General & Others The problem with Zkk
- Thread starter roronoa_fan
- Start date
Since the "Zoan DF having its own will" is true, isn't there a possibility of the Uo Uo no Mi going berserk and awakening once Kaido is beaten and (directly or otherwise) admitting that he isn't Joyboy after all? Zoan awakening back in Impel Down seemed to erase any semblance of intelligence and will, leaving only berserkers. This might be the case with ZKK: its being a mercy kill instead of the so called "killing a beaten and defenseless Kaido" so many people have a problem with. 
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But wouldn’t this just relate into the prophecy Toki gave to the flower capital of Nine Shadows bringing forth a brilliant dawn?
If it was literally any other mindless dragon and not a character I’d be all for Zoro killing this dragon. But the idea of Oda killing a character by a protagonists hands on panel, it seems kinda gritty for one piece.
I understand ZKK isn’t about some almighty feat because mindless Kaido likely cant use haki and at that point it’s just like killing the PH dragon, but I really just don’t think Oda will have the balls to suddenly switch the mood of one piece to this.
If it was literally any other mindless dragon and not a character I’d be all for Zoro killing this dragon. But the idea of Oda killing a character by a protagonists hands on panel, it seems kinda gritty for one piece.
I understand ZKK isn’t about some almighty feat because mindless Kaido likely cant use haki and at that point it’s just like killing the PH dragon, but I really just don’t think Oda will have the balls to suddenly switch the mood of one piece to this.
uhh like is that a problem or am i missing something if zoro uses ashura and kills kaido and he was the 9 shadows and upon kaidos death he brought the dawn...well time will tell if he has the balls to do so it has been stated that nobody could kill kaido even himself,odens goal was to open the borders that meant killing kaido to do so,zoro has enma and has inherited that will all of this is in the story now we just waiting to see if oda will pull it off also i don't think its too gritty oda already told us in 1033 via kozaburo to Zoro:Listen closely a swords like a kitchen knife but for MURDER!! They're created to kill people!!! and a black smith hones his craft so that his weapons are better at killing than any other its not crazy to think with all this zoro may have him pull off this killing feat
9 shadows not 9 scabbards - one person only Emits one shadow. And the dawn is Luffy as we’ve been shown the past few chapters.
As for the rest, again Oda hasn’t had a single protagonist kill someone on panel. And a beheading or however else you think ZKK is going to take place, it involves seeing Zoro murder a character, which is something wildly different from what Oda does.
As for the rest, again Oda hasn’t had a single protagonist kill someone on panel. And a beheading or however else you think ZKK is going to take place, it involves seeing Zoro murder a character, which is something wildly different from what Oda does.
The problem with the killing of Kaido is because Zoro is the one doing it.
If Luffy were to kill Kaido, you would see all those who say ZKK is bad, do a 180°.
They would say Goda, Goda, Goda!!!
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Zoro's name literally means Dawn.
So are the Looney Tunes so Oda is already breaking the limits. You cant complain about that abymore.
If Luffy were to kill Kaido, you would see all those who say ZKK is bad, do a 180°.
They would say Goda, Goda, Goda!!!
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Zoro's name literally means Dawn.
So are the Looney Tunes so Oda is already breaking the limits. You cant complain about that abymore.
Well see thats just your interpretation so far and its valid don't get me wrong but its clear the battle is not about to end and as for the rest this is valid too oda has not had a single protagonist kill someone on panel but again oda is literally giving us all this manga evidence that he may actually pull this off yes its wildly different than what he normally does but wano is def different you have to think as well that oda won't just have it be a murder just to murder there will be a reason for kaido head to be chopped off rather thats protecting the citizens,luffy from all his fighting and being downed,or some other reason i am not thinking of
And that’s a valid interpretation. I just don’t think Wano is going to be any different with Kaido defeat as Moriah was.
I think Kaidos going to be defeated by Luffy in Onigashima and falls in the flower capital -> Luffy is unconscious -> Chopper finishes healing Zoro -> Zoro stands up -> Onigashima begins to fall cause Kaidos no longer holding it -> Suddenly Onigashima lurches towards the Flower Capital -> Berserker Kaido with no haki is here (awakened form and mindless) -> Nine Straw Hats hold off Kaido -> The Lanterns come and wake Luffy up -> Scene of Luffy barely standing using Red Hawk to finish Kaido with the lanterns and the dawn in the background -> Kaido falls below the waves unable to move but able to breath since he has the fish fish fruit.
After this is when I think Zoro will have his time to shine as the next Ryuma. It’s stated that Ryuma protected this country from those who wanted it and that’s why the WG feared Wano. Zoro fighting an army of WG agents to keep Wano free will forge Enma black and will end with all the Samurai backing up Zoro (Zoro rounding up Samurai foreshadowing) and ending with the Gorosei being told a one eyed samurai with a black blade is stopping us and they’ll connect it to Ryuma.
I think Kaidos going to be defeated by Luffy in Onigashima and falls in the flower capital -> Luffy is unconscious -> Chopper finishes healing Zoro -> Zoro stands up -> Onigashima begins to fall cause Kaidos no longer holding it -> Suddenly Onigashima lurches towards the Flower Capital -> Berserker Kaido with no haki is here (awakened form and mindless) -> Nine Straw Hats hold off Kaido -> The Lanterns come and wake Luffy up -> Scene of Luffy barely standing using Red Hawk to finish Kaido with the lanterns and the dawn in the background -> Kaido falls below the waves unable to move but able to breath since he has the fish fish fruit.
After this is when I think Zoro will have his time to shine as the next Ryuma. It’s stated that Ryuma protected this country from those who wanted it and that’s why the WG feared Wano. Zoro fighting an army of WG agents to keep Wano free will forge Enma black and will end with all the Samurai backing up Zoro (Zoro rounding up Samurai foreshadowing) and ending with the Gorosei being told a one eyed samurai with a black blade is stopping us and they’ll connect it to Ryuma.
I understand that we've never seen a protagonist kill a villain and it might seem too hard for some viewers, but I think the context can soften that impact. I'll give the example of fullmetal, hence the spoiler tag.
When Mustang attacks Envy incessantly, we find revenge pleasurable because we sympathize with the character. We mourn Hughes' death, we were sad for his daughter (coincidentally the same happens with Otoko), we were sad for Mustang. Revenge is a human instinct, as morally repugnant as it is, we like to feel that feeling.
Luffy is the personification of the good person, but Zoro is not, on the contrary, we have seen throughout the story that Zoro is the opposite. He was the one who resisted Robin the most and only came to trust her after Enies Lobby.
He made it clear against Monet that if necessary he would have no problem killing someone much weaker. I know you disagree, but he is introduced as the man who killed someone else's pet, killed Mr. 7, and we don't know whether the Wano magistrate ended up dying or not, although what is important for our discussion is the scene of the attack.
I have disagreements on the first 3 points.
(1-3) I don't think there would be a problem with the power level, he left a scar on Kaido before he received his ACOC upgrade, his Hiryu Kaen without COC was a cause for concern for both Yonko. If Zoro still forges a black blade as many believe, he can gain even more power, enough to execute Kaido.
(2) I agree that Luffy always defeats the leader, I never expected anything different, in fact for a long time I said that Luffy would defeat Kaido alone and I was told that I was completely stupid to believe that Luffy would already defeat the strongest creature because future fights would make no sense. What I believe is in execution, after Luffy defeats Kaido Zoro executes him, as said by Ashura Douji in chapter 993
Very interesting this point of loyalty, I had never seen it like that. Like you, I'm sure Zoro wouldn't turn against Luffy, with the exception of the hypothesis mentioned in Chapter 6, but it remains to be seen to what extent it will be considered an order that Kaido stays alive.
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When Mustang attacks Envy incessantly, we find revenge pleasurable because we sympathize with the character. We mourn Hughes' death, we were sad for his daughter (coincidentally the same happens with Otoko), we were sad for Mustang. Revenge is a human instinct, as morally repugnant as it is, we like to feel that feeling.
Luffy is the personification of the good person, but Zoro is not, on the contrary, we have seen throughout the story that Zoro is the opposite. He was the one who resisted Robin the most and only came to trust her after Enies Lobby.
He made it clear against Monet that if necessary he would have no problem killing someone much weaker. I know you disagree, but he is introduced as the man who killed someone else's pet, killed Mr. 7, and we don't know whether the Wano magistrate ended up dying or not, although what is important for our discussion is the scene of the attack.
I have disagreements on the first 3 points.
(1-3) I don't think there would be a problem with the power level, he left a scar on Kaido before he received his ACOC upgrade, his Hiryu Kaen without COC was a cause for concern for both Yonko. If Zoro still forges a black blade as many believe, he can gain even more power, enough to execute Kaido.
(2) I agree that Luffy always defeats the leader, I never expected anything different, in fact for a long time I said that Luffy would defeat Kaido alone and I was told that I was completely stupid to believe that Luffy would already defeat the strongest creature because future fights would make no sense. What I believe is in execution, after Luffy defeats Kaido Zoro executes him, as said by Ashura Douji in chapter 993
Very interesting this point of loyalty, I had never seen it like that. Like you, I'm sure Zoro wouldn't turn against Luffy, with the exception of the hypothesis mentioned in Chapter 6, but it remains to be seen to what extent it will be considered an order that Kaido stays alive.
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What is “Kaido’s number” in this cover page you say?
What does this cover page (ch. 784) have to do with killing Kaido?
What does this cover page (ch. 784) have to do with killing Kaido?
I understand that we've never seen a protagonist kill a villain and it might seem too hard for some viewers, but I think the context can soften that impact. I'll give the example of fullmetal, hence the spoiler tag.
When Mustang attacks Envy incessantly, we find revenge pleasurable because we sympathize with the character. We mourn Hughes' death, we were sad for his daughter (coincidentally the same happens with Otoko), we were sad for Mustang. Revenge is a human instinct, as morally repugnant as it is, we like to feel that feeling.
Luffy is the personification of the good person, but Zoro is not, on the contrary, we have seen throughout the story that Zoro is the opposite. He was the one who resisted Robin the most and only came to trust her after Enies Lobby.
He made it clear against Monet that if necessary he would have no problem killing someone much weaker. I know you disagree, but he is introduced as the man who killed someone else's pet, killed Mr. 7, and we don't know whether the Wano magistrate ended up dying or not, although what is important for our discussion is the scene of the attack.
I have disagreements on the first 3 points.
(1-3) I don't think there would be a problem with the power level, he left a scar on Kaido before he received his ACOC upgrade, his Hiryu Kaen without COC was a cause for concern for both Yonko. If Zoro still forges a black blade as many believe, he can gain even more power, enough to execute Kaido.
(2) I agree that Luffy always defeats the leader, I never expected anything different, in fact for a long time I said that Luffy would defeat Kaido alone and I was told that I was completely stupid to believe that Luffy would already defeat the strongest creature because future fights would make no sense. What I believe is in execution, after Luffy defeats Kaido Zoro executes him, as said by Ashura Douji in chapter 993
Very interesting this point of loyalty, I had never seen it like that. Like you, I'm sure Zoro wouldn't turn against Luffy, with the exception of the hypothesis mentioned in Chapter 6, but it remains to be seen to what extent it will be considered an order that Kaido stays alive.
[automerge]1648735852[/automerge]
When Mustang attacks Envy incessantly, we find revenge pleasurable because we sympathize with the character. We mourn Hughes' death, we were sad for his daughter (coincidentally the same happens with Otoko), we were sad for Mustang. Revenge is a human instinct, as morally repugnant as it is, we like to feel that feeling.
Luffy is the personification of the good person, but Zoro is not, on the contrary, we have seen throughout the story that Zoro is the opposite. He was the one who resisted Robin the most and only came to trust her after Enies Lobby.
He made it clear against Monet that if necessary he would have no problem killing someone much weaker. I know you disagree, but he is introduced as the man who killed someone else's pet, killed Mr. 7, and we don't know whether the Wano magistrate ended up dying or not, although what is important for our discussion is the scene of the attack.
I have disagreements on the first 3 points.
(1-3) I don't think there would be a problem with the power level, he left a scar on Kaido before he received his ACOC upgrade, his Hiryu Kaen without COC was a cause for concern for both Yonko. If Zoro still forges a black blade as many believe, he can gain even more power, enough to execute Kaido.
(2) I agree that Luffy always defeats the leader, I never expected anything different, in fact for a long time I said that Luffy would defeat Kaido alone and I was told that I was completely stupid to believe that Luffy would already defeat the strongest creature because future fights would make no sense. What I believe is in execution, after Luffy defeats Kaido Zoro executes him, as said by Ashura Douji in chapter 993
Very interesting this point of loyalty, I had never seen it like that. Like you, I'm sure Zoro wouldn't turn against Luffy, with the exception of the hypothesis mentioned in Chapter 6, but it remains to be seen to what extent it will be considered an order that Kaido stays alive.
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So my main issue with this scenario and well yes it does involve some hc until further proven chap 795 gave kaido the strongest in land,sea,air title to me how can kaido be the strongest in the sea if all he can do is be under water breathing like jack and he can't move his body also his hobby is suicide it's almost a given that he tried jumping in the water at some point and figured out he could move because he is a fish fish user hc over
Now for zoro and defending wano personally i am not against it,it would be a epic moment but i think we have to separate the fact vs the legend (chap 937) the absolute fact that nobody can deny is that wano was known as the land of gold, pirates wanted it ryuma singlehandedly defends wano and made it known to the world that wano was the land of samurai this is the fact but what made ryuma a legend as a swordsman was the dragon that he slew over the capital that being said to me the bigger feat the legend is the slaying the dragon over the capital thats what ryumas legendary moment is and if oda goes through with it everyone in wano will put ryuma and zoro together also he may actually get both but even i would be shocked if oda pushes him that far lol tbh like i get that ryuma did that but do keep in mind we have a giant elephant standing over the ships that could crush them with one command from momo
Now for zoro and defending wano personally i am not against it,it would be a epic moment but i think we have to separate the fact vs the legend (chap 937) the absolute fact that nobody can deny is that wano was known as the land of gold, pirates wanted it ryuma singlehandedly defends wano and made it known to the world that wano was the land of samurai this is the fact but what made ryuma a legend as a swordsman was the dragon that he slew over the capital that being said to me the bigger feat the legend is the slaying the dragon over the capital thats what ryumas legendary moment is and if oda goes through with it everyone in wano will put ryuma and zoro together also he may actually get both but even i would be shocked if oda pushes him that far lol tbh like i get that ryuma did that but do keep in mind we have a giant elephant standing over the ships that could crush them with one command from momo
I think the sea in his title land sea and air describes his nautical combat. I don’t think even Kaido can move completely submerged even a massive giant like Sanjuan Wolf gets physically weakened the more he’s submerged.
I may be wrong and when I’m out of work I’ll reread the chapter, but I remember Gyukimaru saying the dragon was just one of the legends that Ryuma is attributed. I feel like the true reason Wano is feared by the world isn’t because he killed a dragon, it’s because he stopped the Pirates and World Government from taking Wanos treasure. So the best way for Zoro to connect himself with the legend imo is to protect Wano as he has already slayed a dragon.
I think Kaido is Luffys bounty. The world government trying to annex Wano is Zoros
I may be wrong and when I’m out of work I’ll reread the chapter, but I remember Gyukimaru saying the dragon was just one of the legends that Ryuma is attributed. I feel like the true reason Wano is feared by the world isn’t because he killed a dragon, it’s because he stopped the Pirates and World Government from taking Wanos treasure. So the best way for Zoro to connect himself with the legend imo is to protect Wano as he has already slayed a dragon.
I think Kaido is Luffys bounty. The world government trying to annex Wano is Zoros
well we just have to wait and see on the first point i think him being a fish fish model will have some kind of payoff otherwise he could just go under water be immobile and hold breath simple ik it may not be that simple this is a anime lol
yes you are right its one of ryumas legends as said in the chapter and i agree with you the fact that he stopped the wg is what has the wg fearing wano(also oden if i remember right via sakazukis words) but again the citizens do not even knows the wg is here and again they can be handled by a simple trunk swing the citizens are all at the fire festival getting drunk,partying,wishing that kaido and orochi was finished so they can live a nice life etc i would say that the wg probably doesn't even care that ryuma slayed a dragon they never even mentioned it so yea its probably his feat of defeating them but to that i say that the citizens of wano would be more privy to the legend of ryuma slaying a dragon over the capital because ryuma is a national treasure and God of the blade if you want the wano citizens to recognize any feat its zoro looking like the legend ryuma slaying the dragon also again well for me and my opinion fact vs legend the definition of legend is a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated nobody can really say for a fact that ryuma slayed a dragon its his legend(unauthenticated historical feat) but we know in story that he defended wano from the wg thats indisputable
yes you are right its one of ryumas legends as said in the chapter and i agree with you the fact that he stopped the wg is what has the wg fearing wano(also oden if i remember right via sakazukis words) but again the citizens do not even knows the wg is here and again they can be handled by a simple trunk swing the citizens are all at the fire festival getting drunk,partying,wishing that kaido and orochi was finished so they can live a nice life etc i would say that the wg probably doesn't even care that ryuma slayed a dragon they never even mentioned it so yea its probably his feat of defeating them but to that i say that the citizens of wano would be more privy to the legend of ryuma slaying a dragon over the capital because ryuma is a national treasure and God of the blade if you want the wano citizens to recognize any feat its zoro looking like the legend ryuma slaying the dragon also again well for me and my opinion fact vs legend the definition of legend is a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated nobody can really say for a fact that ryuma slayed a dragon its his legend(unauthenticated historical feat) but we know in story that he defended wano from the wg thats indisputable
