General & Others Oda's Obsession With Originality and Shockvalue And Why The Story Suffers

#41
No limits
Only if the arc is long for no reason
Wano arc will be at least 130 chapter
Say untill the fight end 20 chapter
And 10 chapters to the secrets of ponyglyph and kuzoki clan
some guys talk about being long as a bad thing
The chemira ant arc and dressrosa etc
I really dont care about the length
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But in the anime wano pacing is real shit
Lmfao "no limit". I am done dude. Exactly what a fanboy would say. How old are you btw? Just wondering.
 
#44
I feel like the writing of the Post Time Skip could truly be much better if Oda wasn't so obsessed with always being original or subverting reader expectations. The story suffers greatly because he chooses to focus on shocking the readers and remaining unpredictable rather than constructing a natural narrative which is free from cheap attention grabbing tactics.
Except that's not really the case?

If anything, Oda is being just as straightforward as his always been with his narratives.

Oda isn't trying to be original, and its kind of funny to think that people are saying that he is, when his being pretty much as basic as his always been.
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I won't go into detail on the countless instances where Haki renders the plot incoherent or unbelievable because there are already countless discussions on it. what I want to focus on is Oda's conscious choice of keeping Haki very ambiguous. He keeps Haki ambiguous for the same reason he changes his plot when fans figure out whats going to happen and for the same reason he keeps characters silhouettes or chooses to show their feet instead of just showing them even though witholding them ultimately adds nothing to the plot. That is, for the sake of avoiding banality, remaining unpredictable and to "shock" the readers.

It's clear that Haki is not a concept that Oda had fully solidified until the time skip but it does not excuse the ambiguity that surrounds a power system that has been an integral aspect of combat and plot resolution the past decade. Oda is creative and talented enough to sit down and provide clear and concise details regarding Haki. I say concise here because I know that walls of exposition is not everyone's cup of tea. I personally love long detailed and meticulous explanations of powers and mechanics. For example, the panel below is infamous in and out of the H x H fanbase but panels like that get me excited. I love info dumps. "I want everything explained to me or nothing at all"
You didn't give any examples of how haki makes the plot incoherent despite claiming so multiple times.
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To put it bluntly, Oda keeps Haki opened ended and ambiguous because it's crutch. When the situation deteriorates and Luffy finds himself in with his back against the wall, Oda can always turn to an unforeseen aspect of Haki to give Luffy the power he needs to overcome his opponent. We see this last chapter where without very little prompt, Luffy becomes capable of imbuing COC into his attacks. I have no issue with Luffy doing so. I take issue because it comes out of thin air. There is no slow progression leading to his epiphany, it just happened. We the readers are forced to accept the result because we had no expectation of what Conquerors Haki does beyond overpowering the weak willed.

I'm sure that moment created "hype" and excitement for many but that hype to me is empty. To me, exciting moments are exciting when there is substance backing those moments. Luffy's realization about COC was not exciting to me because there was no build up. It simply just happened and a cheap flashback was enough to trigger growth.In the same vein, Luffy's victory over Katakuri did not excite me because whatever build up that occurred was rushed and was incoherent due to the thick wall of plot protection and plot induced stupidity imposed on the whole scenario.
This is a kind of funny example, because there absolutely has been a crap ton of stuff leading up to this moment. I think that's more of a you problem than necessarily a problem with how Oda revealed it."

Same shit can be said for your jab at the Katakuri fight, which were both scenes that went out of their way to explain stuff.

They are moments that actually have far more build up than stuff like Zoro learning to cut Mr 1 in the heat of battle, or Luffy creating gear 2nd and 3rd on the fly.
 
#46
"but oda if it took luffy 2 weeks to learn the basics of advanced armament how did he just use advanced kings?!"....hype!.
I am sorry but what he learned actually was an application of CoC using haki flow mechanics he has learnt in Udon...
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Anyways the only problem is irrelevant characters like scabbards getting hell lot of screentime......no side character in any arc got this much panel time than anyone.....
 
#47
Anyways the only problem is irrelevant characters like scabbards getting hell lot of screentime......no side character in any arc got this much panel time than anyone.....
Um, Vivi exists. We spent a crap ton of time with Tom's workers as well during Water 7 as well. The scabbards are the emotional backbone of the arc, and Oda does focus on side characters a crap ton. Again, like Vivi.
 
#48
To me, the big problem with timeskip, is how Oda handle and giving importance to characters who people dont care a fuck about them.

Just imagine if Pagaya, Conis, Jhonny y Yosaku, etc. have the same amount of wasted chapters for boring characters or long flashbacks like Rebecca, Kyros, Rikku, etc.

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Another example is Yamato. Im having nothing against her, but if in the ends she not joining, im gonna be very upset for those wasted panels and a posible long flashback,if that happen ¿she has importance for the porpouse of what ? only for being the younkou child or wank Oden? at least if she join to SH, that ammount of panels are justificated.
 
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#49
Um, Vivi exists. We spent a crap ton of time with Tom's workers as well during Water 7 as well. The scabbards are the emotional backbone of the arc, and Oda does focus on side characters a crap ton. Again, like Vivi.
No, Vivi got solid focus however her character was written well and could perfectly blend with straw hats adventure along the way and ...we spent a crap ton of time with tom workers but not at an expense of straw hats....moreover, Oda didn't write properly to get emotionally connect to the scabbards.....
 
#50
No, Vivi got solid focus however her character was written well and could perfectly blend with straw hats adventure along the way and ...we spent a crap ton of time with tom workers but not at an expense of straw hats....moreover, Oda didn't write properly to get emotionally connect to the scabbards.....
I don't think we've ever spent time with the scabbards at the expense of the strawhats. They are simply the emotional backbone of the arc, so it makes sense that they'd have such a significant presence.

If anything, Oda has sort of reduced their presence more than I'd expected. And I'd say that Oda has done a really good job with established the scabbards(though this could just be because I've watched the anime, which does a good job of higlighting the scabbards in engaging ways, Ashura and Kawamatsu's backstories in the anime come to mind as being particularly well executed).
 
#51
Oda continues to add more dumb concepts of haki that the fanbase eats up for some reason
What new concept of haki was introduced?
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Why believe him? Actually critique his words since Oda has lied so many times. Him saying "he likes it" means "it makes more money". Silhouettes are meant to hide aspects which isn't the case majority of the time with Oda, so why does he do it? He does it because he knows it sells. Create this "fake" hype by drawing Silhouttes in order to have those 14-15 year old males engaged. What is sad is that it isn't just 14-15 year olds, it is literally males in their 20's eating this up.
I don't like the silhouettes either, but the fact is that as long as Oda is writing the manga it will never stop you just live with it.
 
#53
The only thing I have to say about post timeskip that are bad are skipped fights and sexualizing the female characters which wasn't done pre timeskip as much.

Oda seems to have corrected the skipped fights, or maybe he's only showing the rooftop fight because Luffy is there.

Those two are the only things I'd complain about.
 
#54
Sabody Archipaelgo, Amazon Lily, Impel Down, Marine Ford and Ace/Luffy flashback COMBINED took less time than Wano alone. Slow is an understatement lol. Oda is trying to make as much money as possible and he isn't even hiding it anymore. Longer arcs, more fanservice, bigger chests on women, etc. It is evident money is the motivation.
Chimera ant is longer than Wano and is still good. And I don't see people saying chimera ant is bad because it is longer than the rest of HxH combined. Chimera ant took 9 years to write.
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To me, the big problem with timeskip, is how Oda handle and giving importance to characters who people dont care a fuck about them.

Just imagine if Pagaya, Conis, Jhonny y Yosaku, etc. have the same amount of wasted chapters for boring characters or long flashbacks like Rebecca, Kyros, Rikku, etc.

----0----

Another example is Yamato. Im having nothing against her, but if in the ends she not joining, im gonna be very upset for those wasted panels and a posible long flashback,if that happen ¿she has importance for the porpouse of what ? only for being the younkou child or wank Oden? at least if she join to SH, that ammount of panels are justificated.
I think pre-time skip Oda was much more controlled by his editors, like he wanted to make alabasta longer but was cut short. In post timeskip he has way more liberty to do what he wants that's why the arcs keep getting longer. It is a shame that the scabbards are still taking up panels after fighting Kaido, some should have died and the rest knocked out for the rest of the fight
 
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Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
#57
Well done Rossi. I won’t comment on too much as I think everything here was well said, with one exception:

Oda keeps Haki ambiguous for the same reason he changes his plot when fans figure out whats going to happen and for the same reason he keeps characters silhouettes or chooses to show their feet instead of just showing them even though witholding them ultimately adds nothing to the plot. That is, for the sake of avoiding banality, remaining unpredictable and to "shock" the readers.
I don’t think that is why Oda keeps Haki ambiguous.

Put simply, Oda keeps Haki ambiguous because he is not good enough of a writer to fully explain Haki now, and then write himself out of impossible situations in the future.

We’ve seen how Oda handles the impossible situations he writes himself into in the past, the man is straight up incapable of telling a good story without simply withholding information from the readers so that he can do whatever he wants to get himself out of trouble later.

Oda establishes that Sanji has exploding cuffs on, and if he tries to leave WCI, they’ll detonate. But shit...how do we get out of such an impossible situation? Meh, just have Reiji say they were fakes from the start.

Establish that Big Mom is going to have Jinbe roll the life-or-death wheel as a consequence for leaving her crew...how do we get out of such an impossible situation? Meh, just say that she didn’t make Jinbe roll it yet so that we can avoid any real consequence for Jinbe’s decisions.

Establish that Big Mom will obliterate the Baratie if Sanji doesn’t marry Pudding...how do we get out of such an impossible situation? Meh, just completely forget about it and never acknowledge that it happened again.

Introduce Whitebeard as a character who will fuck anyone up if they miss with his sons, but then can’t figure out why Whitebeard would not go to Wano after Kaido kills Oden? Meh, just say Whitebeard didn’t know Oden died after 20 years, or that they didn’t want to hurt civilians or some other bullshit.

This is a problem Oda has developed in recent years, the man creates interesting plot lines that seem impossible to solve...because they actually are impossible for Oda to solve. He writes himself into a situation so impossible that he doesn’t know how to get himself out of it, so he just dismissed the situation with some bullshit all together or forgets that he established it as a problem to begin with.

What does that have to do with Haki? Well, Haki let’s Oda get out of whatever impossible situation he wants to. Logia Devil Fruit users that are literally invincible? Meh, just create a power that makes them not invincible. Kizaru too fast? Meh, just create a power that makes him not-too fast. Kaido too durable? Fuck it, pull whatever nonsense out of your ass that makes him not too durable. These ass-pull solutions would become impossible if Oda fully explained what Haki was capable of from the start. Haki is ambiguous because Oda doesn’t even know what Haki is, Haki simply becomes whatever Oda needs it to be to get himself out of deep shit.

You said in the OP that Oda is a creative writer, but to me his writing problems stem from how uncreative he is. The story problems I described above require genuine ingenuity to solve, which Oda does not have. Everything about his story that fans misconstrue as him being a genius is likely shit he plagiarized from other writers anyway.

If Oda was creative, Haki would’ve never existed in the first place. It was a power invented so that Oda could stop pulling off unique fights like Luffy vs Croc or Luffy vs Enel, and Oda could just have Luffy defeat any opponent by punching them in the face rather than being truly creative in how Luffy (and other Haki users also) overcomes his obstacles.
 
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Doggo

Talent is something you make bloom.
#58
If Oda was creative, Haki would’ve never existed in the first place. It was a power invented so that Oda could stop pulling off unique fights like Luffy vs Croc or Luffy vs Enel, and Oda could just have Luffy defeat any opponent by punching them in the face rather than being truly creative in how Luffy (and other Haki users also) overcomes his obstacles.
Which kinda fucks up that declaration of his saying that "neither me or my viewers would be satisfied if Luffy's punch simply started working on Kaido".


:kayneshrug:
 
#59
Well done Rossi. I won’t comment on too much as I think everything here was well said, with one exception:



I don’t think that is why Oda keeps Haki ambiguous.

Put simply, Oda keeps Haki ambiguous because he is not good enough of a writer to fully explain Haki now, and then write himself out of impossible situations in the future.

We’ve seen how Oda handles the impossible situations he writes himself into in the past, the man is straight up incapable of telling a good story without simply withholding information from the readers so that he can do whatever he wants to get himself out of trouble later.

Oda establishes that Sanji has exploding cuffs on, and if he tries to leave WCI, they’ll detonate. But shit...how do we get out of such an impossible situation? Meh, just have Reiji say they were fakes from the start.

Establish that Big Mom is going to have Jinbe roll the life-or-death wheel as a consequence for leaving her crew...how do we get out of such an impossible situation? Meh, just say that she didn’t make Jinbe roll it yet so that we can avoid any real consequence for Jinbe’s decisions.

Establish that Big Mom will obliterate the Baratie if Sanji doesn’t marry Pudding...how do we get out of such an impossible situation? Meh, just completely forget about it and never acknowledge that it happened again.

Introduce Whitebeard as a character who will fuck anyone up if they miss with his sons, but then can’t figure out why Whitebeard would not go to Wano after Kaido kills Oden? Meh, just say Whitebeard didn’t know Oden died after 20 years, or that they didn’t want to hurt civilians or some other bullshit.

This is a problem Oda has developed in recent years, the man creates interesting plot lines that seem impossible to solve...because they actually are impossible for Oda to solve. He writes himself into a situation so impossible that he doesn’t know how to get himself out of it, so he just dismissed the situation with some bullshit all together or forgets that he established it as a problem to begin with.

What does that have to do with Haki? Well, Haki let’s Oda get out of whatever impossible situation he wants to. Logia Devil Fruit users that are literally invincible? Meh, just create a power that makes them not invincible. Kizaru too fast? Meh, just create a power that makes him not-too fast. Kaido too durable? Fuck it, pull whatever nonsense out of your ass that makes him not too durable. These ass-pull solutions would become impossible if Oda fully explained what Haki was capable of from the start. Haki is ambiguous because Oda doesn’t even know what Haki is, Haki simply becomes whatever Oda needs it to be to get himself out of deep shit.

You said in the OP that Oda is a creative writer, but to me his writing problems stem from how uncreative he is. The story problems I described above require genuine ingenuity to solve, which Oda does not have. Everything about his story that fans misconstrue as him being a genius is likely shit he plagiarized from other writers anyway.

If Oda was creative, Haki would’ve never existed in the first place. It was a power invented so that Oda could stop pulling off unique fights like Luffy vs Croc or Luffy vs Enel, and Oda could just have Luffy defeat any opponent by punching them in the face rather than being truly creative in how Luffy (and other Haki users also) overcomes his obstacles.
Yes I share a lot of you're same ideas and to add to what you said, I think Oda is a creative CONCEPT writer but isn't a creative EXECUTER of said concepts thus he relies on cheap tactics like hype and shockvalue to inject interest. The fact is alot of what Oda writes is more decorative than sensible but I think this is MUCH more of an issue post because of the boat load of character, storyline and concept he is just pumping out without even the slightest idea how to resolve it......now try cramming all of that in 17 pages, ya its not going to actually work.
 
#60
This thread is mostly a culmination of my thoughts regarding the state of Post Timeskip One Piece and why I think the story has ultimately suffered. This is not to say that there are not enjoyable aspects. We can always find something "good" about someone or something even if we do not particularly think highly of that person or thing. For me, my sticking point in the post time skip has been Linlin whose character I very much enjoy both for good and for bad.

(Sorry in advance for the grammatical errors)

Originality And Banality - I can confidently say that there is no such thing as originality especially in art where creators draw inspiration from each other in reciprocal manner yet, the goal when drawing from other sources, is to create something unique and to avoid banality. I am not here to criticize Oda for lack of creativity in fact, I think that One Piece is unique for its creativity and its ability to integrate so many concepts in a manner which seems oddly coherent and natural to the world itself.

Nevertheless, I think that Oda suffers from the obsession of being "original" and avoids banality much to the detriment of the story's coherence and consistency. It is well known at this point that Oda is indeed aware of the rabid fanbase and theory-crafting. He dislikes when we the fans are able to predict the outcome of a plot line or future events. This foresight is such an issue that he has been on record saying that he retroactively changes outcomes when he becomes aware that the fans have predicted it. The need to create mystery and to amaze fans with twists and turns is alluring for any storyteller. Often times, the most memorable aspects of a story is the unexpected twist. But, there are limits.

I truly believe that Post TS One Piece suffers because Oda is obsessed with unexpected twists and turns. Coherence will inevitably suffer when the outcome of a plot is changed retroactively just for the sake of shock value rather than the change occurring as a result of an unforeseen flaw during the initial conception of the plotline. Now, it's difficult to point out exactly which plot points Oda has changed retroactively as a result of fan foresight but we can see how his obsession with being original and unpredictable manifests in other aspects of the story.

Silhouettes, Name Drops And Ambiguous References
I've been bitching for years about Oda's overuse of Silhouettes in the post time skip. I think it's egregious when the likes of Holdem is first introduced as a shadow without very much relevance as to why his features or face would remain hidden. For example, Kozuki Oden remained a Silhouette for the longest time with no justification for why he ought to remain hidden. The same goes for Momonoske. Personally speaking, these reveals especially for characters we have never met before did nothing to make their introduction any more memorable. In fact, I remember being quite upset that I waited so long for Oden's design just to have his introduction be just another chapter. I would also say that the long wait greatly ruined his introduction because it raised expectations just to have them unmet.

I understand that building "hype" and "expectation" is part of the business model to keep readers interesting but to me, the manner in which Oda uses these tools is cheap and lazy because it adds nothing to the story nor the characters. It's a cheap way of generating interest and mystery when it is rehashed over and over again. Another recent example is the introduction of the flying 6. Showing their feet the chapter before their introduction rather than just showing them outright added nothing to my interest in these characters. I know that I don't speak for everyone. In fact, I was on the spoiler thread and saw the amount of interest their feet (particularly Who's Who) generated. Yet, to me withholding their appearance added nothing to the overall story. I don't care anymore about the flying six because I couldn't see their design for a chapter or two because it's not pertinent to how the story is supposed to progress.

Haki
Oda's obsession manifests most in his integration of Haki. I don't hate Haki nor do I think it's an uninteresting power system but, my interest in something only goes as far as I can understand that thing. The introduction of Haki has greatly reduced the coherence of the plot in unexpected ways. It may sound hyperbolic to make such a statement but if you consider that the primary form of conflict resolution in One Piece is through combat and violence, then such an assertion isn't so absurd. At the end of the day, everything will be resolved through Luffy's fists and beating down the tyrants that oppress the inhabitants of whatever Island the Strawhats find themselves on.

I won't go into detail on the countless instances where Haki renders the plot incoherent or unbelievable because there are already countless discussions on it. what I want to focus on is Oda's conscious choice of keeping Haki very ambiguous. He keeps Haki ambiguous for the same reason he changes his plot when fans figure out whats going to happen and for the same reason he keeps characters silhouettes or chooses to show their feet instead of just showing them even though witholding them ultimately adds nothing to the plot. That is, for the sake of avoiding banality, remaining unpredictable and to "shock" the readers.

It's clear that Haki is not a concept that Oda had fully solidified until the time skip but it does not excuse the ambiguity that surrounds a power system that has been an integral aspect of combat and plot resolution the past decade. Oda is creative and talented enough to sit down and provide clear and concise details regarding Haki. I say concise here because I know that walls of exposition is not everyone's cup of tea. I personally love long detailed and meticulous explanations of powers and mechanics. For example, the panel below is infamous in and out of the H x H fanbase but panels like that get me excited. I love info dumps. "I want everything explained to me or nothing at all"

I'm not holding Oda to Togashi's "autistic" standards on exposition but basic delineation and explanations as to how Haki works and interacts with the world wouldn't be so hard for Oda.

To put it bluntly, Oda keeps Haki opened ended and ambiguous because it's crutch. When the situation deteriorates and Luffy finds himself in with his back against the wall, Oda can always turn to an unforeseen aspect of Haki to give Luffy the power he needs to overcome his opponent. We see this last chapter where without very little prompt, Luffy becomes capable of imbuing COC into his attacks. I have no issue with Luffy doing so. I take issue because it comes out of thin air. There is no slow progression leading to his epiphany, it just happened. We the readers are forced to accept the result because we had no expectation of what Conquerors Haki does beyond overpowering the weak willed.

I'm sure that moment created "hype" and excitement for many but that hype to me is empty. To me, exciting moments are exciting when there is substance backing those moments. Luffy's realization about COC was not exciting to me because there was no build up. It simply just happened and a cheap flashback was enough to trigger growth.In the same vein, Luffy's victory over Katakuri did not excite me because whatever build up that occurred was rushed and was incoherent due to the thick wall of plot protection and plot induced stupidity imposed on the whole scenario.

Oda believes that keeping things about Haki ambiguous up until it's relevant for plot makes the story exciting and keeps readers hooked. I am sure that for many, that is the case but not for me. I can't help but feel that the story loses believability and tension when things occur so conveniently for Luffy when it comes to powers and combat. Every time Oda reveals something about Haki in the midst of combat in favor of Luffy, I can't help but call bullshit and feel like it's an ass pull. This of course is all personal preference. I'm sure there are many people who enjoy when Haki is exploited as a plot device.

The Beauty of Unoriginality And Expectations
Being unoriginal is not a bad thing. The same applies to knowing what to expect and having that expectation more or less fulfilled. Oda is a talented writer who I believe can still write a captivating narrative without resorting to cheap tricks for the sake of shock value and the subversion of expectations. I think that a major aspect of my enjoyment of something is how well I can engage with it, and how well I can understand it (even if I'm wrong). I think it's cool having an important character introduced without any added fluff. The importance of that character should be dictated by their actions and how they shape the world or influence those around them rather than through artificial measures like Silhouettes. I think it's far more impressive to highlight a characters importance and impact passively even when the audience knows things about the character.

The same can be applied to the plot and power system which progresses the plot. When authors create rules and strictly follow those rules for power systems, we the audience roughly know what to expect. We understand and can follow the rules of the world and through this understanding we can be active passengers in reaching a conclusion as to how a conflict can be resolved within established framework. I'm not imploring or damning Oda for not being obsessive and meticulous like Togashi nor am I trying to suggest that he turns Haki into a hard power system like nen. Yet, basic rules should be established to provide a framework for the readers to follow along. When readers know the rules of a system or world, and know that the author will strictly follow those rules, the resolution the author comes up with is far more satisfying because it follows the established rules. We the readers even with all the rules can only theorize so much. Only the author truly knows his/her characters. The authors solution even if restricted through self imposed rules, comes with its own uniqueness. Things will rarely feel or look like an asspull.

I feel like the writing of the Post Time Skip could truly be much better if Oda wasn't so obsessed with always being original or subverting reader expectations. The story suffers greatly because he chooses to focus on shocking the readers and remaining unpredictable rather than constructing a natural narrative which is free from cheap attention grabbing tactics.
This is a much-needed aspirin after getting fed up with mentally taxing PL dirt, Den_Den_Mushi-level thread. Agree with everything said, mainly Oda's weird stroke for worthless silhouetting. To cite an instance, Oden's silhouette delayed the exposition of the shittiest OP characterization to date, this is even more despicable than playing around with Haki aspects for plot convenience.
 
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