Powers & Abilities Revisiting the Haki vs Devil Fruit Debate

#1
The haki > devil fruit started around the time haki was first introduced as a means to nullify/negate logia intangibility. Then we had Luffy and Zoro having haki focused training in the time skip. Then we had Doffy saying that Law can't cut vergo with his hax powers due to Vergo's haki (Law still cut him so Law's haki > Vergo's haki). Next we had Zoro vs Pica in which says the he won't be cut (after Zoro diced his stone form) if Pica clads himself in haki (like Law vs Vergo now we have Zoro's haki > Pica's haki).

Skipping a few things to make it short, we had Law on RT explaining that he can't move Kaido and BM due to their haki. Then we had Kaido saying that Roger was at the top because of his haki, haki transcends all. In the latest chapter we have Law saying the same thing and breaking out of Doc Qs disease.

We also have some legends, arguably the strongest of their eras who are just haki centric fighters like Mihawk, Roger, Ryuma, Garp, Shanks, Rayleigh, Oden. We have seen certain characters' disdain for devil fruits' robbing the ability to swim for granting a special power. The general consensus is that RHPs are mostly haki centric fighters also, at least Shanks and Benn (the top two strongest) and it is based on Shanks learnings as an apprentice on Roger's crew where most also seemed to be haki centric or at least the top two, Roger and Rayleigh. Shanks is also said to have tracked famous people/fighters to invite them to his crew (Buggy was the first invite though). Given that Shanks also asked Marco it does not seem to be a very strict rule.

On the other side we have BBPs who are hunting down powerful devil fruits and consuming them to become powerful themselves. And we have the Marines who seem to give very powerful (top tier) devil fruits to their admirals. BB spent so much time on WB crew, he should have seen that haki is the strongest power. Marines have been fighting top tiers, they have Garp, they should know that haki transcends all.

My take from all this is that in 1v1 combat, haki is the deciding factor. However, as a whole and in terms of added versatility devil fruits are unmatched. Roger was equal to or stronger than WB in a 1v1 but in overall power outside of duels WB was way more powerful. I can't see Roger's haki slashes and shockwaves causing tsunamis and earthquakes on far away islands. Shanks CoC damaging WB ships is nothing compared to the power of Gura Gura.

With BB being shown so much devil fruit centric we forget that until very recently (start of Luffy's journey) BB had not consumed a devil fruit. Until that time he himself was a haki centric fighter and as haki is equal to spirit/will/ambition, BB should have top tier haki (CoC is questionable) since his ambition is also top tier. If you take away the fruit powers of guys like the admirals or BB or WB you would still have a very strong 1v1 fighter. They would just be slightly weaker than their haki only counter parts because those guys spent their whole time focused on a single style/power while the devil fruit guys had their focus divided between devil fruit and haki mastery.
 
#2
Here's my take, and it probably matches up with yours:

In a 1 vs 1, the person with the more proficiient haki has the edge. But there's still levels to it.

An awakened Devil Fruit user with mediocre haki still beats a guy who's haki is just above mediocre. Haki makes an impact when the difference between two person's haki is substantial.

To be a powerhouse without any haki is impossible. But a DF that offers great destructive force (i.e. guragura, or magu magu) can deal great damage even with mediocre haki (not saying the current users have mediocre haki btw)
 
#3
Here's my take, and it probably matches up with yours:

In a 1 vs 1, the person with the more proficiient haki has the edge. But there's still levels to it.

An awakened Devil Fruit user with mediocre haki still beats a guy who's haki is just above mediocre. Haki makes an impact when the difference between two person's haki is substantial.

To be a powerhouse without any haki is impossible. But a DF that offers great destructive force (i.e. guragura, or magu magu) can deal great damage even with mediocre haki (not saying the current users have mediocre haki btw)
I would also like to add to your explanation that physical strength also amplifies haki and someone with slightly weaker haki but greater physical strength may actually beat someone with slightly greater haki but weaker physical strength. Not an absolute rule since this is shonen and we just had Kaido and Luffy match blows for blows even though Luffy is physically way weaker than Kaido.

And that there should be a clear difference between haki mastery and haki strength. Generally saying that higher haki mastery should also mean greater haki strength but this is not something set in stone. For example even though Boa's sisters had the barrier haki/ryuo like Sentomaru and Rayleigh, their haki strength is significantly weaker than Rayleigh's. Even though full body haki used by Vergo and Pica shows greater haki mastery, Law and Zoro had stronger haki than those two guys even though they had lower mastery and hence why they cut them.
 
#4
I would also like to add to your explanation that physical strength also amplifies haki and someone with slightly weaker haki but greater physical strength may actually beat someone with slightly greater haki but weaker physical strength. Not an absolute rule since this is shonen and we just had Kaido and Luffy match blows for blows even though Luffy is physically way weaker than Kaido.

And that there should be a clear difference between haki mastery and haki strength. Generally saying that higher haki mastery should also mean greater haki strength but this is not something set in stone. For example even though Boa's sisters had the barrier haki/ryuo like Sentomaru and Rayleigh, their haki strength is significantly weaker than Rayleigh's. Even though full body haki used by Vergo and Pica shows greater haki mastery, Law and Zoro had stronger haki than those two guys even though they had lower mastery and hence why they cut them.
And in the end, and most importantly, due to the inonsistent ways Haki has been portrayed it is next to impossible to gauge who would win between people of the relatively same level.
 
#5
Haki>DFs becuase AdCoC is the dominant factor in top-tier fighting right now.

Those who without it unable to withstand a single stroke from an AdCoC user.

However, DFs are still important, even in top-tier fighting.

We've seen Luffy vs. Kaido before.
When we compare Haki to both of them, they aren't that different.

But their DFs are vastly different, similar to Dragon vs. God. That is why Luffy G5 can easily defeat Kaido.
 
#6
L
Haki>DFs becuase AdCoC is the dominant factor in top-tier fighting right now.

Those who without it unable to withstand a single stroke from an AdCoC user.

However, DFs are still important, even in top-tier fighting.

We've seen Luffy vs. Kaido before.
When we compare Haki to both of them, they aren't that different.

But their DFs are vastly different, similar to Dragon vs. God. That is why Luffy G5 can easily defeat Kaido.
Luffy can easilu defeat Kaido due to his CoC being stronger post Awakening, Gear 5 and INTERNAL DESTRUCTION HAKI. The internal destruction haki makes the difference. Especially boosted by COc.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#7
Haki will only prevent the hax parts of DFs that are used strictly offensively.
Anything that DF user can do to protect themselves will not be stopped by haki.
Luffy's haki couldnt stop Kaido's scales.

L
Luffy can easilu defeat Kaido due to his CoC being stronger post Awakening, Gear 5 and INTERNAL DESTRUCTION HAKI. The internal destruction haki makes the difference. Especially boosted by COc.
He cant defeat people that are weaker than Kaido so good luck with those delusions. :luffylaugh:
 
#8
The haki > devil fruit started around the time haki was first introduced as a means to nullify/negate logia intangibility. Then we had Luffy and Zoro having haki focused training in the time skip. Then we had Doffy saying that Law can't cut vergo with his hax powers due to Vergo's haki (Law still cut him so Law's haki > Vergo's haki). Next we had Zoro vs Pica in which says the he won't be cut (after Zoro diced his stone form) if Pica clads himself in haki (like Law vs Vergo now we have Zoro's haki > Pica's haki).

Skipping a few things to make it short, we had Law on RT explaining that he can't move Kaido and BM due to their haki. Then we had Kaido saying that Roger was at the top because of his haki, haki transcends all. In the latest chapter we have Law saying the same thing and breaking out of Doc Qs disease.

We also have some legends, arguably the strongest of their eras who are just haki centric fighters like Mihawk, Roger, Ryuma, Garp, Shanks, Rayleigh, Oden. We have seen certain characters' disdain for devil fruits' robbing the ability to swim for granting a special power. The general consensus is that RHPs are mostly haki centric fighters also, at least Shanks and Benn (the top two strongest) and it is based on Shanks learnings as an apprentice on Roger's crew where most also seemed to be haki centric or at least the top two, Roger and Rayleigh. Shanks is also said to have tracked famous people/fighters to invite them to his crew (Buggy was the first invite though). Given that Shanks also asked Marco it does not seem to be a very strict rule.

On the other side we have BBPs who are hunting down powerful devil fruits and consuming them to become powerful themselves. And we have the Marines who seem to give very powerful (top tier) devil fruits to their admirals. BB spent so much time on WB crew, he should have seen that haki is the strongest power. Marines have been fighting top tiers, they have Garp, they should know that haki transcends all.

My take from all this is that in 1v1 combat, haki is the deciding factor. However, as a whole and in terms of added versatility devil fruits are unmatched. Roger was equal to or stronger than WB in a 1v1 but in overall power outside of duels WB was way more powerful. I can't see Roger's haki slashes and shockwaves causing tsunamis and earthquakes on far away islands. Shanks CoC damaging WB ships is nothing compared to the power of Gura Gura.

With BB being shown so much devil fruit centric we forget that until very recently (start of Luffy's journey) BB had not consumed a devil fruit. Until that time he himself was a haki centric fighter and as haki is equal to spirit/will/ambition, BB should have top tier haki (CoC is questionable) since his ambition is also top tier. If you take away the fruit powers of guys like the admirals or BB or WB you would still have a very strong 1v1 fighter. They would just be slightly weaker than their haki only counter parts because those guys spent their whole time focused on a single style/power while the devil fruit guys had their focus divided between devil fruit and haki mastery.
Even BB is now showing good haki. Take off all haki from BB and he cannot compete.

Haki is now a must for all top tiers. Loda has made haki the end all be all. Even physical gods like Kaido have great haki.
 
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