Controversial Was Rocks planned?

[yoyoyotony]

What do you want to see in the finale? If you want a lore dump that explains lore: the void century, grand line, celestial dragons, etc., then I think you'll get that but I think One Piece is past the point of no return of a good ending. Let me explain. The ending of One Piece MUST be a battle between Luffy and a Big Bad. A good ending will require a good villain but that is no longer possible.

The best villain would have been Blackbeard, and he might be the final big bad, but he's underdeveloped because he's been absent for most of the story. I would have wanted to see the SHs fight with Blackbeard over the polygliffs and develop rivalries between the crew members and develop a counter worldview for Blackbeard that would challenge Luffy's worldview. But instead OP has been filler after filler and even if Oda tries to build up BB, which it seems like he is, then it'll be too little too late.

The other option is Imu as the final big bad but he has the exact same problem as Blackbeard and that problem is that he has been missing for most of the story. This is the Kaguya problem.

It seems like Oda has decided to turn the CD into mustache twerking Saturday morning cartoon villains: they like slavery, rape, genocide, everything bad in life, etc. so that Luffy can topple them and save the world. Some folks will like this ending. I don't and by making the CD so evil, Oda has lost the ability to write any plot twist. Lastly, just like with Naurto, Oda has betrayed his themes because destiny (will of the D) contradicts freedom.

I want a lore dump sure, and satisfying conclusions to the themes of the series (fun, liberation, power, friendship and so on) and characters' arcs (dreams of the SH, fall of the CD). I think the ending is still far away and Oda is still in the development phase lol. When he starts hitting the ending, we'll know and everything will get way denser (plot, themes, lore, dialogues, characters' interactions, callbacks to early arcs) I think. He still has all the time in the world to build up BB and Imu and whoever he wants.

CD being cartoonically evil is not a problem, One Piece is a cartoon before anything. But there is always a swerve from cartoony to deathly serious, no ?

And for the destiny stuff... Yeah that's where I start having doubts and fear lol. But for that also, I think a swerve is coming. I think Luffy will be hit with all that prophecy bullshit, and instead of accepting it or embracing it like Naruto did... will react Luffy's style. The plot also will twist Luffy's style. And we'll laugh like Roger did, and be ready for a great ending : )

Luffy's final ennemy won't be BB or Imu, it will be his destiny, because that's really what is a threat to his freedom.

 

[U c 4 up da idly]

Since Saobody with Shakky being confirmed a rocks pirate later on by Oda

 

[OneHater]

I want a lore dump sure, and satisfying conclusions to the themes of the series (fun, liberation, power, friendship and so on) and characters' arcs (dreams of the SH, fall of the CD). I think the ending is still far away and Oda is still in the development phase lol. When he starts hitting the ending, we'll know and everything will get way denser (plot, themes, lore, dialogues, characters' interactions, callbacks to early arcs) I think. He still has all the time in the world to build up BB and Imu and whoever he wants.

CD being cartoonically evil is not a problem, One Piece is a cartoon before anything. But there is always a swerve from cartoony to deathly serious, no ?

And for the destiny stuff... Yeah that's where I start having doubts and fear lol. But for that also, I think a swerve is coming. I think Luffy will be hit with all that prophecy bullshit, and instead of accepting it or embracing it like Naruto did... will react Luffy's style. The plot also will twist Luffy's style. And we'll laugh like Roger did, and be ready for a great ending : )

Luffy's final ennemy won't be BB or Imu, it will be his destiny, because that's really what is a threat to his freedom.

Name 1 example of Oda writing a setup that lead to a good payoff? The closest I could cite would be Ace's death but that didn't change Luffy or anything really. Oda's strengths are world-building and lore but those don't result in a strong ending. I don't see any reason to believe that Oda could write a good ending to the story. By good I mean more than luffy beats bad guy and we get a lore dump. Especially because this has been his MO for years now.

With regards to themes, I think OP is way past the point of no return. Fun? Power? Sure. Luffy is a goody manchild, he is incompetent and he gets carried by his devil fruit and his destiny (plot armor). Liberation? Ya, slavery bad. racism bad. Obvious stuff. Friendship? Crew hasn't mattered since W7.

Gear 5 is a huge problem. Actions shows live on tension and Gear 5 makes Luffy too OP. So either the show will no longer have high stakes, high tension fights or Oda will have to nurf G5 and give Luffy a new power up and that would cheapen G5 and cause more power creep. This is the same issue Naruto had with Sage Mode.

A good ending requires a good middle section and that middle sections requires building up characters and creating conflict but that has been largely absent in OP since Oda has spent the middle section focusing on toppling filler villains. One Piece has the same problem as Naruto or stories like Game of Thrones and that's a weak middle section (usually called an Act 2) and without a strong middle section the ending will be flat.

 

[yoyoyotony]

Name 1 example of Oda writing a setup that lead to a good payoff? The closest I could cite would be Ace's death but that didn't change Luffy or anything really. Oda's strengths are world-building and lore but those don't result in a strong ending. I don't see any reason to believe that Oda could write a good ending to the story. By good I mean more than luffy beats bad guy and we get a lore dump. Especially because this has been his MO for years now.

With regards to themes, I think OP is way past the point of no return. Fun? Power? Sure. Luffy is a goody manchild, he is incompetent and he gets carried by his devil fruit and his destiny (plot armor). Liberation? Ya, slavery bad. racism bad. Obvious stuff. Friendship? Crew hasn't mattered since W7.

Gear 5 is a huge problem. Actions shows live on tension and Gear 5 makes Luffy too OP. So either the show will no longer have high stakes, high tension fights or Oda will have to nurf G5 and give Luffy a new power up and that would cheapen G5 and cause more power creep. This is the same issue Naruto had with Sage Mode.

A good ending requires a good middle section and that middle sections requires building up characters and creating conflict but that has been largely absent in OP since Oda has spent the middle section focusing on toppling filler villains. One Piece has the same problem as Naruto or stories like Game of Thrones and that's a weak middle section (usually called an Act 2) and without a strong middle section the ending will be flat.

I get back to Grant Morrison but that's exactly how it feels with his runs... Amazing beginnings, middles where you feel he's lost the plot, and endings that tie everything together and you reread it all and all is fine...

To get back to the thread, I think the final act, via Rocks and Imu, will tie it all together. Why we had to spend so much time on Big Mom and Kaido. And rereading act 2 with new insights will be really rewarding.

 

[OneHater]

I get back to Grant Morrison but that's exactly how it feels with his runs... Amazing beginnings, middles where you feel he's lost the plot, and endings that tie everything together and you reread it all and all is fine...

To get back to the thread, I think the final act, via Rocks and Imu, will tie it all together. Why we had to spend so much time on Big Mom and Kaido. And rereading act 2 with new insights will be really rewarding.

Kaido ending was very bad. Luffy won through a retcon and dues ex machina. WCI ending was bad too, especially with Sanji getting his memory whipped. I dislike the Gorosei and the Pacifista (Edo Tensei). Oda is adding more pointless filler characters rather than build up existing characters. In good writing, it's discouraged to add new stuff in the 2nd half of a story. The important stuff should be referenced in the 1st half of the story and then used or resolved in the 2nd half. Oda has underdeveloped his core cast and he has added too many pointless characters, like Rocks, and this is a recipe for disaster and we saw this at the end of Naurto Shippuden.

 

[MonochromeYoru]

No. Pebble was though. Oda just upgraded that idea.

 

[yoyoyotony]

Kaido ending was very bad. Luffy won through a retcon and dues ex machina. WCI ending was bad too, especially with Sanji getting his memory whipped. I dislike the Gorosei and the Pacifista (Edo Tensei). Oda is adding more pointless filler characters rather than build up existing characters. In good writing, it's discouraged to add new stuff in the 2nd half of a story. The important stuff should be referenced in the 1st half of the story and then used or resolved in the 2nd half. Oda has underdeveloped his core cast and he has added too many pointless characters, like Rocks, and this is a recipe for disaster and we saw this at the end of Naurto Shippuden.

In great writing, you can do whatever you want as long as it's great. How the hell would you know Rocks is pointless ?
I disagree about WCI ending, but agree about Wano ending. But I think it will be great in a rereading after the end of the series.

 

[OneHater]

In great writing, you can do whatever you want as long as it's great.

Wrong. There are rules because certain writing decisions will never be good like introducing a new villain at the end of an arc or story, e.g. Kaguya.

How the hell would you know Rocks is pointless ?

Because he is dead. The events and characters who matter are the ones who are alive and interact with the main characters and change the story. One of the major writing problems of One Piece is the substitution of character and plot development with flashbacks.

I disagree about WCI ending, but agree about Wano ending.

WCI was the worst. Oda removed Sanji's memories so he would be stunted as an eternal simp because Oda didn't want Sanji to mature. This is the most obvious example of the decisions that stop One Piece from being better. Imagine if Oda wiped Nami's memories after Arlong Park.

But I think it will be great in a rereading after the end of the series.

Nah. Without solid character development or plot development or plot twists, OP relies upon world building and mysteries to keep readers engaged and these elements don't make for a good reread.

 

[God of Finance]

They were planned. Imu for sure anyway. Skypeia makes that obvious. Even Arabasta.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Imu sama is fine. I always thought there would be an entity like royal guards from Bleach since MF arc.

Rocks does feel he came out of nowhere. All the yonkos once being part of same crew feels coincidental.

For now rocks exist to give Roger a more threatening rival and to showcase his power with addition to there being a BB equivalent in Roger's era.

 

[yoyoyotony]

Wrong. There are rules because certain writing decisions will never be good like introducing a new villain at the end of an arc or story, e.g. Kaguya.


Because he is dead. The events and characters who matter are the ones who are alive and interact with the main characters and change the story. One of the major writing problems of One Piece is the substitution of character and plot development with flashbacks.


WCI was the worst. Oda removed Sanji's memories so he would be stunted as an eternal simp because Oda didn't want Sanji to mature. This is the most obvious example of the decisions that stop One Piece from being better. Imagine if Oda wiped Nami's memories after Arlong Park.


Nah. Without solid character development or plot development or plot twists, OP relies upon world building and mysteries to keep readers engaged and these elements don't make for a good reread.

Why would One Piece ending be a repetition of Naruto ending? How do you know Rocks is dead? And if he is, why does it matter ? Even if he is just a reason to contextualise Big Mom's, Kaido's, Whitebeard's and Roger's pasts, and Luffy's and Black Beard's futures ?

I can understand weekly reading fatigue, but predicting a shitty ending is just nonsense... I believe Oda is a great and very original writer, kind of hampered by the weekly and shonen formats, but able to transcend it all in the end. But I'm also prepared for a shitty ending, I just don't know

 

[OneHater]

Why would One Piece ending be a repetition of Naruto ending?

Naruto had a bad ending because the middle sections didn't build up to a solid ending. One Piece has the same issue.

How do you know Rocks is dead? And if he is, why does it matter ? Even if he is just a reason to contextualise Big Mom's, Kaido's, Whitebeard's and Roger's pasts,

filler content / lore

and Luffy's and Black Beard's futures ?

Rocks and everything in the past has NOTHING to do with Luffy's or Blackbeard's future. Their future is whatever Oda decides it is.

I can understand weekly reading fatigue, but predicting a shitty ending is just nonsense... I believe Oda is a great and very original writer, kind of hampered by the weekly and shonen formats, but able to transcend it all in the end. But I'm also prepared for a shitty ending, I just don't know

It's not nonsense. One Piece has huge problems and Oda has strengths and weaknesses like all writers. One of the weaknesses of OP is the lack of character development. Oda could decide that Sanji should grow up but instead he choose to wipe Sanji's memory so Sanji does not learn or grow. A good ending would have Sanji changing over the course of his voyager so to me that was a HUGE red flag. Likewise the battle with Kaido. Oda said he didn't want Luffy to simply punch him and Oda could have written a tag team match against Kaido but nope he chose to go with a dues ex machina powerup. Oda can't even write a decent battle that doesn't involve Luffy punching the other guy to win. To me these are huge HUGE redflags and they remind me of the redflags at the end of Naruto and like Gear 5/ Sage Mode or Edo Tensei / Pacifista.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Naruto had a bad ending because the middle sections didn't build up to a solid ending. One Piece has the same issue.

Wtf kind of comparison is this? Kaguya was introduced 21 chapters prior to Naruto ending.

Imu was introduced almost 200 chapters ago, and we are now starting to get the build up for him and the Gorosei, with there being at least another 3-400 chapters left for the series.

One Piece's ending has been building up for many years. Naruto's ending was set up during the last 21 chapters of the manga. They are not the "same issue"..... Not even remotely close.... Smh...

 

[nik87]

Plenty of chances to mention him or allude to his exsistence

 

[OneHater]

Wtf kind of comparison is this? Kaguya was introduced 21 chapters prior to Naruto ending.

Imu was introduced almost 200 chapters ago, and we are now starting to get the build up for him and the Gorosei, with there being at least another 3-400 chapters left for the series.

One Piece's ending has been building up for many years. Naruto's ending was set up during the last 21 chapters of the manga. They are not the "same issue"..... Not even remotely close.... Smh...

Naruto had already peaked at Search for Tsunade. Sasuke Retrival Arc and Akatsuki/Jinchuriki Arc(s) were okay to watch but they were mostly filler fights and they didn't setup a final act. If you understand screenplay writing then you know that a story can't have a strong ending if the middle section is underdeveloped and this was obviously a problem in Naruto by even the Pain Arc. Obito and Madara could have never been good villains for Naruto because they weren't linked to this character arc. One Piece has the same issue. Everything post Ennis Lobby or so has been half baked or filler and hasn't setup a good ending. Imu will be shoehorned as a Kaguya type villain because he came from the past and his link to Luffy is through destiny (joyboy, will of d, reincarnation of Indra and Asura) but has no relation to Luffy in the present and Blackbeard will be underdeveloped like Sasuke.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Naruto had already peaked at Search for Tsunade. Sasuke Retrival Arc and Akatsuki/Jinchuriki Arc(s) were okay to watch but they were mostly filler fights and they didn't setup a final act. If you understand screenplay writing then you know that a story can't have a strong ending if the middle section is underdeveloped and this was obviously a problem in Naruto by even the Pain Arc. Obito and Madara could have never been good villains for Naruto because they weren't linked to this character arc. One Piece has the same issue. Everything post Ennis Lobby or so has been half baked or filler and hasn't setup a good ending. Imu will be shoehorned as a Kaguya type villain because he came from the past and his link to Luffy is through destiny (joyboy, will of d, reincarnation of Indra and Asura) but has no relation to Luffy in the present and Blackbeard will be underdeveloped like Sasuke.

We've already long known that the events of the past were meant to have an impact on the current events ever since we first heard about how "100 years" had been erased from History. The truth of those 100 years is detrimental to the ending of the story. Having someone actually be from that time period, just adds to the plot. There is no shoehorning going on here. The Void Century was always meant to be important to the overarching story. The Straw Hats and Luffy specifically were painted as chosen ones all the way back at the Twin Capes. So them having some major destiny has long been established. There is a greater narrative that I think you're failing to see here.

The difference between One Piece and Naruto is Oda has already established all of this, and has stuck to that narrative since the beginning. He never once led the fans into thinking the story was moving in one direction, and then did a 180, and threw everything out the window at the last minute like Kishimoto did.

 

[GEMATRIA]

Whenever we were first told the name of Blackbeard's ship., is the first time the idea of Rocks was introduced.

 

[OneHater]

We've already long known that the events of the past were meant to have an impact on the current events ever since we first heard about how "100 years" had been erased from History. The truth of those 100 years is detrimental to the ending of the story. Having someone actually be from that time period, just adds to the plot.

This is bad writing because it removes agency from the protagonist. The protagonist should want to defeat the bad guy because of his own personal experience and this is usually developed in the the story and is lacking in One Piece. For instance I would prefer if Nami is kidnapped and r*ped and forced to become a slave and that made Luffy want to overthrow the WG rather than these things happening to side characters and not being directly linked to Luffy. Oda could even write an arc where Luffy had to rescue Nami rather than Dragon to not recusing people. Oda is substituting a real story with flashbacks and lore.

There is no shoehorning going on here. The Void Century was always meant to be important to the overarching story. The Straw Hats and Luffy specifically were painted as chosen ones all the way back at the Twin Capes. So them having some major destiny has long been established. There is a greater narrative that I think you're failing to see here.

The difference between One Piece and Naruto is Oda has already established all of this, and has stuck to that narrative since the beginning. He never once led the fans into thinking the story was moving in one direction, and then did a 180, and threw everything out the window at the last minute like Kishimoto did.

I disagree. Void Century isn't mentioned until chapter 393 at Ohara. Polyglyths weren't mentioned until Chapter 202. Neither concept was at the beginning of OP. I think Oda is substituting The One Piece and Gold Roger with the Void Century and Joyboy. The Age of Piracy occurred because pirates wanted to find Roger's treasury (MONEY), not because they wanted to overthrow the World Govt. and find the truth about the ancient history. You can see issues like the good Admirals no longer make sense in the story. Haki is also a retcon because if Shanks knew Haki then he wouldn't have had his arm tornoff.

 

[Jailer]

Imu definitely, unsure about rox.

Imus connected to the meaning of the Will of D which has been introduced since East Blue and given importance in Drum Kingdom.

Rox feels like Oden where he’s kinda just slapped into the plot randomly though

Imu's existence was never hinted