Volume 110 - Discussion Thread (November 1st, 2024)

[Garp the Fist]

Kizaru's unclear justice is so simple. He tries to do his job without any moral or emotional attachment, unlike the other Admirals who operates on their morals. Egghead was very personal for Kizaru, but he still tried to do his job because to him, emotions shouldn't be a factor when you're given orders. Fuji and Kuzan would've helped Vegapunk escape outright. Akainu and GB would be emotionally invested in making sure Vegapunk dies. Kizaru wanted Vegapunk to live, but his duty meant he had to kill him.

Feeding Luffy gave Kizaru a chance to save Vegapunk and the others without outright disobeying his orders. Kuma showed up instead, and made saving everyone impossible hence Kizaru's "it's over isn't it."

Kizaru now had no choice to kill his friends again, and even tried mercy killing Bonney and Kuma so that it wouldn't be painful. He even closed his eyes one time.

Look, if you are trying to make the argument that Kizaru is going for mercy kills for his friends and attempted to self-justify feeding Luffy as not outright disobeying orders, you are not going to do much to convince me he isn’t an incoherent mess of a character.

If the argument is that the incoherence is what makes him a good character, again, I am not buying it.

The scene with Akainu is the killer. We cannot have both this

And then also have the same character having tried not to do his job and avoid his orders by aiding the enemy in the hope that it allows his friends to escape. It just doesn’t work. Oda cannot sell to me that Kizaru can have that reaction if he did not do everything in his power to fulfil his orders, despite the personal cost to himself.

Kizaru’s flip-flopping so hard that it genuinely does make it seem like WSG gave him brain damage.

 

[ConquistadoR]

Kizaru's unclear justice is so simple. He tries to do his job without any moral or emotional attachment, unlike the other Admirals who operates on their morals. Egghead was very personal for Kizaru, but he still tried to do his job because to him, emotions shouldn't be a factor when you're given orders. Fuji and Kuzan would've helped Vegapunk escape outright. Akainu and GB would be emotionally invested in making sure Vegapunk dies. Kizaru wanted Vegapunk to live, but his duty meant he had to kill him.

Feeding Luffy gave Kizaru a chance to save Vegapunk and the others without outright disobeying his orders. Kuma showed up instead, and made saving everyone impossible hence Kizaru's "it's over isn't it."

Kizaru now had no choice to kill his friends again, and even tried mercy killing Bonney and Kuma so that it wouldn't be painful. He even closed his eyes one time.

Do you guys not realize what this makes Kizaru's storyline sound like?

(1) Fights Luffy (anti-SHs)
(2) Feeds Luffy trusting him to help his friends (pro-SHs)
(3) Gets up first, tries to kill his friends multiple times, stopped by Bonney commanding the Pacifistas, Sanji, Luffy, all outside of his control (anti-SHs)
(4) Kills Vegapunk, gets thrown to the ship (anti-SHs)
(5) Stays on the ship despite not being out of juice (pro-SHs)
(6) Is angry at Akainu for calling out his sloppiness, as if he didnt do exactly that.

Before this reveal, (2) wasnt there and his character flowed well, he was consistently against the SHs while still being conflicted. And you can rationalize - (a) him staying back on the ship as him being emotionally hurt by what he did to his friend and (b) his anger at Akainu as him being outraged at the suggestion considering that he still did his job and killed VP.

With (2) confirmed now, Kizaru just looks like a very indecisive person, who didnt have the guts to neither oppose his orders nor follow through with it.
The whole "anti-Garp" Marine storyline where Kizaru chooses the orders over his friends and is conflicted about his decision, is completely dead.

 

[L57]

The seraphims got haki

 

[Garp the Fist]

Do you guys not realize what this makes Kizaru's storyline sound like?

(1) Fights Luffy (anti-SHs)
(2) Feeds Luffy trusting him to help his friends (pro-SHs)
(3) Gets up first, tries to kill his friends multiple times, stopped by Bonney commanding the Pacifistas, Sanji, Luffy, all outside of his control (anti-SHs)
(4) Kills Vegapunk, gets thrown to the ship (anti-SHs)
(5) Stays on the ship despite not being out of juice (pro-SHs)
(6) Is angry at Akainu for calling out his sloppiness, as if he didnt do exactly that.

Before this reveal, (2) wasnt there and his character flowed well, he was consistently against the SHs while still being conflicted. And you can rationalize - (a) him staying back on the ship as him being emotionally hurt by what he did to his friend and (b) his anger at Akainu as him being outraged at the suggestion considering that he still did his job and killed his VP.

With (2) confirmed now, Kizaru just looks like a very indecisive person, who didnt have the guts to neither oppose his orders nor follow through with it.
The whole "anti-Garp" Marine storyline where Kizaru chooses the orders over his friends and is conflicted about his decision, is completely dead.

Also comes across as a poor mans Kuzan on Ohara.

Cause there’s nothing on a par with Kuzan’s “justice can drive you mad” speech to Robin from Kizaru. Now that was a man who I bought being wildly conflicted by what he was ordered to do.

 

[ZenZu]

It’s not overcomplicating anything, his actions makes zero sense because you can point to multiple occasions where Kizaru directly endangers all his friends lives without any guarantee that the Strawhats would save them.

That's the point, he was still going to have to follow through, he needed some resistance to give an excuse for failure.

We can compare it to Garp in Marineford in that it would be really fucking stupid if after Garp took his obvious ”I can’t actually do this so am going to sandbag to Luffy” dive, he then... killed Ace anyway and put Luffy in literal mortal danger several times afterwards, relying on the Whitebeard Pirates to save him at the last minute.

Then complained about Sengoku daring to point out that he half assed things.

Not exactly, it would be more comparable if Garp killed Ace, but then allowed Luffy to punch him in the face, and leave him incapacitated for the rest of it, while escaping. Then have Sengoku call him out for lack of commitment. Yea, Garp would erupt. At the end of the day Kizaru still stabbed his boy in the back.

Kizaru’s story was compelling because it was coming across as the anti Garp in that he chose his orders rather than his loved ones, while Garp took the alternative approach. Bad thing to do, but the determination to do it can be respected.

Garp chose neither duty or family, he just froze up. Kizaru still followed orders at a surface level. While putting up barriers for himself to do as bad a job of it as possible.

It's perfect for Unclear Justice. Kizaru does not want to directly revolt against the WG, he just didn't want to eradicate everyone on that island like he could if not met with any proper resistance.

I think Kizaru's mind was already made up when it comes to Stella. Stella was cooked the minute Kizaru entered the island, but the others didn't need to be collateral. Once Kizaru realized everyone else, especially Bonney was also in danger that's probably when he decided it is in his best interest to help Luffy.

He spelled it out for us himself.

He didn't want to be known as a traitor. He had his cake and ate it too. He remains "loyal" to the WG but found a way to help his friends too. There's nothing odd about it.

 

[Dragon777]

Kizaru is a man who did all he could to save his friend, even if he knew was "wrong", with the limit of not going against his mission under the eyes of others.

That's It. Simple.

 

[ConquistadoR]

> Feeds Luffy to save his friends.
> Luffy isnt up yet, so decides to (mercy) kill them.
> Luffy gets up and stops him at the third attempt.
> Kills Punk anyway, despite feeding Luffy for the sole reason of saving his friends.

 

[SakazOuki]

> Feeds Luffy to save his friends.
> Luffy isnt up yet, so decides to (mercy) kill them.
> Luffy gets up and stops him at the third attempt.
> Kills Punk anyway, despite feeding Luffy for the sole reason of saving his friends.

Kuma punching Saturn is what got Kizaru in the mood, that’s where he says ”it’s over” and goes for the kill

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

people are surprised that a post time skip OP character is acting inconsistent? lmaoooooo

 

[ConquistadoR]

Kuma punching Saturn is what got Kizaru in the mood, that’s where he says ”it’s over” and goes for the kill

He goes for the kill and is stopped by Luffy the person he fed to save them.
Then he ended up killing Vegapunk, and all cuz Kuma & SHs attacking Saturn is a crime Kizaru wont tolerate?

 

[Dragon777]

> Feeds Luffy to save his friends.
> Luffy isnt up yet, so decides to (mercy) kill them.
> Luffy gets up and stops him at the third attempt.
> Kills Punk anyway, despite feeding Luffy for the sole reason of saving his friends.

Vega was already dying, that's the thing.

 

[SakazOuki]

He goes for the kill and is stopped by Luffy the person he fed to save them.
Then he ended up killing Vegapunk, and all cuz Kuma & SHs attacking Saturn is a crime Kizaru wont tolerate?

He feeds Luffy and acts like he can’t move to give them a chance to escape, but then his saint boss gets smacked in the face and sent flying, Kizaru had to save face as an Admiral, in the end he put duty over friendship. So if Kuma didn’t show up he might‘ve not made an attempt at Vegapunk’s life
That‘s what I think at least we can’t know for sure

 

[ConquistadoR]

Vega was already dying, that's the thing.

Irrelevant, no?
Why would he kill Vega bcs he was already dying when he fed Luffy so that Vega & the rest could escape?

 

[Rurushu]

Like a good boy does after getting spanked

You're really lost it bro
Take the L and move on instead of this cope spam

 

[ThunderSupernova]

The worst thing of all is that Oda COULDN'T FIND A SINGLE PANEL TO CONFIRM THIS IN THE MANGA

I know it was clear but that's an important plot point, it can't just be "clear", it must be confirmed
It can't be stated in SBS, which many readers/viewers don't even know

But yeah tell me there's wasn't enough space in the manga... come on this is so bad

 

[Dragon777]

Irrelevant, no?
Why would he kill Vega bcs he was already dying when he fed Luffy so that Vega & the rest could escape?

Because since he was already dying there was no point in going against his mission any longer, and in fact he maybe wanted to put and end to his (Vegapunk's) suffering.

He fed Luffy hoping that Vega would survive. It didn't happen, unfortunately.

Not to mention, Kizaru knew what what he was doing was wrong.

 

[ZenZu]

I think Kizaru already came to terms with killing Stella, he had enough time to think about it and he was already headed to the island before Luffy was a thing.

What I think happened was he was feeding Luffy to simply spare as many lives as possible. Once Saturn got punched square in the face, there is a limit to how much he can disrespect his Admiral position.

This is completely onbrand with Kizaru. Though once Stella was killed, Kizaru was overcome with emotion and used Luffy as an out.

 

[ConquistadoR]

But yeah tell me there's wasn't enough space in the manga... come on this is so bad

How many pages were wasted showing irrelevant background character reactions to the overhyped Vegapunk speech? This is pathetic lol.

Because since he was already dying there was no point in going against his mission any longer, and in fact he maybe wanted to put and end to his (Vegapunk's) suffering.

He fed Luffy hoping that Vega would survive. It didn't happen, unfortunately.

Not to mention, Kizaru knew what what he was doing was wrong.

Maybe Oda just had Kizaru kill Vegapunk because he needed to die for the big grand speech to begin.

 

[KingOnizam]

Outright feeding Luffy should be equivalent to severe treason, much worse than simply staying down and letting Saturn handle the SHs by himself, tbh.

 

[Uncle Van]

Look, if you are trying to make the argument that Kizaru is going for mercy kills for his friends and attempted to self-justify feeding Luffy as not outright disobeying orders, you are not going to do much to convince me he isn’t an incoherent mess of a character.

If the argument is that the incoherence is what makes him a good character, again, I am not buying it.

The scene with Akainu is the killer. We cannot have both this

And then also have the same character having tried not to do his job and avoid his orders by aiding the enemy in the hope that it allows his friends to escape. It just doesn’t work. Oda cannot sell to me that Kizaru can have that reaction if he did not do everything in his power to fulfil his orders, despite the personal cost to himself.

Kizaru’s flip-flopping so hard that it genuinely does make it seem like WSG gave him brain damage.

Garp talks about doing what he wants and how important family is, but sat there at MF watching Luffy and Ace get killed. Is that inconsistent? No because Garp was struggling between his duty and his family and hesitate. In the end he choose neither.

Kizaru choose his duty over his friends, but he still cared. He wanted them to live, but his duty comes first. Luffy gave him a chance to save them without becoming a traitor and it failed. It's so simple.