Powers & Abilities Why do people ignore power counters/matchups?

[Hurley Pirates]

While I agree that when considering a matchup you should always use fighting styles and weaknesses to compare opponents. The real issue is 9/10 in these prediction matchups in OP either one or both parties have yet to go all out on panel so it makes it harder to do that instead of just gauging their strength levels by these fan made tiers.

Thats one reason there's several others. Portrayal, posters agenda, favoritism, hype, disdain, status in story, etc

 

[Omaiwaa]

I agree with the concept of this thread, but do not agree Luffy has a matchup advantage against Kaido

 

[comrade]

The only "advantage" Cracker had over Luffy, was the fact that Luffy's punch was too weak to bypass the defense. Does Cracker have a matchup advantage against base Kaido as well, who is a brute? Kaido would tear through Cracker's defense.

Using wate fists also isn't an advantage against Crocodile. It merely allows him to touch Crocodile, but Crocodile could still use his DF powers to the full extent.

Kata said he won't consider Luffy inferior anymore after he proved himself and learned FS. And it was not just "a few glimpses". It was full mastery as proven in Udon, unless you believe his FS manifested in between WCI and Wano. That's why Luffy ran away after his G4 time limit and decided to learn FS.

Also, their CoC clash doesn't prove they are equal either. Luffy and Doffy also had an equal CoC clash and yet you believe Doffy is low admiral level, lol.

Examples of advantages:

Luffy vs. Enel
Akainu vs. Ace
Water vs. biscuits

 

[BOCCHI]

Match ups matter true, still the Cracker vs Luffy is by no mean an example of that...

Just cuz Luffy couldn’t reach Cracker to hit him doesn’t mean match up problem, it’s on him to get closer and win, but he wasn’t able to for the longest.... you don’t need to be as strong as Luffy physically and use his fighting style to be as strong as him.... each fighter can have their entirely different abilities and fighting style yet still be equal or on the same lvl. Which was the case in Luffy vs Cracker early WCI, Cracker makes up for his lack of endurance and prob physical strength with his lethal attacks, CoA and great defense.

 

[Ryuarashi]

Katakuri states he = Luffy and their CoC clash = equal. Yet, people still kept saying he was <= Cracker, and a few FS flashes made him Katakuri level. Hoooooleeeeee.

The beginning and the mid stages of the fight Luffy was not equal to Katakuri. Katakuri showed that he was superior in strength, speed which is before Luffy showed gear 4 and FS then he actually started doing something noteworthy vs Katakuri.

If Cracker was really = Gear 4, he wouldn't be hiding like a bitch behind his soldiers.

I'm pretty sure it was shown that Cracker went on the offensive vs Luffy, thus he was not always behind his soldiers like how you're trying to portray him to be. Unlike your Almighty God Dolfamingo, Cracker had enough attack power/Haki to damage Gear 4.

Besides how is it Cracker's fault that luffy never had enough attack power to break the biscuits without Nami's assistance.

Despite being so fast in Gear 4 Luffy never had enough speed to blitz Cracker and bypass his soldiers, this should have been the most logical solution in beating Cracker but Luffy simply couldn't do it even in Gear 4 because he lacked the quality to.

At the time Luffy and Cracker were on the same level Luffy despite both have difference strengths and weaknesses.

You need to stop bringing up Cracker vs Luffy, how many years has it been since this fight? this is just crazy.

 

[comrade]

You need to stop bringing up Cracker vs Luffy, how many years has it been since this fight? this is just crazy.

 

[Ryuarashi]

The dude is obsessed with this fight, not sure why.

 

[comrade]

The dude is obsessed with this fight, not sure why.

Technically, Doffy did the same thing as Cracker. Staying behind his awakened strings. Even more, he did so while staying at long range, which gave him a huge advantage. While Luffy had to fight his way through the strings and cover the range.

While Cracker was seen to jump out of his defense to attack Luffy (cutting his cheek) and from the background, the clash between Luffy and Cracker was described as "intense", as black lighting was being emitted from the forest.

But somehow only Cracker had the matchup advantage.

 

[Sentinel]

Technically, Doffy did the same thing as Cracker. Staying behind his awakened strings. Even more, he did so while staying at long range, which gave him a huge advantage. While Luffy had to fight his way through the strings and cover the range.

While Cracker was seen to jump out of his defense to attack Luffy (cutting his cheek) and from the background, the clash between Luffy and Cracker was described as "intense", as black lighting was being emitted from the forest.

But somehow only Cracker had the matchup advantage.

You know, sanjikun is that guy who consistently uses this A>B>C logic whenever his favourite character looks impressive but if it's a character who performed better than his wanking stuff, he suddenly cries like this: "iT's JuSt MaTcH uP cIrCuMsTaNcEs". As if Doflamingo turning an entire town into his element to attack Bound Man, a brawler, from every angle isn't a huge match up advantage itself, even bigger than Cracker's.

He's a lost cause indeed, lol.

 

[Veku]

No, Luffy had a matchup advantage against Cracker, Nami’s rain. Still couldn’t defeat him for 11 hours.

Cracker counters Luffy for being too tough? Same for Kaido....Luffy simply lacked the attack power to do work

Boundman has literally shown the best attack power among all high tiers, a Kong Gun was overwhelming Cracker in a direct clash and had even enough power left to destroy his soldier. A simple Kong Gun made Big Mom use haki and her arm was still rattled, basic G4 moves as Kong Gun and Rhino Schneider bypassed even Katakuri's superior haki- defense and send him flying:

Spoiler

Yet even a Kong Organ wasn't strong enough to get to Cracker's main body:

Spoiler

Even when the biscuits have been softened Luffy admitted destroying them is pointless, simply cause they reassemble too fast...

Spoiler

Cracker had simply a infinite wall at this disposal, perfect suited for one dimensional brawlers as Luffy, the biscuits being hard countered by Nami's rain, but Luffy still not being able to bypass them r simply proves that even further...
I personally wouldn't insist on that since there have been other factors regarding the plot, you have to take into considering , but heck if you take Luffyy's statement at face value, then KKG was useless as well.

Law would get easly past the soldiers, yet Luffy couldn't even with them being hard countered and Luffy having access to Boundman...
You could make a case for Sabo, Kuma, Magellan, Ace, Mingo, Morely, even med tiers as Perospero, or Pica that they would have better abilitys to deal with the soldiers. Are they all stronger than Luffy?

 

[comrade]

@Veku
how will Katakuri bypass the soldiers and break Cracker's armor? KKG aside, I think that with Zangiri Mochi, Katakuri has boundman damage output, given how it ripped out huge chunks out of the ground that dwarfed Katakuri (a 5m tall guy). And Katakuri is a guy centered around evasion in the first place. So who knows how high King's attack power is going to be. Maybe his CoA will be stronger than Katakuri's, and he will have higher attack power + lethality due to his sword. Not to mention his fire.

And I think both Jack and Queen would be able to stall boundman (again, no KKG) pretty well. Jack as a mammoth hybrid and especially Queen as a Brachiosaurus hybrid.

And of course, attack potency is not everything. If the punch cannot connect, it won't help Luffy.

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

Technically, Doffy did the same thing as Cracker. Staying behind his awakened strings. Even more, he did so while staying at long range, which gave him a huge advantage. While Luffy had to fight his way through the strings and cover the range.

While Cracker was seen to jump out of his defense to attack Luffy (cutting his cheek) and from the background, the clash between Luffy and Cracker was described as "intense", as black lighting was being emitted from the forest.

But somehow only Cracker had the matchup advantage.

Almost but not quite.
DD stood in range, but his primary goal was still attacking Luffy, and not build a wall and wait for a chance, which provided Luffy with opportunities.
It still took a G4 attack to stop a string in its tracks( rather create an opening through it), if he had several around him, Luffy aint getting through in his time limit, except maybe with King Kong Gun.

But in other words, he can do the same like Cracker, because if one huge string is damaged, he can instantly create a new one, and build a huge wall around himself.

 

[sanjikun]

Does Cracker have a matchup advantage against base Kaido as well, who is a brute? Kaido would tear through Cracker's defense.

Read the post, would you? It's literally the first sentence.

Unless the gap between two opponents is >= 2-3 Tiers in difference (i.e. Big Mom and Brook), power counter and matchups matter and MATTER A LOT.

You have to be within a certain range of someone for matchups to matter.

You know, sanjikun is that guy who consistently uses this A>B>C logic whenever his favourite character looks impressive but if it's a character who performed better than his wanking stuff, he suddenly cries like this: "iT's JuSt MaTcH uP cIrCuMsTaNcEs". As if Doflamingo turning an entire town into his element to attack Bound Man, a brawler, from every angle isn't a huge match up advantage itself, even bigger than Cracker's.

He's a lost cause indeed, lol.

Can you stop being an idiot? I have always said unl. Boundman > Doflamingo. Where is the hole in logic?

 

[Uncle Van]

Boundman has literally shown the best attack power among all high tiers, a Kong Gun was overwhelming Cracker in a direct clash and had even enough power left to destroy his soldier. A simple Kong Gun made Big Mom use haki and her arm was still rattled, basic G4 moves as Kong Gun and Rhino Schneider bypassed even Katakuri's superior haki- defense and send him flying:

Spoiler

Yet even a Kong Organ wasn't strong enough to get to Cracker's main body:

Spoiler

Even when the biscuits have been softened Luffy admitted destroying them is pointless, simply cause they reassemble too fast...

Spoiler

Cracker had simply a infinite wall at this disposal, perfect suited for one dimensional brawlers as Luffy, the biscuits being hard countered by Nami's rain, but Luffy still not being able to bypass them r simply proves that even further...
I personally wouldn't insist on that since there have been other factors regarding the plot, you have to take into considering , but heck if you take Luffyy's statement at face value, then KKG was useless as well.

Law would get easly past the soldiers, yet Luffy couldn't even with them being hard countered and Luffy having access to Boundman...
You could make a case for Sabo, Kuma, Magellan, Ace, Mingo, Morely, even med tiers as Perospero, or Pica that they would have better abilitys to deal with the soldiers. Are they all stronger than Luffy?

Missing the point.

Cracker was simply stronger than Luffy same way Katakuri and Kaido was. Luffu didnt have the AP to bypass their defenses and was too slow for Katakuri. That doesnt make them a bad match up for Luffy. That's like saying Kaido is a bad match up for King causes he's too strong for him. Law doesnt help this case since he has an ability that ignores defenses.

Hody Jones has a counter for Katakuri's awakening and it's obviously water...does that mean Hody can even put up a fight? No. He simply counters ONE thing about Katakuri. It's not an Akaini vs Ace scenario.

 

[sanjikun]

The dude is obsessed with this fight, not sure why.

Why am I comparing the MC's last 2 fights? What am I supposed to compare? Luffy and Kuro? How many on panel fights do we get in One Piece?

Luffu didnt have the AP to bypass their defenses

That is wrong. Luffy literally tells Katakuri "Your armament defence is no match for Gear 4." He also broke all of Cracker's soldiers.

was too slow for Katakuri.

No, he wasn't.... He had Snakeman. We can discuss "G2" "G3" but at the end of the day it's all Luffy and he can switch between them.

You are just terrible at analyzing fights. The second Oda decides to win fights with Snakeman and Tankman, Luffy has a matchup problem, because Boundman is his main/preferred form. Snakeman and Tankman are literally reserve for edge cases where he really needs to sacrifice everything for either speed or defence.

 

[Sentinel]

Can you stop being an idiot? I have always said unl. Boundman > Doflamingo. Where is the hole in logic?

Can you stop acting like a sore loser? You say many kind of nonsense, and this thread is just another one of them.

The fact that you do not even try to refute my statements and instead used some low level insults clearly demonstrates how disingenuous you are.
Just try it. Try to explain why it is wrong to use that A>B>C logic whilst you put Doflamingo above Jozu because of a single encounter when he paralized him.

Okay, Bound Man > Doflamingo? And Cracker matching it better was due to the matchup itself? Why?

 

[sanjikun]

Can you stop acting like a sore loser? You say many kind of nonsense, and this thread is just another one of them.

The fact that you do not even try to refute my statements and instead used some low level insults clearly demonstrates how disingenuous you are.
Just try it. Try to explain why it is wrong to use that A>B>C logic whilst you put Doflamingo above Jozu because of a single encounter when he paralized him.

Okay, Bound Man > Doflamingo? And Cracker matching it better was due to the matchup itself? Why?

I never denied Doffy had a matchup advantage in awakening and I never put him on par with Gear 4. You're one saying Cracker = Luffy or whatever sense and that's what I'm refuting.

It's clear as day, unlimited Snakeman > Katakuri himself. Gear 4 > Yonko Commanders.

Just try it. Try to explain why it is wrong to use that A>B>C logic whilst you put Doflamingo above Jozu because of a single encounter when he paralized him.

Yeah, a "single" encounter

There are a million ways to put Doffy above Jozu, starting from the fact he's also > Kuma, Jinbe, Law.

 

[comrade]

Unless the gap between two opponents is >= 2-3 Tiers in difference (i.e. Big Mom and Brook)

The gap between Kaido and Cracker is surely smaller than between Big Mom and Brook. Kaido in this case is one tier above Cracker. Especially since we are talking about base Kaido, which is not even his strongest form. And still, he would tear Cracker apart. And note that Cracker's defense was even watered down, with Luffy pointing out that breaking them is still useless as they will keep reshaping.

Current Luffy also isn't 2-3 tiers above Cracker, but his CoA is strong enough to burst Cracker's defense.

You are just terrible at analyzing fights. The second Oda decides to win fights with Snakeman and Tankman, Luffy has a matchup problem, because Boundman is his main/preferred form. Snakeman and Tankman are literally reserve for edge cases where he really needs to sacrifice everything for either speed or defence.

Then why did Luffy even come up with the idea of learning FS? Why not pulling out Snakeman directly. He definitely learned FS during the battle and did not just manifest it post the fight with Katakuri.

Jozu was frozen to the core after distraction. Doffy was frozen superficially. Not like you can break out of ice if your tissue and bone is turned into ice. We know Aokiji didn't care killing Doffy. It would be reckless due to the political aftermath of Doffy dying. You could argue that Aokiji did not hold back and Doffy covered his body with Haki. But that just means that Doffy was aware of Aokiji while for Jozu Aokiji needed distraction.

 

[sanjikun]

Then why did Luffy even come up with the idea of learning FS? Why not pulling out Snakeman directly. He definitely learned FS during the battle and did not just manifest it post the fight with Katakuri.

Because he wanted to "surpass" Katakuri and "beat him at his best". Luffy was only on par with Kata. He wasn't stronger.

Jozu was frozen to the core after distraction. Doffy was frozen superficially. Not like you can break out of ice if your tissue and bone is turned into ice. We know Aokiji didn't care killing Doffy. It would be reckless due to the political aftermath of Doffy dying. You could argue that Aokiji did not hold back and Doffy covered his body with Haki. But that just means that Doffy was aware of Aokiji while for Jozu Aokiji needed distraction.

When someone is about to murder my best friend in front of my eyes, I know I only "superficially" stop that person.

Look at that superficial attack covering that entire side of the island and spilling way out into the ocean

What's funny is that Aokiji's attack on Doffy seemed 10x more powerful than the one on Jozu, because Doflamingo was actually attacking and not just standing still.

 

[Sentinel]

I never denied Doffy had a matchup advantage in awakening and I never put him on par with Gear 4.

Okay.

You're one saying Cracker = Luffy or whatever sense and that's what I'm refuting.

I never said that, unless you can quote that part when I apparently said Cracker = Luffy.

What I'm saying is that Cracker did not simply match Bound Man due to these match-up excuses but from his own skillset.
Bound Man > Cracker in strength? Of course! Bound Man > Katakuri in strength? Yes. But strength is irrelevant if your attack cannot connect.

You were quoting Vegeta's statement regarding Katakuri and Cracker and yet, you put that match-up advantage as an excuse, this is just embarassing to be honest.

The manga already stated that Cracker and Bound Man had intense clashes in which we even saw a panel in which Cracker directly charged at Bound Man to hit him.
Saying Cracker was just hiding behind his soldiers like a coward when he charged at Bound Man HEAD-ON is a huge understatement. Neither Katakuri NOR Doflamingo did the same; they used their awakening to attack Bound Man whilst Cracker risked being in front of Bound Man with his real body whilst his BISCUIT SOLDIERS were BEHIND him.

Trashing on Cracker's cowardy sure is funny asf and so on but let's not act like he never left his place behind the soldiers, lol.

Yeah, a "single" encounter

How many times do I have to explain to you the circumstances why Mingo broke out of this ice?

Instead of dreaming about your own "reality" in which Doflamingo is low Admiral level, you just have to use your brain and should stop posting mindlessly some single panels which do not exactly confirm your fanfiction.

There are a million ways to put Doffy above Jozu, starting from the fact he's also > Kuma, Jinbe, Law.

In what way is he above Kuma? (purposely ignoring your mention of Law btw)