Powers & Abilities So does everyone agree Enma not a power up now.

[Trafalgar_D_Law]

- Gravity chamber was the only way Vegeta could attain super sayain during that time in the allowed time period.
- Ankle weights were the only way Rock Lee could increase his speed in the allowed time period.
- Seastone was the only thing there for Luffy that would increase his physical prowess in the allowed time period.
- Lifting weights was the only there for Zoro that would increase his physical prowess in the allowed time period.

So gravity chamber, ankle weights, seastone, lifting weights all = powerups.

Lets stuck to the subject, to much to break down why those aren't similar .

Why am I separating them? I'm not separating them, they already are separate.

No they aren't? there both literally directly linked.... Zoro improvements are a direct cause of the blade. Ur doing way to much to wiggle around that, an its not working imo.

"Enma also automatically uses the properties of flow haki", So how does this boost zoro? Zoro's been capable of putting Haki into his swords for a while. Has it been shown that Zoro struggles with putting Haki into his weapons, something even fodder Kuja pirates can do? Nope. You're telling me an ability that random fodders at Amazon lilly are capable of is a boost to Zoro?

Completely irrelevant, its a specific ability the blade gives. Similar to sanji invisibility. An its making it easier to use then shusui .

"Allows you to use them with ranged attacks", If a swordsman can't do ranged attacks they can't use that part of it. And if a swordsman is strong enough to wield Enma..then that means they already are capable of using Haki with ranged attacks, otherwise Enma would just kill the wielder due to Haki drain.

What? the blade itself already doing the haki gathering for u. if u have the physical strength to use range slashes. U could basically use flow haki without actually knowing how to. Bolds headcanon the haki draining has nothing to do with that part.

So Enma acting as a leech to Zoro's haki = powerup? I'm sorry but I fail to understand this.

No, it being a unique way to literally empower zoro haki is. An it only leeches if ur not powerful enough. Zoro was able to negate that before the training.

Enma made Zoro stronger than Shusui? Sorry but that's simply not the reality. Zoro is making haki control better in order to control Enma, that is not Enma making Zoro's haki control better.

Im sorry but it is.... current zoro stronger then shusui zoro. An if given the same training timeframe for both, zoro with enma always comes out stronger. If its not Enma what is it? what even the actual point of the blade? Ur literally arguing zoro got weaker, as if that makes an sense.

Shusui didn't require mastery in order to form stronger attacks than Yabashuri. That was a powerup of a sword.
Enma requires mastery over it in order for Zoro to be an effective of a fighter that he is with Shusui. That's not a powerup of a sword.

Different blade result in different advantages . Mastering something or being given a free be, arent factors in determining a PU.

As for which is the superior sword, there's not much to do with opinion. Both are in the same classification in terms of sword quality/material. We then find out a person can take the sword to another level by making it a black blade, Shusui is already a black blade.. thus it's a superior sword than Enma.

I disagree for reasons already stated.

PS: Enma isn't the only way Zoro could've gotten stronger in Haki. Oda could've simply had Zoro & Luffy fight each other in order to improve their Haki, the fight focusing on each of them focusing on improving the specific aspect of Haki or have Zoro do a special training like Luffy to do it. Enma is simply one of the ways that Oda decided to use to make Zoro improve his Haki.

baseless

 

[Xione]

Your... not remembering DBZ correctly

Ah I'm clearly not remembering the time when Vegeta after seeing Goku & Trunks transform into super sayain went to Bulma's dad to ask him to make an upgraded version of the gravity chamber:

Spoiler

Clearly not remembering correctly Vegeta training in it to become Super sayain:

Spoiler

I'm for sure not remembering clearly Vegeta talking about the training he put into surpass Goku:

Spoiler

 

[Xione]

baseless

Baseless?

Did Rayleigh have Enma to improve his Haki into top tier level?
Did Roger have Enma?
Did Mihawk have Enma?
Did Zoro have Enma to improve his Haki over timeskip?

Did Luffy improve his Haki by attaining special gloves?

The requirement of Haki improvement is pushing your haki to it's limits. Are you claiming Zoro can't do that while fighting Luffy, even though he did so fighting Dracule? Is Zoro going to stop improving his CoA after he masters Enma?

You're claiming Enma is the only way for Zoro to improve his Haki, yet there's plenty of other available ways that Oda could've taken him had he wanted.

 

[Xione]

No they aren't? there both literally directly linked.... Zoro improvements are a direct cause of the blade. Ur doing way to much to wiggle around that, an its not working imo.
Completely irrelevant, its a specific ability the blade gives. Similar to sanji invisibility. An its making it easier to use then shusui .
What? the blade itself already doing the haki gathering for u. if u have the physical strength to use range slashes. U could basically use flow haki without actually knowing how to. Bolds headcanon the haki draining has nothing to do with that part.

No, it being a unique way to literally empower zoro haki is. An it only leeches if ur not powerful enough. Zoro was able to negate that before the training.
Im sorry but it is.... current zoro stronger then shusui zoro. An if given the same training timeframe for both, zoro with enma always comes out stronger. If its not Enma what is it? what even the actual point of the blade? Ur literally arguing zoro got weaker, as if that makes an sense.
Different blade result in different advantages . Mastering something or being given a free be, arent factors in determining a PU.
I disagree for reasons already stated.

baseless

Zoro's improvements are a direct cause of a the training, not the blade. Zoro can train with or without Enma, only thing that changes is the way he trains. I'm not doing any wiggling here, simply pointing out the difference between the two, as there was already a sword upgrade done in the series.. this simply isn't one.

The blade doesn't give Zoro any ability. Sanji can't go invisible without the raid suit. Zoro can put Haki into his swords without Enma.
"Making it easier to use than Shusui" this is plain out ignoring the reality, Shusui doesn't make his arms into twigs after a swing, Shusui allows him to put as much as power as he wants.. Enma forces him to use more power than he wants. So Enma actually makes it harder for Zoro to attack.

Ranged attacks aren't based on simply having physical strength, they're an actual technique one must learn to do.


I'm arguing Zoro got weaker, even though I said Zoro will have stronger Haki? That doesn't make any sense. I said Zoro post-Enma training will produce better if not the same results with Shusui as he would with a mastered Enma. Why? Because Shusui is a better quality sword, that is something you cannot argue against even if you hold different opinion.

What's the point of the blade? Uh.. Zoro needs a 3rd blade for his fighting style.. that's the point of the blade.. it's a substitute to Shusui, whether it's permanent or temporary we'll find out.


"Mastering something" and being given a free be are huge factors in determining a PU, dependent on what's being mastered here. If you're mastering how to lift 300 pound barbell & plates, the barbell and plates won't be the powerup, your physical strength that increased as a result would be the powerup. However, if you're mastering something like a Devil fruit that gives you stronger abilities then that would be a powerup in mastering something. So far Enma doesn't give Zoro any special abilities that he already doesn't have, when it does you can claim it's a powerup.

Zoro isn't learning how to use a sword properly here, he's learning how to contain the sword's negative effects (which is the opposite of a powerup), in learning how to contain that negative effect he'll receive a powerup in his haki.

 

[ardym]

we all call Luffy's FS and Ryuo power ups though they both came from training and pushing himself in fights.
so no matter how you look it Enma and the RS are both power ups since they help Sanji and Zoro master their abilities.

 

[Trafalgar_D_Law]

Baseless?

Did Rayleigh have Enma to improve his Haki into top tier level?
Did Roger have Enma?
Did Mihawk have Enma?

None of them are zoro.

Did Zoro have Enma to improve his Haki over timeskip?

No, which is why hes currently training with the blade to reach a new height.

Did Luffy improve his Haki by attaining special gloves?

No

The requirement of Haki improvement is pushing your haki to it's limits. Are you claiming Zoro can't do that while fighting Luffy, even though he did so fighting Dracule?

The fact oda doesn't do this, an specifically trades out one of zoro swords for Enma. directly implies it the more affective method...

Is Zoro going to stop improving his CoA after he masters Enma?

No but then that has nothing to do with the gain enma brings.

You're claiming Enma is the only way for Zoro to improve his Haki, yet there's plenty of other available ways that Oda could've taken him had he wanted.

Thing is he didn't take them. He specifically brings enma into the picture.

 

[Vlad D. Impaler]

How?

Bcoz better sword means more DC. Before acquiring Enma, Zoro believed that Shusui is an extremely important necessity for him in order to attain victory in his crew's upcoming decisive battle against Kaido and the Beast Pirates.

Shusui is designed to increase both the damage potential and destructive power of the user to a tremendous extent, first demonstrated when Zoro used Shusui against Oars, after using Hyaku Hachi Pound Ho, it created a larger flying slash attack by absorbing the flying slash of the two other swords (Wado Ichimonji and Sandai Kitetsu), thus making its already great destructive power increase tremendously.

When used by zombie Ryuma and combined with the fencing style of Brook using his shadow and modifications made to his already strong body, Shusui can create a strong blade version of his fencing style, making it far stronger and destructive than the original.

Zoro noted had his battle with Ryuma continued, Shusui would have broken both Sandai Kitetsu and even Wado, another O Wazamono. Depicting that Shusui has some advantages over another sword of same grade.

Same goes for Enma, he's facing difficulties handling that blade similar to when he acquired Shusui, meaning the power of Enma is harder to tame than the former.

Enma has the distinctive trait of drawing out CoA from its wielder in excessive amount. This makes it extremely difficult to wield, so much that Oden was the only one to have ever tamed Enma. Hitetsu said that a normal swordsman trying to use Enma would be drained of all their Haki. Whereas Shusui can be used by anyone.

More powerful a weapon, more skill is required to tame it's power. And even among the same grade, swords have advantage over others. Both of these things have been shown by Oda previously.

Also, I don't remember it very clearly, but didn't Hitetsu said that if Zoro were to succeed in making Enma a permanent black blade, it may increase in "rank" suggesting that it may become a Saijo O Wazamono??

 

[Xione]

None of them are zoro.
No, which is why hes currently training with the blade to reach a new height.
No
The fact oda doesn't do this, an specifically trades out one of zoro swords for Enma. directly implies it the more affective method...
No but then that has nothing to do with the gain enma brings.

Thing is he did take them. He specifically brings enma into the picture.

"None of them are zoro".. oh ok so they're actually more special than the guy who is aiming to be better than them in swordsmanship. They mastered top tier haki without Enma, but zoro can't do that. Hmmm that doesn't make sense.

- Ok so Zoro didn't have Enma to go from being a scrub in Haki to being able to use advanced form of Haki. But this is the limit and he can't progress any further without Enma.. I see.

- That's not what it implies at all. Simply Oda taking a more interesting route than just having Luffy & Zoro duke it out or having Luffy & Zoro doing identical training in where they're just focusing on improving their hakis in same manner.

- Oh it clearly does, if Zoro can grow Haki without Enma, then Enma wasn't the only way.. If Enma was the only way that means Zoro can't do it without Enma.. Unless you're suggesting Zoro's haki training is now going to rely on swords that drain his haki from now on? So we'll get another sword that's going to drain his haki even more than Enma and Zoro will master that.

- Yes because bringing Enma is more interesting. Just like he could've had Luffy face Zoro in his training to master haki rather than just face rocks/cliffs.. Simply because the mangaka decided to do it one way doesn't mean that was the only way, especially when we know what it takes to improve haki. Only way Zoro vs Luffy doesn't improve Zoro's Haki is if Zoro beats Luffy without pushing himself to the limit, and I doubt you would ever suggest sometihng like that.. meaning Zoro vs Luffy would've resulted in better Haki for Zoro, even with Shusui.


So if Enma is the only way for Zoro to improve his Haki, then that means either he gets more swords like Enma in the future or his haki stops improving.
If there are other ways outside of haki-sucking sword.. then that means Enma isn't the only way for him to improve his Haki.


I'm exhausted of this discussion, so i'll be stepping out now.

 

[nik87]

Bcoz better sword means more DC. Before acquiring Enma, Zoro believed that Shusui is an extremely important necessity for him in order to attain victory in his crew's upcoming decisive battle against Kaido and the Beast Pirates.

Shusui is designed to increase both the damage potential and destructive power of the user to a tremendous extent, first demonstrated when Zoro used Shusui against Oars, after using Hyaku Hachi Pound Ho, it created a larger flying slash attack by absorbing the flying slash of the two other swords (Wado Ichimonji and Sandai Kitetsu), thus making its already great destructive power increase tremendously.

When used by zombie Ryuma and combined with the fencing style of Brook using his shadow and modifications made to his already strong body, Shusui can create a strong blade version of his fencing style, making it far stronger and destructive than the original.

Zoro noted had his battle with Ryuma continued, Shusui would have broken both Sandai Kitetsu and even Wado, another O Wazamono. Depicting that Shusui has some advantages over another sword of same grade.

Same goes for Enma, he's facing difficulties handling that blade similar to when he acquired Shusui, meaning the power of Enma is harder to tame than the former.

Enma has the distinctive trait of drawing out CoA from its wielder in excessive amount. This makes it extremely difficult to wield, so much that Oden was the only one to have ever tamed Enma. Hitetsu said that a normal swordsman trying to use Enma would be drained of all their Haki. Whereas Shusui can be used by anyone.

More powerful a weapon, more skill is required to tame it's power. And even among the same grade, swords have advantage over others. Both of these things have been shown by Oda previously.

Also, I don't remember it very clearly, but didn't Hitetsu said that if Zoro were to succeed in making Enma a permanent black blade, it may increase in "rank" suggesting that it may become a Saijo O Wazamono??

Since when is Enma a better sword than black blade Shusui? No, Zoro didnt believe that Shusui is extremely important to attain victory. It is his sword and he wanted it back since he is a Santoryu swordsman.
Shusui is not designed to do that, it is a heavy blade for those who are not used to it, it does something they dont want it to do.
Same like Enma does something they dont want it to do for those who are not used to it. Both blades mastered do nothing.

No, Shusui cannot create what you speak of, Ryuma was simply far better than Brook. Zoro noted that Ryuma was using sword breaking techniques and considering that Shusui is a Kokuto while the other two aren't, it is a no brainer which ones would break.

He tamed Enma faster than he tamed Shusui lol, he literally was cutting the bamboo trees just fine in the same chapter. In that very chapter he prevented Enma's gimmick of sucking haki. Yes, Enma is not for the weak, for the strong, however, it is no different than other blades. What is Enma's advantage over Ame no Habakiri? What did Enma do that Ame didnt?

Hitetsu said something about some increase but what he actually meant remains to be seen. Personally, I dont think it will increase to Saijo O Wazamono, it will only increase in hardness.

 

[Trafalgar_D_Law]

Zoro's improvements are a direct cause of a the training, not the blade. Zoro can train with or without Enma, only thing that changes is the way he trains. I'm not doing any wiggling here, simply pointing out the difference between the two, as there was already a sword upgrade done in the series.. this simply isn't one.

So whats the purpose of enma? Its introduced directly having an affect on the users haki....

The blade doesn't give Zoro any ability. Sanji can't go invisible without the raid suit. Zoro can put Haki into his swords without Enma.

Nonetheless the blade still gives an additional ability. Ur also ignoring the fact once trained it'd likely improve ur flow haki.

"Making it easier to use than Shusui" this is plain out ignoring the reality, Shusui doesn't make his arms into twigs after a swing, Shusui allows him to put as much as power as he wants.. Enma forces him to use more power than he wants. So Enma actually makes it harder for Zoro to attack.

Wrong, zoro stops enma from doing that before training. After training it be easier then shusui, as the blade naturally uses flow haki.

Ranged attacks aren't based on simply having physical strength, they're an actual technique one must learn to do.

Hows that change the point? If they have said technique, they'd be using haki when using enma.

I'm arguing Zoro got weaker, even though I said Zoro will have stronger Haki? That doesn't make any sense. I said Zoro post-Enma training will produce better if not the same results with Shusui as he would with a mastered Enma. Why? Because Shusui is a better quality sword, that is something you cannot argue against even if you hold different opinion.

Which does make any sense, there literally be no reason for enma.

What's the point of the blade? Uh.. Zoro needs a 3rd blade for his fighting style.. that's the point of the blade.. it's a substitute to Shusui, whether it's permanent or temporary we'll find out.

For what? what's the actual purpose of the plot point here?? ur basically saying he would've done the same shit regardless.

"Mastering something" and being given a free be are huge factors in determining a PU, dependent on what's being mastered here. If you're mastering how to lift 300 pound barbell & plates, the barbell and plates won't be the powerup, your physical strength that increased as a result would be the powerup. However, if you're mastering something like a Devil fruit that gives you stronger abilities then that would be a powerup in mastering something. So far Enma doesn't give Zoro any special abilities that he already doesn't have, when it does you can claim it's a powerup.

At this point all i can say is i disgree. Ur making imo random leaps in logic here. Enma an zoro haki gains imo are directly linked. For whatever reason ur stance is enma completely irrelevant.

Zoro isn't learning how to use a sword properly here, he's learning how to contain the sword's negative effects (which is the opposite of a powerup), in learning how to contain that negative effect he'll receive a powerup in his haki.

So hes getting stronger as a direct result on enma "negative effects " thats a PU imo.

 

[ardym]

Enma is of inferior quality than Shusui when it comes to the actual make up of the sword.
Enma furthermore is a determent to a swordsman unless they have a really strong Haki, because it drains the user's haki more than needed.

no it is not they are in the same range , and more Enma get one to use his haki sure , the user must have the ability to use it. only someone like Zoro can use Enma , just like only Sanji can use that RS. You might even say that Enma is even better , and it was given to Zoro solely to give him a power up since Sushi is a good sword but it doesn't have any ability.
Just going to get used to Enma will get stronger that what Zoro himself stated.
it is really laughable how many Zorofans have to deny the obvious just because they think Zoro is superior.
Zoro and Sanji both are strong no doubt about that but they needed power ups to be able to handle yonko commanders .
it is as easy as that.

 

[Dark Admiral]

This is becoming pretty amusing thread
*non less expected when it comes to Zoro though.

 

[Jo_Ndule]

"Training tools" lol

:yasu:
Just another word to hide the fact Enma is the reason why Zoro will become stronger oncs he he masters it.

Once luffy masters haki/gears > becomes stronger
Once zoro masters swords > becomes stronger

 

[Sade]

The fuck is wrong with You guys ?

Training with Enma will make Zoro stronger since he will master his Haki.
That's all , Emma and Sushui compared are around the same level, one is a black blade the other one is drains the own Haki owner.

Don't compare it to a gift automatic power up like the RS.

 

[Vlad D. Impaler]

Since when is Enma a better sword than black blade Shusui? No, Zoro didnt believe that Shusui is extremely important to attain victory. It is his sword and he wanted it back since he is a Santoryu swordsman.
Shusui is not designed to do that, it is a heavy blade for those who are not used to it, it does something they dont want it to do.
Same like Enma does something they dont want it to do for those who are not used to it. Both blades mastered do nothing.

No, Shusui cannot create what you speak of, Ryuma was simply far better than Brook. Zoro noted that Ryuma was using sword breaking techniques and considering that Shusui is a Kokuto while the other two aren't, it is a no brainer which ones would break.

He tamed Enma faster than he tamed Shusui lol, he literally was cutting the bamboo trees just fine in the same chapter. In that very chapter he prevented Enma's gimmick of sucking haki. Yes, Enma is not for the weak, for the strong, however, it is no different than other blades. What is Enma's advantage over Ame no Habakiri? What did Enma do that Ame didnt?

Hitetsu said something about some increase but what he actually meant remains to be seen. Personally, I dont think it will increase to Saijo O Wazamono, it will only increase in hardness.

Yes it does, Shusui made Zoro's attacks more powerful. Zoro himself admitted that

 

[Jo_Ndule]

The fuck is wrong with You guys ?

Training with Enma will make Zoro stronger since he will master his Haki.
That's all , Emma and Sushui compared are around the same level, one is a black blade the other one is drains the own Haki owner.

Don't compare it to a gift automatic power up like the RS.

Zoro didnt say "once I master haki " but rather "once I get used to/master this sword.."

He is training with Enma by controlling his haki.

Automatic or manual
Still a PU

 

[Red Admiral]

what are you guys are talking about ...

clearly Zoro could not cut this cliff that easy with Shusui

the story is showing us that ...

there is no end to Zoro fandom deny and fan fictions

 

[Trafalgar_D_Law]

Don't compare it to a gift automatic power up like the RS.

Is anybody even doing this.


zoro fans seem to just wanna distance themselves from sanji for some reason.

 

[nik87]

Yes it does, Shusui made Zoro's attacks more powerful. Zoro himself admitted that

He said he isnt used to it.

what are you guys are talking about ...

clearly Zoro could not cut this cliff that easy with Shusui
the story is showing us that ...
there is no end to Zoro fandom deny and fan fictions

He couldnt cut the coast easily? That's a lie. He wasnt intending to cut the coast at all.
When he wants to cut he goes through a mountain casually with a nameless slash.

 

[Sade]

what are you guys are talking about ...

clearly Zoro could not cut this cliff that easy with Shusui

the story is showing us that ...

there is no end to Zoro fandom deny and fan fictions

Zoro in that scene used more attack power than necessary due to Enma draining his Haki.
He wanted to cut the three but it ended in cutting the cliff.