Character Discussion Teas, webs, and a man's resolution. Why is the "Black Maria" plotline a moment of Character Development for Sanji?
- Thread starter Doggo
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Sanji is not sexist. He's a guy that put women on the same view as men. Unlike America before 1920.
This beautiful thread should help.
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-development-analysis-in-chapter-1-005.11572/
This beautiful thread should help.
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-development-analysis-in-chapter-1-005.11572/
Good thread. I've replied to a thread like this one before, but here's my take on this matter.
First of all, let me say that the act of calling Robin to his rescue was a correct one by Sanji.
Now on to what you call a character development. The main point is about Sanji learning from his past mistake and now trusting his friends, if I get it wrong, correct me.
The main reason why I don't consider this a character development for Sanji is because he's been trusting his friends since forever. I can list a few examples.
Sanji trusted Usopp and Nami in EL in particular. Usopp to stopped Spandam and his lackeys. Nami to defeat Kalifa and take the key.
Nami case is a notable one. Because during her fight, Chopper intervened and coincidently saved Sanji from Kalifa's power.
But he didn't come back to help Nami out, he believed her to beat a highly capable assassin from the WG side on her own.
Even before EL, he'd showed that he trusted his female friends, like the case with Vivi, he let her take care the obstacles to the biggest threat to them back then on her own.
After TS, it was showed again with Zoro in PH. And then at Dressrosa, he let the other half of the crew take care of the problems because he trusted that they'll be alright even without him with them. Not to mention, he even left behind Viola who was crying for his help at the beginning. Sanji didn't hesitate and believe his friends will save the country and the girl who asked him for help.
It was only at Zou/WCI that his trust in his friends wavered in face of the dark past coming back to him.
BUT that side of waverness of his was resolved within the arc, as how he trusted Luffy to beat the undefeated legend that was Katakuri. After that, he also trusted that Luffy's defeat by Kaido's hands was not serious/that his captain could survive on his own and focused on the task assigned to him by Kin'emon.
So the kind of development you spoke of here, Sanji either already has had them since a long ago, or he had regained them at WCI arc.
So while his call was correct on the Maria's case imo, it doesn't mean he's got a new development from that.
Btw he was kinda at fault for being captured by enemies who are supposed to be way weaker than him.
But again, I don't hold it again him much since it's kinda PIS to make Robin and Brook look more epic.
Edit: And yes, you didn't have to point me out with that Sanji being a goat ahaha.
Nevertheless, it seems you guys really mistook bighorn sheep for mere sheep imo. They look glorious and more like the "bélier" which is Sanji's animal's name in French.
Bighorn sheep
Bélier
First of all, let me say that the act of calling Robin to his rescue was a correct one by Sanji.
Now on to what you call a character development. The main point is about Sanji learning from his past mistake and now trusting his friends, if I get it wrong, correct me.
The main reason why I don't consider this a character development for Sanji is because he's been trusting his friends since forever. I can list a few examples.
Sanji trusted Usopp and Nami in EL in particular. Usopp to stopped Spandam and his lackeys. Nami to defeat Kalifa and take the key.
Nami case is a notable one. Because during her fight, Chopper intervened and coincidently saved Sanji from Kalifa's power.
But he didn't come back to help Nami out, he believed her to beat a highly capable assassin from the WG side on her own.
Even before EL, he'd showed that he trusted his female friends, like the case with Vivi, he let her take care the obstacles to the biggest threat to them back then on her own.
After TS, it was showed again with Zoro in PH. And then at Dressrosa, he let the other half of the crew take care of the problems because he trusted that they'll be alright even without him with them. Not to mention, he even left behind Viola who was crying for his help at the beginning. Sanji didn't hesitate and believe his friends will save the country and the girl who asked him for help.
It was only at Zou/WCI that his trust in his friends wavered in face of the dark past coming back to him.
BUT that side of waverness of his was resolved within the arc, as how he trusted Luffy to beat the undefeated legend that was Katakuri. After that, he also trusted that Luffy's defeat by Kaido's hands was not serious/that his captain could survive on his own and focused on the task assigned to him by Kin'emon.
So the kind of development you spoke of here, Sanji either already has had them since a long ago, or he had regained them at WCI arc.
So while his call was correct on the Maria's case imo, it doesn't mean he's got a new development from that.
Btw he was kinda at fault for being captured by enemies who are supposed to be way weaker than him.
But again, I don't hold it again him much since it's kinda PIS to make Robin and Brook look more epic.
Edit: And yes, you didn't have to point me out with that Sanji being a goat ahaha.
Nevertheless, it seems you guys really mistook bighorn sheep for mere sheep imo. They look glorious and more like the "bélier" which is Sanji's animal's name in French.
Bighorn sheep
Bélier
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Some splashes of water on Nami and her legs got right back so I don't know why it'd have take more time for Sanji to recover when a whole bathtub was there for him.
But even if he wasn't recovered or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that he believed Nami could hold her own. And it certainly doesn't go against the points I mentioned don't you think?
But even if he wasn't recovered or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that he believed Nami could hold her own. And it certainly doesn't go against the points I mentioned don't you think?
that's as far as i agree with you.
sanji never had problems trusting his friends, the whole point of WCI is that sanji didn't want his family past to bleed over his crew mates journey, it was a personal matter he wanted to solve alone. he's situation was very different from robin cuz while robin was able to talk shit to the crew and hurt them while keeping a straight face she didn't trust them in the first place that they're only gonna use her like every one before them, she literally had to be convinced to be back into the crew because they truly cared about her, sanji on the other hand was shown visibly struggling and in pain even when he was talking shit to luffy he knew he was only lying to himself.
lol no, these are completely different circumstances. he didn't run from kalifa because she had the key and was waiting for someone to come and took over for him hence why he didn't stop nami from going to kalifa, it's like what he said to ussop "i do what you can't do, and you do what i can't do".
in black maria's case there was nothing there for him to keep him around, it was just a waste of time, he himself said so: "untie me i'm short on time if you do it now i can still overlook this", so him calling robin for help is nothing more than letting her do what he can't do,
sanji never had problems trusting his friends, the whole point of WCI is that sanji didn't want his family past to bleed over his crew mates journey, it was a personal matter he wanted to solve alone. he's situation was very different from robin cuz while robin was able to talk shit to the crew and hurt them while keeping a straight face she didn't trust them in the first place that they're only gonna use her like every one before them, she literally had to be convinced to be back into the crew because they truly cared about her, sanji on the other hand was shown visibly struggling and in pain even when he was talking shit to luffy he knew he was only lying to himself.
lol no, these are completely different circumstances. he didn't run from kalifa because she had the key and was waiting for someone to come and took over for him hence why he didn't stop nami from going to kalifa, it's like what he said to ussop "i do what you can't do, and you do what i can't do".
in black maria's case there was nothing there for him to keep him around, it was just a waste of time, he himself said so: "untie me i'm short on time if you do it now i can still overlook this", so him calling robin for help is nothing more than letting her do what he can't do,
Alvida was first big enemy that luffy fought and what happened.
How can you say this when the first named enemy luffy punches is a woman, Neither luffy and zoro (crushing mrs monday head) have this rule about hiting women and they are the 1 and 2 of the main characters. this oda has this "chivalry" is BS just because a single character is unable to hit women and has "chivalry" doesnt mean
Oda could have not had sanji not be a idiot and get caught by a simple trap ,he can still have this robin/sanji moment but not written this poorly.
How can you say this when the first named enemy luffy punches is a woman, Neither luffy and zoro (crushing mrs monday head) have this rule about hiting women and they are the 1 and 2 of the main characters. this oda has this "chivalry" is BS just because a single character is unable to hit women and has "chivalry" doesnt mean
A few disclaimers. This thread is not made with the intention of convincing anyone to LIKE the characters or his quirks. This is purely to explain the narrative implications of a controversial plot about Sanji's character. There were so many Sanji threads these last days, that I actually wanted to postpone this one so it would not just "another one".
But @Blother basically begged me to do it, so I, being a benevolent entity that I am, answered his prays.
(Sanji is GOAT).
First point to be adressed. Sanji's refusal to hit a woman:
Why is that? Is it PURELY because Zeff told him its a bad thing to do? No. According to a SBS, Oda stated that Sanji is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of hitting a woman.
"bu-bu-but Big Meme...". Oda also stated that Sanji was not attacking BM, just blocking her strike at Reiju. Wanna complain about it? Complain it to the dude that wrote that technicality.
What matters is: the character can't do it. It's already in his subconscious. If you watched Inception, imagine as if it was an "idea" planted on Sanji's mind. It grows, it defines him. Now that we established that he will NEVER DO IT, let's talk about what he CAN DO.
Let's travel back to Ennies Lobby. He tried to take the key from Kalifa, but without being able to actually hit her, he fell victim to her "soap" power, that basically destroys brawlers. "He WaS gOinG tO lEt RobIN DiE". Yes. Does the character feel bad about it? Yes, he does. Can the character do anything about it? No, he can't. And if you think it's all a matter of "will", then we might as well make the entire field of Psychology irrelevant. So fuck that.
Dude feels bad about not being able to get the key, and feels guilty because it could fuck up Robin. He is not unaware of the consequences of this limitation. I'm also gonna briefly mention that he tells Usopp the "there are things you can't do, and there are things I can't do". So he understands his limitation but he counts on his friends to have his back, meanwhile he backs up his friends in any way he CAN. Nami confronts him and tells that he should just "run" when put in a situation like that, than proceeds to say she is impressed by his resolution.
Then, we get to Black Maria's plotline.
He got captured by webs. You know. Sticky things spiders use to trap stuff. Imagine that. Webs that do web stuff. What did Sanji do in that situation? Tried to beat Black Maria by not hitting her? No. He tried to....RUN.
HO.
LY.
FUCK.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT, THIS TIME, HE DID WHAT NAMI SAID HE SHOULD DO? HE COMPROMISED THE PART OF HIS CHIVALRY THAT HE COULD?????? IMAGINE THAT!
Now another topic.
Oda has a sense of "chivalry" completely outdated, that, in fact, actually reiterate a chauvinist way of thinking that is: "women are these weak and fragile creatures and must be protected at all costs". I REALLY am not going to extend a debate about feminism here because reasons. But that's irrevelant.
In Oda's mind, this "chivalry" is a good thing, and he expects his male audience to take a lesson here. Dont hit women. Wow, much complex.
During Kalifa's scenario, Sanji did not ask for help, because he could not simply ask "Nami", who is a person he views as a fragile creature he must protect, to fight for him.
Now we get back to Black Maria.
First, he tries to run away, but defeats all the male subordinates before that, so he made what he could to weaken BM's forces. But, spider, web. You know the drill. Good stuff to capture and restrain someone.
Then Black Maria proceeds to beat him and tells him there's a communicator that will resonate throughout the entire castle, so he should call Nico Robin, so BM can capture her.
Now, if it WERE the SAME Sanji we had in EL, he would view Robin as this weak and fragile creature that must be protected at all costs. Still a chauvinist way of looking at women. He tried to run already, but that didnt work. So, EL Sanji would just take the beating until passing out or dying.
HE IMMEDIATELY CALLS FOR ROBIN.
WHY?
Because he views Robin as a strong and capable woman and fighter, that can easily take care of Black Maria.
"But but trap".
Dude, he said he was being held captive. And there's a message resonating throughout the entire castle. Who the fuck needs more than 2 brain cells to realize there's an ambush waiting for her? Especially a woman that spent more than 20 years on the run? My goodness. If you think Robin would just barge him and consider this possibility, than you clearly think Robin is a freaking moron.
There. He learned from his past mistake, trusted his teammate, tried to do what he could. Did things differently from EL and now can run around the castle beating some Beast Pirate's ass.
Yay. Development.
"bu-bu-but CP0.."
Dude, look up something called "metagaming DnD". That's all I'm going to say about that.
Again, this is not a thread made to "convince" you that "sanji is actually cool" or whatever. I think we are all grown enough to make these kinds of decisions by ourselves.
But if you DID have any misconceptions about why that moment WAS a moment of development, there you go.
"But I think that's laaaaaame".
So? Do I tell you what you should wear, or eat or watch? I'm not telling you to "like the color blue". I'm just explaining to you that "the sky is blue". (if you come here with some "actually it's just a refraction event that makes the sky look blue" or whatever, a preemptive "nobody likes a smartass" to you).
Cheers.
:cheers:
But @Blother basically begged me to do it, so I, being a benevolent entity that I am, answered his prays.
First point to be adressed. Sanji's refusal to hit a woman:
Why is that? Is it PURELY because Zeff told him its a bad thing to do? No. According to a SBS, Oda stated that Sanji is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of hitting a woman.
"bu-bu-but Big Meme...". Oda also stated that Sanji was not attacking BM, just blocking her strike at Reiju. Wanna complain about it? Complain it to the dude that wrote that technicality.
What matters is: the character can't do it. It's already in his subconscious. If you watched Inception, imagine as if it was an "idea" planted on Sanji's mind. It grows, it defines him. Now that we established that he will NEVER DO IT, let's talk about what he CAN DO.
Let's travel back to Ennies Lobby. He tried to take the key from Kalifa, but without being able to actually hit her, he fell victim to her "soap" power, that basically destroys brawlers. "He WaS gOinG tO lEt RobIN DiE". Yes. Does the character feel bad about it? Yes, he does. Can the character do anything about it? No, he can't. And if you think it's all a matter of "will", then we might as well make the entire field of Psychology irrelevant. So fuck that.
Dude feels bad about not being able to get the key, and feels guilty because it could fuck up Robin. He is not unaware of the consequences of this limitation. I'm also gonna briefly mention that he tells Usopp the "there are things you can't do, and there are things I can't do". So he understands his limitation but he counts on his friends to have his back, meanwhile he backs up his friends in any way he CAN. Nami confronts him and tells that he should just "run" when put in a situation like that, than proceeds to say she is impressed by his resolution.
Then, we get to Black Maria's plotline.
He got captured by webs. You know. Sticky things spiders use to trap stuff. Imagine that. Webs that do web stuff. What did Sanji do in that situation? Tried to beat Black Maria by not hitting her? No. He tried to....RUN.
HO.
LY.
FUCK.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT, THIS TIME, HE DID WHAT NAMI SAID HE SHOULD DO? HE COMPROMISED THE PART OF HIS CHIVALRY THAT HE COULD?????? IMAGINE THAT!
Now another topic.
Oda has a sense of "chivalry" completely outdated, that, in fact, actually reiterate a chauvinist way of thinking that is: "women are these weak and fragile creatures and must be protected at all costs". I REALLY am not going to extend a debate about feminism here because reasons. But that's irrevelant.
In Oda's mind, this "chivalry" is a good thing, and he expects his male audience to take a lesson here. Dont hit women. Wow, much complex.
During Kalifa's scenario, Sanji did not ask for help, because he could not simply ask "Nami", who is a person he views as a fragile creature he must protect, to fight for him.
Now we get back to Black Maria.
First, he tries to run away, but defeats all the male subordinates before that, so he made what he could to weaken BM's forces. But, spider, web. You know the drill. Good stuff to capture and restrain someone.
Then Black Maria proceeds to beat him and tells him there's a communicator that will resonate throughout the entire castle, so he should call Nico Robin, so BM can capture her.
Now, if it WERE the SAME Sanji we had in EL, he would view Robin as this weak and fragile creature that must be protected at all costs. Still a chauvinist way of looking at women. He tried to run already, but that didnt work. So, EL Sanji would just take the beating until passing out or dying.
HE IMMEDIATELY CALLS FOR ROBIN.
WHY?
Because he views Robin as a strong and capable woman and fighter, that can easily take care of Black Maria.
"But but trap".
Dude, he said he was being held captive. And there's a message resonating throughout the entire castle. Who the fuck needs more than 2 brain cells to realize there's an ambush waiting for her? Especially a woman that spent more than 20 years on the run? My goodness. If you think Robin would just barge him and consider this possibility, than you clearly think Robin is a freaking moron.
There. He learned from his past mistake, trusted his teammate, tried to do what he could. Did things differently from EL and now can run around the castle beating some Beast Pirate's ass.
Yay. Development.
"bu-bu-but CP0.."
Dude, look up something called "metagaming DnD". That's all I'm going to say about that.
Again, this is not a thread made to "convince" you that "sanji is actually cool" or whatever. I think we are all grown enough to make these kinds of decisions by ourselves.
But if you DID have any misconceptions about why that moment WAS a moment of development, there you go.
"But I think that's laaaaaame".
So? Do I tell you what you should wear, or eat or watch? I'm not telling you to "like the color blue". I'm just explaining to you that "the sky is blue". (if you come here with some "actually it's just a refraction event that makes the sky look blue" or whatever, a preemptive "nobody likes a smartass" to you).
Cheers.
:cheers:
The difference is clear and so it is his development, but don't expect for the half of this forum to understand, they won't even try since it's a "good thing for Sanji, their enemy", yes, half of this forum have a fictional character as an enemy and they need to hate him no matter what lmao.
And about that part, there is one more thing which happened at the same time, Robin attitude was completely different unlike in Enies Lobby, as well, where this happened with Sanji too. So author clearly played with both of these situations and developed their characters.
Still, this part is shit writing from author's part, he could have done it in another way:
Sanji was capable of free his feet himself, then his hands and all of that while running from this group. But then, after freeing himself completely (like we saw in the chapter before the Robin's entrance), this group captured him again? So with a disadvantageous situation he could run but with favorable situation he couldn't? That was retarded. He could simply have destroyed the walls and go out.
And about that part, there is one more thing which happened at the same time, Robin attitude was completely different unlike in Enies Lobby, as well, where this happened with Sanji too. So author clearly played with both of these situations and developed their characters.
Still, this part is shit writing from author's part, he could have done it in another way:
Sanji was capable of free his feet himself, then his hands and all of that while running from this group. But then, after freeing himself completely (like we saw in the chapter before the Robin's entrance), this group captured him again? So with a disadvantageous situation he could run but with favorable situation he couldn't? That was retarded. He could simply have destroyed the walls and go out.