Controversial Wano is the same length as DBZ from start to Cell Saga.

[moreha9685]

The topic really caught my interest, so I looked a little into it. Here's the main story beats visualized and numbered equally.
CH.1-------Radditz arrives on Earth.------Naruto returns to the Leaf after 2 years.------Luffy wakes up in Wano.
CH.2-------
CH.3-------
CH.4-------
CH.5-------
CH.6-------
CH.7-------
CH.8-------
CH.9-------
CH.10------Radditz & Goku die; 2 Saiyans are hyped to attack Earth in the future.------Team Kakashi is en route to save Gaara.------Kinemon & Co. reveal to have traveled 20 years into the future.
CH.11------
CH.12------
CH.13------
CH.14------
CH.15------
CH.16------
CH.17------
CH.18------
CH.19------Vegeta & Nappa land on Earth.------Team Kakashi breaks into the Akatsuki base.------Orochi is introduced.
CH.20------
CH.21------
CH.22------
CH.23------
CH.24------
CH.25------
CH.26------
CH.27------
CH.28------
CH.29------
CH.30------
CH.31------
CH.32------
CH.33------Goku comes back & defeats Nappa.------The Shukaku is extracted, leading to Gaara's death.------Yasuie is executed.
CH.34------
CH.35------
CH.36-----------------------------------new Naruto arc begins-----------------------------
CH.37------
CH.38------
CH.39------
CH.40------
CH.41------
CH.42------
CH.43------
CH.44------
CH.45------
CH.46------
CH.47------Goku wins & Vegeta is spared.------Naruto loses control of the Nine-Tails in the fight with Orochimaru.------Orochi seems to have stopped the alliance's plan.
CH.48-----------------------------new DB arc begins-----------------------------
CH.49------
CH.50------
CH.51------
CH.52------
CH.53------
CH.54------
CH.55------
CH.56------
CH.57------
CH.58------
CH.59------
CH.60------
CH.61------
CH.62------
CH.63------
CH.64------
CH.65-----------------------------------new Naruto arc begins-----------------------------
CH.66------
CH.67------
CH.68------
CH.69------
CH.70------
CH.71------
CH.72------
CH.73------
CH.74------
CH.75------
CH.76------
CH.77------
CH.78------The Ginyu Force arrives.------Shikamaru & Asuma fail to kill Hidan.------The mid trio stops BM from targeting Luffy on his way to the rooftop.
CH.79------
CH.80------
CH.81------
CH.82------
CH.83------
CH.84------
CH.85------
CH.86------
CH.87------
CH.88------
CH.89------
CH.90------
CH.91------
CH.92------
CH.93------
CH.94------
CH.95------
CH.96------
CH.97------
CH.98------
CH.99------
CH.100-----
CH.101-----
CH.102-----Frieza transforms for the first time.------Sasuke absorbs Orochimaru & sets out to kill Itachi.------Oden's ghost kills Ashura Doji.
CH.103-----
CH.104-----
CH.105-----
CH.106-----
CH.107-----
CH.108-----
CH.109-----
CH.110-----
CH.111-----
CH.112-----
CH.113-----
CH.114-----
CH.115-----
CH.116-----
CH.117-----
CH.118-----
CH.119-----
CH.120-----
CH.121-----
CH.122-----
CH.123----------------------------------new Naruto arc begins----------------------------
CH.124-----Goku unlocks Super Saiyan.------Jiraiya fights Konan.------Sanji vs. Queen.
CH.125-----
CH.126-----
CH.127-----
CH.128-----
CH.129-----
CH.130-----
CH.131-----
CH.132-----
CH.133-----
CH.134-----Frieza & Namek blow up.------Jiraiya is defeated by the Pains.------Zunisha infodumps Momo about JoyBoy/Nika.
CH.135-----
CH.136----------------------------------new DB arc begins-----------------------------
CH.137-----
CH.138-----
CH.139-----
CH.140-----Future Trunks reveals his identity.------Sasuke starts fighting Itachi.------Kaido is defeated.
CH.141-----
CH.142-----
CH.143-----
CH.144-----
CH.145-----
CH.146-----
CH.147-----
CH.148-----Vegeta unlocks Super Saiyan.------Sasuke defeats Itachi; Tobi tells Sasuke about the Uchihas.------The SHs leave without Momo and Yamato.
----------------------------------Wano officially ends.----------------------------------

 

[Sentinel]

I would prefer the latter, Wano was an arc meant to highlight Oda's worldbuild and story telling.

And he cannot tell all of that in less than 100 chapters? Wano lasted 3 years, 3 entire years.

I don't care if Shueisha and Oda milk the manga after it's finished but stalling entire arcs is just completely destroying this manga.
Oda has some serious pacing issues especially after post ts but I feel like it began being more ridiculous during WCI. Egghead Island is an arc which was more longer than necessary as well.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

And he cannot tell all of that in less than 100 chapters? Wano lasted 3 years, 3 entire years.

I don't care if Shueisha and Oda milk the manga after it's finished but stalling entire arcs is just completely destroying this manga.
Oda has some serious pacing issues especially after post ts but I feel like it began being more ridiculous during WCI. Egghead Island is an arc which was more longer than necessary as well.

Alabasta showed more in 63 chapters than Wano did in 149.

 

[Roo]

Well Tbf DBZ had very fast pacing

 

[Garp the Fist]

No, Wano should've even been longer.

Issue was Oda built up so many subplots and characters, which went nowhere and is abandoned/in limbo by the time raid concluded.

Either don't introduce them in the first place, and make the arc much smaller.
Or do all that, and go all the way to address them by the end of the arc.

I would prefer the latter, Wano was an arc meant to highlight Oda's worldbuild and story telling.
Wano would've been the peak OP arc if Oda actually went through with his initial plans, instead of abandoning them mid way.

Wanos world building was terrible. Even the set up was bad. We visited multiple towns that were all seemingly identical and wastelands that were all seemingly identical.

This isn’t a length of story issue, oda just lost his ability to do proper island level world building

grey matter is 100% correct with what the flaws of Wano are.

I’m very slowly rereading the series (like a few chapters every couple of days, maybe even just one) and I’m actually at Alabasta right now.

The clear difference that I’ve noticed, reading on a relatively chapter to chapter basis between Oda’s writing and drawing back then, and what it is now, is one of scale and letting scenes breathe.

Every chapter now needs to be crammed with panels. The jokes have to be done quickly and moved on. Every chapter needs to end in a cliffhanger. The arcs are packed with characters (althugh Egghead and Elbaf have been a but better in this regard.

Alabasta had a lot fewer characters, and had a lot of time to dwell on them. People would probably bitch and moan about the chapters back then that was really just ‘Strawhats cross the desert’, saying nothing happened, but it’s the character work that such a slow chapter allows that made the series what it was.

It’s not the setup or the worldbuilding that was the issue. Alabasta, as an island, is actually not especially interesting. The towns are generic desert setting, with the only thing that really stands out being the one with a casino. Wano’s as a setting was far more fantasical- the entry up the waterfalls, the huge tree in the flower capital, Ringo being in snow, Hakumai being autumn themed, Onigashima on the coast. The arc was very well set up, from a world building perspective.

The problem with Wano, as grey matter said, was that Oda crammed so much into the arc that he couldn’t give the focus where it was needed. It either needed more time to look at it, or less characters in it (the real answer is less characters).

If you want to look at a character that sums up the flaws of Wano, look no further than Jack. Jack had great setup going into Wano. Foreshadowed in PH, arc villain in Zou, a fair focus in Act One. Then he does next to nothing. Oda blatantly changes his mind about how long he was a Beast Pirate, where he’s initally shown as part of the crew in the fight against Oden, then suddenly is far younger than the other Calamities and wasn’t there. He gets offpanelled by Inu and Neko. He floats around in the background getting less panel time than some of the TR. Then he’s beaten in one chapter, barely a fight, where he has to share screen time with a guy who has nothing to do with the arc.

Alabasta had a cast of about 30, I would guess. Not as much of the crew, small group of villains, Ace appears and disappears quickly, Smoker for the Marines, a couple of locals.

Wano must be at least three times that, if not more. More Strawhats, way more Beast Pirates, the Wano locals are a huge group of samurai, ninja, yakuza, bandits, crooks, Orochi, civilians, Big Mom shows up, the Minks are there, other Worst Gen, CP0, flashbacks to Roger and Whitebeard, Marco’s there, Yamato, the numbers, it goes on for days.

The world building for all that was all, generally speaking, fine. I can nitpick. (And more than nitpick with Big Mom’s inclusion). But the general story of the Strawhats going to Wano to overthrow an emperor and the shogun, all very well established.

There were just too many damn characters to really tell the story.

 

[Toryu]

I still believe having BM and Kaido in a single arc was a mistake, but it's clear that Oda didn't want a full arc to defeat only BM after Whole Cake

Whole cake overall, happened too early, storywise

 

[Punk Rotten]

When you put it like that it is crazy, but yeah like another user said

Well Tbf DBZ had very fast pacing

DBZ is very fast paced and very different style of storytelling. I agree Wano was bloated but it wasnt as bad as what people are making it out to be. High highs and low lows.

 

[Juanpiz]

When you put it like that it is crazy, but yeah like another user said





DBZ is very fast paced and very different style of storytelling. I agree Wano was bloated but it wasnt as bad as what people are making it out to be. High highs and low lows.

When you put it like that it is crazy, but yeah like another user said





DBZ is very fast paced and very different style of storytelling. I agree Wano was bloated but it wasnt as bad as what people are making it out to be. High highs and low lows.

Goku would have went to the last Place in op with Instant transmission

 

[soupongo]

Somehow Yamatrash is still a better character then Gohan

Post automatically merged: May 14, 2025

I'll even say Kaido/BM>Cell

 

[The White Crane]

How does that make you feel? How does it feel to know this arc took this long. Goku can literally save the earth and defeat an evil space lord on another planet in the time it took the raid to end. I ask again, how does this make you feel?

As years go by, I hope more and more people will accept the fact that Wano isn't just one of the 10 Worst Written Shounen arcs, but factually one of the 5 Worst Written Shounen arcs.

 

[moreha9685]

Oda fell for the old "bigger is better".

 

[zzShinichi]

The topic really caught my interest, so I looked a little into it. Here's the main story beats visualized and numbered equally.
CH.1-------Radditz arrives on Earth.------Naruto returns to the Leaf after 2 years.------Luffy wakes up in Wano.
CH.2-------
CH.3-------
CH.4-------
CH.5-------
CH.6-------
CH.7-------
CH.8-------
CH.9-------
CH.10------Radditz & Goku die; 2 Saiyans are hyped to attack Earth in the future.------Team Kakashi is en route to save Gaara.------Kinemon & Co. reveal to have traveled 20 years into the future.
CH.11------
CH.12------
CH.13------
CH.14------
CH.15------
CH.16------
CH.17------
CH.18------
CH.19------Vegeta & Nappa land on Earth.------Team Kakashi breaks into the Akatsuki base.------Orochi is introduced.
CH.20------
CH.21------
CH.22------
CH.23------
CH.24------
CH.25------
CH.26------
CH.27------
CH.28------
CH.29------
CH.30------
CH.31------
CH.32------
CH.33------Goku comes back & defeats Nappa.------The Shukaku is extracted, leading to Gaara's death.------Yasuie is executed.
CH.34------
CH.35------
CH.36-----------------------------------new Naruto arc begins-----------------------------
CH.37------
CH.38------
CH.39------
CH.40------
CH.41------
CH.42------
CH.43------
CH.44------
CH.45------
CH.46------
CH.47------Goku wins & Vegeta is spared.------Naruto loses control of the Nine-Tails in the fight with Orochimaru.------Orochi seems to have stopped the alliance's plan.
CH.48-----------------------------new DB arc begins-----------------------------
CH.49------
CH.50------
CH.51------
CH.52------
CH.53------
CH.54------
CH.55------
CH.56------
CH.57------
CH.58------
CH.59------
CH.60------
CH.61------
CH.62------
CH.63------
CH.64------
CH.65-----------------------------------new Naruto arc begins-----------------------------
CH.66------
CH.67------
CH.68------
CH.69------
CH.70------
CH.71------
CH.72------
CH.73------
CH.74------
CH.75------
CH.76------
CH.77------
CH.78------The Ginyu Force arrives.------Shikamaru & Asuma fail to kill Hidan.------The mid trio stops BM from targeting Luffy on his way to the rooftop.
CH.79------
CH.80------
CH.81------
CH.82------
CH.83------
CH.84------
CH.85------
CH.86------
CH.87------
CH.88------
CH.89------
CH.90------
CH.91------
CH.92------
CH.93------
CH.94------
CH.95------
CH.96------
CH.97------
CH.98------
CH.99------
CH.100-----
CH.101-----
CH.102-----Frieza transforms for the first time.------Sasuke absorbs Orochimaru & sets out to kill Itachi.------Oden's ghost kills Ashura Doji.
CH.103-----
CH.104-----
CH.105-----
CH.106-----
CH.107-----
CH.108-----
CH.109-----
CH.110-----
CH.111-----
CH.112-----
CH.113-----
CH.114-----
CH.115-----
CH.116-----
CH.117-----
CH.118-----
CH.119-----
CH.120-----
CH.121-----
CH.122-----
CH.123----------------------------------new Naruto arc begins----------------------------
CH.124-----Goku unlocks Super Saiyan.------Jiraiya fights Konan.------Sanji vs. Queen.
CH.125-----
CH.126-----
CH.127-----
CH.128-----
CH.129-----
CH.130-----
CH.131-----
CH.132-----
CH.133-----
CH.134-----Frieza & Namek blow up.------Jiraiya is defeated by the Pains.------Zunisha infodumps Momo about JoyBoy/Nika.
CH.135-----
CH.136----------------------------------new DB arc begins-----------------------------
CH.137-----
CH.138-----
CH.139-----
CH.140-----Future Trunks reveals his identity.------Sasuke starts fighting Itachi.------Kaido is defeated.
CH.141-----
CH.142-----
CH.143-----
CH.144-----
CH.145-----
CH.146-----
CH.147-----
CH.148-----Vegeta unlocks Super Saiyan.------Sasuke defeats Itachi; Tobi tells Sasuke about the Uchihas.------The SHs leave without Momo and Yamato.
----------------------------------Wano officially ends.----------------------------------

How the fuck
Naruto learning Rasen Shuriken and defeating Kakuzu also fits in this timeline right?

 

[moreha9685]

How the fuck
Naruto learning Rasen Shuriken and defeating Kakuzu also fits in this timeline right?

Naruto's team fights Itachi, Kisame, Kakuzu, Hidan, Orochimaru, has a skirmish with Sasuke, Sasuke fights and defeats Itachi, Jiraya figts Konan and is defeated by the Pains------ALL while Luffy was in Wano.

 

[grey matter]

That's what I said no? Shave the fat and make the story go much faster.

That was just an option I mentioned.
Of course it would be an improvement to what we got.

But ideally, IMO it would've been way better to go all the way with the worldbuilding, characters and plot points. It would be very fitting for something as grand as finale of "yonko saga" to have massive worldbuilding too (they are emperors afterall).
Make Wano last about 30-40 chapters more and address the dangling stuff - Wano instantly becomes massively better, even with the disaster that is G5 Luffy.

Wanos world building was terrible. Even the set up was bad. We visited multiple towns that were all seemingly identical and wastelands that were all seemingly identical.

This isn’t a length of story issue, oda just lost his ability to do proper island level world building

Nah, by this logic all islands were similar. Alabasta was all desert, Dresrossa was just some Spanish city all round, etc.
There are nuances within of course which adds to the flavour.

In fact, Wano was the least similar of the lands we visited in OP.
We had one winter island, flower capital which was a (false) paradise, a island prison/factory, and bunch of wastelands.

Anyway, I will 100% agree that Oda lost the ability to do proper island level world building.
Egghead had massive potential too, it turned out to be shit IMO.

And he cannot tell all of that in less than 100 chapters? Wano lasted 3 years, 3 entire years.

I don't care if Shueisha and Oda milk the manga after it's finished but stalling entire arcs is just completely destroying this manga.
Oda has some serious pacing issues especially after post ts but I feel like it began being more ridiculous during WCI. Egghead Island is an arc which was more longer than necessary as well.

I think it's an issue with us being weekly readers.

I think Dresrossa arc was amazing. Easily the best arc of post TS, and competes with the best arcs of OP like Marineford (IMO).

It too was very long, had tons of characters, multiple plot points, etc.
But they all went somewhere - they had good/decent culminations, or at least was addressed by the end of the arc, leaving a good taste in the eyes of the fans.
Dresrossa was almost perfect in this regard. Side villains like Senor Pink and Lao G shined and got good characterization. Even trash from colosseum like Orlumbus, suit brothers and Jeet mattered - they did stuff in the arc; and most of the colosseum fighters ended up joining SHP to form grand fleet, culminating in a very satisfying end. This is an arc which demonstrates that more characters, subplots etc can make an arc better, even if it makes it bigger/bloated.
Yes, it was slow and dragged, but that's just how Oda is. Most arcs except Marineford were a drag, to varying degrees.

I actually went and saw Wano arc from the start, binged it.
Well, it was actually enjoyable from the start till the mid raid (i.e roofpiece), and then well we know what happened lol.

 

[kekaro]

DB is a very fast paced manga, even compared to most other shounen, people have skewed perspective because most people just saw the toei version

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

Wanos world building was terrible. Even the set up was bad. We visited multiple towns that were all seemingly identical and wastelands that were all seemingly identical.

This isn’t a length of story issue, oda just lost his ability to do proper island level world building

Only 5 Scabbards not 9 would save Wano.

 

[Bonk]

It makes me realize how little I cared about a story as a kid and that screaming KAMEHAMEHA at the top their lungs was enough to keep me entertained.

DBZ can be summed up in a few sentences. It can also be extended to all future DB versions.
Goku strong
Goku meet stronger guy
Goku becomes stronger
Goku beats stronger guy
Goku meet stronger guy
and so on
sometimes Goku is other guy like Vegetable or one of his son, or maybe even Vegetable son, but pattern remains. Fusion too for novelty.

Oversimplifying a series' plot won't get your point across, don't pretend any of your favorite manga or movies can't also be quickly summed up just like you did. Let's not forget all the way from Dressrosa to the end of Wano all Luffy did was getting new Gears and new Haki to beat his opponents. That stretch of the story lasts around 350~ chapters, while the entirety of DBZ lasts only around 320 lmao.
But we both know One Piece is way more than getting new Gears and new Haki, right?

 

[trav]

Oversimplifying

DBZ is that simple. The story has no substance and no overarching theme except "Goku strong".
Every villain was just Monster of the Month.
I really enjoyed DBZ as a little kid. Today you would not get me to sit through even a single episode.

DB is fine though.

 

[Juanpiz]

DBZ is that simple. The story has no substance and no overarching theme except "Goku strong".
Every villain was just Monster of the Month.
I really enjoyed DBZ as a little kid. Today you would not get me to sit through even a single episode.

DB is fine though.

Often These Monsters became allies

 

[Bonk]

DBZ is that simple. The story has no substance and no overarching theme except "Goku strong".
Every villain was just Monster of the Month.
I really enjoyed DBZ as a little kid. Today you would not get me to sit through even a single episode.

DB is fine though.

I mean, it is a manga for teenagers, and we are discussing this in a forum dedicated to another manga for teenagers as well lol. DB doesn't have much of a theme either, and it shines because it lacks any bloat or unnecesary complexity. I just don't think DBZ can be reduced to that, recently i reread it up until the Cell Saga and both the characterization and the stakes are very great.
I believe it has become easier to shit on DBZ because Super destroyed most of the good stuff and charm the series had.