Speculations To ZKK deniers, when will Enma turn black?

[Celestial D. Dragon]

At this point, Zoro killing Orochi would be completely anticlimactic. So many people have beheaded Orochi. Not only that, but we know that killing Orochi does pretty much nothing. Zoro killing Orochi wouldn't result in him being seen as a savior of Wano. At best, it would be Zoro saving Hiyori's life...but he's already done that twice. And Denjiro's already done it once.

Like I've maintained since Wano began. If Orochi was to awaken into the Real Yamato No Orochi, which is a massive 8 headed Serpent, which would be capable of causing destruction to the entirety of the Country, then it wouldn't be bad at all.

Zoro slaying a gigantic 8 headed Serpent to save Wano would be far more than just mimicking Ryuma's legend, it'd be surpassing it.

That's what I would want to see. Not Zoro beheading some pitiful tiny mockery of the Yamato No Orochi, that Orochi is, in his current state.

I've said it so many times, but people still think I'm talking about Orochi as he is, and not Orochi as what he could be due to his Devil Fruit. It'd be such a waste of a Mythical Zoan fruit if nothing comes about it.

 

[Minatoze Narutomaki]

This is not a thread to debate whether ZKK will happen or not.

Zoro will definitely have 3 blackened blades by EOS. Most people who believe in ZKK (including me) believe that Enma will turn black after it, with Zoro fulfilling the sword's will. It's pretty obvious that Wado will be his last sword to blacken which will happen after Zoro beats Mihawk and becomes WSS. A lot of people speculate that Sandai (or Nidai) will go black after beating the bald Gorosei who likely wields Shodai Kitetsu, sometime between the end of Wano and the Mihawk fight.

To those who don't believe in ZKK, under what circumstances do you think Enma will go black? In my opinion, it would be pretty underwhelming for it go black in any arc other than Wano considering Enma will never again have the narrative relevance that it currently does.

we don't even know how it blackens, Roger/Rayleigh/Shanks/WB/Oden didn't do it after killing all kind of monsters... so yeah it will happen with somekind of stupid reasoning behind it, he needs to do something others haven't... maybe Zoro needs to do seppuku with it like at the beginning of wano it was indicated, maybe he needs to kill a friend with it, maybe it needs somekind of special DF's help for turning black, maybe he needs to get cursed by someone/something

 

[Nestor]

Like I've maintained since Wano began. If Orochi was to awaken into the Real Yamato No Orochi, which is a massive 8 headed Serpent, which would be capable of causing destruction to the entirety of the Country, then it wouldn't be bad at all.

Zoro slaying a gigantic 8 headed Serpent to save Wano would be far more than just mimicking Ryuma's legend, it'd be surpassing it.

That's what I would want to see. Not Zoro beheading some pitiful tiny mockery of the Yamato No Orochi, that Orochi is, in his current state.

I've said it so many times, but people still think I'm talking about Orochi as he is, and not Orochi as what he could be due to his Devil Fruit. It'd be such a waste of a Mythical Zoan fruit if nothing comes about it.

If Orochi awakens and Zoro deals with him, who will fight Kaido in his awakened form? :shame:

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

So was Luffy, right before he awakened.

But Kaido vs luffy is over right? Like how would Oda justify Orochi waking up from a beheading but Kaido cannot wake up from a punching

 

[nik87]

Four long years of mental gymnastics to avoid the inevitable... :saden:

 

[style]

Like I've maintained since Wano began. If Orochi was to awaken into the Real Yamato No Orochi, which is a massive 8 headed Serpent, which would be capable of causing destruction to the entirety of the Country, then it wouldn't be bad at all.
Zoro slaying a gigantic 8 headed Serpent to save Wano would be far more than just mimicking Ryuma's legend, it'd be surpassing it.
That's what I would want to see. Not Zoro beheading some pitiful tiny mockery of the Yamato No Orochi, that Orochi is, in his current state.
I've said it so many times, but people still think I'm talking about Orochi as he is, and not Orochi as what he could be due to his Devil Fruit. It'd be such a waste of a Mythical Zoan fruit if nothing comes about it.

So now it's not a problem anymore to see a sentient being getting beheaded?

As long as it is Orochi is fine I guess, but God forbid us if it is Kaido, right?

I remember distinctly you arguing about how Oda won't let one of the main characters behead Kaido, even if he's a villain.

You only proved that Zoro killing someone was never a problem, Zoro specifically killing Kaido was

 

[JoNdule]

Thinking Zoro getting black blade this arc coz Tenguyama mentioned enma isnt black blade yet is like thinking Sanji should awaken exoskeleton in WCI coz Oda brought up "he was modified fully but didnt bloom yet" (that's what people thought too back then)

Zoro gets black blade next arc vs Shiryu (a swordman)
Same way Sanji unlocks exoskeleton against a Queen (MADS scientist) who has germa powers too.

 

[nik87]

Thinking Zoro getting black blade this arc coz Tenguyama mentioned enma isnt black blade yet is like thinking Sanji should awaken exoskeleton in WCI coz Oda brought up "he was modified fully but didnt bloom yet" (that's what people thought too back then)

Zoro gets black blade next arc vs Shiryu (a swordman)
Same way Sanji unlocks exoskeleton against a Queen (MADS scientist) who has germa powers too.

Zoro isnt killing Kaido.
Zoro isnt getting black blade in Wano.
We have a whole thread about what Zoro is apparently not doing.
He cleared it all.

 

[Finalbeta]

I'm personally betting against Shiryu or Mihawk. I think this feat is more difficult than some happen to conceive.

 

[DonWick]

I think Wado should be last imo

Why should it be last?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Why should it be last?

It’s the sword that’s the most connected to his dream as such it will be the most important sword in that fight like enma is in this arc.

And with the sword growing stronger in order to help Zoro accomplish his dream, it’d be one last gift to Zoro from Kuina to help Zoro achieve both their dreams.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Personally I don't really understand what Zoro awakening a black blade has to do with Zoro killing Kaido.

For one, we don't even know if fluffing a swords will = "awakening a black blade" and secondly what even is Enma's will? Are we certain that Enma's will is to kill Kaido? If so what was is it's will before Kaido came to Wano then? Surely couldn't have been that 20+years ago.
Moreover from what I understand from ZKK, it doesn't really matter how it is done as long as Zoro ends up killing Kaido so as to not take away from Luffy's feat iirc.

So basically the condition to turn Enma black is "killing Kaido". Moreover it doesn't matter how it's done as long as Zoro ends up doing it even if he kills an already defeated Kaido, but isn't that a bit too underwhelming to be the condition for creating a black blade? It'd mean provided u can wield Enma anyone can turn it into a black blade even if it's by getting a cheapshot at Kaido based off the pre-requisites above. "Kill Kaido, doesn't matter even if you didn't really put in any work and 'll become a black blade"

Also why is the condition for turning Enma black conveniently killing Kaido? I'm guessing the logic behind this is so as to get revenge for it's prior wielder but then why not Orochi?

Rather than the above, I think Enma will become a black blade once it has completely acknowledged Zoro as it's master and for this to happen, Zoro will have to have passed Enma's trial or trials. He already passed one in his fight against King but remains to be seen whether that will be the only one or if there'd be more as Zoro and blade haven't really gotten proper focus since then. Could also be that his current fight with death will be the final trial. Anyways, I'm confident Zoro awakens a black blade before the end of this arc ^^

 

[nik87]

So basically the condition to turn Enma back is "killing Kaido". Moreover it doesn't matter how it's done as long as Zoro ends up doing it even if he kills an already defeated Kaido, but isn't that a bit too underwhelming to be the condition for creating a black blade? It'd mean provided u can wield Enma anyone can turn it into a black blade even if it's by getting a cheapshot at Kaido based off the pre-requisites above. "Kill Kaido, doesn't matter even if you didn't really put in any work and 'll become a black blade"

Killing a defeated Kaido is something pushed by Anti-ZKK brigade, in effort to make the most insane feat in the world as cheap as possible. However, they dont realize that even such state cant cheapen the feat because Kaido cant be killed, even when defeated. Anti-ZKK brigade is in a lose-lose situation but once again, pro-ZKK people have never pushed that nonsense.

Getting in a cheap shot on defeated Kaido doesnt do anything, even if you wield Enma.
Kaido cannot be killed, nobody can do it, himself included. Refresh your memory about Kaido's introduction.
Once again, Kaido cannot be killed. Zoro will do the impossible. Something that no other can do.

Are we certain that Enma's will is to kill Kaido? If so what was is it's will before Kaido came to Wano then? Surely couldn't have been that 20+years ago.

You are surely familiar with the concept of inherited will.
While Enma's will was nothing 20+ years ago, it inherited the will from Oden - to kill Kaido. Orochi never mattered, too bad for anti-ZKKs.
Being accepted by a blade making it black blade is nonsense. Anything instead of killing Kaido, right? You cant save Luffy this arc...
I hope I answered all your doubts.

 

[DonWick]

It’s the sword that’s the most connected to his dream as such it will be the most important sword in that fight like enma is in this arc.

And with the sword growing stronger in order to help Zoro accomplish his dream, it’d be one last gift to Zoro from Kuina to help Zoro achieve both their dreams.

I thought of it along the lines of the sword you had the longest would be the first to turn black. That’s if there is some type of correlation with the bond you have with the sword.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Killing a defeated Kaido is something pushed by Anti-ZKK brigade, in effort to make the most insane feat in the world as cheap as possible. However, they dont realize that even such state cant cheapen the feat because Kaido cant be killed, even when defeated. Anti-ZKK brigade is in a lose-lose situation but once again, pro-ZKK people have never pushed that nonsense.

Usually when the debate of ZKK comes up and folks like me criticize it, particularly on the topic of the negative impact it'd have on Luffy's feat, the rebuttal I often see come up for it from the pro-ZKK camp is that at it's essence ZKK isn't necessarily Zoro outright killing Kaido and that it'd be done in a way that won't take away from Luffy's feat but u're saying the opposite lol so then which is it?

Getting in a cheap shot on defeated Kaido doesnt do anything, even if you wield Enma.
Kaido cannot be killed, nobody can do it, himself included. Refresh your memory about Kaido's introduction.
Once again, Kaido cannot be killed. Zoro will do the impossible. Something that no other can do.

According to his portfolio Kaido has only ever been wounded by Oden but we've seen first hand just how infallible that statement is this arc, with errone and their grandmum wounding him left right and center💀. Moreover, According to his portfolio Kaido has also been captured 7 times but then we find out it was coz this mofo was using the Marines as a free Cafeteria so u're argument isn't very convincing. If anything it's becoming increasingly obvious that we shouldn't take those tings at face value.

Also, now we know Kaido is capable of being wounded so logically speaking he can obviously be killed provided u possess the pre-requisite skills to do so (i.e. Oden's Haki or whatever the fck that is supposed to be, Penetration Armament, CoC coating etc.), he isn't immortal or nuffin, so the notion that Kaido cannot be killed doesn't really hold up except of course the statement is referring to him being "so strong" that he's unable to be killed, in which case Zoro killing a Kaido that's already on his last legs isn't the great/unprecedented feat u're propping it up to be.

You are surely familiar with the concept of inherited will.
While Enma's will was nothing 20+ years ago, it inherited the will from Oden - to kill Kaido. Orochi never mattered, too bad for anti-ZKKs.
Being accepted by a blade making it black blade is nonsense. Anything instead of killing Kaido, right? You cant save Luffy this arc...
I hope I answered all your doubts.

So what u're saying in essence is that if Zoro wielded Enma 20+ years ago he'd have been unable to make it a black blade coz Enma didn't have a will back then💀. Moreover you bring up inherited will which is fair but again why is it conveniently Kaido and not Orochi. I mean if you said Kaido & Orochi it'd at least be consistent, but most of y'all at least from understanding don't want nuffin to do with Orochi


It's cuul to want Zoro to kill Kaido, killing the world's strongest creature on paper is hype, fans will fantasize about their favorite characters lol it's what it is but this logic that Enma cannot be turned black without Zoro killing Kaido just feels like propaganda being used to fuel the theory and imo also cheapens the feat of creating a black blade given Zoro doesn't actually beat Kaido this arc. Zoro overcoming all of Enma's difficult trials something no one else has been able to do till now, not even Oden is a million more times hype and more fitting for such a feat imo.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

I thought of it along the lines of the sword you had the longest would be the first to turn black. That’s if there is some type of correlation with the bond you have with the sword.

I think it has nothing to do with the bond but how well the swordsman can understand the will of the blade.

Enma is a very loud spoken sword meanwhile Wado has been very quiet for most of the series as such Zoro can understand enmas will and make it black before Wado

 

[nik87]

Usually when the debate of ZKK comes up and folks like me criticize it, particularly on the topic of the negative impact it'd have on Luffy's feat, the rebuttal I often see come up for it from the pro-ZKK camp is that at it's essence ZKK isn't necessarily Zoro outright killing Kaido and that it'd be done in a way that won't take away from Luffy's feat but u're saying the opposite lol so then which is it?

You heard me the first time, no need to repeat myself.

According to his portfolio Kaido has only ever been wounded by Oden but we've seen first hand just how infallible that statement is this arc, with errone and their grandmum wounding him left right and center💀. Moreover, According to his portfolio Kaido has also been captured 7 times but then we find out it was coz this mofo was using the Marines as a free Cafeteria so u're argument isn't very convincing. If anything it's becoming increasingly obvious that we shouldn't take those tings at face value.

Also, now we know Kaido is capable of being wounded so logically speaking he can obviously be killed provided u possess the pre-requisite skills to do so (i.e. Oden's Haki or whatever the fck that is supposed to be, Penetration Armament, CoC coating etc.), he isn't immortal or nuffin, so the notion that Kaido cannot be killed doesn't really hold up except of course the statement is referring to him being "so strong" that he's unable to be killed, in which case Zoro killing a Kaido that's already on his last legs isn't the great/unprecedented feat u're propping it up to be.

You are completely confused, jumping all over the place...
Kaido has been wounded many times, but only 1 time it left a scar. Two times thanks to Mosshead.
No, Kaido wasnt captured 7 times, he was defeated 7 times. He was captured 18 times, afaik. Get your facts straight.
He was sentenced to execution 40 times and none of his buffets on Marine ships was an execution.
The only thing that's not convincing is your nonsense.

No, Kaido can not be killed, nothing has managed to come even close, ever.
You are literally arguing against the manga which said that Kaido couldnt be killed which included himself.
Dont worry, Kaido wont be at his last legs when Zoro kills him, he will be at his strongest, in Awakened state.

So what u're saying in essence is that if Zoro wielded Enma 20+ years ago he'd have been unable to make it a black blade coz Enma didn't have a will back then💀. Moreover you bring up inherited will which is fair but again why is it conveniently Kaido and not Orochi. I mean if you said Kaido & Orochi it'd at least be consistent, but most of y'all at least from understanding don't want nuffin to do with Orochi


It's cuul to want Zoro to kill Kaido, killing the world's strongest creature on paper is hype, fans will fantasize about their favorite characters lol it's what it is but this logic that Enma cannot be turned black without Zoro killing Kaido just feels like propaganda being used to fuel the theory and imo also cheapens the feat of creating a black blade given Zoro doesn't actually beat Kaido this arc. Zoro overcoming all of Enma's difficult trials something no one else has been able to do till now, not even Oden is a million more times hype and more fitting for such a feat imo.

Anti-ZKK brigade has to understand that their favorite trump card Orochi never mattered.
Zoro killing Kaido is the greatest feat in One Piece, on paper or not, there is no way around it.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

So now it's not a problem anymore to see a sentient being getting beheaded?

As long as it is Orochi is fine I guess, but God forbid us if it is Kaido, right?

I remember distinctly you arguing about how Oda won't let one of the main characters behead Kaido, even if he's a villain.

You only proved that Zoro killing someone was never a problem, Zoro specifically killing Kaido was

It's never been a problem, as long as Orochi can regenerate from being decapitated and not actually die.

I've addressed this 1000 times in the past already as well.

If Orochi can't, and would end up dead, then I'd have a problem with it.

If Zoro could decapitate Kaido, and Kaido not actually die, I'd have no issuses with Zoro beheading him over the Flower Capital as long as the narrative was pushed in that direction.

 

[Finalbeta]

I can't wait any longer honestly. But I fear ZKK shall prove easier than forging the black blade unironically.

 

[Marco]

Thinking Zoro getting black blade this arc coz Tenguyama mentioned enma isnt black blade yet is like thinking Sanji should awaken exoskeleton in WCI coz Oda brought up "he was modified fully but didnt bloom yet" (that's what people thought too back then)

Zoro gets black blade next arc vs Shiryu (a swordman)
Same way Sanji unlocks exoskeleton against a Queen (MADS scientist) who has germa powers too.

And next arc Sanji unlocks Adv CoC and fights 2 Emperors & a YC1