General & Others Who still thinks Zoro surpasses Oden this arc ?
- Thread starter Kuro Ashi
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I keep seeing people saying Oden was sent flying by Roger and then was in awe by his clash with Wb to say Oden was far from their level but we forget ;
1) Roger sent Oden flying before Oden joined them on their final journey and that was 6 years before his fight with Kaido.
2)Oden didn't know barrier haki at that time and was clearly shocked by Roger's and Wb's barriers on their weapons yet when he returned to Wano,we see in the Scabbards' flashback that he now knows Barrier Ryuo and teaches it to them and they later use Tougen Totsuka with it,indicating Oden became much stronger after his journey on Oro Jackson.
3)The argument people don't like but which still hasn't been totally debunked,Oden said in his letter to Toki that if he doesn't take down Kaido,no one will be able to take him down for a very long time. He didn't specify it was only Wano related and when Oden mentioned those who can strike Kaido down in 20 years,he said they will appear in the New world,not that it would be necessarily in Wano like it is currently happening,indicating Kaido's death was not necessarily exclusive to Wano centered people but to all big shots of the new world.
4) Kaido groups Oden with Xebec,Shanks,Roger and Wb(only guys amongst the cream of the crop in ONE PIECE verse).
However you turn it around Oden is a solid top tier and no Fm level guy as indicated by Wb's reaction to Ace thinking he could have beaten a guy (Kaido) who took down Oden or even Marco (a Fm level guy) thinking he,Izo and Ace had no chance to beat Kaido(and no that wasn't only due to Kaido's commanders/crew being around).
I was in doubt before but Oden is mid top tier in my book at the very least and only very few people in the world right now(10?) could have beaten him.
1) Roger sent Oden flying before Oden joined them on their final journey and that was 6 years before his fight with Kaido.
2)Oden didn't know barrier haki at that time and was clearly shocked by Roger's and Wb's barriers on their weapons yet when he returned to Wano,we see in the Scabbards' flashback that he now knows Barrier Ryuo and teaches it to them and they later use Tougen Totsuka with it,indicating Oden became much stronger after his journey on Oro Jackson.
3)The argument people don't like but which still hasn't been totally debunked,Oden said in his letter to Toki that if he doesn't take down Kaido,no one will be able to take him down for a very long time. He didn't specify it was only Wano related and when Oden mentioned those who can strike Kaido down in 20 years,he said they will appear in the New world,not that it would be necessarily in Wano like it is currently happening,indicating Kaido's death was not necessarily exclusive to Wano centered people but to all big shots of the new world.
4) Kaido groups Oden with Xebec,Shanks,Roger and Wb(only guys amongst the cream of the crop in ONE PIECE verse).
However you turn it around Oden is a solid top tier and no Fm level guy as indicated by Wb's reaction to Ace thinking he could have beaten a guy (Kaido) who took down Oden or even Marco (a Fm level guy) thinking he,Izo and Ace had no chance to beat Kaido(and no that wasn't only due to Kaido's commanders/crew being around).
I was in doubt before but Oden is mid top tier in my book at the very least and only very few people in the world right now(10?) could have beaten him.
It does if you assume there’s at most two real fights left for Zoro in One Piece, which I do. It’s not like post timeskip has been awash with big fighting arcs where the Strawhats are pushed to their utmost. Luffy’s had that, the rest haven’t. Oda does not care about mapping out a progression of incrementally stronger opponents for the Strawhats each arc (and I’d argue never really has), he cares about getting the story finished.
They were two completley different fights. One was a one vs one where the end result was Luffy coming out ~= to his opponent.
This is a 5 vs 2, and none of them are coming out equal to Kaido at the end of it. I still don’t see Oden as being as strong as Kaido. We are going to see things from Kaido that’ll blow his performance against Oden out if the water.
Because he borrowed Whitebeard’s for plot reason. That’s what Roger asked Whitebeard- to “borrow” Oden for a year. It would be like Luffy needing to take along Shiryu for Laugh Tale, it’s not really reflective of how strong the Roger Pirates really were. Oden’s very unique in that respect. The closest thing to him the Strawhats could have would be if Law gets to come to Laugh Tale, as a D and an ally.
He isn’t, and won’t be. Shiryu will be the strongest number two in pirate history, same way Blackbeard will be the strongest. Until Luffy and Zoro beat them.
Yes, because what comes next is the culimination of Zoro’s entire character arc. This is only a step in the road. Big, massive step, but just a step. Surpassing Oden is something that’s only became a big deal this arc. Surpassing Mihawk and becoming WSS is Zoro’s reason for being.
Uh yeah. I think that’s been fairly clear from how Luffy’s the only one who’s been getting proper fights.
People seem to have this idea that Oda sat down at the beginning of the timeskip and planned out what fights each Strawhats would have and how they’ll grow through them. That blatantly has not happened. I don’t think even Luffy vs Katakuri existed in Oda’s head until half way through WCI. Oda doesn’t write by planning everything out in advance. He might have big moments in the story in his head, but he makes it up as he he goes along until he gets there. I’m pretty certain that Big Mom’s presence in this arc alone is something Oda threw in without planning, in order to cut down the length of Elbaf and get the series done quicker.
So Oda could well have had a big moment like Luffy and Zoro vs Kaido planned from the beginning. I very much doubt he had all the steps in between planned, and I’m not even sure that the other combatants we have in the rooftop were always planned to be there.
Why would I compare Zoro to a fellow Strawhat (and really, you’re talking about Sanji here, let’s be honest) and not the guys who’s he’s fighting alongside right now? Hell, take Law, post-skip he’s basically been a Strawhat and has had way more victories than Sanji. PH, the three characters that win fights- Luffy, Zoro, Law. Dressrosa, both Zoro and Law beat a Seat. Wano, Zoro and Law fight the Worst Gen and end up on the roof fighting Kaido. In comparison, Sanji’s had a series of skirmishes and psuedo-victories, but his only full, on-screen, unequivocal fighting win has been Wadatsumi.
I completely disagree with near enough every step of hownyou think the story is going to go, but that goes into a further “what is next for the Strawhat”, of which Zoro’s plot is only a part.
They were two completley different fights. One was a one vs one where the end result was Luffy coming out ~= to his opponent.
This is a 5 vs 2, and none of them are coming out equal to Kaido at the end of it. I still don’t see Oden as being as strong as Kaido. We are going to see things from Kaido that’ll blow his performance against Oden out if the water.
Because he borrowed Whitebeard’s for plot reason. That’s what Roger asked Whitebeard- to “borrow” Oden for a year. It would be like Luffy needing to take along Shiryu for Laugh Tale, it’s not really reflective of how strong the Roger Pirates really were. Oden’s very unique in that respect. The closest thing to him the Strawhats could have would be if Law gets to come to Laugh Tale, as a D and an ally.
He isn’t, and won’t be. Shiryu will be the strongest number two in pirate history, same way Blackbeard will be the strongest. Until Luffy and Zoro beat them.
Yes, because what comes next is the culimination of Zoro’s entire character arc. This is only a step in the road. Big, massive step, but just a step. Surpassing Oden is something that’s only became a big deal this arc. Surpassing Mihawk and becoming WSS is Zoro’s reason for being.
Uh yeah. I think that’s been fairly clear from how Luffy’s the only one who’s been getting proper fights.
People seem to have this idea that Oda sat down at the beginning of the timeskip and planned out what fights each Strawhats would have and how they’ll grow through them. That blatantly has not happened. I don’t think even Luffy vs Katakuri existed in Oda’s head until half way through WCI. Oda doesn’t write by planning everything out in advance. He might have big moments in the story in his head, but he makes it up as he he goes along until he gets there. I’m pretty certain that Big Mom’s presence in this arc alone is something Oda threw in without planning, in order to cut down the length of Elbaf and get the series done quicker.
So Oda could well have had a big moment like Luffy and Zoro vs Kaido planned from the beginning. I very much doubt he had all the steps in between planned, and I’m not even sure that the other combatants we have in the rooftop were always planned to be there.
Why would I compare Zoro to a fellow Strawhat (and really, you’re talking about Sanji here, let’s be honest) and not the guys who’s he’s fighting alongside right now? Hell, take Law, post-skip he’s basically been a Strawhat and has had way more victories than Sanji. PH, the three characters that win fights- Luffy, Zoro, Law. Dressrosa, both Zoro and Law beat a Seat. Wano, Zoro and Law fight the Worst Gen and end up on the roof fighting Kaido. In comparison, Sanji’s had a series of skirmishes and psuedo-victories, but his only full, on-screen, unequivocal fighting win has been Wadatsumi.
I completely disagree with near enough every step of hownyou think the story is going to go, but that goes into a further “what is next for the Strawhat”, of which Zoro’s plot is only a part.
@HA001
Correct me if I'm wrong but I saw some of your posts questioning and sometimes denying Kaido got any stronger the last 20 years due to Oden PTSD KAIDO experiences even now.
My question to you is if/When Zoro surpasses Oden this arc,would you accept Kaido grew stronger to the point he can fight an above Oden level guy(Zoro) and a guy atleast as strong as Zoro(Luffy) + 3 other high level guys(Law,Kid and Killer) at the same time?
Cuz' what I'm sure is despite Big Mom's presence,Kaido will be taking atleast all these 5 in the final round.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I saw some of your posts questioning and sometimes denying Kaido got any stronger the last 20 years due to Oden PTSD KAIDO experiences even now.
My question to you is if/When Zoro surpasses Oden this arc,would you accept Kaido grew stronger to the point he can fight an above Oden level guy(Zoro) and a guy atleast as strong as Zoro(Luffy) + 3 other high level guys(Law,Kid and Killer) at the same time?
Cuz' what I'm sure is despite Big Mom's presence,Kaido will be taking atleast all these 5 in the final round.
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I still see Oden as low top tier, so i did not think Zoro will surpass him now and still do not do so.
At the same time, people have to agree on the parameters that would indicate Zoro doing so.
Turning blade black? While we do not know the intricacies of how that exactly works, it does not change the fact that we have very similar guys with similar fighting styles with the literal same sword, and one manages to do what the other could not after decades of usage, so if Zoro manages to do so on his own, which like Celestial said, seems kind of far-fetched in this arc when Zoro still can not control it yet (when 18 year old Oden could already), but if he does it on his own, yes i would say Zoro > Oden.
Killing a beaten Kaido already? Not that i think it will happen, it´s One Piece, but it still would not mean matching or even surpassing Oden, since Kaido admitted himself Oden could have done so on his own.
Heck, Zoro matching Oden´s scar would not even entail matching or surpassing Oden since everything Oden did, he did on his own or nearly his own (11 samurai vs 1000 pirates, and it was mostly due to Oden, as narrator pointed out, that they got through) and went through a battle and still nearly killed Kaido, but at the same time, was nearly oneshotted himself right afterwards, similarly to Luffy was.
So yeah, for me Oden low top tier, and don´t think Zoro is gonna surpass him in this arc.
At the same time, people have to agree on the parameters that would indicate Zoro doing so.
Turning blade black? While we do not know the intricacies of how that exactly works, it does not change the fact that we have very similar guys with similar fighting styles with the literal same sword, and one manages to do what the other could not after decades of usage, so if Zoro manages to do so on his own, which like Celestial said, seems kind of far-fetched in this arc when Zoro still can not control it yet (when 18 year old Oden could already), but if he does it on his own, yes i would say Zoro > Oden.
Killing a beaten Kaido already? Not that i think it will happen, it´s One Piece, but it still would not mean matching or even surpassing Oden, since Kaido admitted himself Oden could have done so on his own.
Heck, Zoro matching Oden´s scar would not even entail matching or surpassing Oden since everything Oden did, he did on his own or nearly his own (11 samurai vs 1000 pirates, and it was mostly due to Oden, as narrator pointed out, that they got through) and went through a battle and still nearly killed Kaido, but at the same time, was nearly oneshotted himself right afterwards, similarly to Luffy was.
So yeah, for me Oden low top tier, and don´t think Zoro is gonna surpass him in this arc.
Weren't you of the opinion that Shiryu will be more of a trickery based opponent for Zoro and a skill check in certain aspects ? I recall that being the case from Orojackson, so corectly me if i am wrong.
What changed that now he needs to be the most formidable opponent, superior to Rayleigh and Oden, and stronger than a Zoro who two arcs prior is already stronger than someone who you would qualify as a solid top tier ?
No, i was talking about Luffy, that's why i list him making all those steps, because you are also comparing him with Luffy and not others with the heights you expect him to reach. Is it not convenient to want to take the best out of the Luffy comparison, but then fall on the others doing less to obtain less when arguing how much of the steps Zoro would need to be shown to take ?
I really don't see the necessity of Oden being surpassed right away, i'd certainly qualify it more as you called it "a leap of faith" in an earlier post.
We have the premise of a scar already made, with build up to open up said scar. That's not surpassing, that's doing less than the original, but showing great promise to eventually get there.
You have Zoro just obtaining Enma two weeks ago, and the promise of him eventually forging it into a black blade. Saying that it need to happen in Wano is unfounded, all the arguments used for that can as well serve for it happening later.
Think about it, Zoro's been wielding his other blades for 2+ and 10+ years respectively. Baking on his first black blade being the one he got 2 weeks ago is counterintuitive to say the least.
And then for the role he needs to play in this battle, and the known steps he needs to take forward, he does not need to surpass someone who you would label as a solid top tier already. He can at best peak into the top tier realm in certain aspects, make the big step into the top tier realm against Blackbeards crew, and that's more than enough to build the strength that would make him a credible contender for the WSS title in the near future.
What changed that now he needs to be the most formidable opponent, superior to Rayleigh and Oden, and stronger than a Zoro who two arcs prior is already stronger than someone who you would qualify as a solid top tier ?
No, i was talking about Luffy, that's why i list him making all those steps, because you are also comparing him with Luffy and not others with the heights you expect him to reach. Is it not convenient to want to take the best out of the Luffy comparison, but then fall on the others doing less to obtain less when arguing how much of the steps Zoro would need to be shown to take ?
I really don't see the necessity of Oden being surpassed right away, i'd certainly qualify it more as you called it "a leap of faith" in an earlier post.
We have the premise of a scar already made, with build up to open up said scar. That's not surpassing, that's doing less than the original, but showing great promise to eventually get there.
You have Zoro just obtaining Enma two weeks ago, and the promise of him eventually forging it into a black blade. Saying that it need to happen in Wano is unfounded, all the arguments used for that can as well serve for it happening later.
Think about it, Zoro's been wielding his other blades for 2+ and 10+ years respectively. Baking on his first black blade being the one he got 2 weeks ago is counterintuitive to say the least.
And then for the role he needs to play in this battle, and the known steps he needs to take forward, he does not need to surpass someone who you would label as a solid top tier already. He can at best peak into the top tier realm in certain aspects, make the big step into the top tier realm against Blackbeards crew, and that's more than enough to build the strength that would make him a credible contender for the WSS title in the near future.
It makes it seem like Oden still will be a match to him and capable of killing him.
But the notion of those 5 gangbagging Kaido in the final round actually contradicts Kaido not getting any stronger the last 20 years.
Tbh even if Zoro and Luffy take Kaido in a difficult 2 vs 1 while Kid,killer and law take on Big Mom,it still would indicate Kaido got stronger over the last 20 years taking on 2 guys above Oden.
That would be some massive growth to Kaido there.
But the notion of those 5 gangbagging Kaido in the final round actually contradicts Kaido not getting any stronger the last 20 years.
Tbh even if Zoro and Luffy take Kaido in a difficult 2 vs 1 while Kid,killer and law take on Big Mom,it still would indicate Kaido got stronger over the last 20 years taking on 2 guys above Oden.
That would be some massive growth to Kaido there.
You are right sure but From what we've seen already happening this chapter, all 5 sn only attacked Kaido so however it ends up turning out,Kaido's defeat can't end up being regarded as a 1vs 1 imo as he already took some of their low end attacks alone.
If Zoro and Luffy get involved with Big Mom at some point and have their stamina drained a bit,it will just get compensated with Kaido taking on Law,killer and Kid during the mean time lol something Oden too didn't have to deal with lol.
Let's see how it turns out buddy.
If Zoro and Luffy get involved with Big Mom at some point and have their stamina drained a bit,it will just get compensated with Kaido taking on Law,killer and Kid during the mean time lol something Oden too didn't have to deal with lol.
Let's see how it turns out buddy.