Powers & Abilities Will Zoro surpass Roger in power?
- Thread starter comrade
- Start date
I hate to say it but it is easier to argue for Shanks and Rayleigh not being swordsmen than it is for Roger not being a swordsman.
Because we have seen him coat his blade in Haki, we have seen him perform sword techniques that resembles Zoro's sword techniques and we have seen him have a duel with his biggest rival with a blade @comrade
Because we have seen him coat his blade in Haki, we have seen him perform sword techniques that resembles Zoro's sword techniques and we have seen him have a duel with his biggest rival with a blade @comrade
Yes, in that SBS he brought up WB, Shanks and Mihawk without a context. But in that other SBS, the fan specifically brought up Akainu's name to ask if X is stronger than Akainu, with Oda not only agreeing but going a step further to say X is even stronger than Kaido. That was when Kaido was already revealed. That doesn't make him strongest in history, but the strongest in the current story. Makes sense to refer to the strongest of the current story than reaching out to the past.
Stop being a cry baby. Mihawk's sword is obviously stronger than Roger's going by rank. He has a massive black blade, which is one of the 12 supreme grade blades, while Roger has a non black saber. So if you now add the assumption that Mihawk's CoA is stronger than Roger's, assume that CoC is only fodder control and take into consideration the fact that Mihawk's physical stats are massive as well, what stats does Roger have over Mihawk that could compensate for inferior CoA and swordsmanship in general, plus having an inferior blade?
Well. If Marineford didn't happen, we could argue that Whitebeard is limited to his weapon as well, right? We saw him clashing with Shanks using his weapon only. We saw him in the Xebec flashback holding onto his weapon, we saw him cutting down Ace in the flashback, we saw him clashing with Oden using his blade and clashing with Roger using his blade only. Maybe if Roger got Marineford level panel time, we could witness the entirety of his fighting style.
I think his Gura matching power was indeed advanced CoC. And we will witness it through Luffy when he will fight Blackbeard. Since his rubber fruit will be useless against the Yami's powers and Blackbeard will rain down Gura fists at Luffy's rubberless base body.
Stop being a cry baby. Mihawk's sword is obviously stronger than Roger's going by rank. He has a massive black blade, which is one of the 12 supreme grade blades, while Roger has a non black saber. So if you now add the assumption that Mihawk's CoA is stronger than Roger's, assume that CoC is only fodder control and take into consideration the fact that Mihawk's physical stats are massive as well, what stats does Roger have over Mihawk that could compensate for inferior CoA and swordsmanship in general, plus having an inferior blade?
Well. If Marineford didn't happen, we could argue that Whitebeard is limited to his weapon as well, right? We saw him clashing with Shanks using his weapon only. We saw him in the Xebec flashback holding onto his weapon, we saw him cutting down Ace in the flashback, we saw him clashing with Oden using his blade and clashing with Roger using his blade only. Maybe if Roger got Marineford level panel time, we could witness the entirety of his fighting style.
I think his Gura matching power was indeed advanced CoC. And we will witness it through Luffy when he will fight Blackbeard. Since his rubber fruit will be useless against the Yami's powers and Blackbeard will rain down Gura fists at Luffy's rubberless base body.
Dude, I haven't disagreed with a black blade being the result of CoA. I said that strength of CoA might not be the only reason but control/flow over CoA as well. Just look at Luffy's training. It was not about increasing the power of his CoA, but learn how to let the CoA flow through your fists. So yes, your Haki has to be very strong in general to forge a black blade, but it might not only be the raw strength of your Haki. Because again, I don't buy that Mihawk and Ryuma happened to have the strongest CoA in history, stronger than all the main figures of the world like Roger, Whitebeard and Xebec.
Why though? That part don't make sense to me.
If Oda is referring to man that embodies combat prowess, why does he have to chose someone from roster of people alive? Why didn't he use Whitebeard or Roger instead?
There are only three ways you can go about that SBS
-Either you take that SBS to face value and "Even Kaido" implies he is stronger than all in history
-You agree that the SBS only suggests Kaido > Akainu as it was in reference to someone bringing in Akainu
-You don't take that SBS seriously at all.
I subscribe to the third position
If Oda is referring to man that embodies combat prowess, why does he have to chose someone from roster of people alive? Why didn't he use Whitebeard or Roger instead?
There are only three ways you can go about that SBS
-Either you take that SBS to face value and "Even Kaido" implies he is stronger than all in history
-You agree that the SBS only suggests Kaido > Akainu as it was in reference to someone bringing in Akainu
-You don't take that SBS seriously at all.
I subscribe to the third position
Problem is when you say that burden of proof falls on you, you have to show me updated information of Roger doing anything that isn't swordsmanship for me buy that he knows anything but swordsmanship.
Otherwise what is stopping me from saying Mihawk himself is more than a swordsman, he is a mythical Vampire Devil Fruit user who can not be killed?
Also if it was just WB and Roger clash, you might make sense but we have seen Roger's named attack. It is a swordsmanship technique bro.
Otherwise what is stopping me from saying Mihawk himself is more than a swordsman, he is a mythical Vampire Devil Fruit user who can not be killed?
Also if it was just WB and Roger clash, you might make sense but we have seen Roger's named attack. It is a swordsmanship technique bro.
I'm not convinced one way or another.
From a purely hype/portrayal perspective, the Pirate King should still have the edge over the WSS, even if it is the Greatest Swordsman of All Time imo.
From a strength/feats perspective, I'm still not really convinced Roger doesn't fall under the category of a Swordsman. Maybe he has other fighting methods aside from Swordsmanship (don't @ me, idfk) that technically don't make him fall under this title.
So it's anyone's guess at this point. Each side will make valid arguments I'm sure.
From a purely hype/portrayal perspective, the Pirate King should still have the edge over the WSS, even if it is the Greatest Swordsman of All Time imo.
From a strength/feats perspective, I'm still not really convinced Roger doesn't fall under the category of a Swordsman. Maybe he has other fighting methods aside from Swordsmanship (don't @ me, idfk) that technically don't make him fall under this title.
So it's anyone's guess at this point. Each side will make valid arguments I'm sure.
The following events would raise the likelihood that EOS Zoro surpasses Roger:
- Mihawk reveals himself to be significantly stronger than most believe.
- If we learn that Mihawk can e.g. high diff Shanks or Sakazuki this should revise upwards our estimates of EOS Zoro's combat ability.
- Rayleigh is revealed to have been on the same level as Roger.
- If we find out that Rayleigh was at least a high diff fight for Roger, then Zoro surpassing Roger becomes more likely.
- There is substantial power inflation at EOS.
- If Imu, Blackbeard or another EOS villain demonstrates the ability to beat current top tiers at medium difficulty or lower we may have to redraw the tiering system for One Piece
- Consider how Madara broke Naruto's previous conception of a top tier and eventually a God Tier had to be introduced).
- We receive confirmation that Roger is a swordsman.
- This resolves ambiguity that works against Zoro, and should cause us to revise up our estimate of Zoro's combat ability due to the possibility of Zoro being the strongest swordsman in history.
- We learn that Black Blades are an important combat ability feat.
- Perhaps blackening a blade requires extremely strong COA, and those who couldn't blacken their swords simply didn't have haki strong enough.
- This suggests that EOS Zoro's COA would be at least a level above Roger, and makes it more likely Zoro is the stronger swordsman. It's very synergistic with Roger being confirmed a swordsman.
The following events would make Zoro surpassing Roger less likely:
- Mihawk is revealed to not be one of the top 5 characters in the verse.
- For example if an Admiral defeats him.
- This would revise down my estimate of EOS Zoro's combat ability.
- We learn that Roger was not considered a swordsman (at least as far as the WSS title is concerned).
- For example if there was a WSS during Roger's era and it wasn't Roger.
- This removes the principal argument for Zoro surpassing Roger.
- Post Wano Luffy can beat Zoro at medium difficulty or lower.
- Such a large gap between Zoro and Luffy Post Wano (where Zoro should get his biggest focus before the Mihawk fight) would reveal that Oda doesn't intend for Zoro to be close to Luffy in combat ability.
- We learn that Roger could have beaten Rayleigh at medium difficulty or lower.
- Similar to the above
- Zoro gets an extreme diff solo fight in Wano and does not clearly surpass his opponent.
- "Clearly surpassing them" would be like his fight with Daz Bones where he was pushed to extreme diff, but grew stronger during the fight to the extent that Post Alabasta Zoro beats Daz at medium difficulty or lower.
- This would weaken the argument that EOS Zoro would be a level above Mihawk.
- We learn that blackening blades isn't a significant feat of COA.
- Perhaps the strength of the COA doesn't matter but only control and the number of battles fought.
- This weakens an argument in EOS Zoro's favour.
- Shanks is revealed stronger than Mihawk.
- This makes it much less likely that the WSS title would apply to Roger.
The above two lists are not conclusive, but I think they demonstrate the kind of events that'll sway my mind on it. As for now, I guess I'll lean towards Zoro not surpassing Roger, but that's not a conclusion I'm confident in.
Last edited:
For me it's the option of Oda highlighting that Kaido is the strongest in the current story. Because it neither makes sense to me for Oda to reach out to the past, nor it does make sense to me that Oda randomly chooses Kaido in a question that is actually about Akainu. Why not saying "yes, an angry mother is even stronger than Akainu (the character you (fan) just mentioned)". Why pulling Kaido out of nowhere?
If it's more logical to you that Mihawk and Ryuma have the strongest known CoA in history among people like Roger, Whitebeard, Xebec & co., be my guest. But I choose not to believe that. I do believe that Mihawk's CoA is extremely powerful. But I can see things like the way you control your Haki flow playing into account.
Sure, Roger was a powerful swordsman with named swordtechniques. But it doesn't exclude the possibility of him having even greater powers up his sleeve.
You said Roger is stronger because he might have other stats above Mihawk. But with CoC being fodder control according to you and with Mihawk having stronger CoA, a stronger blade and thus stronger swordsmanship, while at the same having extremely high physical stats (just like Zoro is obsessed with training his body), what else is left for Roger to have a chance at being stronger than Mihawk?
If it's more logical to you that Mihawk and Ryuma have the strongest known CoA in history among people like Roger, Whitebeard, Xebec & co., be my guest. But I choose not to believe that. I do believe that Mihawk's CoA is extremely powerful. But I can see things like the way you control your Haki flow playing into account.
Sure, Roger was a powerful swordsman with named swordtechniques. But it doesn't exclude the possibility of him having even greater powers up his sleeve.
You said Roger is stronger because he might have other stats above Mihawk. But with CoC being fodder control according to you and with Mihawk having stronger CoA, a stronger blade and thus stronger swordsmanship, while at the same having extremely high physical stats (just like Zoro is obsessed with training his body), what else is left for Roger to have a chance at being stronger than Mihawk?
As we know, HA001 personally talks with Oda about the outcome of the Manga. He knows for sure Im is going to be the end boss instead of just being a prophet like figure, instead of Blackbeard being the end boss, and he knows that these events will take place after Luffy became the PK and surpassed Roger. He also knows that Zoro is going to injure or let alone behead Kaido.
Like I said this part doesn't make sense. Oda doesn't have to reach out way back in history, why didn't he mention WB or Roger?
Its not a present time scenario. Is Oda saying Mother is only stronger than old alive One Piece characters but mother be weaker than characters from past lmao?
You either take that SBS as a joke or go all out with it with Kaido > Primebeard otherwise there is an error with your logic
Again the issue is burden of proof. If Roger is at his best as a swordsman then external powers don't matter, as Zoro considers even likes of cabiji a swordsman.
I just think there aren't enough mental gymnastics available for me to classify Roger as anything but a swordsman same way Mihawk is
Its not a present time scenario. Is Oda saying Mother is only stronger than old alive One Piece characters but mother be weaker than characters from past lmao?
You either take that SBS as a joke or go all out with it with Kaido > Primebeard otherwise there is an error with your logic
Post automatically merged:
Again the issue is burden of proof. If Roger is at his best as a swordsman then external powers don't matter, as Zoro considers even likes of cabiji a swordsman.
I just think there aren't enough mental gymnastics available for me to classify Roger as anything but a swordsman same way Mihawk is
As we know, HA001 personally talks with Oda about the outcome of the Manga. He knows for sure Im is going to be the end boss instead of just being a prophet like figure, instead of Blackbeard being the end boss, and he knows that these events will take place after Luffy became the PK and surpassed Roger. He also knows that Zoro is going to injure or let alone behead Kaido.
That SBS statement was made in a point in time where Whitebeard died and we were in the Yonko saga, with Kaido being revealed and hyped up as the WSC. In this context it makes sense for Oda to further emphasize this instead of referring to a Whitebeard that died and is a remnant of the old era.
Still the question, why Oda mentions Kaido in a question that is about Akainu's power. Why would you call SBS bullshit when Oda uses it to elaborate canon information? Like the hierarchy of DFs, height of characters, etc. Why is it suddenly BS when it doesn't fit some peoples bias. If Oda, in tha exact same context in a question about Akainu said, that an angry mother is stronger than even Mihawk, what would your conclusion be? Mihawk = current strongest, Mihawk = strongest in history or SBS = bullshit
Still the question, why Oda mentions Kaido in a question that is about Akainu's power. Why would you call SBS bullshit when Oda uses it to elaborate canon information? Like the hierarchy of DFs, height of characters, etc. Why is it suddenly BS when it doesn't fit some peoples bias. If Oda, in tha exact same context in a question about Akainu said, that an angry mother is stronger than even Mihawk, what would your conclusion be? Mihawk = current strongest, Mihawk = strongest in history or SBS = bullshit