Who is the Number 1 General of Qin right now?

[Lee Ba Shou]

There's is no way Moubu is beating Ordo in a mountain battle with half his numbers, it's simply unthinkable with Ordo's much hyped mountain battle skills, and him having hordes of mountain tribes, and double the numbers
Moubu would be lost and ambushed at every turn, a mountain battle is his biggest weakness I'd say

But yeah, both of them have their strong points where they excel at better than the other
Moubu can do things on the field that master strategists be it Hakuki Ousen or Riboku cant do. I don't think any of them stands a chance against Kanmei under that war's circumstances, an open battlefield and numerical disadvantage
In those scenarios no general stands a chance against Moubu and Kanmei, maybe Ouki and Renpa but that's about it

Idk man. Ordo’s level is questionable. If Ousen could utterly outplay Ordo in the mountains, I see no reason any Qin 6 should lose to him in the mountains. Ousen’s defeat of Ordo was utterly crushing, he not only checkmated Ordo and killed all his elites, but he defeated Ordo on a psychological level because Ordo was too scared to hit Ousen from behind after that, which was ultimately what allowed Ousen to defeat Karin’s troops.

I don’t see any Q6 level commander losing to Ordo, even in the mountains. I think Shibashou would’ve beat his 20k with only 5k. Ordo is not that guy lol.

I still choose the master strategists, because at the end of the day a well crafted master strategy can seal the deal of any war

This may be true in reality but this is not how Hara portrays his own fictional war, and I think this is always why I favored Moubu > Ousen. In Kingdom, morale combined with martial might will overcome superior tactics and strategy. This is always how Hara wrote his battles, and it’s why Shibashou folded Ousen like a lawn chair despite being the inferior tactician and having half the numbers.

People also said Shouheikun was biased towards Moubu, which was also just a laughably stupid sentiment. Shouheikun does not operate with bias when it comes to the Qin military, Mouki told Ten this when they knowingly accepted a member of Ryofui’s enemy into the academy. Shouheikun ranked Moubu as Qin’s number one because Moubu was always Qin’s number one.

 

[SakazOuki]

Idk man. Ordo’s level is questionable. If Ousen could utterly outplay Ordo in the mountains, I see no reason any Qin 6 should lose to him in the mountains. Ousen’s defeat of Ordo was utterly undcrushing, he not only checkmated Ordo and killed all his elites, but he defeated Ordo on a psychological level because Ordo was too scared to hit Ousen from behind after that, which was ultimately what allowed Ousen to defeat Karin’s troops.

You seriously underestimate Ordo, I'm assuming you haven't read that part for a while, or simply never paid close attention to it
In an open battlefield or a massive campaign any Great six would crush Ordo. In mountain terrain it's a completely different story, Ordo is the number 1 Yan general solely because of that skill

His army contains countless mountain tribes that would give hell to any army on their terrain
Ousen was able to outplay Ordo due to his own special skillset, his forts are unrivalled in the series, the only other general with such hype is Hakuki. Besides that, Ousen is a special talent and was able to read Ordo like a book, that's not a skillset any general has.
Having half Ordo's troops is the cherry on top, he was able to ambush him and play mindgames in such dangerous terrain and managed to take out his strongest troops

YTW should be able to beat Ordo after an extremely difficult confrontational fight, Kanki does Kanki things and probably wins
Moubu and Tou don't get my vote in such circumstance

This may be true in reality but this is not how Hara portrays his own fictional war, and I think this is always why I favored Moubu > Ousen. In Kingdom, morale combined with martial might will overcome superior tactics and strategy. This is always how Hara wrote his battles, and it’s why Shibashou folded Ousen like a lawn chair despite being the inferior tactician and having half the numbers.

That would also mean Moubu, Kanmei, SBS > Riboku, Ousen, Hakuki
In a direct clash the big boys will naturally dominate
But that's not what the manga tells us. Hakuki is the most grand Qin6, Riboku is the top Zhao heaven, and Ousen is the most brilliant of the current generation, though later on it will be even more obvious

 

[God Buggy]

though later on it will be even more obvious

End of the series Ousen is like EoS Blackbeard lol. Both are overpowered mofos, both are within grasp of their objective of becoming uncontested kings, both getting stopped only by the MC at the peak of his powers.

Aside from the prime trio (Shin and maaybe Ouhon/Mouten) no Qin Six in the manga wants that Wang Jian smoke, you can bet on that💀

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

In an open battlefield or a massive campaign any Great six would crush Ordo. In mountain terrain it's a completely different story, Ordo is the number 1 Yan general solely because of that skill

Ordo’s troops are probably martially insane like Yotanwa’s or the Quanrong. We’ve never been told that about his troops but as mountain lads they should be very strong, especially now with the barbarians among their ranks too.

Besides that, Ousen is a special talent and was able to read Ordo like a book, that's not a skillset any general has.

It’s a question of level, not skillset. Ousen didn’t beat Ordo because he just so happened to have a skill set Ordo was weak to, Ousen beat Ordo because he is on an entirely different level from Ordo. Ordo was never portrayed as a Qin 6 level GG in any way shape or form, and thus any Qin 6 spanks him via their own unique methods of war.

The page you posted about Ordo’s mountain reading is cool and all but in no way does it show him as Qin 6 level. I don’t see Ordo posing a threat to any Qin 6 ever.

That would also mean Moubu, Kanmei, SBS > Riboku, Ousen, Hakuki

First of all Riboku > Hakuki and Ousen lol. But in head on warfare, yes this is correct.

Riboku himself said Renpa would beat him in an army vs army engagement. This is also why Riboku went through such great lengths and deception to beat Ouki. If Riboku could’ve beat Ouki in regular warfare, there would’ve been no need to cook up such a crazy scheme involving deception and all that.

But anyway, that’s just never how Hara has portrayed Riboku. Riboku’s schemes and leadership have always given him portrayal above guys like Ouki/Kanki/Renpa etc…whereas Ousen has never been portrayed above them.

Riboku is not purely a strategist anyway. He’s like a hybrid strategist and leader, he’s always earning the loyalty of super martial generals who he brings into war to complement his strategies. Ousen really never did this on his own unless the Qin command gave him authority over like Shin and Ouhon…whereas Riboku earns the loyalty of all his martial nutcases on his own.

So anyway yeah if Riboku were purely a strategist he would’ve probably never surpassed Moubu, but Riboku’s leadership is pretty much equal to his strategies.

 

[Cichy]

There's is no way Moubu is beating Ordo in a mountain battle with half his numbers

I'd say it's pretty much given he does. Moubu has the best offense in the history of Qin. Even if his opponent has the high ground his army should still overcome it.

Moubu would be lost and ambushed at every turn, a mountain battle is his biggest weakness I'd say

Ambushed? Ordo is not some meticulous strategist who would hide armies and use guerrilla warfare. In both of his battles he was very direct in how he is using his forces. Just because he has the ability to read mountain terrain doesn't mean he suddenly is guerrilla warfare expert. And even if he was, Moubu learned his lesson from Bayou and would be careful about how he's moving his army in a treacherous territory.

 

[SakazOuki]

It’s a question of level, not skillset. Ousen didn’t beat Ordo because he just so happened to have a skill set Ordo was weak to, Ousen beat Ordo because he is on an entirely different level from Ordo. Ordo was never portrayed as a Qin 6 level GG in any way shape or form, and thus any Qin 6 spanks him via their own unique methods of war.

The page you posted about Ordo’s mountain reading is cool and all but in no way does it show him as Qin 6 level. I don’t see Ordo posing a threat to any Qin 6 ever.

You look down too much on Ordo, eventually he will lead a badass defense against Qin
Unless it is Ousen who invades Yan, in that case Ousen will wipe his butt with Ordo, he will be a changed man after he resurrects his army
And Ousen needs a WHOLE LOOOOT of generals to devour just to regain his former strength

Riboku > Ousen

Maybe

Riboku > Hakuki

No chance man Hakuki is the goat, he's the real stuff from the legend
Never lost a war

Riboku is not purely a strategist anyway. He’s like a hybrid strategist and leader, he’s always earning the loyalty of super martial generals who he brings into war to complement his strategies. Ousen really never did this on his own unless the Qin command gave him authority over like Shin and Ouhon…whereas Riboku earns the loyalty of all his martial nutcases on his own.

So anyway yeah if Riboku were purely a strategist he would’ve probably never surpassed Moubu, but Riboku’s leadership is pretty much equal to his strategies.

You underestimate Ousen's leadership, Ousen had goons ready to infiltrate Gyou and destroy its granaries, the night before they did the dirty work they all gathered in one cornerstone in the city, and said "victory to lord Ousen"
In Hango, just look at the measures the Ousen army generals went through to make sure Ousen lives, So'Ou had to abandon the love of his life, Akou charged like a bull and crushed solo into the seika army, Denrimi gave his life on a fucking whim no questions asked..

And let me tell you this about the Ousen army, a lot of you might not have realised it yet
Ousen's generals know that it is Ousen's fault, but they literally cannot handle destroying his image..
@TheKnightOfTheSea @Owl Ki @God Buggy @MarineHQ

So yeah, Ousen is a pretty damn good leader in his own way, his HQ soldiers showed that well, they fought to the last breath to stop Shibashou's advance, and it did work eventually, Akou and SouOu arrived, but you know the end
They were pretty sad chapters ngl

If Ousen wasn't such a great leader capable of nurturing other generals loyal at his command, he would not have been as strong as he is
Akou
Makou
Sou'Ou
Denrimi
And their entire soldiers, they are all extremely proud of being part of the Ousen army
They all pay attention to his son and want his growth, for they know they have to continue the legacy
Ousen truly a goated man

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

You look down too much on Ordo, eventually he will lead a badass defense against Qin

The reason the “Kanki defecting to Yan” theory became as popular as it did is because Ordo is such a damn joke lol

Seriously there’s no way Hara makes Ordo a major antagonist and expects us to get excited about it.

No chance man Hakuki is the goat, he's the real stuff from the legend

Hara has already told us that Riboku is a level above him.

You underestimate Ousen's leadership, Ousen had goons ready to infiltrate Gyou and destroy its granaries, the night before they did the dirty work they all gathered in one cornerstone in the city, and said "victory to lord Ousen"
In Hango, just look at the measures the Ousen army generals went through to make sure Ousen lives, So'Ou had to abandon the love of his life, Akou charged like a bull and crushed solo into the seika army, Denrimi gave his life on a fucking whim no questions asked..

And let me tell you this about the Ousen army, a lot of you might not have realised it yet
Ousen's generals know that it is Ousen's fault, but they literally cannot handle destroying his image..

Ousen is not a bad leader by any means, but Riboku is way better. Seriously look at the guys Ousen has failed to recruit to his cause:

-Kyou En
-Mouten
-Ordo

Now look at some of the guys Riboku has successfully earn the loyalty of/manipulated them into service:

-Houken
-Gyou’Un
-Bananji
-Shibashou
-Keisha

Seriously if Ousen was a leader on the same level as Riboku, Qin would be seiging Kantan right now. Lol

 

[SakazOuki]

The reason the “Kanki defecting to Yan” theory became as popular as it did is because Ordo is such a damn joke lol

Seriously there’s no way Hara makes Ordo a major antagonist and expects us to get excited about it.

I'd put my money on it unless he faces Ousen honestly

Ousen is not a bad leader by any means, but Riboku is way better. Seriously look at the guys Ousen has failed to recruit to his cause:

-Kyou En
-Mouten
-Ordo

Now look at some of the guys Riboku has successfully earn the loyalty of/manipulated them into service:

-Houken
-Gyou’Un
-Bananji
-Shibashou
-Keisha

Seriously if Ousen was a leader on the same level as Riboku, Qin would be seiging Kantan right now. Lol

There's no use arguing who is the better leader of the two, they are completely opposite in their demeanor and ambition
Both are one of the greatest leaders in the story
If you want to say Riboku is a better leader I'm cool with it, but you can't really say Riboku's leadership is in a separate tier
Don't forget Riboku is prime minister and chief of army, that allows him to gain more hand
The way Ousen recruits his soldiers is old school, he teaches them a lesson and gives them a choice
This breeds a different kind of loyalty seen in the Ousen army

 

[Ninjashadow0209]

1- Moubu.
2-Tou.
3-Ousen.
4-Yotanwa.
5-Kanki.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

There's no use arguing who is the better leader of the two, they are completely opposite in their demeanor and ambition
Both are one of the greatest leaders in the story
If you want to say Riboku is a better leader I'm cool with it, but you can't really say Riboku's leadership is in a separate tier
Don't forget Riboku is prime minister and chief of army, that allows him to gain more hand
The way Ousen recruits his soldiers is old school, he teaches them a lesson and gives them a choice
This breeds a different kind of loyalty seen in the Ousen army

Riboku is not the prime minister of Zhao anymore.

But furthermore, Riboku had to earn the loyalty of everyone in the Zhao military. Riboku rallied the troops of Northern Zhao against Kanki, he convinced Seika to join his cause, he was able to earn the loyalty of powerful martial figures in Zhao like Houken, Gyou’Un, Bananji, and Shibashou, he also had to earn the loyalty of strategists/tacticians like Shunsuiju and Keisha.

Also reminder that Riboku’s own faction became criminals to the state of Zhao by rescuing him from captivity. The court of Zhao also views him as a political rival to the king and fear him usurping the throne lol. Which his faction has openly talked about, they want to make him the literal King of Zhao.

Outside of Ousen’s direct subordinates, he’s never had the ability to rally others to his cause like Riboku has. Ousen is a self-described “clumsy man” because he’s not the best at convincing others to join him. This doesn’t apply to Riboku.

Yeah Ousen’s not a bad leader but literally Riboku is one of the best leaders of all time, seriously he is comparable to Yotanwa and Gakuki statistically. Stat wise he is a top 3 leader and I think his showing in the series supports this.

 

[SakazOuki]

Riboku is not the prime minister of Zhao anymore.

But furthermore, Riboku had to earn the loyalty of everyone in the Zhao military. Riboku rallied the troops of Northern Zhao against Kanki, he convinced Seika to join his cause, he was able to earn the loyalty of powerful martial figures in Zhao like Houken, Gyou’Un, Bananji, and Shibashou, he also had to earn the loyalty of strategists/tacticians like Shunsuiju and Keisha.

Also reminder that Riboku’s own faction became criminals to the state of Zhao by rescuing him from captivity. The court of Zhao also views him as a political rival to the king and fear him usurping the throne lol. Which his faction has openly talked about, they want to make him the literal King of Zhao.

Outside of Ousen’s direct subordinates, he’s never had the ability to rally others to his cause like Riboku has. Ousen is a self-described “clumsy man” because he’s not the best at convincing others to join him. This doesn’t apply to Riboku.

Yeah Ousen’s not a bad leader but literally Riboku is one of the best leaders of all time, seriously he is comparable to Yotanwa and Gakuki statistically. Stat wise he is a top 3 leader and I think his showing in the series supports this.

Riboku is a great leader no questioning that
If I'm to highlight the difference between his leadership and Ousen's, I'll first look at what exactly these men are trying to buy loyalty for
Riboku buys loyalty to save Zhao and destroy Qin
Ousen buys loyalty to fulfill his ambition of creating a new kingdom, the dream of a madman

It is easier to buy loyalty for a grand purpose such as Riboku's, many of these people want to save Zhao
But how many talented and able men are willing to serve Ousen in creating his kingdom
So for him to have gained such an army with all its influence and spy networks, can only mean he's an exceptional leader
He doesn't take his ambitions lightly, he doesn't lose one second trying to build his kingdom
That by itself is what makes Ousen unique at the end of the day

But yeah, both are perfect leaders as far as I'm concerned

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Riboku is a great leader no questioning that
If I'm to highlight the difference between his leadership and Ousen's, I'll first look at what exactly are these men trying to buy loyalty for
Riboku buys loyalty to save Zhao and destroy Qin
Ousen buys loyalty to fulfill his ambition of creating a new kingdom, the dream of a madman

It is easier to buy loyalty for a grand purpose such as Riboku's, many of these people want to save Zhao
But how many talented and able men are willing to serve Ousen in creating his kingdom
So for him to have gained such an army with all its influence and spy networks, can only mean he's an exceptional leader
He doesn't take his ambitions lightly, he doesn't lose one second trying to build his kingdom
That by itself is what makes Ousen unique at the end of the day

But yeah, both are perfect leaders as far as I'm concerned

Well it can’t be denied that Riboku has had superior commanders loyal to him. Ousen had Akou who is Heavenly King-ish level, Riboku has had multiple Great Heavens / Great Heaven candidates join his cause.

If Riboku were just a strategist, I’d put Moubu > him but it’s the fact that Riboku is a strategist and a borderline King-level leader that makes him the strongest ever.

I mean Riboku would not have beaten Ousen in Hango if he didn’t have Seika win the battle for him lmfao. That is the power of leadership lol.

 

[SakazOuki]

I mean Riboku would not have beaten Ousen in Hango if he didn’t have Seika win the battle for him lmfao. That is the power of leadership lol.