Controversial RELIGIONS & SPIRITUALITIES : Conversations
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There are some topics we can talk about as to why God did something, with others, not as much, but, I would like to suggest that if the Bible is true, God never changes, and we have seen Him many times do as much good as can be done and His actions being misunderstood by people who lacked information about those actions, so while I may not have the context of everything, the track record of trusting Him is the best track record there is, and I have records of the experiences of people who lacked information, like I may, and didn't follow that track record, and their opinions were mistaken about it,
I don't trust someone who consider suffering as part of their plan.
No matter what the plan is. If suffering is involved, I don't want anything to do with it. If God exist, they killed millions, let millions dies, indirectely killed a lot too, justified slavery and sufferings and people are justifying that with "the trust of his plan".
I'm sorry but there is no excuze for me, not matter the level of 1000D reality chest the cosmic level being is playing, I don't want to be part of a plan of a being that justify suffering as part of it and ask us to trust him. In real life, this is what sociopath do.
So if god exists, I will be against god.
No matter what the plan is. If suffering is involved, I don't want anything to do with it. If God exist, they killed millions, let millions dies, indirectely killed a lot too, justified slavery and sufferings and people are justifying that with "the trust of his plan".
I'm sorry but there is no excuze for me, not matter the level of 1000D reality chest the cosmic level being is playing, I don't want to be part of a plan of a being that justify suffering as part of it and ask us to trust him. In real life, this is what sociopath do.
So if god exists, I will be against god.
In some texts, slavery is clearly seen as something normal.
As for suffering as part of the plan, this is what I always get as a counter argument when I explain that God (if they exist) :
- Created disasters that kills people (and do not save them)
- That they created hell, a place literally meant as a place of suffering (which is contrary to any ethic and moral I know)
- That god killed themselve or indirectly millions of people through plagues floods etc.
- That god do not intervene when people are in danger
- That god do not care to ease the sufferings of millions
To that people reply to things:
- Free will
- It's god's plan, we have to trust him
I'm sorry but at no point I can trust someone so horrible. The presence of freewill is not an excuse to inaction. Palestinians have freewill and yet we (miliants and politics) are trying everything possible to stop the genocide from Israelian at the moment. The free will of people or a "plan" is NOT an excuse for any being (however 1000D reality chest game they are playing) to not intervene or in some case to do those things themselves, no matter how good the plan will be for people later, EVEN if he plans to ressurect everyone later. I don't care.
God is wrong, god is a problem. If God exist, I'm against god.
As for suffering as part of the plan, this is what I always get as a counter argument when I explain that God (if they exist) :
- Created disasters that kills people (and do not save them)
- That they created hell, a place literally meant as a place of suffering (which is contrary to any ethic and moral I know)
- That god killed themselve or indirectly millions of people through plagues floods etc.
- That god do not intervene when people are in danger
- That god do not care to ease the sufferings of millions
To that people reply to things:
- Free will
- It's god's plan, we have to trust him
I'm sorry but at no point I can trust someone so horrible. The presence of freewill is not an excuse to inaction. Palestinians have freewill and yet we (miliants and politics) are trying everything possible to stop the genocide from Israelian at the moment. The free will of people or a "plan" is NOT an excuse for any being (however 1000D reality chest game they are playing) to not intervene or in some case to do those things themselves, no matter how good the plan will be for people later, EVEN if he plans to ressurect everyone later. I don't care.
God is wrong, god is a problem. If God exist, I'm against god.
Ecclesiastes 1:1-18
The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.
Wisdom Is Meaningless
12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
What is crooked cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I said to myself, “Look, I have increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.
18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes 12:1-14
Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come
and the years approach when you will say,
“I find no pleasure in them”—
2 before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few,
and those looking through the windows grow dim;
4 when the doors to the street are closed
and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds,
but all their songs grow faint;
5 when people are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets;
when the almond tree blossoms
and the grasshopper drags itself along
and desire no longer is stirred.
Then people go to their eternal home
and mourners go about the streets.
6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.[a]
“Everything is meaningless!”
The Conclusion of the Matter
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.[b] 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Footnotes
The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.
Wisdom Is Meaningless
12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
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What is crooked cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I said to myself, “Look, I have increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.
18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
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Ecclesiastes 12:1-14
Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come
and the years approach when you will say,
“I find no pleasure in them”—
2 before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few,
and those looking through the windows grow dim;
4 when the doors to the street are closed
and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds,
but all their songs grow faint;
5 when people are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets;
when the almond tree blossoms
and the grasshopper drags itself along
and desire no longer is stirred.
Then people go to their eternal home
and mourners go about the streets.
6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.[a]
“Everything is meaningless!”
The Conclusion of the Matter
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.[b] 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Footnotes
- Ecclesiastes 12:8 Or the leader of the assembly; also in verses 9 and 10
- Ecclesiastes 12:11 Or Shepherd
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I disagree that the presence of slaves is seen as normal, for three main reasons,
1. God is for freedom
2. We are told by Jesus that God allowed the israelites to do some evil out of the hardness of their hearts, because their hearts were too hardened, He allowed it so events would happen and His body would be born to save the people in the world, but, slavery was not one of those things He allowed, here is why that is true:
Jesus said a man putting away his wife except for the cause of fornication is a sin
Matthew 19:1-9
19 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
When the pharisees asked Jesus, why then did Moses allow us to put away our wives?
Jesus said
"8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
"
So, because of the hardness of the people's hearts, Jesus allowed them to engage in some evil if they wanted to in order for events to happen in the way for the people in the world to be saved
I think the question is, is slavery one of the things He tolerated out of the hardness of their hearts? No. Why? Because Exodus 21:16
Exodus 21:16
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
3. Some people who legally "owned" slaves would read books to slaves to keep them obedient, and religion was used to control them yes, but not the Bible, instead a false version of the Bible which was false because all verses about freedom were removed from it, and it is called the Slave Bible,
The reason a made up version of the Bible was made, which unless they added fake pro-slavery verses to it, with all its verses about freedom removed, wouldn't even specifically be pro-slavery, is because the real Bible leads to freedom and revolts and they felt that their "businesses" and power would be endagered if the slaves heard God say to them to be free,
Some articles about the slave bible:
+ What is the slave bible, who made it and why
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible/what-is-the-slave-bible-who-made-it-and-why.html
+ Slave bible from the 1800s omitted key passages that could incite rebellion
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/6749...tted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion
+ Why Bibles given to slaves omitted most of the old testament
https://www.history.com/news/slave-bible-redacted-old-testament
A lot of politics was also inspired by the Bible, John Brown was a person who fought against slavery, although I heard he made some mistakes in the individuals he fought against, because he saw its evils and saw God in the Bible say it is evil, he was executed to death, and John brown's death was one of the "things" that started the american civil war the abolishment of slavery
Here is what he said in court:
John Brown's speech to the court at his trial 1859:
https://nationalcenter.org/ncppr/2001/11/03/john-browns-speech-to-the-court-at-his-trial-1859/
Or on the content section of the wikipedia article about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_last_speech
"
1. God is for freedom
2. We are told by Jesus that God allowed the israelites to do some evil out of the hardness of their hearts, because their hearts were too hardened, He allowed it so events would happen and His body would be born to save the people in the world, but, slavery was not one of those things He allowed, here is why that is true:
Jesus said a man putting away his wife except for the cause of fornication is a sin
Matthew 19:1-9
19 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
When the pharisees asked Jesus, why then did Moses allow us to put away our wives?
Jesus said
"8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
"
So, because of the hardness of the people's hearts, Jesus allowed them to engage in some evil if they wanted to in order for events to happen in the way for the people in the world to be saved
I think the question is, is slavery one of the things He tolerated out of the hardness of their hearts? No. Why? Because Exodus 21:16
Exodus 21:16
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
3. Some people who legally "owned" slaves would read books to slaves to keep them obedient, and religion was used to control them yes, but not the Bible, instead a false version of the Bible which was false because all verses about freedom were removed from it, and it is called the Slave Bible,
The reason a made up version of the Bible was made, which unless they added fake pro-slavery verses to it, with all its verses about freedom removed, wouldn't even specifically be pro-slavery, is because the real Bible leads to freedom and revolts and they felt that their "businesses" and power would be endagered if the slaves heard God say to them to be free,
Some articles about the slave bible:
+ What is the slave bible, who made it and why
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible/what-is-the-slave-bible-who-made-it-and-why.html
+ Slave bible from the 1800s omitted key passages that could incite rebellion
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/6749...tted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion
+ Why Bibles given to slaves omitted most of the old testament
https://www.history.com/news/slave-bible-redacted-old-testament
Post automatically merged:
A lot of politics was also inspired by the Bible, John Brown was a person who fought against slavery, although I heard he made some mistakes in the individuals he fought against, because he saw its evils and saw God in the Bible say it is evil, he was executed to death, and John brown's death was one of the "things" that started the american civil war the abolishment of slavery
Here is what he said in court:
John Brown's speech to the court at his trial 1859:
https://nationalcenter.org/ncppr/2001/11/03/john-browns-speech-to-the-court-at-his-trial-1859/
Or on the content section of the wikipedia article about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_last_speech
"
I have, may it please the court, a few words to say.
In the first place, I deny everything but what I have all along admitted, the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter, when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again, on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection.
I have another objection; and that is, it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty. Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case), had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment.
This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that "all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them" [Matthew 7:12]. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them" [Hebrews 13:3]. I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
Let me say one word further.
I feel entirely satisfied with the treatment I have received on my trial. Considering all the circumstances, it has been more generous than I expected. But I feel no consciousness of guilt. I have stated from the first [day] what was my intention and what was not. I never had any design against the life of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason, or excite slaves to rebel, or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind.
Let me say, also, a word in regard to the statements made by some of those connected with me. I hear it has been stated by some of them that I have induced them to join me. But the contrary is true. I do not say this to injure them, but as regretting their weakness. There is not one of them but joined me of his own accord, and the greater part of them at their own expense. A number of them I never saw, and never had a word of conversation with, till the day they came to me; and that was for the purpose I have stated.
Now I have done.[2]: 340–342
In the first place, I deny everything but what I have all along admitted, the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter, when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again, on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection.
I have another objection; and that is, it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty. Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case), had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment.
This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that "all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them" [Matthew 7:12]. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them" [Hebrews 13:3]. I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
Let me say one word further.
I feel entirely satisfied with the treatment I have received on my trial. Considering all the circumstances, it has been more generous than I expected. But I feel no consciousness of guilt. I have stated from the first [day] what was my intention and what was not. I never had any design against the life of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason, or excite slaves to rebel, or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind.
Let me say, also, a word in regard to the statements made by some of those connected with me. I hear it has been stated by some of them that I have induced them to join me. But the contrary is true. I do not say this to injure them, but as regretting their weakness. There is not one of them but joined me of his own accord, and the greater part of them at their own expense. A number of them I never saw, and never had a word of conversation with, till the day they came to me; and that was for the purpose I have stated.
Now I have done.[2]: 340–342
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All of is crazy mental gymnastics.
Why dont you go further down that exodus chapter?
“20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."
And that entire part of matthew is about divorce and has nothing to do with slavery. . .
Why dont you go further down that exodus chapter?
“20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."
And that entire part of matthew is about divorce and has nothing to do with slavery. . .
May I ask what translation you use? I used the KJV and it says manservant and womanservant, not slave
Exodus 21:20-21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Exodus 21:26-27
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Manservant and womanservant reffers to people who would enter contacts of employment with others to serve them for 7 years and then be sent away with some more riches,
Two examples of that:
Exodus 21:1-6
21 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Genesis 29:18-30
18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
19 And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.
27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
Why is it mental gymnastics if it also says in Exodus 21:16
"And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."
Then by law if you kidnap someone and sell them, or if someone is found in your hand, as in owned by you, you get put to death, so slavery is outlawed,
Also Matthew is relevant, it does not talk about slavery, it talks about divorce, Jesus says it is a sin, the pharisees ask Why did Moses then let us divorce? And Jesus says that Out of the hardness of their hearts Moses allowed them to divorce, as in God allowed them to do that evil because their hearts were too hardened to listen to Him and so He let them do that so events would happen as they must, but despite Him tolersting divorce, He did not tolerate slavery, as can be seen by the commandment outlawing it,
I had an ecclesiastes style depression but I have decided life may is worth living as I can help others and overcome more sin too to not feel miserable because of the death it brings,
Exodus 21:20-21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Exodus 21:26-27
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Manservant and womanservant reffers to people who would enter contacts of employment with others to serve them for 7 years and then be sent away with some more riches,
Two examples of that:
Exodus 21:1-6
21 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Genesis 29:18-30
18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
19 And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.
27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
Why is it mental gymnastics if it also says in Exodus 21:16
"And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."
Then by law if you kidnap someone and sell them, or if someone is found in your hand, as in owned by you, you get put to death, so slavery is outlawed,
Also Matthew is relevant, it does not talk about slavery, it talks about divorce, Jesus says it is a sin, the pharisees ask Why did Moses then let us divorce? And Jesus says that Out of the hardness of their hearts Moses allowed them to divorce, as in God allowed them to do that evil because their hearts were too hardened to listen to Him and so He let them do that so events would happen as they must, but despite Him tolersting divorce, He did not tolerate slavery, as can be seen by the commandment outlawing it,
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I had an ecclesiastes style depression but I have decided life may is worth living as I can help others and overcome more sin too to not feel miserable because of the death it brings,
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