time) copy this here:

Concerning your question “why it has to be special for Carrot’s case?” I already answered it here.

(i'm quoting myself)"

Good question. Why the tenth would not have a backstory (a story set in the past), why Carrot would need to have a "special" treatment?

Because of three things:

- Time
- Context
- Story lengh

Those three parameters put together are making the next Nakama as one of the most important revelation we will get in the next dozens of chapters. The hype, the fans theories, thefanbase.. everything is on another level right now.. that's why I think the revelation of the next crewmember should be as surprising as possible.

Remember, backstories are just a tool, what Oda is really working with is something far deeper that that. And that "matter" doesn't need to be set in the past. It can be setup in the present. again read my link where I talk about this in detail. (this is from my blog, i won't copy past my article here, it would be too much)
"

In other word, the next Nakama needs to be a great revelation and the context is so different now from back then (10 years ago) that Oda might need to change slighly the pattern in order to surprise the reader.

 

[thedarkdragon11]

again read my link where I talk about this in detail.

Here we go again...

Just a reminder to everyone, be careful clicking external links...

 

[Logiko]

No, you're masking your "analysis" and criteria about the straw hats as objective literary techniques and concepts. Saying every straw hat has some "shining mugiwara action" is not an objective fact nor is it something everyone must abide by or else they're pigeons. That's also not what I mean about you being condescending. Its the calling people unintelligent and praising only yourself as a storytelling deity who's opinions are above others. Its pretty ironic that you complain about others twisting words then not catch that.

Yes, this is an objective fact. The fact that you don't see this fact doesn't make them disapear from the story my dude.. I don't call you unintelligent, I call you pidgeon, pidgeon have their own reasonning and intelligence, and it it to destroy the check game when put on it.. just because it's what they do.. but you can actually train pidgeon.. and that's what I'm trying to do..

So yeah.. for once, it's not very nice from me.. but it doesn't not come out of nowhere.. let me remind you that the majority of you you included, are calling me a troll, a fool, someone even used the word turd I think.. so you will understand that I'm just mirroring your behaviors..

I will be nicer the moment I'll see some respect.

Secondly, I'm not a storytelling deity, trust if it was the case I would not be here, but I do have some knowledge that (SOME of) you don't have. Why can I say that? Because of the way some of you react when I'm making high end storytelling points

Someone who know how storytelling work wouldn't laugh when I say that Carrot's conflict has not been resolved yet because of what Perospero is saying.. they might discuss the point, make counter argument or even go deeperinto the analysis.. but they wouldn't laugh at the point.

I would actually be thankfull to have a discussion about each of the point I'm making about the craft of One Piece, but that's IF there was actually some understanding in front of me.. Here there is (almost) none.

"The shining Nakama action" is indeed a neologism. It's a term I invented to describe something present in the story. You can discuss the terminology I use .. yes. But you can't discuss the existence of what this neologism is describing and said pattern in the story, when I bring you evidences of it. But here.. none only are you dismissing the evidences, but you (as a group) are dismissing my actual work on it. Did you see the movie "don"t look up" ? Well I have the same feeling as those scientist.. gladly, there is no comet heading our way.

Dude, you claim anyone that believes Yamato is joining and not Carrot must be too biased. Van literally says he hates Yamato but apparently he must be biased for her. I'm starting to think you don't know what that word means and just rely on it to gaslight people that don't agree with you.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I say that those who think Yamato is joining over Carrot are reaching and that their is a bias toward Yamato. Quite different.

You can hate a character and still be bias toward them. Because of context, because of how the character reaches to you.. there are a lot of factor.. hating someone doesn't negate your bias toward them.

The ones who don't know what this words mean, is you guys.

You've been part of the Yamao shit talk and said numerous times she has 0 chance and people are dumb for thinking so. That and the point you conveniently glossed over about calling people names is why you're also toxic. I don't understand how you can say otherwise besides your arrogance saying you're the only one allowed to be special.

I've NEVER been a part of the Yamato shit talk, I love the character. When I say YamaO it's not a way to be direspectful to the character it's a way for you to be remembered that she was called YamaO Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't use toxicity, I use direct confrontation.
Scratch that, calling you pidgeon might actually be a little bit toxic .. so I'll try to avoid that from now on..

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2022

Here we go again...

Just a reminder to everyone, be careful clicking external links...

You have the choice not to click, I did explained what this link was so the only problem here is in your head.

 

[jordin]

@Pot Goblin As the others said, you gave a reasonable outlook on Carrot despite if I disagree with some areas. You made a better case for her in a day or two than C4N has done in months.

It's honestly not impossible for Carrot to be a special case as you said since Oda follows no strict pattern with SHs. They used to all be teens then Chopper joined. They used to never to be villains until Robin joined. They had a whole story arc before they asked then Brook asked right away. Our last one took multiple arcs and a decade to finally join. Point being that no one can truly right her off from being special.

The problem I have is that there is a consistent pattern that they all have and what we use to point at Yamato. With every recruit, they're majorly involved in the plot, a flashback is there for us to see their struggle, and Luffy is the one to free them from their chains. In the arc they join, it feels like them and Luffy have a special dynamic that's meant to last. Even if you could stretch Carrot to fit these, its a struggle to do so and less apparent than the others.

Yamato is a lot safer of a bet with the majority since she easily checks off these boxes without effort. She's the main character of Wano alongside Momo. Her flashback shows how she was chained for 20 years being abused by her dad and forced to be alone. Luffy and her have a special relationship through Ace and the fact that she waited years for him to save her. The nail in the coffin is that Yamato blatantly says she wants to sail with Luffy, which no character in the series has said without joining.

Obviously one character's chances don't affect another's. Carrot would still be low in the community even if Yamato didn't exist since these same arguments would still be in place. I'm just running off my assumption that only 1 SH is left so I have to compare here.

Yes, this is an objective fact. The fact that you don't see this fact doesn't make them disapear from the story my dude.. I don't call you unintelligent, I call you pidgeon, pidgeon have their own reasonning and intelligence, and it it to destroy the check game when put on it.. just because it's what they do.. but you can actually train pidgeon.. and that's what I'm trying to do..

So yeah.. for once, it's not very nice from me.. but it doesn't not come out of nowhere.. let me remind you that the majority of you you included, are calling me a troll, a fool, someone even used the word turd I think.. so you will understand that I'm just mirroring your behaviors..

I will be nicer the moment I'll see some respect.

Secondly, I'm not a storytelling deity, trust if it was the case I would not be here, but I do have some knowledge that (SOME of) you don't have. Why can I say that? Because of the way some of you react when I'm making high end storytelling points

Someone who know how storytelling work wouldn't laugh when I say that Carrot's conflict has not been resolved yet because of what Perospero is saying.. they might discuss the point, make counter argument or even go deeperinto the analysis.. but they wouldn't laugh at the point.

I would actually be thankfull to have a discussion about each of the point I'm making about the craft of One Piece, but that's IF there was actually some understanding in front of me.. Here there is (almost) none.

"The shining Nakama action" is indeed a neologism. It's a term I invented to describe something present in the story. You can discuss the terminology I use .. yes. But you can't discuss the existence of what this neologism is describing and said pattern in the story, when I bring you evidences of it. But here.. none only are you dismissing the evidences, but you (as a group) are dismissing my actual work on it. Did you see the movie "don"t look up" ? Well I have the same feeling as those scientist.. gladly, there is no comet heading our way.




That's not what I'm saying at all. I say that those who think Yamato is joining over Carrot are reaching and that their is a bias toward Yamato. Quite different.

You can hate a character and still be bias toward them. Because of context, because of how the character reaches to you.. there are a lot of factor.. hating someone doesn't negate your bias toward them.

The ones who don't know what this words mean, is you guys.




I've NEVER been a part of the Yamato shit talk, I love the character. When I say YamaO it's not a way to be direspectful to the character it's a way for you to be remembered that she was called YamaO Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't use toxicity, I use direct confrontation.

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2022

You have the choice not to click, and and explain what this link was so the only problem here is in your head.

You're a lost cause and I give up trying to be rational to you. Just continue being the fuel for why people are more anti Carrot. You did a good job already by making @Gaimon The Pirate go from neutral to against her in less than a day. Have fun trying to "educate" the same people with the same arguments they made clear they don't agree with. Maybe the next day they'll magically change their mind.

 

[Staticshadic]

@Pot Goblin As the others said, you gave a reasonable outlook on Carrot despite if I disagree with some areas. You made a better case for her in a day or two than C4N has done in months.

It's honestly not impossible for Carrot to be a special case as you said since Oda follows no strict pattern with SHs. They used to all be teens then Chopper joined. They used to never to be villains until Robin joined. They had a whole story arc before they asked then Brook asked right away. Our last one took multiple arcs and a decade to finally join. Point being that no one can truly right her off from being special.

The problem I have is that there is a consistent pattern that they all have and what we use to point at Yamato. With every recruit, they're majorly involved in the plot, a flashback is there for us to see their struggle, and Luffy is the one to free them from their chains. In the arc they join, it feels like them and Luffy have a special dynamic that's meant to last. Even if you could stretch Carrot to fit these, its a struggle to do so and less apparent than the others.

Yamato is a lot safer of a bet with the majority since she easily checks off these boxes without effort. She's the main character of Wano alongside Momo. Her flashback shows how she was chained for 20 years being abused by her dad and forced to be alone. Luffy and her have a special relationship through Ace and the fact that she waited years for him to save her. The nail in the coffin is that Yamato blatantly says she wants to sail with Luffy, which no character in the series has said without joining.

Obviously one character's chances don't affect another's. Carrot would still be low in the community even if Yamato didn't exist since these same arguments would still be in place. I'm just running off my assumption that only 1 SH is left so I have to compare here.

You're a lost cause and I give up trying to be rational to you. Just continue being the fuel for why people are more anti Carrot. You did a good job already by making @Gaimon The Pirate go from neutral to against her in less than a day. Have fun trying to "educate" the same people with same arguments they made clear they don't agree with. Maybe the next day they'll magically change their mind.

Couldn't say it better myself way to go.

 

[Logiko]

@Pot Goblin As the others said, you gave a reasonable outlook on Carrot despite if I disagree with some areas. You made a better case for her in a day or two than C4N has done in months.

Let's all stop being hypocrits.. the only reason your are listening to @Pot Goblin is because they didn't enter the forum denouncing the toxicity toward Carrot.

So I'm glad you are actually listening to them (for once) but don't explain that it's because they are making better point, when they are making the exact same point I make (with some exception)

The truth is you people don't like to be attacked on your values. But this won't stop me from calling out the toxicity toward Carrot.

It's honestly not impossible for Carrot to be a special case as you said since Oda follows no strict pattern with SHs. They used to all be teens then Chopper joined. They used to never to be villains until Robin joined. They had a whole story arc before they asked then Brook asked right away. Our last one took multiple arcs and a decade to finally join. Point being that no one can truly right her off from being special.

indeed.

The problem I have is that there is a consistent pattern that they all have and what we use to point at Yamato. With every recruit, they're majorly involved in the plot, a flashback is there for us to see their struggle, and Luffy is the one to free them from their chains. In the arc they join, it feels like them and Luffy have a special dynamic that's meant to last. Even if you could stretch Carrot to fit these, its a struggle to do so and less apparent than the others.

Not really, for example, in the case of Franky, Luffy didn't freed him from his chains.. He did it by himself.

Yamato is a lot safer of a bet with the majority since she easily checks off these boxes without effort. She's the main character of Wano alongside Momo. Her flashback shows how she was chained for 20 years being abused by her dad and forced to be alone. Luffy and her have a special relationship through Ace and the fact that she waited years for him to save her. The nail in the coffin is that Yamato blatantly says she wants to sail with Luffy, which no character in the series has said without joining.

A missconception is that Carrot checks the box of the flashback.. This is wrong. The flashback of Yamato is NOT enough (for now), it's lacks multiple narrative parameters that all the flashbacks had (basically the setup for the needs and the moral pillar).

Obviously one character's chances don't affect another's. Carrot would still be low in the community even if Yamato didn't exist since these same arguments would still be in place. I'm just running off my assumption that only 1 SH is left so I have to compare here.

Actually Carrot was high before the apparition of Yamato.

You're a lost cause and I give up trying to be rational to you. Just continue being the fuel for why people are more anti Carrot. You did a good job already by making @Gaimon The Pirate go from neutral to against her in less than a day. Have fun trying to "educate" the same people with same arguments they made clear they don't agree with. Maybe the next day they'll magically change their mind.

As you wish. This won't stop me from debatting here.

If you are anti Carrot because of a fan, it only show that you don't have a strong opinion, nothing more as it is an illogical behavior.

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

See.. That's exactly what I'm pointing at @Sigran101... I make high end storytelling points and they are receive with laughter. That's why after a while I have the impression to talk with pigeon who loves making theories.. but don't know a single things about characters characterization and storytelling..

@JoSeungHun7335 Dude.. Do you think that the fact I said that Carrot main conflict right now is sea was not thought through? Perospero was a storytelling tool to introduced Carrot's main conflict, he was not THE conflict. But you 'd need to actually understand how characterization work to comprehend that point.. so let me explain it to you for the last time:

Carrot WHOLE characterization revolves around the wonder of the seas and her naivety in front of it. Like I explained earlier, the death of Pedro was a big blow on all of this. "Suddenly, the sea that is so wonderful can take my friend, I don't understand", that what you would actually hear if you were in Carrot's head at that moment. Perospero understood that, and called out Carrot's naivety in front of the danger of the sea. And that why it was so important for Carrot to be defeated(or to struggle) here. Carrot needed to be put in front of her own dillema:

"Do I love the sea enough to accept it's danger?"

That's why Perospero is not (right now) the main conflict of Carrot, it's the sea, and all that the sea can bring to Carrot. (Perospero could become the representation of the danger of the sea for Carrot, but that's not the case right now)

So, the next time you laugh at what I say, try at least to understand the concepts behind it. Thanks you in advance.


And for that last point: I'll AGAIN (for the THIRD time) copy this here:

Concerning your question “why it has to be special for Carrot’s case?” I already answered it here.

(i'm quoting myself)"

Good question. Why the tenth would not have a backstory (a story set in the past), why Carrot would need to have a "special" treatment?

Because of three things:

- Time
- Context
- Story lengh

Those three parameters put together are making the next Nakama as one of the most important revelation we will get in the next dozens of chapters. The hype, the fans theories, thefanbase.. everything is on another level right now.. that's why I think the revelation of the next crewmember should be as surprising as possible.

Remember, backstories are just a tool, what Oda is really working with is something far deeper that that. And that "matter" doesn't need to be set in the past. It can be setup in the present. again read my link where I talk about this in detail. (this is from my blog, i won't copy past my article here, it would be too much)
"

In other word, the next Nakama needs to be a great revelation and the context is so different now from back then (10 years ago) that Oda might need to change slighly the pattern in order to surprise the reader.

And still your answer has nothing to do about the story. Instead of saying “it’s written in the manga from chapter X and etc” you say “I think” which means that is your theory and opinion, not based on facts. “Surprise factor” has nothing to do with what Oda has written so far. He has always followed the pattern, and you don’t even explain why Oda needs to do “surprise factor” for Carrot only, while you never mentioned what makes her “special” for Oda to do the surprise factor.

And for the record, I still stand with my point that you’re a whole circus. You can keep being delusional, and we can keep laughing at you. It’s a win win solution. If you’re triggered that we’re laughing at you, I pretty much missed the part where that’s my problem.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

And still your answer has nothing to do about the story. Instead of saying “it’s written in the manga from chapter X and etc” you say “I think” which means that is your theory and opinion, not based on facts. “Surprise factor” has nothing to do with what Oda has written so far. He has always followed the pattern, and you don’t even explain why Oda needs to do “surprise factor” for Carrot only, while you never mentioned what makes her “special” for Oda to do the surprise factor.

And for the record, I still stand with my point that you’re a whole circus. You can keep being delusional, and we can keep laughing at you. It’s a win win solution. If you’re triggered that we’re laughing at you, I pretty much missed the part where that’s my problem.

JoSeungHun7335 goes nuclear.

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

JoSeungHun7335 goes nuclear.