Powers & Abilities Ousen is more suited than SHK for head of military affairs position

Would Ousen make a better chief than SHK?


  • Total voters
    15
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Dragomir

#21
You're being heavily biased imo.

"Ousen can come with this grand elaborate plans in no time on the battlefield". What grand elaborate plans has he come up with in no time? His plans for invasions have taken months to come up with. I'm guessing you're thinking of something like the Locust?

Tactics.. when's the last time you saw SHK's tactics? He's only stepped foot on the battlefield once in the series, and his tactics shown were top tier when he did. Then before that he gave the Moubu army a strategem to execute which utilized Moubu's strength and capabilities to it's highest degree and end up mowing through the chu. You gotta explain bro how you think the dude that runs the state's biggest strategist academy would be that inferior to Ousen in tactics, especially when tactics are the very core of being a strategist.

What's the primary job of a Chief of Military? Being able to create the strongest military for his nation. Shit like strategy is secondary to that. The very first and most important job of the CoM is being able to utilize the nation's resources to create the strongest possible military. And you're saying Ousen can do that better than SHK?

Has Ousen displayed he can nurture talent like SHK can?
Has Ousen displayed his foresight is on par with SHK?
Has Ousen displayed his eye for talent is on par with SHK?
These are completely arbitrary numbers made up to just drive my point home. Don't take them too seriously.
I think you missed this part of my post.

Obviously, SHK isn't some slouch and the gap between him and Ousen in tactics isn't huge but I think it's slightly bigger than it is with strategy which means it's better to have him on the field than SHK if Qin wants to be as efficient as possible. This what I was trying to convey.
 
#22
Yes, Ousen is a perfect candidate to be a head of military. But to replace SHK may not be reasonable choice. Also SHK has more fame and influence in the court as well as Qin itself due to his past of Pillar of Ryofoi.

Discard the past of Ousen and he might be the excellent choice for that post.
what's his past..?? Is there something sketchy there.?

Gigachad Ousen in a matter of minutes conjured a plan that will wipe out the Zhao dynasty from the face of the earth.
SHK didn't have the info on now heavily reinforced forts of Zhao, he could have come up with the idea too.
Ousen has a better eye for people, is far more cunning & ruthless and with a more dominating personality.
SHK was the one who picked Ousen to be a Chief of Zhao campaign meaning he too has an eye for people.
 
#23
I think you missed this part of my post.

Obviously, SHK isn't some slouch and the gap between him and Ousen in tactics isn't huge but I think it's slightly bigger than it is with strategy which means it's better to have him on the field than SHK if Qin wants to be as efficient as possible. This what I was trying to convey.
I didn't, It's why I didn't mention any numbers in my post nor addressed anything related to the numbers. It's also why I didn't ask about why you think there's a huge gap between them or even mention you saying there's a huge gap between them. (So not really sure why you brought up the numbers quote)

1st: "What grand elaborate plans has he come up with in no time? His plans for invasions have taken months to come up with. I'm guessing you're thinking of something like the Locust?"
2nd: "You gotta explain bro how you think the dude that runs the state's biggest strategist academy would be that inferior to Ousen in tactics, especially when tactics are the very core of being a strategist."

3rd: "And you're saying Ousen can do that better than SHK?

Has Ousen displayed he can nurture talent like SHK can?
Has Ousen displayed his foresight is on par with SHK?
Has Ousen displayed his eye for talent is on par with SHK?
"


All 3 of the points and questions from those points are addressing the very things you're trying to convey:
- Ousen being the superior strategist
- Ousen being the superior one in on-battlefield tactics
- Ousen being able to think quicker
- Ousen would be the superior CoM

My post has nothing to do with the numbers you mentioned.
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hell nah

shk is better than anyone
the only suitable among current 6gg is tou
For sure, Tou's the only one I can think of as well, just even in the entirety of China from the characters we've seen (which backs up his historical role in the Qin unification pretty nicely too).
 
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Dragomir

#24
I didn't, It's why I didn't mention any numbers in my post nor addressed anything related to the numbers. It's also why I didn't ask about why you think there's a huge gap between them or even mention you saying there's a huge gap between them. (So not really sure why you brought up the numbers quote)

1st: "What grand elaborate plans has he come up with in no time? His plans for invasions have taken months to come up with. I'm guessing you're thinking of something like the Locust?"
2nd: "You gotta explain bro how you think the dude that runs the state's biggest strategist academy would be that inferior to Ousen in tactics, especially when tactics are the very core of being a strategist."

3rd: "And you're saying Ousen can do that better than SHK?

Has Ousen displayed he can nurture talent like SHK can?
Has Ousen displayed his foresight is on par with SHK?
Has Ousen displayed his eye for talent is on par with SHK?
"


All 3 of the points and questions from those points are addressing the very things you're trying to convey:
- Ousen being the superior strategist
- Ousen being the superior one in on-battlefield tactics
- Ousen being able to think quicker

My post has nothing to do with the numbers you mentioned.
1. Yes, I'm thinking of the locust.

2. This question pertains to the numbers I brought up which is why I was trying to explain that there isn't an actual big gap. I think they're pretty close in everything. I only used the numbers to help illustrate my point. It doesn't seem as if you're disagreeing with the actual point but just the details of it.

3. I do not understand what these 3 things have to do with Ousen being the overall better strategic mind than SHK but for efficiency purposes, it's better to leave Ousen on the field with SHK as the chief. I don't know how good Ousen can nurture talent as we've never seen him do so. To answer your question no, he hasn't.
 
#25
1. Yes, I'm thinking of the locust.

2. This question pertains to the numbers I brought up which is why I was trying to explain that there isn't an actual big gap. I think they're pretty close in everything. I only used the numbers to help illustrate my point. It doesn't seem as if you're disagreeing with the actual point but just the details of it.

3. I do not understand what these 3 things have to do with Ousen being the overall better strategic mind than SHK but for efficiency purposes, it's better to leave Ousen on the field with SHK as the chief. I don't know how good Ousen can nurture talent as we've never seen him do so. To answer your question no, he hasn't.
1. Right so he played good on the part that SHK made him the CIC for, which is being able to come up with strategy for the invasion as the events change. If he didn't come up with a plan there one of the others would've had to, but it was Ousen's job to come up with it since he's the one who SHK selected to do it. Hell if he didn't come up with anything then Kanki or YTW would've had to step in and come up with something. The issue is the implying that this means he's a better quick thinker than SHK, when you've never seen SHK be put in that situation.

2. It doesn't pertain to the numbers bro, nowhere I talk about how huge the gap is. I'm guessing the "that inferior" is what's making you think it's referring to the numbers, but nah, It's addressing the point you're trying to illustrate which is Ousen > SHK as a tactician, and I'm ask why or how you came to that conclusion when SHK is in charge of the biggest strategist school in the nation, and tactics are the very core of strategies.

3. They don't have to do with strategy, they're related to your starting statement: "Ousen would make a better chief"
To which I replied fully with:

"What's the primary job of a Chief of Military? Being able to create the strongest military for his nation. Shit like strategy is secondary to that. The very first and most important job of the CoM is being able to utilize the nation's resources to create the strongest possible military. And you're saying Ousen can do that better than SHK?

Has Ousen displayed he can nurture talent like SHK can?
Has Ousen displayed his foresight is on par with SHK?

Has Ousen displayed his eye for talent is on par with SHK? "


We haven't seen Ousen nurture talent? He's been trying to make his own kingdom without trying to nurture talent? Come on now man, Ousen surely isn't that stupid. Fact is the best guy he raised up under him is Akou, who's a cool subordinate maybe on par with 1 of the 4 HKs, but that's about it.
 
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Dragomir

#26
1. Right so he played good on the part that SHK made him the CIC for, which is being able to come up with strategy for the invasion as the events change. If he didn't come up with a plan there one of the others would've had to, but it was Ousen's job to come up with it since neither Kanki or YTW were focused on that. The issue is the implying that this means he's a better quick thinker than SHK, when you've never seen SHK be put in that situation.

2. It doesn't pertain to the numbers bro, nowhere I talk about how huge the gap is. I'm guessing the "that inferior" is what's making you think it's referring It's addressing the point you're trying to illustrate which is Ousen > SHK as a tactician, and I'm ask why or how you came to that conclusion when SHK

3. They don't have to do with strategy, they're related to your starting statement: "Ousen would make a better chief"
To which I replied fully with:

"What's the primary job of a Chief of Military? Being able to create the strongest military for his nation. Shit like strategy is secondary to that. The very first and most important job of the CoM is being able to utilize the nation's resources to create the strongest possible military. And you're saying Ousen can do that better than SHK?

Has Ousen displayed he can nurture talent like SHK can?
Has Ousen displayed his foresight is on par with SHK?

Has Ousen displayed his eye for talent is on par with SHK? "


We haven't seen Ousen nurture talent? He's been trying to make his own kingdom without trying to nurture talent? Come on now man, Ousen surely isn't that stupid. Fact is the best guy he raised up under him is Akou, who's a cool subordinate maybe on par with 1 of the 4 HKs, but that's about it.
Well, it's a matter of feats. Ousen currently holds the better tactic feats than SHK does. You can argue that we haven't seen SHK in battle much, making it hard to judge how great he is in comparison which is fair, but I'm leaning towards Ousen for now.

Okay, I see what you mean. That's a good point. Is your overarching point that SHK is simply better at chief-related stuff than Ousen is, making him the better person for the job?
 
#27
Well, it's a matter of feats. Ousen currently holds the better tactic feats than SHK does. You can argue that we haven't seen SHK in battle much, making it hard to judge how great he is in comparison which is fair, but I'm leaning towards Ousen for now.

Okay, I see what you mean. That's a good point. Is your overarching point that SHK is simply better at chief-related stuff than Ousen is, making him the better person for the job?
Right that's my overarching point. Ousen can be better in strategies, sure, but doesn't equate to him being the better CoM, when the primary job of the CoM isn't strategies, it's making the nation's military the strongest it can be. (Refer back to why Karin was selected as CoM for Chu). Strategists can do that better than anyone, however, that doesn't mean all strategists are of the same capability when it comes to that.

Look at the sheer foresight and eye of talent SHK had, he for years was looking at his goal, and for which he knew he'd need youngins who can rise up to be top tiers. So what did he do?
-> Raised Mouten as the top strategist of his generation
-> Raised Mouki as the top 3 strategist for his generation
-> The moment he saw Ten and from knowing about Ten's events he says "I've attained a good piece", proceeds to raise her to be top 2 strategist of her generation
-> Tried to recruit Kyoukai and Shin due to the potential he saw in them, while nobody else even made an attempt. Despite them not messing with him, he did everything he could from the sideline to stimulate their growth, even allowing them to stay together as a unit.
-> Groomed up Ouhon as well
-> Purposely held back the promotions for the M3 so they could further develop their skills. Purposely developed the M3 as independent units so they can enhance their quick-decision making on the battlefield (the thing you're saying SHK is inferior to Ousen in).


While bringing up ALL youngins that'll be the main stairs of the next generation. He also sees talents in utilizing his present generals properly and setting them up for the eventual unification. Ousen goes from Vice-General under Mougou, to being given the most important role in the Coalition next to Moubu (as the Shield to Moubu's Sword). Aware of Kanki's talents and personality, puts him alongside two veterans who could keep Kanki in check, while Kanki being able to carry them from a talent perspective. Hell recognizing Ousen would be the best out of YTW & Kanki in making on-site decisions of the campaign, despite Ousen never having led a single large campaign before. Like lordy, you can go on about this dude's vision.



Cause at end of the day strategies from the CoM are only ever gonna be good for initial starts of the campaign, no matter who the CoM is. Everything after that is all dependent on the generals there. See the situation with Juuki & Karin, she can't make strategies for Juuko without actually being on the battlefield. Hence, SHK couldn't make strategies against Riboku after Riboku countered his initial one, without actually being there on the site. But all of that stuff above comes before making strategies for grand campaigns or some shit.


Now as for who's superior out of the two strategically? I think they're both on par, and that's Hara's viewpoint as well, especially when taking into account historical events. Their stats progression reflects that as well. And in the series nothing has pointed to SHK > Ousen or Ousen > SHK in any definite manner for me to go with either. So going with SHK ~ Ousen. Example, if Riboku is able to edge out Ousen in their Shukai plains battle, then SHK & Ousen would be a dead stalemate.
 
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#28
what's his past..?? Is there something sketchy there.?
Even though he was highly regarded as someone whose strategical acuity is already on the same level Qin six (said by Koshou who was pure strategical general amongst 6gg and also the teacher of SHK) at very young age, he showed his ambitions of becoming either the king of Qin or of his own state (not cleared between the two from SBK), that's why King Sho put him away from military and court. He didn't let him create his own army.

He started his military campaign under the flags of MouGu after EiSei became the king. A few months before Wei campaign (first war for Shin) as stated by Ouki.
 
#29
No Ousen is not better tactically than SHK. Even if one would want to use the WZI campaign.
I'm sorry what??? Ousen has a better eye for people than SHK???

SHK who essentially raised 5 future Qin 6 level inidividuals - Shin, Kyoukai, Ouhon, Mouten, Ten (and 6 if you think Mouki can get there).

Bro... what
SHK didn't raise Shin, Kai & Ouhon, they were young commanders with great achievements on thrir record, any chief would see their potential.
Mouten, Ten and Mouki were attending his school. SHK is a military genius so it's not surprising they're picking up his legacy. Ousen, without the luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids, actively taught his retinue to imitate his tactics on the field during times of war.

Ousen raised Ouhon to a general just by ignoring him :kappa:
He saw Mouten's potential to the point that he gave him the responsibility of starting the war in that peculiar fashion. Later he gave him command of the left wing.

During the predicament the right wing was going through, Ousen gave no commands for a couple days predicting the awakening of the Hi Shin unit, which later on carried the whole war by crushing Zhao's left wing, slaying 2 generals and 1 great heaven in the process.

Not only with allies, foes too seeing how Ousen literally outdid Riboku in every instant of their war.

Also Tou is lacking big time in intelligence. He is an exceptional character with long years of experience but head of the military is outstetching it. Against someone like Riboku Tou would be helpless.

SHK didn't have the info on now heavily reinforced forts of Zhao, he could have come up with the idea too.
It wasn't about heavily reinforced forts but the opposite. The whole problem with SHK is lack of info on Retsubi's lack of defenses which is understandable. SHK may have come up with a plan but that's something we don't know. I honestly don't believe SHK has the balls to go for such plan, especially with how complicated the situation was, and what is more mindblowing is the fact that Ousen doesn't do battles he can lose, and yet in a couple of minutes he came up with this plan and went for it.

Not to mention if Ousen didn't come up with the plan to resupply the army using Qi, SHK would've went for the different routes and the 3 Qin 6 with their armies would've been pulverized.
 
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Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
#30
Say Ousen has a 100 in strategies and a 95 in tactics. SHK has a 95 in strategies and an 88 in tactics.
Disagree, Shouheikun has just as good of tactics as Ousen if not better. Shouheikun indirectly broke Kanmei’s colossally strong Chu army to smithereens with tactics, and he tactically dismantled Wategi with a 10:1 disadvantage.

Why you sleeping on Shouheikun tactically?

:parkcry:
 
#31
Disagree, Shouheikun has just as good of tactics as Ousen if not better. Shouheikun indirectly broke Kanmei’s colossally strong Chu army to smithereens with tactics, and he tactically dismantled Wategi with a 10:1 disadvantage.

Why you sleeping on Shouheikun tactically?

:parkcry:
This, SHK could be #1 in china tactically. Grand stratagems are a different case, charisma also goes to Ousen naturally.
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Ousen is the Akainu of Kingdom
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
#32
Has Ousen displayed he can nurture talent like SHK can?
Has Ousen displayed his foresight is on par with SHK?

Has Ousen displayed his eye for talent is on par with SHK? "
I think you are overblowing what Shouheikun has done for raising Qin’s talent, and undervaluing Ousen’s ability to nurture talent when he wants to.

Shouheikun, outside of his strategist school, has had nothing to do with nurturing Qin’s young talent. In your initial post, you gave Shouheikun credit for nurturing Kyoukai, Shin, and Tou.

….what?? All he did was watch their achievements on the battlefield and promote them accordingly. We get a few panels of him remarking on how much potential each character has, and nothing else. He has literally had nothing to do with raising these 3 figures aside from promoting them after they bag great achievements.

Ousen on the other hand, he literally directly caused the Hi Shin and Gyoku Hou units to awaken at Shukai Plains by refusing to send help to them after Akou was defeating, for the explicit reason that Ousen predicted that withholding help from them would cause them to awaken.

Ousen also appointed Mouten the General of the left at Shukai Plains because he recognized Mouten’s great talent early on, and this ended up saving the Qin from total defeat.

Just throwing that in real quick. Shouheikun is my favorite character in Kingdom but you shouldn’t attribute feats to him that he has had nothing to do with lol.
 
#39
Ousen’s grand strategy (most likely) is to become King of a unified China. To that end, he would never take civilian life lol.
Didn't sound like that to me. He told Riboku that they'll create a new state unrivalled by the current ones. Taking over the previously reigning dynasty has happened several times from what i remember and i think that's not what Ousen's goal was.
 
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