We Have Severely Underestimated Kanki

[Bullet]

Every so often this sub goes ape shit lol, Ousen being one of those characters who makes people quite forgetful.

I wouldn’t say Ousen was an embarrassment, in fact I thought he was quite impressive at Shukai Plains, but by his own admission Riboku had him beat as far as tactics go.

Ousen sat on his ass and hoped for one of the wings to win without doing absolutely anything to help, just sometimes having a look of according to the plan.
Riboku takes out Makou which would have been Zhao's immediate victory on day 1 if not for Mouten
Riboku puts Akou in a dangerous situation which he barely survived because of the right wing being full of chads
Comes up with a plan to eliminate Ou Hon and barely fails only because of the sacrifice and heart of his unit
After Riboku is put in a pincer which was the only strategy Ousen could think of, he immediately countered it by using Bananji and Futei and put Ousen in a worse situation
Mind you it was Ousen's only strategy for 15 days and when it worked it took Riboku 15 minutes to do it better
Other than countering Riboku's mixed hybrid strategy formation which was impressive Ousen does nothing at Shukai.
He didn't see any of Riboku's moves which would have cost him his life coming or have absolutely any counter for them, he was just conveniently saved by his underlings everytine. Ousen saying their strategies was evenly matched is giving himself too much credit
The food supply and locust plan deserves credit even if it probably would have failed if Riboku wasn't brought back to the capital the moment he figured it out but Ousen was nothing special at Shukai.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2022

This why the plot armour complaints regarding Ri Boku are so funny to me.

Strategy is broken down and explained.

Not only does Kan Ki's psychological warfare "just work", he's had a 100% success rate with it. Even in the most dire of situations.

The way I perceive Kan Ki, he is perfectly capable of using and winning through conventional strategy. If he dedicated but a year of his time to study, he'd probably be able to plan entire campaigns on a level that would impress Ou Sen, SHK, Ri Boku, etc.

The only reason Kan Ki doesn't do any of that, is because he doesn't want to. It's not who he is. As made clear by his flashback, Kan Ki has a complex around power. What is more powerful than taking the heads of your enemies?

If Kan Ki is indeed an Instinctual Type (or Hybrid), his animal motif is not a lion like Duke Hyou's or a spider like Kei Sha, but a hyena. Cruel, deliberate and always smiling in the face of his enemies.

A bunch of generals have used plot armor thus far
When shin arrive early and conveniently saved Ou Hon i didn't hear complaints but now without Riboku doing anything yet people are crying
Let's see what happens, if it was ridi then complain.

 

[FutureWarrior123]

Kan Ki's biggest feats have all required extremely heavy lifting and facilitating by multiple 6GG tier talents (and sometimes overtly by the plot, as seen at Eikyuu).

Assets, or the Generals chest pieces, are always important factors that contribute (or even make or break) a success in nearly every large scale battle we've seen in the story. Ousen really only won Shukai Plains by using those same 6GG talents to take control of the right side, that doesn't change the fact that it was an intentional decision to place them there, and neither does it undermine his ability as a general to foresee the outcome that it would bring from that decision that would lead to victory.

Using this an example to prove Kanki is inferior is disingenuous when you'll have to set the same standard to every other top tier general to ever exist.

Ouki - ''A war depends on its generals''

Your interpretation of Kanki not being bound by limitations is true, but I don't understand how you perceive him to be an inferior general based on that aspect. You have to take into consideration of all factors that go into how a general operates on the battlefield, including things such as their nature. Using fear of violence and depravity as a strategy is something perfectly suited for a guy like Kanki, especially when you combine that fear to be used as the foundation for a genius-level strategy. That is what makes it unorthodox. When Kanki used that Rigan strategy against Kisui, nobody was going like ''Damn Kanki, that cheating bastard!''. No, we got Riboku comparisons. You say you look at the story objectively, but I doubt that is 100% true.

That's not even mentioning that he doesn't even use threats of violence as constantly as you make it out to be. We have seen him kill top-tier generals without the need to ''break any rules''. He specifically used that at Kokuyou and now at Gian because he was aware of the success rate that it would have knowing his opponents sensibilities. What makes his psychological warfare so adaptable is because there is no one better than him that can accurately read and predict how his opponent will react to a given situation.

For clarification, I don't think Kanki is objectively a superior general to Riboku or Ousen (I say this as a Kanki fan). Even if he is the weakest of the 6GG, that would only prove that the gap between any of the current 6GG and 3GH are small enough that anybody can win against anyone. I think you are downplaying Kanki heavily my guy.

In a blind fight between Riboku and Kanki, no planning, no prior knowledge of each others abilities, and equal armies, I would bet money that Riboku would get the Kochou treatment. No question.

 

[Rumble]

Assets, or the Generals chest pieces, are always important factors that contribute (or even make or break) a success in nearly every large scale battle we've seen in the story.

That's not in dispute, and Kan Ki should get some credit for recognising depths and limitations of the talents he exploits.

What is in dispute is how much credit Kan Ki should get for what amounts to simply tasking 6GG talents ahead of powerful armies like Ou Hon and Shin (who comes in package deal with 6GG talents in Kyou Kai and Ka Ryo Ten) to do the impossible, with effectively zero guidance or involvement.

Ousen really only won Shukai Plains by using those same 6GG talents to take control of the right side, that doesn't change the fact that it was an intentional decision to place them there, and neither does it undermine his ability as a general to foresee the outcome that it would bring from that decision that would lead to victory.

Ou Sen outright says as much - that he pretty much won because of better "cards" - and yet, unlike Kan Ki, he was much more involved and deliberate in his approach to utilising the talents of the Q3.

Your interpretation of Kanki not being bound by limitations is true, but I don't understand how you perceive him to be an inferior general based on that aspect.

That's not the basis for why I consider Kan Ki the weakest of the current 6GG.

I consider him the weakest because, as unrestrained as he is, he possess the weakest army (in more ways than one), the weakest officers (probably, Mou Bu Army is largely an unknown, but c'mon), and the fewest paths to victory.

In a blind fight between Riboku and Kanki, no planning, no prior knowledge of each others abilities, and equal armies, I would bet money that Riboku would get the Kochou treatment. No question.

I doubt it.

In fact, Eikyuu is the most egregious example of Kan Ki getting all the credit for an operation that could not have been achieved without the help of multiple 6GG talents pretty much acting independently, and even then it came down to the wire, such that it should become clear to audiences, albeit perhaps in hindsight, that Ko Chou wasn't fighting Kan Ki so much as he was racing against the clock in a contest fate had already determined before the Hi Shin Army even arrived.

The Hi Shin Army arrived half a day early, just in time to save Ou Hon's life.

Spoiler

Because of that, they learned what the best point of attack was, and not only that, they inherited the opportunity to complete the pincer A Ka Kin had put into motion.

Spoiler

Because of good timing and strong allies, Eikyuu fell before the Kan Ki Army was completely wiped out, and in taking it, they forced Ko Chou to divert too many soldiers, leaving him vulnerable.

Spoiler

The story demanded Ko Chou's sacrifice and so he fell, but he did not fall only to Kan Ki. Ou Hon and Shin each deserve a far bigger slice of the credit pie than they've been getting from this fanbase.

In a conflict with Ri Boku, Kan Ki would almost assuredly lose despite his lack of restraint. Part of Ri Boku's problem this arc is that he let Kan Ki run the clock by making him overthink, but as the chapter explains, Ri Boku was in the mindset to be ambushed because Gian had already been taken under his nose. And even still, despite not anticipating an ambush, he set up his army to quickly regroup in the event of an attack.

Without the help of 6GG talents from external armies, Kan Ki doesn't stand much of a chance against Ri Boku. His army is too weak, his officers are inferior, and unless he's able to exploit civilian populations, he has no means of meaningful defence.

 

[FutureWarrior123]

In fact, Eikyuu is the most egregious example of Kan Ki getting all the credit for an operation that could not have been achieved without the help of multiple 6GG talents pretty much acting independently

That's fine. Everyone involved deserved the credit.

Just like Shin and Heki deserve credit for saving Duke Hyou's life by Gokei's pincer on their own volition.

Just like Shin and Ouhon deserve credit for securing the right flank on their own to allow Ousen to win Shukai Plains

Every variable is important, that is a natural part of war. Everyone has a responsibility that a General must put their trust in order for their plans to come to fruition. Luck is important too. I'm pretty sure you agree with this.

I consider him the weakest because, as unrestrained as he is, he possess the weakest army (in more ways than one), the weakest officers (probably, Mou Bu Army is largely an unknown, but c'mon), and the fewest paths to victory.

If you consider stats objective, this is false.

Ousen's most powerful officers (Akou and Shiryou) have a 91 strength stat.

Riboku has the same strength stat, yet was on the backfoot against Shuma. So we can assume Shuma is at least 92. Zenou is said to be 93. Kanki officers are superior to the Ousen officers. As for common soldiers, they are definitely not as disciplined in strategy and formation, but the Zenou clan itself is said to have destructive power on par with the Moubu army, which arguably counteracts that.

 

[Monet]

That's fine. Everyone involved deserved the credit.

Just like Shin and Heki deserve credit for saving Duke Hyou's life by Gokei's pincer on their own volition.

Just like Shin and Ouhon deserve credit for securing the right flank on their own to allow Ousen to win Shukai Plains

Every variable is important, that is a natural part of war. Everyone has a responsibility that a General must put their trust in order for their plans to come to fruition. Luck is important too. I'm pretty sure you agree with this.



If you consider stats objective, this is false.

Ousen's most powerful officers (Akou and Shiryou) have a 91 strength stat.

Riboku has the same strength stat, yet was on the backfoot against Shuma. So we can assume Shuma is at least 92. Zenou is said to be 93. Kanki officers are superior to the Ousen officers. As for common soldiers, they are definitely not as disciplined in strategy and formation, but the Zenou clan itself is said to have destructive power on par with the Moubu army, which arguably counteracts that.

or maybe it's RBK who went down in stats ?!
cuz he didn't fight at all in last decade unlike kanki officers who are fighting everywar at front line

 

[Rumble]

That's fine. Everyone involved deserved the credit.

OK, but that wasn't the argument. I never stated anything to the contrary. This is the quote you replied to.

Kan Ki's biggest feats have all required extremely heavy lifting and facilitating by multiple 6GG tier talents (and sometimes overtly by the plot, as seen at Eikyuu).

Nowhere does that suggest Kan Ki doesn't deserve any credit for his involvement in Eikyuu or anything else. I'd like to see you try arguing otherwise, but I'd settle for an debate on the merits of what I actually posted.

I'd also like to see you engage with the points I made on the circumstances of Ko Chou's defeat. You seem to acknowledge there are others that deserve credit for that victory, so how do you propose Kan Ki would give Ri Boku "the Ko Chou treatment" in a scenario such as you described, without the assistance of those that were so instrumental in taking down Ko Chou?

In a blind fight between Riboku and Kanki, no planning, no prior knowledge of each others abilities, and equal armies, I would bet money that Riboku would get the Kochou treatment. No question.

I'd certainly like to see you try to justify the "no question" part.

Ch 741 even outright states Ri Boku was only in the mindset to be ambushed because Gian had already fallen under his nose - a feat Shin orchestrated without Kan Ki's involvement.

Spoiler

If you consider stats objective, this is false.

No, not false.

Just on STR alone, it's clear the Ou Sen Army officers are stronger fighters on average.

The Kan Ki Army has: Kan Ki (93), Zenou (93), Ogiko (84), Rin Gyoku (83), Koku'Ou (82) and Ma Ron (79).

The Ou Sen Army has: Ou Sen (93), A Kou (91), Shi You (91), Sou'Ou (85) and Den Ri Mi (80).

That's without even getting into how their soldiers are all elites, deeply loyal, highly disciplined and exceptionally well armed, prepared and trained. All of Ou Sen's armies can pull off high level tactics and strategy independently of each other and flawless coordinate at the drop of a hat.

Spoiler

Riboku has the same strength stat, yet was on the backfoot against Shuma. So we can assume Shuma is at least 92.

lol, you can assume Shu Ma is a 92 if you'd like. I certainly do not agree with that assessment.

Ri Boku was on the backfoot right after intercepting a killing blow meant for Kaine. Shu Ma was dual-wielding, i.e. he possessed more ways to hurt Ri Boku than Ri Boku had to hurt him. Ri Boku prioritised defence and took the first opening he got in a split second. I'd say that reflects Ri Boku's skill as a warrior, not his shortcomings.

Regardless of what you want to assign Shu Ma, if you do it based on feats, then you're going to have to acknowledge A Kou's feats as clearly being better than that of someone with STR 91. The same would have to go for Shi You, who is way more impressive than Shu Ma.

Zenou is said to be 93.

So is Ou Sen, and Kan Ki has only ever used Zenou one way: to come crashing down on the enemy general's head.

I would have zero doubt Ou Sen would trap Zenou into a vicious kill box.

Kanki officers are superior to the Ousen officers.

Definitely not.

Ou Sen's officers have better stats across the board. They're smarter and better leaders. And as established, they can cooperate as the drop of a hat to complete high level tactics.

A Kou STR 91 LDR 89 INT 87 EXP B
Den Ri MI STR 80 LDR 89 INT 91 EXP B
Sou'Ou STR 91 LDR 87 INT 89 EXP B
Shi You STR 91 LDR 81 INT 83 EXP B
--
Ma Ron STR 79 LDR 86 INT 90 EXP B
Koku'Ou STR 82 LDR 85 INT 85 EXP B
Rin Gyoku STR 83 LDR 82 INT 88 EXP B
Ogiko STR 84 LDR 50 INT 5 EXP B
Zenou STR 93 LDR 70 INT 65 EXP C

And like I said, if you want to disregard the stats and go based off feats, that cuts both ways and simply favours the Ou Sen Army even more.

As for common soldiers, they are definitely not as disciplined in strategy and formation, but the Zenou clan itself is said to have destructive power on par with the Moubu army, which arguably counteracts that.

The Zenou clan was tiny to begin with, no more than a 100-Man Unit at most (based on the 200-Man Shu Ma Clan being "on par").

They would break through any cage Ou Sen could throw over them, but not through his defences. The Zenou clan isn't the game changer they usually are against the Ou Sen Army. Mighty as the Zenou clan was (it's just Zenou now), they could still be taken down with arrows. The Ou Sen Army would have been more than equipped to deal with them at their full strength.

Spoiler

 

[Great General Kanki]

OK, but that wasn't the argument. I never stated anything to the contrary. This is the quote you replied to.


Nowhere does that suggest Kan Ki doesn't deserve any credit for his involvement in Eikyuu or anything else. I'd like to see you try arguing otherwise, but I'd settle for an debate on the merits of what I actually posted.

I'd also like to see you engage with the points I made on the circumstances of Ko Chou's defeat. You seem to acknowledge there are others that deserve credit for that victory, so how do you propose Kan Ki would give Ri Boku "the Ko Chou treatment" in a scenario such as you described, without the assistance of those that were so instrumental in taking down Ko Chou?


I'd certainly like to see you try to justify the "no question" part.

Ch 741 even outright states Ri Boku was only in the mindset to be ambushed because Gian had already fallen under his nose - a feat Shin orchestrated without Kan Ki's involvement.

Spoiler

No, not false.

Just on STR alone, it's clear the Ou Sen Army officers are stronger fighters on average.

The Kan Ki Army has: Kan Ki (93), Zenou (93), Ogiko (84), Rin Gyoku (83), Koku'Ou (82) and Ma Ron (79).

The Ou Sen Army has: Ou Sen (93), A Kou (91), Shi You (91), Sou'Ou (85) and Den Ri Mi (80).

That's without even getting into how their soldiers are all elites, deeply loyal, highly disciplined and exceptionally well armed, prepared and trained. All of Ou Sen's armies can pull off high level tactics and strategy independently of each other and flawless coordinate at the drop of a hat.

Spoiler

lol, you can assume Shu Ma is a 92 if you'd like. I certainly do not agree with that assessment.

Ri Boku was on the backfoot right after intercepting a killing blow meant for Kaine. Shu Ma was dual-wielding, i.e. he possessed more ways to hurt Ri Boku than Ri Boku had to hurt him. Ri Boku prioritised defence and took the first opening he got in a split second. I'd say that reflects Ri Boku's skill as a warrior, not his shortcomings.

Regardless of what you want to assign Shu Ma, if you do it based on feats, then you're going to have to acknowledge A Kou's feats as clearly being better than that of someone with STR 91. The same would have to go for Shi You, who is way more impressive than Shu Ma.



So is Ou Sen, and Kan Ki has only ever used Zenou one way: to come crashing down on the enemy general's head.

I would have zero doubt Ou Sen would trap Zenou into a vicious kill box.



Definitely not.

Ou Sen's officers have better stats across the board. They're smarter and better leaders. And as established, they can cooperate as the drop of a hat to complete high level tactics.

A Kou STR 91 LDR 89 INT 87 EXP B
Den Ri MI STR 80 LDR 89 INT 91 EXP B
Sou'Ou STR 91 LDR 87 INT 89 EXP B
Shi You STR 91 LDR 81 INT 83 EXP B
--
Ma Ron STR 79 LDR 86 INT 90 EXP B
Koku'Ou STR 82 LDR 85 INT 85 EXP B
Rin Gyoku STR 83 LDR 82 INT 88 EXP B
Ogiko STR 84 LDR 50 INT 5 EXP B
Zenou STR 93 LDR 70 INT 65 EXP C

And like I said, if you want to disregard the stats and go based off feats, that cuts both ways and simply favours the Ou Sen Army even more.



The Zenou clan was tiny to begin with, no more than a 100-Man Unit at most (based on the 200-Man Shu Ma Clan being "on par").

They would break through any cage Ou Sen could throw over them, but not through his defences. The Zenou clan isn't the game changer they usually are against the Ou Sen Army. Mighty as the Zenou clan was (it's just Zenou now), they could still be taken down with arrows. The Ou Sen Army would have been more than equipped to deal with them at their full strength.

Spoiler

I'm sure Zenou is (was?) 1k at the absolute minimum. Somewhere in the 1-3k range.

 

[Rumble]

I'm sure Zenou is (was?) 1k at the absolute minimum. Somewhere in the 1-3k range.

Nope.

The Zenou clan is tiny. Always have been.

 

[Great General Kanki]

Nope.

The Zenou clan is tiny. Always have been.

Shuma have 200 and Zenou is much bigger, so there's that. There's never been any indication that they're tiny (obviously they aren't 5k+)

 

[FutureWarrior123]

Nowhere does that suggest Kan Ki doesn't deserve any credit for his involvement in Eikyuu or anything else. I'd like to see you try arguing otherwise.

Seems like you didn't quite understand the point I was getting across, unfortunately.

We both agree that everyone involved was instrumental to the operation. Which leads to what I wrote next which for some reason you chose not to address...

Just like Shin and Heki deserve credit for saving Duke Hyou's life by Gokei's pincer on their own volition.

Just like Shin and Ouhon deserve credit for securing the right flank on their own to allow Ousen to win Shukai Plains

How exactly is the way Kanki conducted his strategy any different to what we've seen other top tier generals do? Do these instances not indicate a similar amount of credit being given?

I'm assuming your argument is that Kanki is more reliant on his subordinates to win their own battles. I disagree.

Ou Sen outright says as much - that he pretty much won because of better "cards" - and yet, unlike Kan Ki, he was much more involved and deliberate in his approach to utilising the talents of the Q3.

Can you perhaps explain how he is more involved instead of just making a statement like that like it's common knowledge?

Regardless of what you want to assign Shu Ma, if you do it based on feats, then you're going to have to acknowledge A Kou's feats as clearly being better than that of someone with STR 91. The same would have to go for Shi You, who is way more impressive than Shu Ma.

I was humoring you since you prioritize stats a lot more than others, though I'm glad to hear that you are aware they aren't the be all end all.

I'd certainly like to see you try to justify the "no question" part.

I may, but I want to get these other points across first so I can reach an understanding.

 

[Rumble]

Shuma have 200 and Zenou is much bigger, so there's that. There's never been any indication that they're tiny (obviously they aren't 5k+)

I think it's fascinating you think the Zenou clan, a group made up of giant, mutilated berserkers possessing monstrous strength, exists in the hundreds, and not only that, but Shu Ma clan can be said to be "on par" with them with just 200 men. I know you know that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Logically speaking, the Shu Ma are "on par" because they're twice as big as the Zenou clan. A 100 monsters somewhat matched by 200 assassins.

The Zenou clan has never appeared in great numbers. Not once since their introduction in ch 447 have they appeared bigger than a 100-Man Unit.

Seems like you didn't quite understand the point I was getting across, unfortunately.

No, I understood your point just fine. It just had nothing to do with anything I said or anything you quoted. You simply constructed a strawman that "everyone should get credit" in response to my assertion, which was:

Kan Ki's biggest feats have all required extremely heavy lifting and facilitating by multiple 6GG tier talents (and sometimes overtly by the plot, as seen at Eikyuu).

I remind you again, that is what you actually quoted.

The part that states Kan Ki's biggest feats having required extremely heavy lifting and facilitating by multiple 6GG tier talents.

As I see it, that is undeniable fact. Now, will you actually challenge the assertion you quoted instead?

We both agree that everyone involved was instrumental to the operation. Which leads to what I wrote next which for some reason you chose not to address...

I did address it.

Ou Sen outright says as much - that he pretty much won because of better "cards" - and yet, unlike Kan Ki, he was much more involved and deliberate in his approach to utilising the talents of the Q3.

I simply didn't elaborate then because you had yet to actually acknowledge my assertion, which I reiterate was: Kan Ki's biggest feats have required extremely heavy lifting and facilitating by multiple 6GG tier talents.

More on that below.

How exactly is the way Kanki conducted his strategy any different to what we've seen other top tier generals do? Do these instances not indicate a similar amount of credit being given?

Kan Ki has only tasked the Q3 with achieving the impossible and hasn't lifted a finger to help or given any instructions.

To use the one example you keep running away from addressing - Kan Ki had no involvement in how they took Eikyuu beyond simply ordering them to do it.

I'd like you finally address that one example before we move on to others. At some point, I trust you will acknowledge the fact I am backing up my points with evidence and have corrected you several times now.

Can you perhaps explain how he is more involved instead of just making a statement like that like it's common knowledge?

Forgive me, I was under the impression you had read the manga.

Ou Sen doesn't take a shit without meticulously planning how to wipe. He knew exactly what he was doing with the Q3 every step of the way. He trusted Mou Ten would awaken the left and took a more indirect approach to provoke the same out of the Hi Shin and Gyoku Hou units. Everything he did was deliberate. Not that you will acknowledge evidence:

Spoiler

I'm a very openminded person when it comes to hearing differing opinions, but I need to be convinced of it. Help me out here.

You're not open-mined, you are disingenuous and doing all you can to avoid admitting the many times you've been wrong thus far.

At this point, you've yet to address the assertion you quoted, explained how Ri Boku would get the "Ko Chou treatment" under the circumstances you described, or acknowledged the arguments I have rebutted (thoroughly, I might add), with evidence.

You've literally run from every argument you've entertained and you want to pretend like I don't see it. That's... bizarre.

I was humoring you since you prioritize stats a lot more than others, though I'm glad to hear that you are aware they aren't the be all end all.

Is that what you were doing? Is that why you claimed Kan Ki had better officers and invoked the stats to do it? Weird.

If you consider stats objective, this is false.

You will find nowhere in my post history any indication that I consider stats as anything but inherently arbitrary and of limited worth beyond snapshots of the author's perception. As with all of your strawmen, I challenge you to find what you claimed to be arguing against.

I may, but I want to get these other points across first so I can reach an understanding.

lol, you "may" also grow a spine and face the arguments you've made. Failing that, you "may" want to consider putting on your big boy pants and simply admitting you were wrong. It's okay, you're not going to spontaneously combust because you were wrong on the internet.

 

[Great General Kanki]

I think it's fascinating you think the Zenou clan, a group made up of giant, mutilated berserkers possessing monstrous strength, exists in the hundreds, and not only that, but Shu Ma clan can be said to be "on par" with them with just 200 men. I know you know that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Logically speaking, the Shu Ma are "on par" because they're twice as big as the Zenou clan. A 100 monsters somewhat matched by 200 assassins.

The Zenou clan has never appeared in great numbers. Not once since their introduction in ch 447 have they appeared bigger than a 100-Man Unit.

You have misinterpreted that hype.

The Shuma clan are pound for pound or individually, on par with the Zenou clan. They are a small clan though. They don't have the numbers of the Zenou clan. That's why it is the Zenou clan, who have both power and number, who are used as the primary, unstoppable force of the Kanki army.

Zenou clan absolutely have larger numbers than the Shuma clan. There's probably a sizeable gap as well - which doesn't mean too much due to the small size of Shuma. Obviously, this is possibly not the case after Riboku's cage.

 

[Rumble]

You have misinterpreted that hype.

The Shuma clan are pound for pound or individually, on par with the Zenou clan. They are a small clan though. They don't have the numbers of the Zenou clan. That's why it is the Zenou clan, who have both power and number, who are used as the primary, unstoppable force of the Kanki army.

Considering the heavy lifting I have done in producing actual manga evidence in this thread, what do you say to exercising some good faith and doing the same?

The Zenou clan were introduced in 447. In 466 they spearhead an ambush on Kei Sha. That's the largest they've ever come across in the manga. They look no more than a 100-Man Unit. 200 at an absolute stretch.

Be a sport and verify it with your own eyes and then come argue with me, or at least admit you are way off about your perception.

 

[matt245]

I saw for a split second "Katakuri" instead of Kanki and after looking at who made the thread I got so fucking confused lmao

 

[Haoshoku]

I thought Kanki was due for something like this when this entire showdown started, the narrator indicated as much when this battle opened up. People thought it was the end of the road for Kanki not even two weeks ago lol, I didn’t see him going out like that. He is the only one out of current 6GG that can push Riboku this far tbh.

 

[Rumble]

Where'd your post go @FW123 - why did you delete it?

I wasn't expecting much, but certainly better than what I've seen so far from a thread dedicated to how awesome Kan Ki is.

 

[Owl Ki]

We have massively underestimated Kanki, we have never seen Riboku in a more desperate situation than he is right now. Let’s ignore Houken for a second:

When Duke Hyou broke through Riboku’s Ryuudou, Duke Hyou was still only a couple hundred men in the middle of Riboku’s 40K elites, it would’ve been quite easy for Riboku to escape from Duke Hyou there especially knowing how fast Riboku’s cavalry are, and Duke Hyou was very outnumbered anyway.

When Gekishin charged Riboku’s HQ, Riboku really wasn’t in much of a bad state, he could’ve just used his OP ass cavalry to retreat into his own reinforcements and slowly widdled Gekishin’s Quanrong down.

When Ousen pincered Riboku, Riboku could have just retreated which is exactly what happened, plus Riboku was also pincering Ousen in return.

But against Kanki…man. Riboku’s exposed HQ is currently being triple pincered by Kanki’s strongest clans like the Shuma and Zenou, and other skilled warrior bandits that Kanki has access to. Riboku cannot retreat, he cannot escape, Kanki has this man borderline checkmated right now, and Kanki orchestrated this with like 20K troops to his name while Riboku had 300K.

We have drastically underestimated Kanki to put Riboku in such a horrific situation which no General before now has been able to achieve. Kanki’s victory over Kochou was already completely shocking, but now Kanki is showing us why he was able to earn that Qin 6 rank, by very nearly checkmating the strongest General in the manga.

I won’t say Kanki is stronger than the rest of the current Qin 6 or the old Qin 6, but anyone who thought Kanki was the weakest of the Qin 6 needs to hop on the Chadwagon. Kanki is a true prodigy and genius despite having zero military training, and he is a skilled warrior to boot.

@SakazOuki @Shanks @God Buggy @Dark Admiral @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Jailer @Yo Tan Wa @MarineHQ @TheKnightOfTheSea

Yeah, Kanki has really proven himself in the last couple of chapters.

I would say that Kanki's greatest strength as a General is ultimately his ability to excel under immense pressure.

Kanki's greatest achievements have always come when he is on the backfoot. He is very much Riboku's opposite in this regard.

Riboku exceeds at making elaborate plans far in advance, with multiple backup plans in place in the event that his initial main plans fail. He attempts to cover every single scenario possible that he can foresee. Problem is, a man can only foresee so much and once his multiple backup plans fail, Riboku is finally caught out.

Kanki by comparison goes into a battlefield with a rough plan (spread em out, kill head honcho/destroy main camp). The difference is that Kanki will come up quickly with a new method on how to execute his rough plan even when his army is being mercilessly pummeled by his opponent. This "rough plan, new method" style of his gives him a surprising amount of flexibility despite sticking to a not particularly elaborate base plan.

Most Generals defeat each other because one General finally catches the other General out. The problem that other Generals have when facing Kanki is that catching Kanki out is no guarantee that they have actually defeated him.

Anyway, we have finally gotten to the point in the story when the new gen Qin Six finally spread their wings against the new gen Zhao Three and the results are sure looking as spicy as the tales of when the old Qin Six fought against the old Zhao Three. I'm lovin it.

 

[Great General Kanki]

Considering the heavy lifting I have done in producing actual manga evidence in this thread, what do you say to exercising some good faith and doing the same?

The Zenou clan were introduced in 447. In 466 they spearhead an ambush on Kei Sha. That's the largest they've ever come across in the manga. They look no more than a 100-Man Unit. 200 at an absolute stretch.

Be a sport and verify it with your own eyes and then come argue with me, or at least admit you are way off about your perception.

Why respond to me both here and on discord lol?
Your evidence doesn't suggest anything relating to the numbers of the clan, either for or against your argument.

 

[FutureWarrior123]

Where'd your post go @FW123 - why did you delete it?

I wasn't expecting much, but certainly better than what I've seen so far from a thread dedicated to how awesome Kan Ki is.

I decided to delete it because I could already see that the debate was gonna involve constant passive aggressiveness and needless jabs at each other, so I basically removed myself from the discourse by a deleting a post that would have only continued that cycle (it has remarks that you wouldn't have taken kindly too, and you would respond with matching it with some of your own obviously).

Believe it or not, I initially started the debate to give you the time of day cause I believed you had a lot of substance to your posts compared to a lot of other people. But I didn't plan on it turning into a scenario where I am met with snarky remarks with every reply you gave me. There are simply a million different ways I would prefer to spend my day to be quite honest. I’m done enough of that back and forth on forums in my teen years.

Why respond to me both here and on discord lol?
.

Wait there’s a discord?

 

[Rumble]

Why respond to me both here and on discord lol?
Your evidence doesn't suggest anything relating to the numbers of the clan, either for or against your argument.

I expected you to respond here.

But as you made very clear, you have no evidence from the manga itself, be it in artwork or dialogue, and have based your position entirely on conjecture.

You won't admit you can't support the Zenou clan exists in the hundreds, never mind:

I'm sure Zenou is (was?) 1k at the absolute minimum. Somewhere in the 1-3k range.

But you don't have to.

I decided to delete it because I could already see that the debate was gonna involve constant passive aggressiveness and needless jabs at each other, so I basically removed myself from the discourse by a deleting a post that would have only continued that cycle (it has remarks that you wouldn't have taken kindly too, and you would respond with matching it with some of your own obviously).

Believe it or not, I initially started the debate to give you the time of day cause I believed you had a lot of substance to your posts compared to a lot of other people. But I didn't plan on it turning into a scenario where I am met with snarky remarks with every reply you gave me. There are simply a million different ways I would prefer to spend my day to be quite honest. I’m done enough of that back and forth on forums in my teen years.

For the record, I did actually catch the post you deleted. It was a lot more emotive and indignant about my ego or whatever the fuck. Act as scandalised by my mean words as you like, it's obvious you're doing the most to avoid engaging on the topics.

I knew this was going to be the conclusion when you started deleting parts of your own posts and picking and choosing what arguments you responded to:

I'm a very openminded person when it comes to hearing differing opinions, but I need to be convinced of it. Help me out here.

I may, but I want to get these other points across first so I can reach an understanding.

As stated, you've run from every argument you entertained. You can't support you arguments, much less debunk mine, so this is what you resort to. Pathetic.