Chapter Discussion Rokushiki is based on Haki
- Thread starter Sword God Ryuma
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It is a clear retcon. Do not search logic there. Just accept it in your heart 
Still not sold on it, Rivaille-san. 
It would give some uniqueness to WG's combatants.
It would give some uniqueness to WG's combatants.
Oda will do what he has to do to make everything haki,
There is no fight without haki,
And Haki can only flourish in fight,
There are Devil fruits, yet haki
There are swords, yet haki
Rokushiki is haki, and you know I’m right.
But nothing confirmed it or even retconned. All of the Rokushiki still relies on physical strength while haki is spiritual by nature.
Thats fine, doesn't change that your still taking Jinbes comment out of context. Jinbe suggested his armament is similar to tekkai as it serves as a transition to Jinbe questioning about how WsW able to be adept at all six techniques of a WG powerset, thus transitioning him into an exposition about his knowledge of WsW. It showcases that Jinbe is well versed in the capabilities of rokushiki to the point were he sarcastically throws in tekkai into a similar defensive technique.
Thats fine, doesn't change that your still taking Jinbes comment out of context. Jinbe suggested his armament is similar to tekkai as it serves as a transition to Jinbe questioning about how WsW able to be adept at all six techniques of a WG powerset, thus transitioning him into an exposition about his knowledge of WsW. It showcases that Jinbe is well versed in the capabilities of rokushiki to the point were he sarcastically throws in tekkai into a similar defensive technique.
So. I have to ask. How would Oda bring in Rokushiki = Haki into the manga if not like this? The only way you get "sarcastically" is if you decide that Rokushiki =/= Haki and work from there.
Rokushiki has never been purely physical. There's even a technique that ou learn by meditating in the woods.
But anyway, I'm at the point where arguments are pointless. 2 + 5 = 10. Yes, safe. Have a good day.
Actually, I know this will change no body's mind, but:
1: Oda said: Rokushiki is based on Haki -> Showed a picture of Tekkai.
2: Last Chapter, Jinbei says: Can I call "Tekkai" Haki.
3: This chapter. Who's Who says Tekkai, and we see see Haki energy and Haki SFX on him.
Your argument is that: a) Vivre Cards are unreliable, and b) that Jinbei was being sarcastic, and c) presumably, Who's Who was mocking Jinbei by saying Tekkai and then using Arammament? My question is: How would these characters clearly communicate that Tekkai is Haki to you, given that any reasonable person would be able to see this? What more would you want Oda to do to say this? Is it even possible given the thought-terminating cliches you prefer?
Bear in mind: "Haki is spiritual and Roksuhiki is physical" is nonsense. Haki training involved Rayleigh beating Luffy with a bat. Rokushiki training involved going to the mountains to meditate. We were never told that "Rokushiki is physical", only that it tempered your body as a result. Which haki training does as well.
I don't expect you to change your mind on this, mind you. I've seen someone claim that "If the official says it's haki then its haki", only to immediately ignore the official when it came out.
Oh, and one more thing, not sure if this juxtaposition of images should slam this into your head but...:
Rokushiki has never been purely physical. There's even a technique that ou learn by meditating in the woods.
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But anyway, I'm at the point where arguments are pointless. 2 + 5 = 10. Yes, safe. Have a good day.
Post automatically merged:
Actually, I know this will change no body's mind, but:
1: Oda said: Rokushiki is based on Haki -> Showed a picture of Tekkai.
2: Last Chapter, Jinbei says: Can I call "Tekkai" Haki.
3: This chapter. Who's Who says Tekkai, and we see see Haki energy and Haki SFX on him.
Your argument is that: a) Vivre Cards are unreliable, and b) that Jinbei was being sarcastic, and c) presumably, Who's Who was mocking Jinbei by saying Tekkai and then using Arammament? My question is: How would these characters clearly communicate that Tekkai is Haki to you, given that any reasonable person would be able to see this? What more would you want Oda to do to say this? Is it even possible given the thought-terminating cliches you prefer?
Bear in mind: "Haki is spiritual and Roksuhiki is physical" is nonsense. Haki training involved Rayleigh beating Luffy with a bat. Rokushiki training involved going to the mountains to meditate. We were never told that "Rokushiki is physical", only that it tempered your body as a result. Which haki training does as well.
I don't expect you to change your mind on this, mind you. I've seen someone claim that "If the official says it's haki then its haki", only to immediately ignore the official when it came out.
Oh, and one more thing, not sure if this juxtaposition of images should slam this into your head but...:
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So. I have to ask. How would Oda bring in Rokushiki = Haki into the manga if not like this? The only way you get "sarcastically" is if you decide that Rokushiki =/= Haki and work from there.
Rokushiki has never been purely physical. There's even a technique that ou learn by meditating in the woods.
But anyway, I'm at the point where arguments are pointless. 2 + 5 = 10. Yes, safe. Have a good day.
Actually, I know this will change no body's mind, but:
1: Oda said: Rokushiki is based on Haki -> Showed a picture of Tekkai.
2: Last Chapter, Jinbei says: Can I call "Tekkai" Haki.
3: This chapter. Who's Who says Tekkai, and we see see Haki energy and Haki SFX on him.
Your argument is that: a) Vivre Cards are unreliable, and b) that Jinbei was being sarcastic, and c) presumably, Who's Who was mocking Jinbei by saying Tekkai and then using Arammament? My question is: How would these characters clearly communicate that Tekkai is Haki to you, given that any reasonable person would be able to see this? What more would you want Oda to do to say this? Is it even possible given the thought-terminating cliches you prefer?
Bear in mind: "Haki is spiritual and Roksuhiki is physical" is nonsense. Haki training involved Rayleigh beating Luffy with a bat. Rokushiki training involved going to the mountains to meditate. We were never told that "Rokushiki is physical", only that it tempered your body as a result. Which haki training does as well.
I don't expect you to change your mind on this, mind you. I've seen someone claim that "If the official says it's haki then its haki", only to immediately ignore the official when it came out.
Oh, and one more thing, not sure if this juxtaposition of images should slam this into your head but...:
Rokushiki has never been purely physical. There's even a technique that ou learn by meditating in the woods.
Post automatically merged:
But anyway, I'm at the point where arguments are pointless. 2 + 5 = 10. Yes, safe. Have a good day.
Post automatically merged:
Actually, I know this will change no body's mind, but:
1: Oda said: Rokushiki is based on Haki -> Showed a picture of Tekkai.
2: Last Chapter, Jinbei says: Can I call "Tekkai" Haki.
3: This chapter. Who's Who says Tekkai, and we see see Haki energy and Haki SFX on him.
Your argument is that: a) Vivre Cards are unreliable, and b) that Jinbei was being sarcastic, and c) presumably, Who's Who was mocking Jinbei by saying Tekkai and then using Arammament? My question is: How would these characters clearly communicate that Tekkai is Haki to you, given that any reasonable person would be able to see this? What more would you want Oda to do to say this? Is it even possible given the thought-terminating cliches you prefer?
Bear in mind: "Haki is spiritual and Roksuhiki is physical" is nonsense. Haki training involved Rayleigh beating Luffy with a bat. Rokushiki training involved going to the mountains to meditate. We were never told that "Rokushiki is physical", only that it tempered your body as a result. Which haki training does as well.
I don't expect you to change your mind on this, mind you. I've seen someone claim that "If the official says it's haki then its haki", only to immediately ignore the official when it came out.
Oh, and one more thing, not sure if this juxtaposition of images should slam this into your head but...:
Would this shigan move be classified as tekkai following your logic despite him never stating iron body before going to shigan? Or would shigan fit in the category of armament as that too can be used offensively? Did the vivre cards ever state shigan being similar to armament? The reason why tekkai and rokushiki as a whole is stated to be a physical powerset is because the style is utilize the physical body and body parts themselves
tekkai- muscles
shigan- fingers
kami e- bodies flexibility
geppo- jumping power (feet)
rankyaku- kicking power (legs/shin)
soru- running speed (thighs)
They're not randomly picked as they all have a theming on the physical body itself. Something as versatile as armament haki being an advance form of tekkai wouldn't make much sense for the other 5 even shigan. Its too arbitrary by following that logic.
Taking another page out of context
Rayleigh was teaching Luffy OBSERVATION haki. He was doing this by teaching Luffy on how to sense the presence of his attacks and dodge NOT block accordingly. This page alone shows the stark contrast between rokushiki and haki as a powerset and why the latter is far more spiritual than the former. Like the only time OP brought in a literal power measuring system was to calculate rokushiki users doriki which effects their six styles proficiency which would only bring up more questions as to why the tekkai expert who can move his body while using tekkai is only the third strongest while the number one who is twice as powerful is an expert at pointing.
You incidentally countered your own point by bringing attention to zoro. The reason why it turned armament is the same reason why zoro almost always use armament in his attacks now. To increase the efficiency of his attack for zoro to prevent chipping and for WsW his tekkai. It shows a nice clear visual this time around where there were none before.
DING, DING, X
To be specific I meant through naming convention by calling his armament 'iron body' as armament haki is defensive by nature. That comment shows that Jinbe a martial artist who was a warlord is aware of the WG naming convention of the six styles before WsW even used the rest. Make sense given that very few know even know it. Even a handful of big moms children can use geppo alone so not even an emperor crew is aware of all six
This allows Jinbe to pinpoint how a pirate would have a WG powerset as I stated before. WsW is not mocking Jinbe by using tekkai then armament, he's just using tekkai and enhancing it through armament because he is a user of both, just how he is able to use shigan and apply armament to enhance its lethalness (or attempt to).
They don't need to because judging by the previous chapter comment and even this chapter proves they are able to communicate haki and tekkai are still separate things. Oda has already proved me right by me reading his actual work and comprehending WHY he wrote certain things the way they are and not take a single throw away line from a vivre card saying "tekkai is kinda similar to CoA" and immediately jump to "ODA RETCONNED TEKKAI. ITS NOW HAKI" without giving it a second thought and understanding neither concepts nor their intentions. Its not me preferring thought- terminating cliches or whatever that means, its just called having basic reading comprehension and not immediately jump to conclusions. I understand your logic but there is just too many holes for it to be valid.
Wasn't trying to devolve into an argument and it doesn't have to be. Its just a discussion on really flimsy evidence trying to prove something as a retcon but when you understand the comment and its meaning and the past story itself it quickly falls apart. Something similar happen from the exact same character and a line completely unrelated to WsW and that was said by Rob Lucci and people misinterpreted that.
Rob Lucci didn't have haki pre-skip. Either vivre card is lying, it is a mistranslation, or some sort of error.
Luffy literally punched Lucci's tekkai and the fist just bounced off. Tell me, if it was actually haki, shouldn't doing that have hurt Luffy's fist? Like it did for Luffy when he clashed with katakuri?
or maybe Oda is just inconsistent and we are probably putting more thought into this than Oda ever did.
If tekkai is haki related, it isn't simply haki, it is a haki technique. Basically, if tekkai is haki, it is full body CoA.
Luffy literally punched Lucci's tekkai and the fist just bounced off. Tell me, if it was actually haki, shouldn't doing that have hurt Luffy's fist? Like it did for Luffy when he clashed with katakuri?
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or maybe Oda is just inconsistent and we are probably putting more thought into this than Oda ever did.
If tekkai is haki related, it isn't simply haki, it is a haki technique. Basically, if tekkai is haki, it is full body CoA.