Who will be the next Strawhat


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and oda won't write another robin case in there
Just saying Oda won't do it without giving a reason means nothing. I can just say he will.
Yamato is a conqueror she will lead her own crew
Zoro is a conqueror but he's right under Luffy's flag. Roger and WB had plenty of COC users on their crew too. Not to mention that Yamato hates the beast pirates. The few that showed her passion were all killed and she's been doing nothing but beating them up in the present.
 

Peroroncino

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Just saying Oda won't do it without giving a reason means nothing. I can just say he will.

Zoro is conqueror but he's right under Luffy's flag. Roger and WB had plenty of COC users on their crew too. Not to mention that Yamato hates the beast pirates. The few that showed her passion were all killed and she's been doing nothing but beating them up in the present.
zoro is a unique case since oda constantly has people ask why he's not the captain.
That's oda's way of saying zoro could lead his own crew if he wanted, you really think the SHs will have 2 characters with the same gimmick?
 
zoro is a unique case since oda constantly has people ask why he's not the captain.
That's oda's way of saying zoro could lead his own crew if he wanted, you really think the SHs will have 2 characters with the same gimmick?
No because Yamato and Zoro are completely different characters. Zoro's attitude, strength and leadership is what makes people question his status. Yamato wouldn't be showing that at all.
 

Peroroncino

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No because Yamato and Zoro are completely different characters. Zoro's attitude, strength and leadership is what makes people question his status. Yamato wouldn't be showing that at all.
it's definitely about coc, whitebeard said it's bad to get many coc users in one crew as he learned on rocks.
Zoro also hinted at this by saying too many captains will sink a ship.
 
it's definitely about coc, whitebeard said it's bad to get many coc users in one crew as he learned on rocks.
For one, Zoro was being questioned as the captain even before he had coc. Another is that Roger had a ship with multiple coc users and his ship was fine. WB was referring to Oden's attitude and how he didn't seem like the type to take orders. That falls in line with the rocks crew since it was filled with people fighting for leadership and not willing to work together.
Zoro also hinted at this by saying too many captains will sink a ship.
Zoro was talking about too many people trying to take control of the situation. That's why he decided to take a knee and let things play out. Also Coc =/= Captain.
 

Peroroncino

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For one, Zoro was being questioned as the captain even before he had coc. Another is that Roger had a ship with multiple coc users and his ship was fine. WB was referring to Oden's attitude and how he didn't seem like the type to take orders. That falls in line with the rocks crew since it was filled with people fighting for leadership and not willing to work together.

Zoro was talking about too many people trying to take control of the situation. That's why he decided to take a knee and let things play out. Also Coc =/= Captain.
he was being questioned before because those were hints for him having coc.
and you say WB was referring to something else but everytime this is brought up it's to a coc user.
 
Okay.. I will explain you a concept I call "Subversion dialogue" don't search it on internet, it's a neologism I created to explain a storytelling trick with (strangely) no name yet. What I will do here is basically copy pasting my article.. This time, it's important that you really understand what it's all about, so for once, you will see an entire analysis. Let's begin:


Subversion dialogues

"Subversion dialogues" are storytelling tools that helps the author lead the reader's mindset where they wants them to be while preparing and helping the diligent readers with little hints, to predict what is really to come in the future. In short. You can see "Subversion dialogues" as diversion tool.

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- On chapter 216, Luffy says this: "Vivi is coming!! Let's drop anchor and go look for her!! She's gotta be here!!"

This line from Luffy is giving us the expectation that Vivi is gonna join and that we just have to go search for her in order for this to happen. Sadly, we know (now) that Vivi will not join. In fact what Oda did here is trying to subvert our expectations. His goal was to surprise us. So he made Luffy give us some hope only to take them back later on.

- On this other example on chapter 837, Luffy is angry at Crackers while speaking about Sanji: : (To crakers: "Don't insult Sanji!! Even if he's too happy to want to come back... he would NEVER speak to us like that")

With this line, Luffy is giving us the expectation that Sanji would never speak to Luffy with an insult even if Sanji is too happy to stay with Pudding. Sadly, we now know that Sanji will indeed speak to Luffy with an insult. For the simple reason that he is lost and this is the only way for him to make Luffy go away.


As you can see, those "moments" are the "I have a bad feeling about this" moments... The reason is simple : those are both "subversion dialogues". They are dialogue meant to divert us from the truth of the story in order to surprise us later.


Two type of subversion

There are two type of "subversion dialogue":

A "subversion dialogue" can come from a positive statement to arrive at a negative situation but a "subversion dialogue" can also come from a negative statement to arrive at a positive situation.

The two previous "subversion dialogues" (Luffy speaking about Vivi and Luffy speaking about Sanji) were positive statement meant to arrive at a nevative situation in other word those were :

Positive > to > negative subversion dialogues

Here are some example of the opposite: Negative >.to > Positive subversion dialogue

- Chapter 816: (Franky: "If the samurai searching for Raizo should happen across the Mink, then surely disaster will result!!!!")

In this first example, Oda is leading us to believe the Mink will kill the samourai. So we are worried. But this is not what will happen, in fact the Samourai will get well welcomed. This is an example of a "subversion dialogue" coming from a negative statement to arrive at a positive situation.

- Chapter 880: (Nami to Luffy (about the Wanji tsunami: "Hello? ... Sorry Luffy.. We might... not make it")

In this other example Nami (and Oda) are leading us to believe that there is no way out of this situation. They will all get crush by this tsunami wave and die. Of course now we know that this is not what happened. Jinbe used the ship to enter the green room.

Those type of "diversion dialogues" (Negative > to > positive) are mostly used in moments when there is a life or death situation. Those are the "oh sh*t!" moments. But they can be countered by the most careful readers. I will show you how.


-----

How to detect the subversion dialogue


There is a simple way to detect subversion dialogues. We must look at the premisse. If the premisse is corrupted, then this is most likely because the dialogue is subversif. To understand, let's look back at all of our examples:


- In the first one, Luffy says that Vivi is coming. But this premisse is corrupted by the fact that Vivi is a princess. She can't just go with pirates this easy, she has a duty. That's why Vivi can't come back to the crew.

- In the second example Luffy states that Sanji - even if happy about his situation- would never speaks to him that way. But this premisse is corrupted by a fact we already know in the story: Sanji is not happy at all, and he is taken hostage by his own family, he will have therefore no choice but to speak to Luffy in a bad way to make him go away.

- In the third example, we have the opposite : Franky and Cie told us that if the Samourai were found by the mink, they would be transformed into dead meat. But this premisse is corrupted also. Indeed, the Minks never told the crew that they hated the samourai. (Oda was sneaky enough to even make Kinemon and Kanjurou state that the mink would welcome them)

- In the last example, Nami is saying that there are done for. But there is one thing Nami doesn't know and that the best readers might have noticed: A wayve can be surfed on and Jinbe is a Helmsman and a fishman, there is surely no wayve too big for him.




As you can see, once a premisse is corrupted, it is most likely because of the presence of a subversion dialogue.

Of course, most of the subversion dialogues are not so easy to notice, that why authors can play with our minds so easily. Most often, they are noticable after the action. But sometime, it's possible. You will see why this is important in the following ...


---and the following ---


The demand

This is one of the most frequent arguments in favor of Yamato. The argument is as follow:

"Yamato asked Luffy to join, this is therefore a foreshadow to the recruitment of Yamato in the crew."

Well.. This is where things gets interesting. Because the fact is, that demand is not a foreshadow, in fact it's not even a demand at all.

- This argument ignores the fact that Yamato didn't asked Luffy, she affirmed that because Luffy was the brother of Ace, she would therefore have a place on the ship. But remember, Luffy don't like being push around and this is false logic.

Yamato's "you should be giving me a ride on your ship" is a false promise (for the fan) from a Positive > to > a Negative and a Negative > to > a positive (for the character of Yamato). (You guessed it, this is a form of subversion dialogue)

The hint for the corruption of the promise is as follow: Yamato wants to go on the ship for the wrong reasons (not for Luffy but by simple "logic") and she doesn't ask, she states.

Imagine any other character having the same statement ("you should be giving me a ride on your ship") it would be clear that this is a false promise.

This is why I think that by understanding what she really wants, Yamato will change her goal and might realise that there is no need for her to go. A good reader of One Piece will know that all the Nakama will follow Luffy because of him first. That why here, The story hints us that Yamato is kinda lying to herself.

This "subversion dialogue" shows us two things:

- What Yamato said to Luffy won't happen, even if she becomes Nakama, that won't be for those reasons! So and even if it's still possible, the integration of Yamato to the crew is still unlikely.

- Oda is still playing with the "nakama" card and what better way to plan the surprise of the integration of a new crew member, that to make us believe another member will join.

-------

And here you have it. A clear and detailed explanation for this little dialogue.
The reason Oda made Yamato say is can be for two:

- Oda intend to make Yamato change her mind. That would put a twist on her story to make it more believable.
- Oda wanted to divert us from the character he really want to integrate into the crew
While there's some really good knowledge of literary techniques here, this all rides entirely on the premise that Yamato joining the crew because of Ace is a corrupted concept, and I fundementally disagree with that.
 
While there's some really good knowledge of literary techniques here, this all rides entirely on the premise that Yamato joining the crew because of Ace is a corrupted concept, and I fundementally disagree with that.
And it also runs off the logic that Yamato did not care about who Luffy was as a person, just that he's Ace's brother. This is inherently wrong given what we see in the flashback and present.

In the Ace flashback, Luffy's true dream left her speechless and in tears. She said to Ace that his little brother is incredible. Before that, Ace went on and on about Luffy to the point that she questioned why he's talking about him so much. Point being that she got a good idea of who he is and was amazed by him before they even met thanks to Ace.

Then in the present, Luffy continued to live up and surpass all she heard about him. He freed her of her chains she thought was impossible to break. He impressed her in their fight and knew he was holding back. After getting a better impression of him, she's even willing to bet he'll come back to beat Kaido after he was already defeated by him. Saying Yamato is just going off of Luffy being Ace's brother undermines all he did that convinced her to believe in him.
 
And it also runs off the logic that Yamato did not care about who Luffy was as a person, just that he's Ace's brother. This is inherently wrong given what we see in the flashback and present.

In the Ace flashback, Luffy's true dream left her speechless and in tears. She said to Ace that his little brother is incredible. Before that, Ace went on and on about Luffy to the point that she questioned why he's talking about him so much. Point being that she got a good idea of who he is and was amazed by him before they even met thanks to Ace.

Then in the present, Luffy continued to live up and surpass all she heard about him. He freed her of her chains she thought was impossible to break. He impressed her in their fight and knew he was holding back. After getting a better impression of him, she's even willing to bet he'll come back to beat Kaido after he was already defeated by him. Saying Yamato is just going off of Luffy being Ace's brother undermines all he did that convinced her to believe in him.
I also don't understand why people discount the gravity of Luffy being able to fulfill the promise that Ace couldn't. The response to that point is always "He wouldn't care" or "that's not his problem". Since when does Luffy not care about Ace's wishes? That's exactly the kind of thing that motivates Luffy.
 
Thanks @Mods finally some action.
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- Luffy and the others already changed her life by giving her the strenght to get out of her confort zone. But a personnal conflict NEEDS to be solved by the character, and that's what I'm interested in right now.

- Carrot did not talk about the Dawn yet, but it's in the subtext of her character arc.

- Yes, you can look at Carrot's lack of presence in Wano but it doesn't change anything about what happen in whole cake. In other words, take that as a scale.

Carrot begun at 0 of importance on Zou.. then went up to 10 in Whole cake.. The fact that the importance of Carrot in Wano is 2 or 3 doesn't change the number at the end. Do you understand ? in a story like One Piece you can't just erease the importance of a character because this character was not present in a single arc. in fact you should instead ask yourself WHY this character was not present. And the answer might surprise you.. literrally.

- Yes all we need for Carrot, now, is for her to sneak on the ship, nothing more. And that's a narrative fact.

- There IS a personnal conflict written in subtext with Carrot right now. I've talk about it long enough right above those post.

- Carrot's ennemy is not Perospero, it's the danger of the seas.
If this isnt the biggest load of BS I've heard all day
..danger of the seas..:milaugh:

Luffy changes alot of characters lives the problem is how to differentiate it from a side character and a strawhat.
so now all luffy has to do is get a person out of their "comfort zone" to be enough of a personal conflict to join the crew?:suresure:

Luffy did to shirahoshi what you say he did to carrot WAY BETTER...
and where is shirahoshi now?

When it comes to crewmates..like I and many others have said...

*Luffy had to defeat axe hand morgan and helmeppo for Zoro
*Luffy had to defeat arlong for nami
*Luffy had to defeat Kuro for Usopp
*Luffy had to defeat Kreig for Sanji
*Luffy had to defeat wapol for chopper
*Luffy had to defeat croco-boy and cp9 for Robin
*Luffy had to defeat Cp9 for franky
*Luffy had to defeat Moria for brook
*Luffy had to defeat Arlong and Hody for jinbe
.....
Luffy had to defeat. no..wait...
*Nekomamushi had to defeat perospero for carrot?
and perosperro isn't even a MAIN antagonist..
Luffy defeats MAIN arc villians for his crewmates so please stop with that "enemy of the seas" Bullcrap.:seriously:

Yamato has a one-up on this because Luffys gonna defeat kaido.
 
I also don't understand why people discount the gravity of Luffy being able to fulfill the promise that Ace couldn't. The response to that point is always "He wouldn't care" or "that's not his problem". Since when does Luffy not care about Ace's wishes? That's exactly the kind of thing that motivates Luffy.
It's exactly what Oda has been showing too. There's been parallels of Ace's Wano journey being wrapped up by Luffy since the arc started. He's finishing up the Tama thread by fulfilling the promise to give her food and the Kaido thread by beating him. The only one left that Ace couldn't do was bring Yamato on his ship.
 
It's exactly what Oda has been showing too. There's been parallels of Ace's Wano journey being wrapped up by Luffy since the arc started. He's finishing up the Tama thread by fulfilling the promise to give her food and the Kaido thread by beating him. The only one left that Ace couldn't do was bring Yamato on his ship.
Not to mention Marco and Izo fighting alongside him to save Wano just like they wanted to with Ace.
 
Just a piece of advice, don't make simple things complicated... Yamato is already "signed" and "sealed", waiting to be "delivered"...

zoro is a unique case since oda constantly has people ask why he's not the captain.
Unique case? Sounds familiar... :risicheck:

it's definitely about coc, whitebeard said it's bad to get many coc users in one crew as he learned on rocks.
How many exactly is considered "many"?

Even if this were true, Oden joined his ship anyway and they were fine. WB was 100% referring to his attitude since his specific complaint was that Oden didn't seem like he'd take orders from someone. He forced Ace to join his crew despite knowing he had coc too.
This...
 
Well, when you put it that way... :usoprice:

Real talk though, I think I'm going to take the L on the 3 main points for now :cheers: partially because I would like to move on to other topics and partially because I'm not feeling motivated to look through WCI and Wano to look for answers as of right now. And mostly because I may not be able to find a proper answer until Carrot makes another move in Wano, and that's something that seems dubious at best right now. If Carrot starts having a conflict with the BMI pirates on Wano then I'll bring this argument back and try to close the loop properly. If I can do that then I feel like I could also give a real connection on why exactly Oda made her pattern unique to other Straw Hats, to justify why Oda would give her a "slight twist". But we'll have to see if Carrot even gets a chance to interact with the BMI pirates.

I can however give my opinion on future developments, though I will preface by saying that it's only a theory right now. I'm not sure of the specifics but what Carrot would have to do to not be a hindrance to the crew is to get a power-up that sheds the disadvantages of Sulong. It's a lot like how Nami's disadvantage with her stick in Alabasta turned into an advantage when she received the Clima Tact.

I actually touched on this before but I can see this power-up happening in Wano due to a potential Rule of 3 situation. And two potential connectors with all of them being Sulong's luck-based downside and Perospero. The pages you see here come from chapters 1006, 1026, and 1027.






1st page is the first point in the rule of 3. Carrot and Wanda are doing fine against Perospero but luck is against them and they lose their Sulong, resulting in their loss. I will label this as Carrot's Ruin. Two other important keys here are that Perospero personally humiliates her about the fight and Pedro in general and that we see Pedro telling Carrot to "keep moving forward." It's also important to note that Wanda has nothing to do with this scene, all the focus is on Carrot.

2nd page is the second point in the rule of 3 when the luck-based downside of Sulong is reinforced, Nekomamushi is about to lose exactly as Carrot did. But on the 3rd page, the moon comes back out just in time allowing Nekomamushi to barely scrape out a win against Perospero. This is an example of what you meant when you mentioned Blackbeard. To control the moon is to control the battle, even someone stronger as Nekomamushi can easily lose a fight if luck is not on his side. It is important to note that Carrot is witnessing this happening in front of her.

5th page is the aftermath of Nekomamushi's battle with Perospero, Carrot gleefully hugs him while Nekomamushi says that she needs to be careful she doesn't turn Sulong. In my opinion that is a reminder to the audience that Carrot is not down and out just yet, she can still fight. I will label this as Carrot's Recovery. Once again, there is only focus on Carrot with no consideration of Wanda's presence.

Now there's only one more point that needs to be discovered which would potentially have something with overcoming Sulong and eventually lead to what I would call Carrot's Redemption. What follows is pure theory with no confirmation so take what I say here with a grain of salt. As for how it will involve Perospero, I would say that it will not be in a 1v1 combat role but more of a Spandam type shit talker/commander role considering his injuries. I'm not quite sure how it will happen if it's even possible, but I see a situation where Perospero regroups with the BMI pirates and causes trouble. Which would lead to Carrot's redeeming moment and finally tie the loop on WCI.

:steef:

And then I wake up... :josad:


I will say though that all of my arguments about Carrot are not ones that would have her join over Yamato, I've been making arguments trying to justify why she could potentially join alongside Yamato. @jordin put it perfectly in their response to my earlier message. If it's 1 on 1, bet on Yamato. I have some potential talking points about her, but I'm not here trying to prove that Carrot is somehow going to beat out Yamato given the current circumstances. I'm not sure if it changes much, but just know that my focus here is almost completely on Carrot.

:sanmoji:
I really appreciate your theories and opinions, especially since you don’t force them to everybody’s throat. Extra points also for not being boastful. Your arguments are pretty much very interesting to read, and although we have some differences from each other’s point of view, I really must appreciate your efforts.
:cheers:

You don’t have to worry anyway, as I also like another less potential nakama: Monet. Many people don’t like her, but it’s okay since people have differences. And I don’t need to force my opinions and being boastful about her from my point of view to make me look smarter, right?

I also agree that Yamato is pretty much set in the stone. The story itself is developing that way. It’s either Yamato alone, Yamato and Carrot, or none; not the other way around. If Carrot joined, she would have been like a bonus for acquiring Yamato. But again, Oda has given everything that should’ve been what Carrot has to Yamato, that Yamato doesn’t need slight twist to be a Straw Hat.

Oda even gives Yamato massive powerset so he doesn’t have to give Yamato plot armor, which what he usually does to the weak trio. Not gonna lie when you say “luck”, it’s pretty much plot armor, and I personally think Oda shouldn’t rely too much on plot armor. Even with the capable fighters of the crew, Oda has given slight plot armor for each of them, for example: Black Maria was revealed to be a haki user. But Oda didn’t make her able to use haki, and defeated by Robin who (currently) is not a haki user. Then again it goes back to because Oda doesn’t want to rely too much plot armor, he gave everything Carrot should have to Yamato. Carrot is like beta-test for Yamato; that Oda gives the many better versions of Carrot into Yamato.

An example of this perfectly is Vivi. Vivi’s fighting skill only revolves around Peacock String. Her fighting skill is really hard to develop which makes her need massive plot armor. That’s why Oda gave us Robin, whose power is DF based, and has numerical mentions in her skill (dos, tres, cien, etc) which means Oda intended for Robin to join & make her easier to develop, since numerical is pretty much infinite.

Then again if Oda really intended for Carrot to join, he wouldn’t have to create Yamato who has everything Carrot should have, right? It’s like we should think about it logically.
 
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