Controversial Selling Mario Kart for $80 sets such a dangerous precedent for the future (It happened)
- Thread starter Mr. Reloaded
- Start date
Yoshi is definetly peak though @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier
If a gta isn't san andreas then I'm not interested, horizon looks better in my opinion but I haven't played it yet
Man 2004 had both san andreas and half life 2
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If a gta isn't san andreas then I'm not interested, horizon looks better in my opinion but I haven't played it yet
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Man 2004 had both san andreas and half life 2
They won't change it. I just hope they won't double down and make the next 3D title even more ridiculous with gimmicks and messing around with the sandbox elements. Echoes of Wisdom was a good start and I believe Nintendo might keep this balance because they saw how fans favor dungeons and some traditional elements in older Zelda titles.
Visiting dungeons in any order won't ever be changed and I don't think it's necessary to keep the order linear BUUUUT: It wouldn't be bad to implement 2 - 3 story parts into the game where you collectively finish dungeons or checkpoints in any order but when you progress through the story and reach the next part, that's when the other dungeons are available to you again.
Once again, even in that part, Echoes of Wisdom did exactly that! 3 dungeons in the first part, 4th dungeon in second, 3 remaining in the 3rd part. I don't regret when I bought EoW, this game turned out to be one of the best 2D titles imo. Maybe TotK would have a better story and dungeon structure if they did it like that: 3 dungeons at the beginning to obtain the power for the Master Sword (these dungeons would have Divine Beast gameplay design, traditional Zelda dungeon designs), 2nd part would be the 4 elementary themed temples which are heavily designed by the traditional dungeon models and last part would be the Spirit Temple when the whole area is basically the dungeon. Maybe it wouldn't feel like a large extended BotW DLC story if they kept it that way.
So I am not against the changes or that they are going to keep this formular. What I am against it if they're justifying this new formular to copy and paste bad elements from previous titles - we already have more than enough open world Ubisoft games and I really don't want to see future Zelda games turning into something like that.
When it comes to Zelda, I can always write huge essays because ultimately, I'm a far bigger Zelda fan than I am a One Piece fan. When it comes to games, I grew up with the Zelda titles like OOT, MM, ALttP, Zelda 1, Zelda 2, Oracle of Series, Link's Awakening and finally, the Gamecube titles like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. There is just so much I can describe about this franchise - especially when it comes to the dungeons and lore of the series. I'm criticising the new Zelda games but I also invested a lot of time into these and I also like a lot of things in the new games. TotK is the only game where I was truly disappointed.
Yep, the fuse mechanic is good on paper but at the end, you're mostly extending your-already-weak-af non durable weapons a bit more - and mostly, most fusions worked like this: You fuse a random object to your weapon and is it attached there, after few hits, this random object gets destroyed and your weapon weakens again. So it did more harm to the weapon durability than fixing it completely. What am I playing, Dying Light or Zelda???
That's the kind of things which genuinely pissed me off whenever I played BotW and especially TotK. I don't mind using the same weapons for at least +10h but I do mind if I use this particular weapon on 2 - 3 enemies, then it gets destroyed and I'm forced to obtain available weapons on the ground or from enemies. It's shit. Also, this weapon durability system gets ridiculously imbalanced late-game when you encounter silver colored enemies with at least 720 up to 1300 HP when your best weapons deal approximately 50 - 70 damage per hit, unless you're running around with some OP set when you deal 200 - 300 damage per hit. Either way, your weapons last against two of these enemies AT BEST - mostly, you encounter enemy camps, so you have to fight several enemies either way or you try to get them by stealth kills but come on, brute forcing your way is always prefered in a Zelda game, at least I can say that for me.
Okami? I never played it but I played Darksiders 1 and 2 which took inspiring elements from Zelda's maze like, puzzle boxed dungeon design when you often had to solve smaller puzzles to solve the bigger one in that particular large room which was rather common in 3D Zelda games. It also has keys and locked doors to prevent you from progressing further unless you solve certain puzzles to obtain the key. Is it repetitive? Absolutely NOT! At least when it comes to Zelda games because with this formular, you can implement so so so many ideas how puzzles are connected to the whole dungeon structure as a whole.
There is some criticism about late Zelda games using items as an extended key to progress further in dungeons but... I don't see the issue in these? I understand if their criticism is based on "I don't like items being primarily used in dungeons then they never have a relevance again in the game" and I agree with that. However, when it comes to using items to progress further in dungeons - that's classic Metroidvania progression and I don't see people making a fuss over it when you need a certain item to unlock new ways in the map. The difference is that items were also used to make you travel unavailable places which was the case in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. It declined in Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and it started in Skyward Sword again. So the items were replaced by universal items being obtained at the beginning of the story but yet again, I don't see why newer items cannot be obtained in these dungeons without destroying your overworld exploration. In fact, they can be used to make exploration even easier. Adding items in dungeons would not contradict the open air formular.
However, TotK found a way to introduce item-like elements by the sage abilities but most of them are not necessary at all in their respective dungeons aside of activating the terminals. Great. Simon's ability is completely useless btw.
It's also rather linear but imo that's absolutely necessary. You cannot design a maze-like dungeon and expect it to work well when the player has all the freedom to choose whatever puzzle the player wants. That's why people refer to BotW/TotK dungeons as "3 or 4 shrines combined in one" because that's how disconnected they see the puzzles in the dungeon.
Have you seen the Water Temple? That's basically the whole guide of the Water Temple in TotK:
You can count the amount of puzzles by your fingers and there's virtually NO struggle to understand the dungeon layout nor do you struggle to reach your destination. This is such a shame because this is the first water dungeon with gravity elements and it's such a halfassed mess.
Now look at the guide of the two others:
Lakebed Temple:
Shortest video is 30 minutes.
Ancient Cistern:
Bosses:
Water Temple boss, Mucktorok:
Morpheel:
Kolloktos:
Levels.
So the problem isn't the formular itself, it's their lack of creativity when it comes to the main dungeons. I don't say anything to the Lightning Temple but both the Wind and the Fire Temple suffer from the same issues: cheese factor which allows you to skip entire puzzles. The enjoyment of playing these dungeons gradually declines when it comes to these things.
I also agree to everything else you said but I still haven't given up consoles and their exclusive titles, at least when it comes to Nintendo. It's really a shame they grew greedy enough to give 80$ game prices...
Visiting dungeons in any order won't ever be changed and I don't think it's necessary to keep the order linear BUUUUT: It wouldn't be bad to implement 2 - 3 story parts into the game where you collectively finish dungeons or checkpoints in any order but when you progress through the story and reach the next part, that's when the other dungeons are available to you again.
Once again, even in that part, Echoes of Wisdom did exactly that! 3 dungeons in the first part, 4th dungeon in second, 3 remaining in the 3rd part. I don't regret when I bought EoW, this game turned out to be one of the best 2D titles imo. Maybe TotK would have a better story and dungeon structure if they did it like that: 3 dungeons at the beginning to obtain the power for the Master Sword (these dungeons would have Divine Beast gameplay design, traditional Zelda dungeon designs), 2nd part would be the 4 elementary themed temples which are heavily designed by the traditional dungeon models and last part would be the Spirit Temple when the whole area is basically the dungeon. Maybe it wouldn't feel like a large extended BotW DLC story if they kept it that way.
So I am not against the changes or that they are going to keep this formular. What I am against it if they're justifying this new formular to copy and paste bad elements from previous titles - we already have more than enough open world Ubisoft games and I really don't want to see future Zelda games turning into something like that.
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When it comes to Zelda, I can always write huge essays because ultimately, I'm a far bigger Zelda fan than I am a One Piece fan. When it comes to games, I grew up with the Zelda titles like OOT, MM, ALttP, Zelda 1, Zelda 2, Oracle of Series, Link's Awakening and finally, the Gamecube titles like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. There is just so much I can describe about this franchise - especially when it comes to the dungeons and lore of the series. I'm criticising the new Zelda games but I also invested a lot of time into these and I also like a lot of things in the new games. TotK is the only game where I was truly disappointed.
Yep, the fuse mechanic is good on paper but at the end, you're mostly extending your-already-weak-af non durable weapons a bit more - and mostly, most fusions worked like this: You fuse a random object to your weapon and is it attached there, after few hits, this random object gets destroyed and your weapon weakens again. So it did more harm to the weapon durability than fixing it completely. What am I playing, Dying Light or Zelda???
That's the kind of things which genuinely pissed me off whenever I played BotW and especially TotK. I don't mind using the same weapons for at least +10h but I do mind if I use this particular weapon on 2 - 3 enemies, then it gets destroyed and I'm forced to obtain available weapons on the ground or from enemies. It's shit. Also, this weapon durability system gets ridiculously imbalanced late-game when you encounter silver colored enemies with at least 720 up to 1300 HP when your best weapons deal approximately 50 - 70 damage per hit, unless you're running around with some OP set when you deal 200 - 300 damage per hit. Either way, your weapons last against two of these enemies AT BEST - mostly, you encounter enemy camps, so you have to fight several enemies either way or you try to get them by stealth kills but come on, brute forcing your way is always prefered in a Zelda game, at least I can say that for me.
Okami? I never played it but I played Darksiders 1 and 2 which took inspiring elements from Zelda's maze like, puzzle boxed dungeon design when you often had to solve smaller puzzles to solve the bigger one in that particular large room which was rather common in 3D Zelda games. It also has keys and locked doors to prevent you from progressing further unless you solve certain puzzles to obtain the key. Is it repetitive? Absolutely NOT! At least when it comes to Zelda games because with this formular, you can implement so so so many ideas how puzzles are connected to the whole dungeon structure as a whole.
There is some criticism about late Zelda games using items as an extended key to progress further in dungeons but... I don't see the issue in these? I understand if their criticism is based on "I don't like items being primarily used in dungeons then they never have a relevance again in the game" and I agree with that. However, when it comes to using items to progress further in dungeons - that's classic Metroidvania progression and I don't see people making a fuss over it when you need a certain item to unlock new ways in the map. The difference is that items were also used to make you travel unavailable places which was the case in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. It declined in Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and it started in Skyward Sword again. So the items were replaced by universal items being obtained at the beginning of the story but yet again, I don't see why newer items cannot be obtained in these dungeons without destroying your overworld exploration. In fact, they can be used to make exploration even easier. Adding items in dungeons would not contradict the open air formular.
However, TotK found a way to introduce item-like elements by the sage abilities but most of them are not necessary at all in their respective dungeons aside of activating the terminals. Great. Simon's ability is completely useless btw.
It's also rather linear but imo that's absolutely necessary. You cannot design a maze-like dungeon and expect it to work well when the player has all the freedom to choose whatever puzzle the player wants. That's why people refer to BotW/TotK dungeons as "3 or 4 shrines combined in one" because that's how disconnected they see the puzzles in the dungeon.
Have you seen the Water Temple? That's basically the whole guide of the Water Temple in TotK:
You can count the amount of puzzles by your fingers and there's virtually NO struggle to understand the dungeon layout nor do you struggle to reach your destination. This is such a shame because this is the first water dungeon with gravity elements and it's such a halfassed mess.
Now look at the guide of the two others:
Lakebed Temple:
Shortest video is 30 minutes.
Ancient Cistern:
Bosses:
Water Temple boss, Mucktorok:
Morpheel:
Kolloktos:
Levels.
So the problem isn't the formular itself, it's their lack of creativity when it comes to the main dungeons. I don't say anything to the Lightning Temple but both the Wind and the Fire Temple suffer from the same issues: cheese factor which allows you to skip entire puzzles. The enjoyment of playing these dungeons gradually declines when it comes to these things.
I also agree to everything else you said but I still haven't given up consoles and their exclusive titles, at least when it comes to Nintendo. It's really a shame they grew greedy enough to give 80$ game prices...
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