Versus Battle Ouki vs Kanmei
- Thread starter God Buggy
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So how is eos Shin supposed to be stronger than Kanmei?
You guys are fighting a ghost anyway, no one really said Kanmei has no weight, @Elder Lee Hung even thinks I only believe my favorite characters have some weight, if you go that route its fine I guess lol
What I said was that Kanmei does have a pretty significant weight but still not as great as Ouki's just like eos Shin would pound guys like Kanmei with his supreme great general of the heavens weight.
Gotta love the stats too, Ouki is a 98 str while Kanmei is a 99, not that big of a difference lol
About Ouki and Houken, Houken is not "slightly" superior in strength and skill, the difference is incalculable. Houken is leagues above any general in these two aspects.
So yeah it falls down on whether you think Ouki can close this really minute difference in strength with a heavier weight, imo they're the same level basically but I'd throw my money on the great general of the heavens
You guys are fighting a ghost anyway, no one really said Kanmei has no weight, @Elder Lee Hung even thinks I only believe my favorite characters have some weight, if you go that route its fine I guess lol
What I said was that Kanmei does have a pretty significant weight but still not as great as Ouki's just like eos Shin would pound guys like Kanmei with his supreme great general of the heavens weight.
Gotta love the stats too, Ouki is a 98 str while Kanmei is a 99, not that big of a difference lol
About Ouki and Houken, Houken is not "slightly" superior in strength and skill, the difference is incalculable. Houken is leagues above any general in these two aspects.
So yeah it falls down on whether you think Ouki can close this really minute difference in strength with a heavier weight, imo they're the same level basically but I'd throw my money on the great general of the heavens
I don't agree with the "weight argument" that would supposedly favor Ouki. Both Ouki and Kanmei possess weight, they'd be matched in that regard.
Shin didn't find "different" levels of weights in those three istances, despite the three different individuals. If anything he found those blows to perfectly equivalent to one another.
What the three had in common is that they all carried weight.
There also seem to be different interpretations/descriptions of weight (for example in Kanmei's case, we have talks about this strenght being linked to the achievements in his career - whereas in Ouki's case it was very highlighted the whole deal about carrying the hopes and wishes of friends and foes).
All of that being said, I really don't see Kanmei's weight being any less than Ouki's in a match.
Shin here receives a blow from Renpa:
Shin against Gaimou:
"It really is exactly is as the last time".
Shin here compares a blow with weight from Gaimou with the one he had previously received from Renpa, founding them equivalent.
Shin against Gyou'un:
Gyou'un's blow is directly compared with Gaimou's and, thus, Renpa's.
Shin against Gaimou:
"It really is exactly is as the last time".
Shin here compares a blow with weight from Gaimou with the one he had previously received from Renpa, founding them equivalent.
Shin against Gyou'un:
Gyou'un's blow is directly compared with Gaimou's and, thus, Renpa's.
What the three had in common is that they all carried weight.
There also seem to be different interpretations/descriptions of weight (for example in Kanmei's case, we have talks about this strenght being linked to the achievements in his career - whereas in Ouki's case it was very highlighted the whole deal about carrying the hopes and wishes of friends and foes).
All of that being said, I really don't see Kanmei's weight being any less than Ouki's in a match.
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I never said that about you lol, the “only my favorites have weight” idea has plagued this forum since 2019 and has yet to die. I was more commenting on that idea than I was on your comment.
This is what I’m saying though, based on what is Ouki’s weight greater than Kanmei’s? Kanmei’s service record is outright better than Ouki’s and is more impressive. Ouki has probably racked up 100+ victories for Qin, but Ouki has never once been referenced as undefeated whereas Kanmei had never lost a battle in his life until Moubu and had achieved 99 victories as a General prior to even becoming a GG.
There’s really no proof EOS Shin will be above Kanmei in strength. If EOS Shin beats Kanmei in a fight, it’ll be via skill and not brute strength. There’s no way 5 ft 9 Shin (hopefully he gets taller) will outmuscle 8 foot 10 giga-man Kanmei.
Of all the authorities to appeal to, Kouretsu is undoubtedly one of the dumbest. The man doesn’t know anything about war/strategy/tactics/battle at all, if Renpa weren’t present he would’ve sent Kou En into an unwinnable situation that could’ve resulted in the strongest Chu General getting repelled by Qin commanders of no renown.
Recall Renpa stated it was no longer possible for Kou En to reinforce the Coalition army because he would’ve never have been able to make it to the field of battle in time. Kouretsu would’ve probably sent Kou En like an idiot thinking this would work, and then when Kou En failed, Kouretsu would’ve called him an imbecile and a failure to because again: Kouretsu doesn’t know shit about shit.
Extremely, extremely weird source to appeal to lmfao.
This is what I’m saying though, based on what is Ouki’s weight greater than Kanmei’s? Kanmei’s service record is outright better than Ouki’s and is more impressive. Ouki has probably racked up 100+ victories for Qin, but Ouki has never once been referenced as undefeated whereas Kanmei had never lost a battle in his life until Moubu and had achieved 99 victories as a General prior to even becoming a GG.
There’s really no proof EOS Shin will be above Kanmei in strength. If EOS Shin beats Kanmei in a fight, it’ll be via skill and not brute strength. There’s no way 5 ft 9 Shin (hopefully he gets taller) will outmuscle 8 foot 10 giga-man Kanmei.
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I highly doubt Kanmei's GG factor is in Ouki or Renpa's league. Even his own king didnt respect him =>
Imagine the Chu king calling Kouen an imbecile and throwing dice his body into mincemeat
Imagine the Chu king calling Kouen an imbecile and throwing dice his body into mincemeat
Recall Renpa stated it was no longer possible for Kou En to reinforce the Coalition army because he would’ve never have been able to make it to the field of battle in time. Kouretsu would’ve probably sent Kou En like an idiot thinking this would work, and then when Kou En failed, Kouretsu would’ve called him an imbecile and a failure to because again: Kouretsu doesn’t know shit about shit.
Extremely, extremely weird source to appeal to lmfao.
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He isn't going to be stronger. Why should he need to be? Shin's goal isn't to become the strongest General in China, that is Moubu's aim. His goal is to become the greatest General in China by achieving unification.
Shin could be a sickly, physical invalid like Rin Shou Jo but as long as he had the tactical mind for it then he could still become the greatest General in China. Being weaker than Kanmei of all people isn't detrimental to Shin's goal.
Right and I said that Kanmei wasn't lacking in Weight and that the fandom overrated the importance of Weight in hypothetical matchups, especially hypothetical matchups where both combatants posses Weight.
How exactly are those two going to supposedly pound a dude that was considered the strongest General in all of China and who also possessed the Weight of a General when they both barely secured an extreme difficulty victory against a Weightless fighter that was a General in name only?
Weight has literally only been the deciding factor in fights where one side didn't have any at all. Not to mention Weight sure didn't help Duke Hyou against Houken.
The stats also say that Shouheikan and Wategi are absolute equals with both having a Strength 90 stat and that the Wei Fire Dragon Great General Gokei has a B Rank Experience level that is equal to current Kaine, who still isn't even a General.
The stats are complete bullshit and should never be taken seriously. Lol.
Literally the entirety of Houken's character exploration involved deconstructing his supposedly unreachable level of martial prowess only for the reader to eventually find that while Houken was indeed a monstrous man, he was still ultimately just a man. His level wasn't unreachable by others no matter how much he believed in his transcension above humanity, which is why he was forever enraged that the blades of others kept reaching him thus proving his human limits time and again.
Houken is a Top Tier for sure but he isn't beyond the level of other Top Tiers even in martial prowess. If there was a large gap between Houken and Ouki then Ouki would have been killed like Duke Hyou was.
Ouki was already close to Houken in strength to begin with. His Weight then made up for the small difference between them (since Houken had no Weight whatsoever) and would have granted Ouki an extreme diff victory if he hadn't been interrupted.
Ouki's Weight barely closed a small difference in strength with a guy that didn't have any Weight whatsoever, how is it going to close the difference against a physically superior foe that also possesses Weight and who has a service record as a General that is on par with Ouki and other Legendary Great Generals?
Shin could be a sickly, physical invalid like Rin Shou Jo but as long as he had the tactical mind for it then he could still become the greatest General in China. Being weaker than Kanmei of all people isn't detrimental to Shin's goal.
Right and I said that Kanmei wasn't lacking in Weight and that the fandom overrated the importance of Weight in hypothetical matchups, especially hypothetical matchups where both combatants posses Weight.
How exactly are those two going to supposedly pound a dude that was considered the strongest General in all of China and who also possessed the Weight of a General when they both barely secured an extreme difficulty victory against a Weightless fighter that was a General in name only?
Weight has literally only been the deciding factor in fights where one side didn't have any at all. Not to mention Weight sure didn't help Duke Hyou against Houken.
The stats also say that Shouheikan and Wategi are absolute equals with both having a Strength 90 stat and that the Wei Fire Dragon Great General Gokei has a B Rank Experience level that is equal to current Kaine, who still isn't even a General.
The stats are complete bullshit and should never be taken seriously. Lol.
Literally the entirety of Houken's character exploration involved deconstructing his supposedly unreachable level of martial prowess only for the reader to eventually find that while Houken was indeed a monstrous man, he was still ultimately just a man. His level wasn't unreachable by others no matter how much he believed in his transcension above humanity, which is why he was forever enraged that the blades of others kept reaching him thus proving his human limits time and again.
Houken is a Top Tier for sure but he isn't beyond the level of other Top Tiers even in martial prowess. If there was a large gap between Houken and Ouki then Ouki would have been killed like Duke Hyou was.
Ouki was already close to Houken in strength to begin with. His Weight then made up for the small difference between them (since Houken had no Weight whatsoever) and would have granted Ouki an extreme diff victory if he hadn't been interrupted.
Ouki's Weight barely closed a small difference in strength with a guy that didn't have any Weight whatsoever, how is it going to close the difference against a physically superior foe that also possesses Weight and who has a service record as a General that is on par with Ouki and other Legendary Great Generals?
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I didn’t say he was dumb, I said he knew nothing about warfare. Being the King of a state does not warrant intelligence, just ask the Zhao royal family how much IQ it takes to be a King.
Kouretsu was really good at keeping his court in check, they all feared him and he and Shunshinkun kept infighting in Chu to a minimum. Chu’s military was also not powerful because of him, it was powerful because of its leaders like Kou En and Shunshinkun and Kanmei, Kouretsu had nothing to do with that and we can tell based on the one conversation we ever saw him have about warfare.
Kouretsu actually thought he could send Kou En to save the Coalition army, with Renpa politely explaining to him how much of a stupid decision that would be. Because again, Kouretsu doesn’t know shit about warfare or his generals. This dude would’ve legit sent Kou En to fail and then ordered him executed for his failure, he is that much of an idiot. Kanmei literally has a service record superior to every general in this manga not named Hakuki, Kouretsu’s ignorant ass lacking the brains to understand that is not a legit argument against Kanmei.
Kouretsu was really good at keeping his court in check, they all feared him and he and Shunshinkun kept infighting in Chu to a minimum. Chu’s military was also not powerful because of him, it was powerful because of its leaders like Kou En and Shunshinkun and Kanmei, Kouretsu had nothing to do with that and we can tell based on the one conversation we ever saw him have about warfare.
Kouretsu actually thought he could send Kou En to save the Coalition army, with Renpa politely explaining to him how much of a stupid decision that would be. Because again, Kouretsu doesn’t know shit about warfare or his generals. This dude would’ve legit sent Kou En to fail and then ordered him executed for his failure, he is that much of an idiot. Kanmei literally has a service record superior to every general in this manga not named Hakuki, Kouretsu’s ignorant ass lacking the brains to understand that is not a legit argument against Kanmei.
I highly doubt Kanmei's GG factor is in Ouki or Renpa's league. Even his own king didnt respect him =>
Again, Shouheikan flat out states that Kanmei's service record was, at the time, amongst the most impressive in all of China amongst all living Generals. Renpa included.
Aye, I can actually imagine that. Kou Retsu was an arrogant, foul mannered individual armed with a hair trigger temper that was Chu's superiority complex personified. If Kou En had died and failed him in that campaign while representing Chu in a Coalition Army, Kou Retsu would have likely talked smack about him too.
He also must have respected Kanmei on some level or else he never would have trusted Kanmei to lead Chu's Army and represent the face of the Coalition Army on behalf of Chu to begin with. He talked smack about Kanmei after his death because again, petty superiority complex is petty. Lol.
Edit: Images needed replacing. Lol.
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Because Shouheikun is wrong here. Kanmei's service record cant be more impressive than Kouen. I could buy this statement if its only about Kanmei's physical strength but there is no way he was the most accomplished general in all of China lmao.
Btw you were showing me the panels of Jinou, the strategist who got outsmarted in the war lol. Its strange that you believe that fool Jinou's statements but dismiss his king Kouretsu's statement who ruled the only superstate without any problem.
There is an additional piece of information in that panel. Kouretsu asked Renpa if he was stingy in his contribution. He thought he was stingy because he sent Kanmei! Renpa agreed that Kouretsu should have sent Kouen if he didnt want to be stingy. Kanmei is not the guy that you are trying to prove here.
Its the opposite. A king requires more IQ to be successful than a general, ask the protagonist of the story. Its possible to be a great general only with instinct. The Zhao case is very different because Riboku has some unjustified loyalty towards the king. If Riboku wasnt loyal, he could get rid of this king and become the king himself.
Regarding Kouretsu, he kept guys like Shunshinkun and Rien under his control. The moment he died, those two tried to kill each other and ultimately Rien succeded. Kouretsu cant be a dumbass as you are trying to prove.
Very good point. Now that I think about it, Houken was leagues above Ouki in skill. Seems like the GG factor can multiply the other stats!
I dont think stats in volume 7 and volume 20 are bullshit though. The guidebook stats are probably trash.
Btw you were showing me the panels of Jinou, the strategist who got outsmarted in the war lol. Its strange that you believe that fool Jinou's statements but dismiss his king Kouretsu's statement who ruled the only superstate without any problem.
There is an additional piece of information in that panel. Kouretsu asked Renpa if he was stingy in his contribution. He thought he was stingy because he sent Kanmei! Renpa agreed that Kouretsu should have sent Kouen if he didnt want to be stingy. Kanmei is not the guy that you are trying to prove here.
Its the opposite. A king requires more IQ to be successful than a general, ask the protagonist of the story. Its possible to be a great general only with instinct. The Zhao case is very different because Riboku has some unjustified loyalty towards the king. If Riboku wasnt loyal, he could get rid of this king and become the king himself.
Regarding Kouretsu, he kept guys like Shunshinkun and Rien under his control. The moment he died, those two tried to kill each other and ultimately Rien succeded. Kouretsu cant be a dumbass as you are trying to prove.
Very good point. Now that I think about it, Houken was leagues above Ouki in skill. Seems like the GG factor can multiply the other stats!
I dont think stats in volume 7 and volume 20 are bullshit though. The guidebook stats are probably trash.
First off, Shouheikan is claiming that Kanmei's record is amongst the most impressive at that time, not that it is definitively the most impressive without question. There is a difference.
Second, Shouheikan is directly linking Kanmei's impressive service record to his monstrous strength.
"a General's strength is linked to all the myriad achievements one has accomplished in their career..."
"Kanmei could very possibly be the strongest man in all of China right now."
The point is that Kanmei's Weight derives from a service record that is either close to, equal to or surpasses pretty much all other Great Generals in this manga.
If Weight really does come in differing amounts then there isn't going to be an opponent with a service record so far above Kanmei that it makes up for the difference in strength in addition to overcoming Kanmei's own Weight.
..... What even is this argument?
So I should dismiss Jinou as a fool because he got outsmarted by the Chief of Military Affairs for Qin? Should I also dismiss anything Ouki says cause he got outsmarted by the Prime Minister of Zhao? Hey, Renpa lost to Mougou, guess I cannot take him seriously either. Tou got outmanoeuvred by Karin, should he be dismissed as a chump too?
On warfare and combat however, I should apparently listen to Kou Retsu, a man that has never even seen a battlefield, over actual Generals and even Military Chiefs like Jinou and Shouheikan because he knows how to be an effective political administrator?
What in the actual feck is this argument...
Jinou isn't even saying anything out of the ordinary. He is just talking about how Kanmei has the Weight of a General, that thing Ouki waxed lyrical about but since both Jinou and Ouki got outsmarted once, I guess I shouldn't listen to either of them regarding the topic of warfare apparently and instead listen to a politician born with a silver spoon up his arse that hasn't even looked at a battlefield. Lel.
The first part of my post here already covers this but to reiterate, Kanmei can be below Kou En as a General while simultaneously having one of the most impressive military service records in China that results in him having Weight that strengthens the might of his already mighty blows. There isn't anything contradictory here.
I do not care where any of these stats come from when the stat system is fundamentally nonsensical and is consistently filled with egregiously bad claims like Great General Gokei having Experience equal to Kaine of all people along with the other infamous hot take of Shouheikan and Wategi being absolute combat equals when one neg diffed the other.
The fact that Hara made his stat system go up to 100 is ridiculous to begin with.
Just think for a moment. All of the combat oriented Generals in this manga are in the Strength 90-100 range of the stat system.
That means there is less than 1/10 of a difference in the numerical value assigned to all of these duellists. Within this less than a 1/10 of a difference, you will get everything from extreme diff fights to mid diffs and even neg diff curb stomps.
Examples:
I) Moubu (99) Vs Kanmei (98); Extreme diff victory for Moubu. Difference of 1 Strength point.
II) Ouki (98) vs Houken (100); Extreme diff victory for Ouki (if there hadn't been interference). Difference of 2 Strength points.
III) Tou (96) Vs Rinbukun (93); Mid diff victory for Tou. Difference of 3 Strength points.
IV) Shouheikan (90) Vs Wategi (90); Neg diff victory for Shouheikan. No difference in Strength points.
This system fundamentally makes no feckin sense and I am never going to take it seriously.
Edit: Image needed replacing. Lol.
Second, Shouheikan is directly linking Kanmei's impressive service record to his monstrous strength.
"a General's strength is linked to all the myriad achievements one has accomplished in their career..."
"Kanmei could very possibly be the strongest man in all of China right now."
The point is that Kanmei's Weight derives from a service record that is either close to, equal to or surpasses pretty much all other Great Generals in this manga.
If Weight really does come in differing amounts then there isn't going to be an opponent with a service record so far above Kanmei that it makes up for the difference in strength in addition to overcoming Kanmei's own Weight.
..... What even is this argument?
So I should dismiss Jinou as a fool because he got outsmarted by the Chief of Military Affairs for Qin? Should I also dismiss anything Ouki says cause he got outsmarted by the Prime Minister of Zhao? Hey, Renpa lost to Mougou, guess I cannot take him seriously either. Tou got outmanoeuvred by Karin, should he be dismissed as a chump too?
On warfare and combat however, I should apparently listen to Kou Retsu, a man that has never even seen a battlefield, over actual Generals and even Military Chiefs like Jinou and Shouheikan because he knows how to be an effective political administrator?
What in the actual feck is this argument...
Jinou isn't even saying anything out of the ordinary. He is just talking about how Kanmei has the Weight of a General, that thing Ouki waxed lyrical about but since both Jinou and Ouki got outsmarted once, I guess I shouldn't listen to either of them regarding the topic of warfare apparently and instead listen to a politician born with a silver spoon up his arse that hasn't even looked at a battlefield. Lel.
The first part of my post here already covers this but to reiterate, Kanmei can be below Kou En as a General while simultaneously having one of the most impressive military service records in China that results in him having Weight that strengthens the might of his already mighty blows. There isn't anything contradictory here.
I do not care where any of these stats come from when the stat system is fundamentally nonsensical and is consistently filled with egregiously bad claims like Great General Gokei having Experience equal to Kaine of all people along with the other infamous hot take of Shouheikan and Wategi being absolute combat equals when one neg diffed the other.
The fact that Hara made his stat system go up to 100 is ridiculous to begin with.
Just think for a moment. All of the combat oriented Generals in this manga are in the Strength 90-100 range of the stat system.
That means there is less than 1/10 of a difference in the numerical value assigned to all of these duellists. Within this less than a 1/10 of a difference, you will get everything from extreme diff fights to mid diffs and even neg diff curb stomps.
Examples:
I) Moubu (99) Vs Kanmei (98); Extreme diff victory for Moubu. Difference of 1 Strength point.
II) Ouki (98) vs Houken (100); Extreme diff victory for Ouki (if there hadn't been interference). Difference of 2 Strength points.
III) Tou (96) Vs Rinbukun (93); Mid diff victory for Tou. Difference of 3 Strength points.
IV) Shouheikan (90) Vs Wategi (90); Neg diff victory for Shouheikan. No difference in Strength points.
This system fundamentally makes no feckin sense and I am never going to take it seriously.
Edit: Image needed replacing. Lol.
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Yes please Nidai tell us how you know more than Qin’s chief of military affairs, I’m very curious as to how you know Shouheikun was wrong when literally zero sources in the canon contradicted anything he said.
This is such an amazingly dumb statement that I’m really not sure how to address it.
Curious: Do you also think Renpa is incompetent and a coward? I mean, the Zhao Royal Court thought Renpa was an incompetent coward at Chouhei and they removed him from command which ultimately cost Zhao the battle, but the Zhao Court must be smarter than Renpa right? I mean, just ask the protagonist of the story, it definitely 100% requires more military acumen to be a state administrator and politician than it does to be a General. 100% no doubt. The Zhao court even told Renpa to return to Kantan so they could execute him, clearly Renpa is an incompetent coward because a bunch of statesmen who know nothing of war said so.
No, of course the correct answer is that being a statesmen often has absolutely nothing to do with military knowledge. I do consider Kouretsu to have been a good and strong King, but this was because he maintained an iron grip on his court and maintained the strict loyalty of all his vassals. Kouretsu also knew that he shouldn’t go against the counsel of actual military experts like Renpa and Shunshinkun, and would follow their advice because he knew nothing about warfare and he recognized this. He was a great politician, he was not a great military mind.
To cite him as a legitimate source on Kanmei when Kanmei’s service record is factually better than every general we’ve ever heard of bar Hakuki and maybe Gakuki, is straight up brain dead.
More on Kouretsu:
Factually incorrect. Shunshinkun was not loyal to Kouretsu because he respected Kouretsu’s military acumen, Shunshinkun was loyal to Kouretsu because Shunshinkun wanted to see himself on the Chu throne, and he recognized that the safest and most guaranteed way to accomplish this was to build up his own prestige and the strength of Chu, putting himself in a position to be legitimately declared the King of Chu by consensus of the Royal Court. He recognized that opposing Kouretsu and claiming the throne through deception and underhanded tactics would ultimately not allow him to maintain his crown as he would’ve gained it through illegitimate means, and he instead chose to make a legitimate run for the crown by allowing Kouretsu to die a natural death and positioning himself as Kouretsu’s natural and only successor.
It was because Shunshinkun did this so well that Rien killed him, because Rien also wants power for himself. Not because Kouretsu kept these two in check, like what series are you even reading…
So yes, part of Kouretsu retaining his own thrown was because Shunshinkun declared loyalty to him, just like Riboku and Toujou (except where Kouretsu was actually a good king unlike Toujou).
This is such an amazingly dumb statement that I’m really not sure how to address it.
Curious: Do you also think Renpa is incompetent and a coward? I mean, the Zhao Royal Court thought Renpa was an incompetent coward at Chouhei and they removed him from command which ultimately cost Zhao the battle, but the Zhao Court must be smarter than Renpa right? I mean, just ask the protagonist of the story, it definitely 100% requires more military acumen to be a state administrator and politician than it does to be a General. 100% no doubt. The Zhao court even told Renpa to return to Kantan so they could execute him, clearly Renpa is an incompetent coward because a bunch of statesmen who know nothing of war said so.
No, of course the correct answer is that being a statesmen often has absolutely nothing to do with military knowledge. I do consider Kouretsu to have been a good and strong King, but this was because he maintained an iron grip on his court and maintained the strict loyalty of all his vassals. Kouretsu also knew that he shouldn’t go against the counsel of actual military experts like Renpa and Shunshinkun, and would follow their advice because he knew nothing about warfare and he recognized this. He was a great politician, he was not a great military mind.
To cite him as a legitimate source on Kanmei when Kanmei’s service record is factually better than every general we’ve ever heard of bar Hakuki and maybe Gakuki, is straight up brain dead.
More on Kouretsu:
Factually incorrect. Shunshinkun was not loyal to Kouretsu because he respected Kouretsu’s military acumen, Shunshinkun was loyal to Kouretsu because Shunshinkun wanted to see himself on the Chu throne, and he recognized that the safest and most guaranteed way to accomplish this was to build up his own prestige and the strength of Chu, putting himself in a position to be legitimately declared the King of Chu by consensus of the Royal Court. He recognized that opposing Kouretsu and claiming the throne through deception and underhanded tactics would ultimately not allow him to maintain his crown as he would’ve gained it through illegitimate means, and he instead chose to make a legitimate run for the crown by allowing Kouretsu to die a natural death and positioning himself as Kouretsu’s natural and only successor.
It was because Shunshinkun did this so well that Rien killed him, because Rien also wants power for himself. Not because Kouretsu kept these two in check, like what series are you even reading…
So yes, part of Kouretsu retaining his own thrown was because Shunshinkun declared loyalty to him, just like Riboku and Toujou (except where Kouretsu was actually a good king unlike Toujou).
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Where is this "amongst" you are talking about?
Shoheikun said: achivements in one's career = strength
Kanmei's achievements can't be higher than Kouen's. If Kouen has more achievements, shouldn't Kouen be the strongest according to Shoheikun's definition? Answer this.
And why this is a bad argument? You are cherry picking statements that suits your argument. Throwing screenshots of Jinou's words and dismissing Kouretsu’s.
Right, now this is the part I completely agree with. Perhaps Shouheikun's statement could be better translated. Kanmei was definitely one of the most accomplished general in all China, but there are people whose accomplishments should be above Kanmei's, e.g. Kouen, Ouki, Renpa, etc.
Why is it factually incorrect? Correct me if I am wrong, didnt Rien and Shunshinkun both sent assassins to kill each other? Both of them didn't try to kill the king though. It could be loyalty or they could be scared of Kouretsu, I am assuming the latter as they tried to kill each other.
Let's keep it simple. You said a king doesn't need high IQ, I thought you were talking about intelligence in general. Military acumen is something different. I still don't think someone can be a successful king of a country like Chu without a considerable battle IQ. In addition, Kouretsu was quite strong, that guy has to be a fighter himself.
Shoheikun said: achivements in one's career = strength
Kanmei's achievements can't be higher than Kouen's. If Kouen has more achievements, shouldn't Kouen be the strongest according to Shoheikun's definition? Answer this.
And why this is a bad argument? You are cherry picking statements that suits your argument. Throwing screenshots of Jinou's words and dismissing Kouretsu’s.
Right, now this is the part I completely agree with. Perhaps Shouheikun's statement could be better translated. Kanmei was definitely one of the most accomplished general in all China, but there are people whose accomplishments should be above Kanmei's, e.g. Kouen, Ouki, Renpa, etc.
Why is it factually incorrect? Correct me if I am wrong, didnt Rien and Shunshinkun both sent assassins to kill each other? Both of them didn't try to kill the king though. It could be loyalty or they could be scared of Kouretsu, I am assuming the latter as they tried to kill each other.
Let's keep it simple. You said a king doesn't need high IQ, I thought you were talking about intelligence in general. Military acumen is something different. I still don't think someone can be a successful king of a country like Chu without a considerable battle IQ. In addition, Kouretsu was quite strong, that guy has to be a fighter himself.
You didn’t read my comment did you? I already addressed this:
A king doesn’t need high IQ nor do they need high battle IQ. Oftentimes, Kings were simply acknowledged by virtue of their lineages and not their actual leadership ability. Look at Toujou, not one motherfucker in Zhao respected him but they acknowledged him as King because of his lineage, and because Toujou didn’t care what his court did so his reign made it easy for them to pursue their own agendas. Toujou’s successor is similar, no one respects him at all but they acknowledge him as King because of traditionalism.
Shunshinkun also acknowledged Kouretsu as King because playing nice was politically advantageous for Shunshinkun and would ultimately allow him to position himself as Kouretsu’s successor.
As for battle IQ, again this is definitely not needed to be King. I’ve already cited examples of this in Qin and Zhao but really every King in this manga is the same except for King Sho. No King’s in this manga have possessed exceptional military knowledge, even some of the ones with more advanced military acumen like Sei really only seem to know the basics of warfare and their knowledge doesn’t go in depth. A King’s job is not to know the subtleties and nuances of warfare, that is a General’s job and the job for your strategists. If you, as a King, have great strategists and generals under you, it doesn’t matter how much you yourself know because you can let your generals and strategists handle warfare for you. That’s the entire point of having generals and strategists, you employ people who know more about war than you do, and you can focus on other things like politics which is much more important for a King to understand.
Again, Kouretsu was great at this. Politically his entire court respected/feared him, and he acknowledged that his generals knew more about military affairs than he did so he pretty much seemed to listen to them. Knowing when to listen to your experts does not make you a legitimate source on warfare, especially when Kouretsu seemed ignorant to how army movement and battle flow actually works with Renpa having to educate him. The man was a strong politician, not a military mind.
As for his physical strength:crushing walnuts does not translate to experience fighting on the battlefield, lol…sure Kouretsu seemed to be physically strong but there is zero reason to believe the King of Chu ever took to a battlefield, and even less to believe he had ever fought on a battlefield..
A king doesn’t need high IQ nor do they need high battle IQ. Oftentimes, Kings were simply acknowledged by virtue of their lineages and not their actual leadership ability. Look at Toujou, not one motherfucker in Zhao respected him but they acknowledged him as King because of his lineage, and because Toujou didn’t care what his court did so his reign made it easy for them to pursue their own agendas. Toujou’s successor is similar, no one respects him at all but they acknowledge him as King because of traditionalism.
Shunshinkun also acknowledged Kouretsu as King because playing nice was politically advantageous for Shunshinkun and would ultimately allow him to position himself as Kouretsu’s successor.
As for battle IQ, again this is definitely not needed to be King. I’ve already cited examples of this in Qin and Zhao but really every King in this manga is the same except for King Sho. No King’s in this manga have possessed exceptional military knowledge, even some of the ones with more advanced military acumen like Sei really only seem to know the basics of warfare and their knowledge doesn’t go in depth. A King’s job is not to know the subtleties and nuances of warfare, that is a General’s job and the job for your strategists. If you, as a King, have great strategists and generals under you, it doesn’t matter how much you yourself know because you can let your generals and strategists handle warfare for you. That’s the entire point of having generals and strategists, you employ people who know more about war than you do, and you can focus on other things like politics which is much more important for a King to understand.
Again, Kouretsu was great at this. Politically his entire court respected/feared him, and he acknowledged that his generals knew more about military affairs than he did so he pretty much seemed to listen to them. Knowing when to listen to your experts does not make you a legitimate source on warfare, especially when Kouretsu seemed ignorant to how army movement and battle flow actually works with Renpa having to educate him. The man was a strong politician, not a military mind.
As for his physical strength:crushing walnuts does not translate to experience fighting on the battlefield, lol…sure Kouretsu seemed to be physically strong but there is zero reason to believe the King of Chu ever took to a battlefield, and even less to believe he had ever fought on a battlefield..
I think there are some things we have to take into considération :
- for Ouki vs Houken : Ouki had fucking weight while Houken had none even if Houken was the better martial artist
but Ouki weight was particular this fight (and both times he fought against Houken) : Houken killed Kyou, the love of his life.
Ouki had an extra motivation during this fight.
Ouki fighting the one responsible for Kyou death > Normal Ouki
If Houken hadn’t killed Kyou I don’t know what would have happened during this fight. Houken would still be stronger, Ouki a beast + weight but without a little something more. Maybe they would have been dead equal and not Ouki > Houken like we witnessed
So yeah weight can increase during some moments
- same with Moubu vs Kanmei : At one moment Kanmei did injure Mouten and Moubu entered rage mode and fuck him up. But it was a situational boost that isn’t always here in his weight.
Moubu was already a shade above Kanmei in the end and broke his mace but Mouten being injured in front of him give him again an extra boost.
- So I indeed think that weight is not a determined amount of bonus but can vary.
So about Kanmei vs Ouki :
Kanmei is stronger than Ouki no doubt. And he has weight
But Ouki is likely the bigger general but martially weaker. Except Kou En who went to hide, Renpa his equal, and Riboku who was just revealed, Ouki was the biggest general of the manga.
They can be around equal or maybe Kanmei winning. I can see Kanmei winning this but barely.
But if Kanmei had killed Kyocera, Ouki would fuck him up
- for Ouki vs Houken : Ouki had fucking weight while Houken had none even if Houken was the better martial artist
but Ouki weight was particular this fight (and both times he fought against Houken) : Houken killed Kyou, the love of his life.
Ouki had an extra motivation during this fight.
Ouki fighting the one responsible for Kyou death > Normal Ouki
If Houken hadn’t killed Kyou I don’t know what would have happened during this fight. Houken would still be stronger, Ouki a beast + weight but without a little something more. Maybe they would have been dead equal and not Ouki > Houken like we witnessed
So yeah weight can increase during some moments
- same with Moubu vs Kanmei : At one moment Kanmei did injure Mouten and Moubu entered rage mode and fuck him up. But it was a situational boost that isn’t always here in his weight.
Moubu was already a shade above Kanmei in the end and broke his mace but Mouten being injured in front of him give him again an extra boost.
- So I indeed think that weight is not a determined amount of bonus but can vary.
So about Kanmei vs Ouki :
Kanmei is stronger than Ouki no doubt. And he has weight
But Ouki is likely the bigger general but martially weaker. Except Kou En who went to hide, Renpa his equal, and Riboku who was just revealed, Ouki was the biggest general of the manga.
They can be around equal or maybe Kanmei winning. I can see Kanmei winning this but barely.
But if Kanmei had killed Kyocera, Ouki would fuck him up
