General & Others Oden was a shit leader and deserved to die
- Thread starter Monkey D Theories
- Start date
@dizzy2341 brings a nice point actually. It's only after Orochi told Oden that they had murdered Hyogoro's wife and his followers, that Oden finally snapped and decided to go war. So if Orochi didn't actually tell him about Hyogoro incident, Oden wouldn't know about it and still dancing naked around like Previous Wano Country's no 1 prostitute, Oden the Naked Dancer.
So much for dancing stopped the suffering of Wano. Even with the dancing, Hyogoro's wife and men got murdered and Oden didn't know about it (until Orochi told him) despite him dancing across the area.
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And lol at "Oden saved 26.000 people" logic
Yep that's correct mathematically but just not realistic at all
With above scenario, so you guys actually believed Oden danced around, and at the end of the show he came to Orochi's man, reporting "I have done the dancing today".
Orochi's men: "okay here is 100 free hostages for this week payment"
That silly scenario repeats for 5 years non stop? Lol
Lucky then for the first hundreds chosen to be freed, and very unlucky for the 20.000th and up.
So much for dancing stopped the suffering of Wano. Even with the dancing, Hyogoro's wife and men got murdered and Oden didn't know about it (until Orochi told him) despite him dancing across the area.
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And lol at "Oden saved 26.000 people" logic
Yep that's correct mathematically but just not realistic at all
With above scenario, so you guys actually believed Oden danced around, and at the end of the show he came to Orochi's man, reporting "I have done the dancing today".
Orochi's men: "okay here is 100 free hostages for this week payment"
That silly scenario repeats for 5 years non stop? Lol
Lucky then for the first hundreds chosen to be freed, and very unlucky for the 20.000th and up.
People still defending Loden after all the points @Topi Jerami, @dizzy2341, @Den_Den_Mushi and the others brought is beyond me
H
Of course it didnt. Thats whole point of this 5 years showcase.
Oden didnt want war in first place when orochi was threatening him with kaido killing hostage.
I mean no one goes to war with civilians as hostage . Orochi was playing around with him. If he was foolish i d say yes it sure is he was very naive.
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Who cares what they think lol.
They are complaining about character its fine they can give any analysis . Many of us liked flashback.
Oden was already shown naive from chapter 1 they should have known this long back.
Oden didnt want war in first place when orochi was threatening him with kaido killing hostage.
I mean no one goes to war with civilians as hostage . Orochi was playing around with him. If he was foolish i d say yes it sure is he was very naive.
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People still defending Loden after all the points @Topi Jerami, @dizzy2341, @Den_Den_Mushi and the others brought is beyond me
They are complaining about character its fine they can give any analysis . Many of us liked flashback.
Oden was already shown naive from chapter 1 they should have known this long back.
S
People still defending Loden after all the points @Topi Jerami, @dizzy2341, @Den_Den_Mushi and the others brought is beyond me
M
People still defending Loden after all the points @Topi Jerami, @dizzy2341, @Den_Den_Mushi and the others brought is beyond me
Oden was a clown from beginning to end
1. Yes they were in cruel conditions before Oden arrived. Those cruel conditions were fixed, hence Shinobu in the recent chapter stated that people of Wano enjoyed peace for 5 years. So let's not use selective reading where we just use chapter 969 to put down Oden, and forget what was revealed in chapter 971, that Wano was effectively at peace.
2. "Nothing had changed", nice job taking it out of context. The nothing had changed refers to Orochi not doing anything against Wano for those 4 years, and in his 5th year is when Orochi made his move on Kuri specifically. That statement of "nothing had changed" is directly connected with Shinobu's statement of "Nothing had changed" aka Wano was at peace.
3. Orochi told Oden about The Hero of the Capital and Oden didn't know about means that it had just happened. Oden eventually would've found out and taken action regardless.. why? Because again as revealed in chapter 971, he visited region to region every week to check if things had changed, and Hyou (As well as Yasu) would be one of the people he visited. So this is pretty much a ridiculous point to hold against him.
So what'd Oden do wrong? Trust Orochi & Kaido? ok, he trusted them, saved thousands of lives, apologized on behalf of people of wano who committed a genocide against the Kurozumi, and then took action against Kaido when things were no longer at peace.
- Danced for 5 years, Wano is at peace for 5 years
- Peace is broken, plans Kaido's assassination the moment peace is broken
- Is going for the raid, gets Yasu to protect Kuri while he's away
- gets betrayed by a comrade, allowing Kaido to prepare a whole army for Oden, and still almost nearly kills him
So let's remove the traitor and see what happens:
- Danced for 5 years, Wano is at peace for 5 years
- Peace is broken, Starts the Kaido assassination at Oni island
- Yasu protects kuri while Oden goes on raid
- Fights an unguarded drunk Kaido with unprepared army, and kills him.
- Then takes out Orochi at the capital, who has essentially nobody backing him up
- Wano is free without a war.
So what's the issue here? From the sounds of it you just want Oden to be a dumbfuck who thinks of war as his first resort to solve an issue rather than negotiation and then war.
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For the anti-Oden squad in here saying non-sense like "he stood a better chance 5 years ago".. So can you guarantee he wouldn't have been betrayed 5 years ago?
Taking the L in a giant war that involves a whole country is much much more devastating to a nation than taking an L in a battle involving just 10 people.
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This is based on official translations of last three chapters. I can't upload pics so quoting the translation. I will arrange them not in order of chapter but in order of what happened
Oden return to wano and went after orochi and makes an arrangement.
Chapter 971, page 14 and 15 orochi says that he took throne to take vengeance and drive wano into ruin as everyone in wano is guilty of what happened to kurozumi clan.
Chapter 971 page 16, shinobu says that orochi from a room in the back was paying tribute to kaido - weapons and hostages. This was prior to orochi and oden arrangement.
Orochi makes a suggestion to oden that if he goes for war then he would lose more than what he bargained for. This is because orchi doesn't care about throne but about vengeance. So, if oden wants to stop kidnapping the he has to dance very week and he will save 100 lives with every dance. He will lose all his reputation and it would be like an apology to orochi to ease what he faced. After 5 years they will leave if oden fulfill his promise.
Ch 969 pg 3 orochi says " if this was the problem violence and anger could solve then all the daimyos would have done it already
This clearly implies that war ( with outside help or not) was out of option as it will destroy wano. So,oden went with the arrangement.
Ch 969, pg 10 - oden danced every once a week
Ch 969, of 11 - after a year roger execution happened
Chapter 969, pg 12 - in the second year grave robbery took place
Ch 969, pg 13 says four years passed but nothing in wano changed. Implying that wano was at peace due to the arrangement.
Chapter 971 last page shinobu says that oden traveled from region to region and to ensure nothing has changed...once again this is line with earlier statements that nothing changed in wano and oden ensured peace.
Chapter 971 ,pg 14 shinobu says " who do you think has been ensuring that you all live in peace"? Once again Implying that in all those four years wano remained in peace. Totally consistent with earlier statements.
Chapter 969 ,pg 13 in fifth year orochi makes move on kuri. He says to oden that he will make new weapon factories and need oden help. Oden think that it's on the lines of arrangement of building ship and for kaido to leave as its the fifth year. To which orochi replies ," what do you mean? Wano will we weapon producer" this was followed with orochi revealing the info that hyo is captured.
the reason he was unaware of hyo incident could be because he was traveling from region to region and it's likely that when hyo incident happened he was in different region.
Also hyo followers told oden to stay away from hyo.
This made oden realize that he needs to cut Kaido and decides to go at him. But remember that he choose to strike kaido in surprise and not in direct confrontation of war implying oden belief that war would result into massive sacrfices and devastation of wano but a spy made kaido aware about it.
Chapter 970, pg 4 and 5- kaido says to oden that everything was lies. They were at disadvantage earlier because of being in fewer in number so battle at that time would be difficult (not that they would have lost).
Oden is great leader. His biggest mistake was being naive and believing orochi words.
Every year he visited different region to ensure that everything is right. But orochi was cunning. They fooled oden that they will honor promise and didn't do anything to wano in first four years to stall oden and buy time to grow in strength.
The moment they had enough numbers orochi made move against hyo and kuri.
Thus oden got fooled which is true. But This doesn't portray oden as bad leader. It shows how cunning orchi was and how naive oden was.
Oden return to wano and went after orochi and makes an arrangement.
Chapter 971, page 14 and 15 orochi says that he took throne to take vengeance and drive wano into ruin as everyone in wano is guilty of what happened to kurozumi clan.
Chapter 971 page 16, shinobu says that orochi from a room in the back was paying tribute to kaido - weapons and hostages. This was prior to orochi and oden arrangement.
Orochi makes a suggestion to oden that if he goes for war then he would lose more than what he bargained for. This is because orchi doesn't care about throne but about vengeance. So, if oden wants to stop kidnapping the he has to dance very week and he will save 100 lives with every dance. He will lose all his reputation and it would be like an apology to orochi to ease what he faced. After 5 years they will leave if oden fulfill his promise.
Ch 969 pg 3 orochi says " if this was the problem violence and anger could solve then all the daimyos would have done it already
This clearly implies that war ( with outside help or not) was out of option as it will destroy wano. So,oden went with the arrangement.
Ch 969, pg 10 - oden danced every once a week
Ch 969, of 11 - after a year roger execution happened
Chapter 969, pg 12 - in the second year grave robbery took place
Ch 969, pg 13 says four years passed but nothing in wano changed. Implying that wano was at peace due to the arrangement.
Chapter 971 last page shinobu says that oden traveled from region to region and to ensure nothing has changed...once again this is line with earlier statements that nothing changed in wano and oden ensured peace.
Chapter 971 ,pg 14 shinobu says " who do you think has been ensuring that you all live in peace"? Once again Implying that in all those four years wano remained in peace. Totally consistent with earlier statements.
Chapter 969 ,pg 13 in fifth year orochi makes move on kuri. He says to oden that he will make new weapon factories and need oden help. Oden think that it's on the lines of arrangement of building ship and for kaido to leave as its the fifth year. To which orochi replies ," what do you mean? Wano will we weapon producer" this was followed with orochi revealing the info that hyo is captured.
the reason he was unaware of hyo incident could be because he was traveling from region to region and it's likely that when hyo incident happened he was in different region.
Also hyo followers told oden to stay away from hyo.
This made oden realize that he needs to cut Kaido and decides to go at him. But remember that he choose to strike kaido in surprise and not in direct confrontation of war implying oden belief that war would result into massive sacrfices and devastation of wano but a spy made kaido aware about it.
Chapter 970, pg 4 and 5- kaido says to oden that everything was lies. They were at disadvantage earlier because of being in fewer in number so battle at that time would be difficult (not that they would have lost).
Oden is great leader. His biggest mistake was being naive and believing orochi words.
Every year he visited different region to ensure that everything is right. But orochi was cunning. They fooled oden that they will honor promise and didn't do anything to wano in first four years to stall oden and buy time to grow in strength.
The moment they had enough numbers orochi made move against hyo and kuri.
Thus oden got fooled which is true. But This doesn't portray oden as bad leader. It shows how cunning orchi was and how naive oden was.
"Oden saved 26.000 people" is confirmed to be bullshit.
Here Shinobu said
"Many hundreds of kidnapped people". And Oden already started his naked dancing right after the negotiation.
So what part of "many hundreds" will mean "26.000"?
Many hundreds, from the words alone will most likely mean between 500 to 900, but below 1000. If it's 20.000++ Shinobu will say "many thousands" not many hundreds. The difference of number is very big there.
Unless Kaido and Orochi actually restocked their hostage supply into 20.000. But then again, Oden already started his naked dancing. Which means if Kaido and Orochi restocked the hostages, it means there was another kidnapping (behind the scene) that Oden was never aware of. Not surprised though if this is the case, as Oden also never knew about Hyogoro incident after Orochi himself told him about it.
Imagine Orochi never told him, Oden would continue dancing like a fool forever. Even if he visited Hyogoro's home, Kaido could already blackmail Hyogoro to lie to Oden with something simple like "my wife are on vacation in another village" and considering how Oden is as dumb and trusting as Tontatta, it's not too farfetched to think that Oden would believe it.
Here Shinobu said
"Many hundreds of kidnapped people". And Oden already started his naked dancing right after the negotiation.
So what part of "many hundreds" will mean "26.000"?
Many hundreds, from the words alone will most likely mean between 500 to 900, but below 1000. If it's 20.000++ Shinobu will say "many thousands" not many hundreds. The difference of number is very big there.
Unless Kaido and Orochi actually restocked their hostage supply into 20.000. But then again, Oden already started his naked dancing. Which means if Kaido and Orochi restocked the hostages, it means there was another kidnapping (behind the scene) that Oden was never aware of. Not surprised though if this is the case, as Oden also never knew about Hyogoro incident after Orochi himself told him about it.
Imagine Orochi never told him, Oden would continue dancing like a fool forever. Even if he visited Hyogoro's home, Kaido could already blackmail Hyogoro to lie to Oden with something simple like "my wife are on vacation in another village" and considering how Oden is as dumb and trusting as Tontatta, it's not too farfetched to think that Oden would believe it.
M
"Oden saved 26.000 people" is confirmed to be bullshit.
Here Shinobu said
"Many hundreds of kidnapped people". And Oden already started his naked dancing right after the negotiation.
So what part of "many hundreds" will mean "26.000"?
Many hundreds, from the words alone will most likely mean between 500 to 900, but below 1000. If it's 20.000++ Shinobu will say "many thousands" not many hundreds. The difference of number is very big there.
Unless Kaido and Orochi actually restocked their hostage supply into 20.000. But then again, Oden already started his naked dancing. Which means if Kaido and Orochi restocked the hostages, it means there was another kidnapping (behind the scene) that Oden was never aware of. Not surprised though if this is the case, as Oden also never knew about Hyogoro incident after Orochi himself told him about it.
Imagine Orochi never told him, Oden would continue dancing like a fool forever. Even if he visited Hyogoro's home, Kaido could already blackmail Hyogoro to lie to Oden with something simple like "my wife are on vacation in another village" and considering how Oden is as dumb and trusting as Tontatta, it's not too farfetched to think that Oden would believe it.
Here Shinobu said
"Many hundreds of kidnapped people". And Oden already started his naked dancing right after the negotiation.
So what part of "many hundreds" will mean "26.000"?
Many hundreds, from the words alone will most likely mean between 500 to 900, but below 1000. If it's 20.000++ Shinobu will say "many thousands" not many hundreds. The difference of number is very big there.
Unless Kaido and Orochi actually restocked their hostage supply into 20.000. But then again, Oden already started his naked dancing. Which means if Kaido and Orochi restocked the hostages, it means there was another kidnapping (behind the scene) that Oden was never aware of. Not surprised though if this is the case, as Oden also never knew about Hyogoro incident after Orochi himself told him about it.
Imagine Orochi never told him, Oden would continue dancing like a fool forever. Even if he visited Hyogoro's home, Kaido could already blackmail Hyogoro to lie to Oden with something simple like "my wife are on vacation in another village" and considering how Oden is as dumb and trusting as Tontatta, it's not too farfetched to think that Oden would believe it.
It’s not arguing about semantics. The two are entirely different things. When Luffy stepped foot on Wano, probably as strong as or stronger than Kaido’s strongest subordinate, Luffy was a threat to Kaido’s alliance, while at the same time, not being a threat to Kaido. It’s a bit different with Oden, because he was stronger than Luffy, but that still does not leave a guarantee that he would have won. Kaido mentioned nothing about Oden being a severe threat to himself, but to them because they were low on men. Those are two entirely different conversations, and if he failed, it would have been the end of Wano and things would have been much worse.
Oh yeah, I get it. You want Oden to have one of the nine most recognizable people that support him, one of his personal retainers, to have snuck off to get help, because there was no way that Kaido or Orochi would have noticed that one of the nine most recognizable people that support him, one of his personal retainers, had disappeared into thin air. And, if in the off chance that they did notice that one of the nine most recognizable people that support him, one of his personal retainers, had disappeared to who knows where, they absolutely wouldn’t have done anything about it.
Oh, so the attack that Kaido was laying on the ground would have definitey killed him regardless. He definitey couldn’t have used Haki or anything, that was absolutely a one hundred percent kill shot.
Ah, because Toki, as his wife and the closest person to him, would have been any more restrained than one of the scabbards.
We’ve now whittled down this argument to “Oden is shit because reasons” to “he’s shit because he couldn’t tell anyone and that’s emotionally unhealthy.” Got it.
Oh yeah, I get it. You want Oden to have one of the nine most recognizable people that support him, one of his personal retainers, to have snuck off to get help, because there was no way that Kaido or Orochi would have noticed that one of the nine most recognizable people that support him, one of his personal retainers, had disappeared into thin air. And, if in the off chance that they did notice that one of the nine most recognizable people that support him, one of his personal retainers, had disappeared to who knows where, they absolutely wouldn’t have done anything about it.
Oh, so the attack that Kaido was laying on the ground would have definitey killed him regardless. He definitey couldn’t have used Haki or anything, that was absolutely a one hundred percent kill shot.
Ah, because Toki, as his wife and the closest person to him, would have been any more restrained than one of the scabbards.
We’ve now whittled down this argument to “Oden is shit because reasons” to “he’s shit because he couldn’t tell anyone and that’s emotionally unhealthy.” Got it.