Controversial Rumble’s Revenge On Democracy: WorstGen ASOIAF 2v2 Fighting Tournament
- Thread starter Elder Lee Hung
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Is Daemon Blackfyre only barely stronger then Corbray, since he needed an hour to defeat him? 
Arthur gave the Smiling Knight a break mid-fight and allowed him to swich weapons. And it was said that the Smiling Knight was "bleeding from a dozen wounds" when that happened. To me that sounds like a pretty dominant victory.
And the Smiling Knight was obviously a skilled fighter himself given how Jaime was describing him.
Arthur did defeat Rhaegar at least once. Tourney at Lannisport in honor of Viserys's birth. And in the same tournament Rhaegar defeated Ser Barriston.
Arthur gave the Smiling Knight a break mid-fight and allowed him to swich weapons. And it was said that the Smiling Knight was "bleeding from a dozen wounds" when that happened. To me that sounds like a pretty dominant victory.
And the Smiling Knight was obviously a skilled fighter himself given how Jaime was describing him.
Arthur did defeat Rhaegar at least once. Tourney at Lannisport in honor of Viserys's birth. And in the same tournament Rhaegar defeated Ser Barriston.
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Is Daemon Blackfyre only barely stronger then Corbay, since he needed an hour to defeat him?
Besides, you’re ignoring the statement that Daemon was > the Dragon Knight. Lol
I’m sure they both defeated each other many times. And that’s kind of my point, Arthur as a swordsman was >~ Rhaegar. Daemon was > Aemon the Dragon Knight if we go purely by portrayal, and the hype of his duel with Corbray is pretty much regarded as the greatest in history.
You also have to consider that a lot of the Targaryen characters like Blackfyre were not purely written by Martin but also his fans. So whatever Martin’s opinion of Dayne is isn’t necessarily relevant to a lot of these Targaryen writers that he didn’t write entirely by himself. They sort of “transcend” Martin’s opinions as other writers helped Martin create them as well.
If I remember it right it was said by Eustace Osgray who was a massive Daemon fanboy and Blackfyre supporter, so I'm not sure how objective he is. Martin's statements about Aemon being the best swordsman of his era holds much more weight.
Just because Daemon and Corbray had a fantastic flamboyant duel with valyrian steel swords doesn't mean they are the greatest fighters in history. Thats not how it works.
Sure, as long as those are in the official sources that are aproved by Martin then I have no problem in using them. It's just that Martin is the highest tier of canon.
Just because Daemon and Corbray had a fantastic flamboyant duel with valyrian steel swords doesn't mean they are the greatest fighters in history. Thats not how it works.
Sure, as long as those are in the official sources that are aproved by Martin then I have no problem in using them. It's just that Martin is the highest tier of canon.
Aemon died before Daemon’s prime. So Aemon being the best swordsman of his era and Daemon being above Aemon is not contradictory.
What does that mean lol? You could say the same about any characters who had some famous or legendary duel. Why are you discrediting Daemon’s duel and Daemon’s alone? Either you should doubt the validity and hype around all duels or you should doubt none of them.
Daemon’s and Gwayne’s dual happened in the middle of a war with tens of thousands of witnesses. Their battle was completely legendary and witnessed by thousands. Jaime Lannister himself recalled Gwayne’s legendary duel as it was recorded in the White Book. This also happened right after Daemon had shattered the Arryn vanguard. This is the telltale sign of an absolutely incredible warrior, Martin/the writers hyped him hard as fuck in the one battle he actually fought in.
Daemon has so much shit painting him as an incredible warrior that discounting all of it just comes off as desperate.
Daemon was knighted at 12 years old. Okay, I’ll grant you that is absolutely not a credible source of hype since he was knighted by his own shithead father for purely political purposes.
Eustass Osgray said that Damon had no equal with Blackfyre. In fact Osgray specifically said that Ulric Dayne wielding Dawn was no match for Daemon. He also said he would put Daemon above Aemon the Dragon Knight. He also said Daemon was the ASIOAF God of War when he was wielding Blackfyre. Political grandstanding? Maybe, but Eustace made these statements YEARS after Daemon’s death when the Blackfyres had already been defeated and his political aims were ashes. So why would he still feel the need to defend Daemon like this? To defend his own political standing? Maybe.
So we have to micro analyze each of Daemon’s feats in order to discredit all of them. Which just seems like an unfair level of scrutiny imo when there’s just as much reason to believe Daemon’s hype when there is for most other top tier warriors.
Half of Arthur Dayne’s in canon hype comes from Jaime. Is that reliable? Isn’t Jaime a Dayne fanboy? Why is the Dayne fanboy’s opinion reliable but the Daemon fanboy’s opinion is not? Jaime isn’t exactly the smartest guy, in canon he is dyslexic and Tywin was specifically disappointed with Jaime because he lacked wits. But we are not going to question Jaime’s judgment or perspective?
Ned also said Arthur was the greatest knight he had ever seen. Great. Daemon died decades before Ned was even born lol.
And nothing Martin says discredits Daemon in anyway. Martin hyped Arthur because he created and wrote that character. Daemon and the Targaryens in general were not written by him alone, just overseen and later given his blessing. So he’s naturally not going to be as familiar with those characters, and perhaps even a bit biased towards the characters he created when it comes to talking about meaningless stuff like this lol. Hell Daemon may not even have been fully fleshed out when Martin talked about Dayne, I don’t know the timeline here.
Anyway. If Martin said Dayne > Daemon then that’s fine but he never did.
What does that mean lol? You could say the same about any characters who had some famous or legendary duel. Why are you discrediting Daemon’s duel and Daemon’s alone? Either you should doubt the validity and hype around all duels or you should doubt none of them.
Daemon’s and Gwayne’s dual happened in the middle of a war with tens of thousands of witnesses. Their battle was completely legendary and witnessed by thousands. Jaime Lannister himself recalled Gwayne’s legendary duel as it was recorded in the White Book. This also happened right after Daemon had shattered the Arryn vanguard. This is the telltale sign of an absolutely incredible warrior, Martin/the writers hyped him hard as fuck in the one battle he actually fought in.
Daemon has so much shit painting him as an incredible warrior that discounting all of it just comes off as desperate.
Daemon was knighted at 12 years old. Okay, I’ll grant you that is absolutely not a credible source of hype since he was knighted by his own shithead father for purely political purposes.
Eustass Osgray said that Damon had no equal with Blackfyre. In fact Osgray specifically said that Ulric Dayne wielding Dawn was no match for Daemon. He also said he would put Daemon above Aemon the Dragon Knight. He also said Daemon was the ASIOAF God of War when he was wielding Blackfyre. Political grandstanding? Maybe, but Eustace made these statements YEARS after Daemon’s death when the Blackfyres had already been defeated and his political aims were ashes. So why would he still feel the need to defend Daemon like this? To defend his own political standing? Maybe.
So we have to micro analyze each of Daemon’s feats in order to discredit all of them. Which just seems like an unfair level of scrutiny imo when there’s just as much reason to believe Daemon’s hype when there is for most other top tier warriors.
Half of Arthur Dayne’s in canon hype comes from Jaime. Is that reliable? Isn’t Jaime a Dayne fanboy? Why is the Dayne fanboy’s opinion reliable but the Daemon fanboy’s opinion is not? Jaime isn’t exactly the smartest guy, in canon he is dyslexic and Tywin was specifically disappointed with Jaime because he lacked wits. But we are not going to question Jaime’s judgment or perspective?
Ned also said Arthur was the greatest knight he had ever seen. Great. Daemon died decades before Ned was even born lol.
And nothing Martin says discredits Daemon in anyway. Martin hyped Arthur because he created and wrote that character. Daemon and the Targaryens in general were not written by him alone, just overseen and later given his blessing. So he’s naturally not going to be as familiar with those characters, and perhaps even a bit biased towards the characters he created when it comes to talking about meaningless stuff like this lol. Hell Daemon may not even have been fully fleshed out when Martin talked about Dayne, I don’t know the timeline here.
Anyway. If Martin said Dayne > Daemon then that’s fine but he never did.
This is so far the toughest one.
I have nk idea what dawn is made up of , Could be possiblity of it being magically enchanted or something but let that be.
Apart from that , As series of the event took place in his era , of course him , barristan and jamie are wanked to skies.
But I would love to know about their competitions to begin with. Daemon wasn't fighting in tournaments he on battlefield all the time. With Valyrian steel in his hands , he's probably the only character to fight an another Valyrian steel guy for nearly an hour, insane endurance , speed , combat prowess.
I won't be surprised if daemon was already at arthur dayne level at his prime.
I'll incline towards Daemon Blackfyre.
Arthur dayne to be honest was never called the best of his era , he was called one of the best among , and Barristan , Jamie , Gerald also shared this title.
The fact He was equal to Barristan in skill and everything and will win only due to Dawn.
I'll give this to daemon , as he was the undisputed no.1 of his time.
I have nk idea what dawn is made up of , Could be possiblity of it being magically enchanted or something but let that be.
Apart from that , As series of the event took place in his era , of course him , barristan and jamie are wanked to skies.
But I would love to know about their competitions to begin with. Daemon wasn't fighting in tournaments he on battlefield all the time. With Valyrian steel in his hands , he's probably the only character to fight an another Valyrian steel guy for nearly an hour, insane endurance , speed , combat prowess.
I won't be surprised if daemon was already at arthur dayne level at his prime.
I'll incline towards Daemon Blackfyre.
Arthur dayne to be honest was never called the best of his era , he was called one of the best among , and Barristan , Jamie , Gerald also shared this title.
The fact He was equal to Barristan in skill and everything and will win only due to Dawn.
I'll give this to daemon , as he was the undisputed no.1 of his time.
Sorry man but this took me out lmao
"One of Daemon’s loyalists said he was “the warrior himself” when wielding Blackfyre (the warrior is the ASOIAF God of War), and also stated that Daemon was a superior warrior to Aemon the Dragon Knight, who lived in the same era as Daemon so this is a pretty reliable quote"
If anything, Dayne being the most recent one of them makes his hype more believable since it didn't go through a hundred years of fluff and smallfolk hearsay.
"One of Daemon’s loyalists said he was “the warrior himself” when wielding Blackfyre (the warrior is the ASOIAF God of War), and also stated that Daemon was a superior warrior to Aemon the Dragon Knight, who lived in the same era as Daemon so this is a pretty reliable quote"
If anything, Dayne being the most recent one of them makes his hype more believable since it didn't go through a hundred years of fluff and smallfolk hearsay.
he was the best of his time with Dawn
Without he was equal to Barristan but with Dawn in hand like here he was the n1
Martin comment about Barristan/Arthur isn’t dehype for Arthur at all
Obvuously someone is weaker without his best sword
Make this fight and remove Dark sister or Blackfyre and the fight is quite different.
Daemon duel was also hyped because both players had Valyrian steel
And people forget how hard boil and good Barristan was
the man had like dozen of insane feats, battles, rescues etc even at old age
And we know for sure that Arthur would win against that top tier fighter
Without he was equal to Barristan but with Dawn in hand like here he was the n1
Martin comment about Barristan/Arthur isn’t dehype for Arthur at all
Obvuously someone is weaker without his best sword
Make this fight and remove Dark sister or Blackfyre and the fight is quite different.
Daemon duel was also hyped because both players had Valyrian steel
And people forget how hard boil and good Barristan was
the man had like dozen of insane feats, battles, rescues etc even at old age
And we know for sure that Arthur would win against that top tier fighter
Alright, the matchup is here:
Dayne
> Deadliest Kingsguard of Aerys Targaryen's legendary group.
> Equal to Barristan, one of the greatest swordsmen in the lore's history...without Dawn. With Dawn, he has the outright advantage even over him.
> Defeated the Smiling Knight, considered "The Mountain of his time" in a pretty clear cut fashion. At one point even allowed him to change swords and the Smiling Knight was already bleeding from a dozen of wounds.
> Insert Jaime wank: "The sword of the Morning, who could have slain all of you with his left hand, while he was taking a piss on the right."
> Died in a 3v7 and there might have been some fuckery there on Reed's part.
> First pick by Martin if it was a trial by combact.
So, the guy's portrayal is absurd. Rhaegar defeated him in a joust but that doesn't mean much, Jorah Mormont also defeated Jaime Lannister in joust but would get opened from balls to brain if they fought. An actual 1v1 to the death is a different thing. Rhaegar was a scholar who only later decided to become a fighter because he read some prophecy in the books. He's not in the league of Dayne and got slain by Bobby B.
Daemon Blackfyre
> In his youth, many thought he would become another Dragonknight.
> He mastered all weapons of war, Eustace Osgrey considered him as good as any knight he had ever seen with those...but with Blackfyre he called Daemon "The Warrior himself" and considered him superior to both Ulrick Dayne with Dawn (one of the finest of his time) and the Dragonknight with Dark Sister.
> Had a one hour duel with Gwayne Corbray, a member of the Kingsguard who held a Valyrian sword. Some described it as "the greatest duel ever".
> Died to arrows.
The counterarguments against Daemon come from two things:
- "Eustace Osgrey was biased for him and might have exaggerated his abilities." It's not impossible, I guess. But Eustace admired great warriors. Yes, he followed the Blackfyre in the rebellion, but it's perfectly possible that he just saw things that way when it came to Daemon's ability and would have thought the same one way or the other. Leaving Eustace aside, like I had written above many believed that in his youth Daemon would have become another Dragonknight.
- His one hour long duel against Corbray. On here, again it depends if you buy into Daemon's hype and what you think of Corbray. If one believes Daemon was really that good, no exaggeration, then Corbray himself with his Valyrian blade is one the absolute best fighters of the lore. Someone who doesn't buy into Daemon's hype as much or Corbray's might want to argue that, perhaps, someone like Arthur Dayne would have made a shorter work of him. But I doubt Martin wanted us to see that Daemon/Corbray duel as an anti feat for Daemon lol. It's certainly possible that Corbray himself was just that good.
Overall, my position is that Daemon Blackfyre ~ Arthur Dayne ~ Dragonknight. All being true death matches.
Dayne is probably going to win this matchup by voting.
Thus today, I'll bet on Daemon Blackfyre, the Black Dragon
Dayne
> Deadliest Kingsguard of Aerys Targaryen's legendary group.
> Equal to Barristan, one of the greatest swordsmen in the lore's history...without Dawn. With Dawn, he has the outright advantage even over him.
> Defeated the Smiling Knight, considered "The Mountain of his time" in a pretty clear cut fashion. At one point even allowed him to change swords and the Smiling Knight was already bleeding from a dozen of wounds.
> Insert Jaime wank: "The sword of the Morning, who could have slain all of you with his left hand, while he was taking a piss on the right."
> Died in a 3v7 and there might have been some fuckery there on Reed's part.
> First pick by Martin if it was a trial by combact.
So, the guy's portrayal is absurd. Rhaegar defeated him in a joust but that doesn't mean much, Jorah Mormont also defeated Jaime Lannister in joust but would get opened from balls to brain if they fought. An actual 1v1 to the death is a different thing. Rhaegar was a scholar who only later decided to become a fighter because he read some prophecy in the books. He's not in the league of Dayne and got slain by Bobby B.
Daemon Blackfyre
> In his youth, many thought he would become another Dragonknight.
> He mastered all weapons of war, Eustace Osgrey considered him as good as any knight he had ever seen with those...but with Blackfyre he called Daemon "The Warrior himself" and considered him superior to both Ulrick Dayne with Dawn (one of the finest of his time) and the Dragonknight with Dark Sister.
> Had a one hour duel with Gwayne Corbray, a member of the Kingsguard who held a Valyrian sword. Some described it as "the greatest duel ever".
> Died to arrows.
The counterarguments against Daemon come from two things:
- "Eustace Osgrey was biased for him and might have exaggerated his abilities." It's not impossible, I guess. But Eustace admired great warriors. Yes, he followed the Blackfyre in the rebellion, but it's perfectly possible that he just saw things that way when it came to Daemon's ability and would have thought the same one way or the other. Leaving Eustace aside, like I had written above many believed that in his youth Daemon would have become another Dragonknight.
- His one hour long duel against Corbray. On here, again it depends if you buy into Daemon's hype and what you think of Corbray. If one believes Daemon was really that good, no exaggeration, then Corbray himself with his Valyrian blade is one the absolute best fighters of the lore. Someone who doesn't buy into Daemon's hype as much or Corbray's might want to argue that, perhaps, someone like Arthur Dayne would have made a shorter work of him. But I doubt Martin wanted us to see that Daemon/Corbray duel as an anti feat for Daemon lol. It's certainly possible that Corbray himself was just that good.
Overall, my position is that Daemon Blackfyre ~ Arthur Dayne ~ Dragonknight. All being true death matches.
Dayne is probably going to win this matchup by voting.
Thus today, I'll bet on Daemon Blackfyre, the Black Dragon
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With Blackfyre (and its a character quote not the author himself so a bit less strong)
With ax or lance or flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but with the sword he was the Warriorhimself. When Prince Daemon had Blackfyre in hand, there was not a man equal him ... not Ulrick Dayne with Dawn, no, nor even the Dragonknight with Dark Sister.
—Eustace Osgrey, to Duncan the Tall
With ax or lance or flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but with the sword he was the Warriorhimself. When Prince Daemon had Blackfyre in hand, there was not a man equal him ... not Ulrick Dayne with Dawn, no, nor even the Dragonknight with Dark Sister.
—Eustace Osgrey, to Duncan the Tall
SO we are talking about one of the best in each of the their era.
Both of them with their weapons.
Also Daemon has experience fighting against other Valyrian swords.
what about Arthur?
I'm pretty sure only DAWN was around at that time , Tarly's had one as showpiece and Stark had one.
so who did arthur fought who had such steel? Barristan didn't
Both of them with their weapons.
Also Daemon has experience fighting against other Valyrian swords.
what about Arthur?
I'm pretty sure only DAWN was around at that time , Tarly's had one as showpiece and Stark had one.
so who did arthur fought who had such steel? Barristan didn't