His war arc showings didn't necessarily help him in beating kinkaku though. I'd say his most impressive war arc showing was tagging brain dead Juubito, but he had to sacrifice his body for that, something he couldn't have done if alive. After that, his tag was what allowed Kishi to use Tobirama as a support role in the battle, which is different to a 1 on 1. I'd say he certainly had the reaction speed to dodge or counter Kinkaku's attacks, but he may not have been able to go through V2 shroud, which is also a problem he could have with A
Versus Battle Tobirama vs Ay
- Thread starter Jiihad
- Start date
Minato's shunshin shits all over Tobirama's; Their FTG speed is same but Minato's FTG is more advanced .
Character statements barely hold any relavance in Naruto fights. As a matter of fact, Itachi easily defeated Orochimaru who's implied to be just as strong if not stronger than Jiraiya.
Character statements barely hold any relavance in Naruto fights. As a matter of fact, Itachi easily defeated Orochimaru who's implied to be just as strong if not stronger than Jiraiya.
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I agree that Itachi is a level above Orochimaru, but i think it's implied the Orochimaru vs Itachi battle went beyond the genjutsu scene since pain release from genjutsu, with Itachi recognizing the feeling of Yamata no Orochi while Orochimaru had Intel on amaterasu. Orochimaru was also portrayed stronger than Hebi Sasuke with his arms available, a Hebi Sasuke who is stronger than 3tomoe Itachi, so I think Itachi would need his MS to beat him, which places Orochimaru somewhere in the mid difficulty range
As for the Sannins, they were only portrayed as equals in base, with them having respective specialities beyond that, Tsunade with her ultimate medic(Byakugo), Orochimaru with his Edo tensei kinjutsu, and Jiraya with his sennin mode
So if we count Edo tensei, Orochimaru would stack tiers higher than his individual self. On his own however, he is a level below SM Jiraya, which is further implied in Jiraya's battle introduction against Pain when he said he ascended from the great 3 to Hermit Sage, and later on by Kabuto himself when he said, Orochimaru's body couldn't tolerate sage mode, and judging by the parallels created between SM and MS(Hashirama/Madara, Naruto/Sasuke, Jiraya/Itachi, Kabuto/Itachi/Sasuke), and Itachi's reaction when he realized Kabuto learnt Sage Mode, it's likely the reason why he wanted to avoid Jiraya in part1. His performance against Pain(tier higher than Itachi) also further suggest this
So overall I think Itachi and SM Jiraya are in the same tier, with Orochimaru a tier below alongside Base Jiraya
As for the Sannins, they were only portrayed as equals in base, with them having respective specialities beyond that, Tsunade with her ultimate medic(Byakugo), Orochimaru with his Edo tensei kinjutsu, and Jiraya with his sennin mode
So if we count Edo tensei, Orochimaru would stack tiers higher than his individual self. On his own however, he is a level below SM Jiraya, which is further implied in Jiraya's battle introduction against Pain when he said he ascended from the great 3 to Hermit Sage, and later on by Kabuto himself when he said, Orochimaru's body couldn't tolerate sage mode, and judging by the parallels created between SM and MS(Hashirama/Madara, Naruto/Sasuke, Jiraya/Itachi, Kabuto/Itachi/Sasuke), and Itachi's reaction when he realized Kabuto learnt Sage Mode, it's likely the reason why he wanted to avoid Jiraya in part1. His performance against Pain(tier higher than Itachi) also further suggest this
So overall I think Itachi and SM Jiraya are in the same tier, with Orochimaru a tier below alongside Base Jiraya
Finally somebody who understands how shit actually works in Naruto
And Ay couldnt handle the most basic use of FTG which Tobirama was shown to be good enough at to confront Juubito.
For comparison, Ay, with a boost by Ohnoki's lightening, was still useless against Edo Madara.
Juubito >> Edo Madara
There's completely different levels to this.
Yes they do. Itachi didn't want to fight SM Jiraiya. SM Jiraiya > Kisame etc. I swear people only think of base Jiraiya and nothing else. Still dont know how Kisame is relevant to this thread when it's pretty obvious Ay is on the same kind of level and Tobirama shits on them both. It was also never stated that Orochimaru > Jiraiya either btw. So people please stop clinging to that straw. It was stated by Ebisu that Jiraiya can stop/defeat Orochimaru. It was admitted by Jiraiya that when he is drugged up he couldn't fight Orochimaru and defeat him. These statements are both completely true, since we know Jiraiya couldn't wield his chakra correctly in the latter instance, and Orochimaru was too weak to learn SM, whereas Jiraiya almost mastered it and at a young age too.
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And Ay couldnt handle the most basic use of FTG which Tobirama was shown to be good enough at to confront Juubito.
For comparison, Ay, with a boost by Ohnoki's lightening, was still useless against Edo Madara.
Juubito >> Edo Madara
There's completely different levels to this.
Yes they do. Itachi didn't want to fight SM Jiraiya. SM Jiraiya > Kisame etc. I swear people only think of base Jiraiya and nothing else. Still dont know how Kisame is relevant to this thread when it's pretty obvious Ay is on the same kind of level and Tobirama shits on them both. It was also never stated that Orochimaru > Jiraiya either btw. So people please stop clinging to that straw. It was stated by Ebisu that Jiraiya can stop/defeat Orochimaru. It was admitted by Jiraiya that when he is drugged up he couldn't fight Orochimaru and defeat him. These statements are both completely true, since we know Jiraiya couldn't wield his chakra correctly in the latter instance, and Orochimaru was too weak to learn SM, whereas Jiraiya almost mastered it and at a young age too.
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Tobirama said Minato has better shunshin than him. I acknowledged that in the post you replied to.
I was asking what makes you say that Minato's shunshin shits on Tobirama's. When both Minato and Tobirama used shunshin on Hiruzen and Hashirama, both were nearly identical. Using feats isn't fair to Tobirama at all, due to Minato being put in various circumstances that required Shunshin, and Tobirama doesn't have a single panel in the manga at full power lol.
I was asking what makes you say that Minato's shunshin shits on Tobirama's. When both Minato and Tobirama used shunshin on Hiruzen and Hashirama, both were nearly identical. Using feats isn't fair to Tobirama at all, due to Minato being put in various circumstances that required Shunshin, and Tobirama doesn't have a single panel in the manga at full power lol.
Minato left the previous Hokage in dust and reached the battle field much earlier! He had enough time to mark the area around Juubi before they arrive. If it isn't being far superior, I am not sure what it is! I am not even factoring in the time it took to place the kunai marking at the sea which he used to redirect Juubidama.
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That logic doesn't fly. Unless you want to claim Old Hiruzen > Tobirama and Hashirama in speed, since he arrived before the brothers?
Minato simply went ahead of the others, that's all.
For sure, based on feats that's all he needs. The lightning armor might be hard to get past, since he hasnt shown anything that can bypass it (not counting the Edo).
Minato simply went ahead of the others, that's all.
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For sure, based on feats that's all he needs. The lightning armor might be hard to get past, since he hasnt shown anything that can bypass it (not counting the Edo).
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He did more than keep up (if we're going by your logic that they were racing each other)
Minato came first
Hiruzen came second
Tobirama came third
Hashirama came fourth
You're using the above to say Minato shits on Tobiramain in shunshin. Even though the time they used Shunshin right next to each other there wasnt a huge difference, lol. The above logic also says old Hiruzen is faster than the brothers, which is not possible.
Tobirama admit Minato's shunshin is better = Minato > Tobirama in shunshin. I am still confused as to where you got Minato's shunshin shits in Tobirama from that statement.
Minato came first
Hiruzen came second
Tobirama came third
Hashirama came fourth
You're using the above to say Minato shits on Tobiramain in shunshin. Even though the time they used Shunshin right next to each other there wasnt a huge difference, lol. The above logic also says old Hiruzen is faster than the brothers, which is not possible.
Tobirama admit Minato's shunshin is better = Minato > Tobirama in shunshin. I am still confused as to where you got Minato's shunshin shits in Tobirama from that statement.
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Tobirama has by hype stronger Suiton than Kisame. This includes jutsu far superior to Gengetsu's water gun (which made Gaara's sand, in a fucking desert, look like pussy shit), Kisame's thousand feeding sharks or that jutsu he used vs 6th gate Gai
Tobirama also has that Jutsu of INFINITE summoning and exploding tags - like, think Konan vs Obito, but rather than prep time, Tobirama can literally trigger one jutsu and it will have the same effect. That also totally destroys not only Ays armour, but probably just about every defence that ever existed aside from maybe perfect Susano'o and Itachi's due to Yata Mirror.
Ignoring this, Tobirama has Edo Tensei, so he has whole other characters to summon - we dont know who he could summon for this fight though
PLUS he has a mastery of Genjutsu. Ays only way to avoid Tobirama's sound based Genjutsu is to try and overpower the guy in terms of chakra surges. Not going to lie, but there's very few people who have more powerful chakra than the second strongest known Senju. Despite Ay being incredible in this regard, he still is not on the same level in this respect either
Tobirama clearly has a number of ways to respond to Ays armour, plus we also have the fact that Tobirama is a genius and Ay is not, so even if Ays armour was 10x as strong as it is, Tobirama would devise a plan. Tobirama is simply ridiculous. No two ways about it. I'm not kidding when I say he was probably on the same tier as Hashirama and Madara if we ignore SM and Rinnegan
Tobirama also has that Jutsu of INFINITE summoning and exploding tags - like, think Konan vs Obito, but rather than prep time, Tobirama can literally trigger one jutsu and it will have the same effect. That also totally destroys not only Ays armour, but probably just about every defence that ever existed aside from maybe perfect Susano'o and Itachi's due to Yata Mirror.
Ignoring this, Tobirama has Edo Tensei, so he has whole other characters to summon - we dont know who he could summon for this fight though
PLUS he has a mastery of Genjutsu. Ays only way to avoid Tobirama's sound based Genjutsu is to try and overpower the guy in terms of chakra surges. Not going to lie, but there's very few people who have more powerful chakra than the second strongest known Senju. Despite Ay being incredible in this regard, he still is not on the same level in this respect either
Tobirama clearly has a number of ways to respond to Ays armour, plus we also have the fact that Tobirama is a genius and Ay is not, so even if Ays armour was 10x as strong as it is, Tobirama would devise a plan. Tobirama is simply ridiculous. No two ways about it. I'm not kidding when I say he was probably on the same tier as Hashirama and Madara if we ignore SM and Rinnegan
Actually no he doesn't. His only suiton hype was about using water attacks without water source, something many ninjas could do in the war arc. Kisame has better suiton feats like @TheAncientCenturion said
Sure, but he needed Hashirama to bind his enemy before launching the jutsu, because it's possible to escape the range. Ay could dodge Juugo's laser at point blank range, he could also move faster than Amaterasu. So i think he has sufficient reaction and movement speed to dodge the explosive tags
He doesn't have genjutsu feat or hype. It was only anime related. The genjutsu that anime gave to Tobirama was given to Hashirama in the manga(bringer of darkness). As for the chakra level difference, we have no way of knowing really. Tsunade is also a Senju, but she doesn't have anywhere near as much chakra as A, whose reserves were compared to that of a Biju
Sure, but he needed Hashirama to bind his enemy before launching the jutsu, because it's possible to escape the range. Ay could dodge Juugo's laser at point blank range, he could also move faster than Amaterasu. So i think he has sufficient reaction and movement speed to dodge the explosive tags
He doesn't have genjutsu feat or hype. It was only anime related. The genjutsu that anime gave to Tobirama was given to Hashirama in the manga(bringer of darkness). As for the chakra level difference, we have no way of knowing really. Tsunade is also a Senju, but she doesn't have anywhere near as much chakra as A, whose reserves were compared to that of a Biju
He was hyped up as the greatest Suiton user that ever lived
Are we seriously using Juugo, who is about as strong as most Jonin, as a point for comparison with one of the greatest Shinobi that ever lived? Nice. Please bare in mind the enemy was Juubito. Obviously Tobirama need not require help from Hashirama if he's dealing with somebody who was an ant before Madara - somebody who Tobirama fought fairly often.
The anime portrayed the Genjutsu as Hashirama, the Manga shows it was Tobirama.
We do, because of the reactions from Taka to both
Ay raises his chakra for Liger Bomb: Sasuke's suprised and slightly intimidated, but still confident in his defense
Tobirama raises one finger and scowls, clearly not even putting much effort into it: Sasuke (who by this point has E fucking MS) SHITS HIMSELF
I dont care what you say from this point on. Tobirama's chakra was so powerful that it also made Hiruzen and Minato (who were EDOs) shit themselves too. This is no point for comparison, you're right, because Tobirama is a different level. He's the most underrated character and it's purely because his brother had the spotlight.
There's a difference between a pretty strong Senju and the man who oneshot Izuna when he was still young, fought well against Juubito and made an EMS user shit themselves. It is insulting to even suggest Tsunade is a good comparison too.
You're telling me it's even debatable given all the above and the fact that:
1. Tobirama can use FTG, which, on its own, fodderised Ay - this is auto low diff no questions asked
2. He has a vast intellectual advantage
3. He is a sensor type, the greatest sensor type to ever live (sensing people in different countries instantly) so he also has completely eliminated the element of surprise etc.
4. He has access to Edo Tensei
5. He can use all five Chakra Natures - Suiton is the only one we've even talked about, but being capable of earth style also gives him the Nature advantage in this fight
6. He killed Izuna with one strike, using only taijutsu and his dagger - Izuna, by the way at the time was Madara's equal
7. According to Danzo (perhaps the most well informed person in the NV), Tobirama was the strongest man alive as second hokage. This puts him above Muu, Gengetsu, Ays dad (way stronger than Ay - as stated many times by many hidden cloud Jonin) - this also is an auto low diff proof (ch 481)
8. During his life time, he was hailed as the fastest Shinobi - meaning he is faster than Ays dad who, must I repeat myself, was faster than Ay (ch 639, 661)
9. He has enough chakra to teleport two Bijuu level shinobi at one time, which is another point to prove his Chakra reserves are ridiculous
10. He uses Sword of the Thunder God, which literally pierces or at least matches lightning armour - which pretty much counters the only thing Ay has going for him and is the entirety of his strength and fighting style
Like, I'm sorry, but any opinions to the contrary of this is just denial, irrational and completely retarded. Don't @ me.
Are we seriously using Juugo, who is about as strong as most Jonin, as a point for comparison with one of the greatest Shinobi that ever lived? Nice. Please bare in mind the enemy was Juubito. Obviously Tobirama need not require help from Hashirama if he's dealing with somebody who was an ant before Madara - somebody who Tobirama fought fairly often.
The anime portrayed the Genjutsu as Hashirama, the Manga shows it was Tobirama.
We do, because of the reactions from Taka to both
Ay raises his chakra for Liger Bomb: Sasuke's suprised and slightly intimidated, but still confident in his defense
Tobirama raises one finger and scowls, clearly not even putting much effort into it: Sasuke (who by this point has E fucking MS) SHITS HIMSELF
I dont care what you say from this point on. Tobirama's chakra was so powerful that it also made Hiruzen and Minato (who were EDOs) shit themselves too. This is no point for comparison, you're right, because Tobirama is a different level. He's the most underrated character and it's purely because his brother had the spotlight.
There's a difference between a pretty strong Senju and the man who oneshot Izuna when he was still young, fought well against Juubito and made an EMS user shit themselves. It is insulting to even suggest Tsunade is a good comparison too.
You're telling me it's even debatable given all the above and the fact that:
1. Tobirama can use FTG, which, on its own, fodderised Ay - this is auto low diff no questions asked
2. He has a vast intellectual advantage
3. He is a sensor type, the greatest sensor type to ever live (sensing people in different countries instantly) so he also has completely eliminated the element of surprise etc.
4. He has access to Edo Tensei
5. He can use all five Chakra Natures - Suiton is the only one we've even talked about, but being capable of earth style also gives him the Nature advantage in this fight
6. He killed Izuna with one strike, using only taijutsu and his dagger - Izuna, by the way at the time was Madara's equal
7. According to Danzo (perhaps the most well informed person in the NV), Tobirama was the strongest man alive as second hokage. This puts him above Muu, Gengetsu, Ays dad (way stronger than Ay - as stated many times by many hidden cloud Jonin) - this also is an auto low diff proof (ch 481)
8. During his life time, he was hailed as the fastest Shinobi - meaning he is faster than Ays dad who, must I repeat myself, was faster than Ay (ch 639, 661)
9. He has enough chakra to teleport two Bijuu level shinobi at one time, which is another point to prove his Chakra reserves are ridiculous
10. He uses Sword of the Thunder God, which literally pierces or at least matches lightning armour - which pretty much counters the only thing Ay has going for him and is the entirety of his strength and fighting style
Like, I'm sorry, but any opinions to the contrary of this is just denial, irrational and completely retarded. Don't @ me.
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@TheAncientCenturion LMAO, he bet not
Nah i think Tobirama wins, but not easily(mid diff or so), but i'm trying to make this thread entertaining by seeing counter-arguments since it was one-sided thus far lol.
Manga scan for this
I'm not comparing the opponents, i'm comparing the jutsu speed. Juugo's explosion cast faster than explosive tags. Same goes for Amaterasu, which ignites instantaneously and A's movement speed could dodge it, making me believe he could dodge the explosive tags as well
Nah as mentioned it was Hashirama in the manga
You're confusing with anime
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Manga scan for this
I'm not comparing the opponents, i'm comparing the jutsu speed. Juugo's explosion cast faster than explosive tags. Same goes for Amaterasu, which ignites instantaneously and A's movement speed could dodge it, making me believe he could dodge the explosive tags as well
Nah as mentioned it was Hashirama in the manga
You're confusing with anime
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Nah i think Tobirama wins, but not easily(mid diff or so), but i'm trying to make this thread entertaining by seeing counter-arguments since it was one-sided thus far lol.
Manga scan for this
I'm not comparing the opponents, i'm comparing the jutsu speed. Juugo's explosion cast faster than explosive tags. Same goes for Amaterasu, which ignites instantaneously and A's movement speed could dodge it, making me believe he could dodge the explosive tags as well
Nah as mentioned it was Hashirama in the manga
You're confusing with anime
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Manga scan for this
I'm not comparing the opponents, i'm comparing the jutsu speed. Juugo's explosion cast faster than explosive tags. Same goes for Amaterasu, which ignites instantaneously and A's movement speed could dodge it, making me believe he could dodge the explosive tags as well
Nah as mentioned it was Hashirama in the manga
You're confusing with anime