Versus Battle WorstGen’s Second Annual (???) Great General’s Tournament: Winner’s Bracket, Round 1

[Elder Lee Hung]

Alright everyone, with the brackets now out of the way, we can get into the more intense matchups. Here are the results of brackets:

So now we’re going to make this tournament more interesting by including subordinate generals and changing up the battle scenario a little bit. My goal is really to have every major Kingdom General participate in this tournament in some form similar to the last tournament, and more than anything to make this tournament fun rather than give automatic W’s to the commanders who everyone already thinks are going to win lol. If you’re upset because a favorite of yours got knocked out early on, they may just make a comeback as a vassal of another commander so stay tuned…

So let’s do this:

The rules:

Spoiler

-The rules are simple, vote for whoever you think would win the scenario presented. We will try to do more scenarios than just straight 1v1 army battles to keep it interesting.

-Winners will be determined by poll vote, so make sure to vote and convince everyone that yours is the one true agenda!

-I will try to do as much as I can to keep these tournament scenarios interesting, but definitely let me know if you guys have any cool ideas.

-You are allowed to use historical spoilers in discussions, but spoiler tag them and people don’t have to read them if they don’t want to.

I used a tournament maker app to keep the opening brackets random, but for some reason Duke Hyou and Yotanwa got immediate advantages. I do not know why this is but far be it from me to quibble about my own parameters.

Winners Brackets

Make sure to read each commander’s subs and armies!

Winners Brackets will take place at Dakan Plains. Each commander starts off on flat land with two large hills in the center of the field, controlled by neither party initially.

Round 1

Yo Tan Wa

-Yotanwa will have all of her Hango commanders: Bajio, Shunmen, Tajifu, Danto, Kitari, etc.
-Yotanwa will also be joined by General Heki
And 20k Qin troops of his choice.
-Yotanwa has 100k Mountain Troops in addition to Heki’s 20k Qin troops, so she has 120k troops in total.

VERSUS

Rin Shou Jou

-Rinshoujou will have his Ten Heroes, including Gyou’Un and Chougaryuu (let’s just discuss their Shukai Plains strength levels for simplicity’s sake.)
-Rinshoujou will also have 100k Zhao troops of his choosing. This will include Gyou’Un’s Ten Spears and the Rai’Un.

Who wins and why?

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @MarineHQ @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Rumble @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Topi Jerami @Shanks @Cichy @Bullet @mmd @Yo Tan Wa

 

[Bepo]

Rinshoujou will win, the quality of Rinshoujou's officers is higher than Yotanwa's and I consider him to be more intelligent. I'm not making light of Yotanwa's army since there's quite some capable fighters but ultimately they should lose.

 

[MarineHQ]

This is extremely difficult to answer tbh.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

This is extremely difficult to answer tbh.

Good good, let the trials begin

 

[God Buggy]

Oh man, let's go

I'm going with Rinshoujo and Zhao.

Yotanwa and her Mountain army are a huge force to be dealt with. Yotanwa is literally their King, she is a great strategist, a great morale raiser and a great fighter. The Mountain army also packs heavy hitters: the average mountain folk is stronger than the average plain soldier. The liutenants under Yotanwa might not be tactically impressive, but they are very powerful. Like I said, Yotanwa's army pack a lot of firepower and wages warfare in more unorthodox ways.

RSJ is an utter genius, the story makes that clear. He was a legendary tactician member of the Three Great Heavens equal to Renpa and could have just about anybody dance to his tune. The RSJ army was also one of the most impressive in the entire Kingdom: 10 fucking liutenants under the guy. While we don't know much about 8 of them (only that they picked impossible battles after the passing of Rinshoujo), Gyou’Un and Chouugaryuu are very well known entities and were excellent Generals. This Zhao army would packs a seriously enormous amount of quality.

Zhao will retain the tactical superiority in this match. And while the unorthodox warfare of the Mountain warriors can have its advantages, it's also lacking in other manners compared to the plain soldiers and their fundamentals. And this Zhao army is possibly the best one from their side in the entire tournament.

Zhao wins through strategical/tactical superiority after a hard fought battle. Yotanwa herself might or might not be slain but takes the L.

 

[mmd]

It will probably be one of my hardest choices
From the bottom of my heart, I want yo tan wa to win
But logically she will probably lose

 

[FutureWarrior123]

Honestly, Yotanwa.

Mountain tribes operate on nearly completely different rules and logic that a traditional strategist would not be able to easily predict the movements of. Even if on paper there is a gap in quality between subordinates, unique attributes can more than make up the difference. Even moreso if the opposing party has no prior information or experience of such armies.

This doesn't even take into account the differences in martial might, in which the mountain tribes have a clear advantage in. They are savages of nearly endless stamina and endurance.

Spoiler: 518

This doesn't even mention that Yotanwa and arguably a serious Bajio outclasses the strongest Zhao subordinate (Gyou'Un), so RSJ would best not allow him to directly confront those two.

I don't really know why we give Rinshoujou the benefit of the doubt here. I'm guessing it's him being allegedly equal to Renpa, which shouldn't be a sole qualifier to win matches against people you perceive to be below that level (which isn't proven).

Rinshoujou may be the superior mind but Yotanwa is both brawn and brains. I'd take the latter anyday.

 

[𝓓𝓡 . 𝕋𝒆ñ𝐦𝐚]

RSJ is undoubtedly a better strategist and has superior officers but tanwa has numerical advantage ,stronger average soldiers and is also a superior morale raiser so this is really a tough question to answer.

Very very tough 😭😭😭😭😭

I'll go with tanwa. Not only she has 20k numerical advantage. Her superior armies can probably just overwhelm Zhao through brute force and morale is a huge factor in the battle as proven numerous times in manga. Yotanwa obviously has upper hand in this department and she is also a brilliant strategist and possess great offensive power.

That said I am fine with giving the W to our great heaven as he is a great strategist. His superior tactics and superior officers might actually help him take the W and I also think great heavens>= qin great six.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Yes, yes, very tough matchup. You love to see the struggle. At first I really didn’t know what to vote for but really the more I look at this, the more I am confident voting for Yotanwa. Yotanwa is one of those commanders who is very slept on in the community, I really think her ceiling could go as high as the greatest commanders of all time. I think it’s no coincidence that Hara had Yotanwa end the Coalition War by personally checking Riboku, she really is quite overlooked by us here on WorstGen. So I’ll explain why I think she wins:

1. The Yotanwa army has an enormous martial advantage. 3GH level troops are going to be quite monstrous but Yotanwa’s entire claim to fame is how devastatingly strong her average soldier is. I would put Yotanwa’s average mountain lad on the level of a 3GH’s elite fodder, meaning Yotanwa’s elite troops are just straight up above Rinshoujou’s (not including the Ten Spears here).

2. Rinshoujou really doesn’t have a convincing martial answer to Yotanwa herself. Outside of Gyou’Un, I doubt any of the Ten Heroes are reaching the martial level of Bajio, Danto, or Yotanwa especially. Literally Gyou’Un is in danger of just facing one of these commanders let alone all 3. We already saw Gyou’Un’s near equal Banaji getting stalled out by Danto, and Danto is arguably beneath both Bajio and Yotanwa. I doubt the Raigoku would really be an effective strategy against Yotanwa and her commanders, again just because Yotanwa’s elites are so damn strong, I’d put them above the level of the average Rai’Un.

So yes Rinshoujou has the pretty clear tactical advantage, but Yotanwa has the pretty overwhelming martial advantage here. And huge martial power and morale, which is Yotanwa’d forte, is consistently shown to be capable of overwhelming strategy and tactics in the right situations, and I definitely think Yotanwa is one of those commanders.

So yeah I’m going with Yotanwa pretty confidently. Rinshoujou will give her a hell of a fight and she may lose commanders but I’d give her the W here.

Oh and this is before we even consider Heki who of course would easily sweep this whole tournament if he were a solo commander.

 

[Shanks]

YTW. Mountain army surely is creating a distinction here but she also has strong individuals as well.

 

[Monet]

I think part of why many will choose ytw me as well because renshojo is more like rocks in op his capability and abilities are not known to us yet.

Although i will vote for ytw, but deep in my heart i can't see 3gg from Zhao lose vs ytw specially the old 3gg.

 

[RayanOO]

RSJ is clearly the better commander here

the man has insane portrayal

- 99 stats in INT
- 98 in leadership

The man is not just a genius he has insane leaderships

And his portrayal has equal to Renpa and his feats with Ouki army is really top notch

Same for his dream for unification that shows how important he was

RSJ portrayal > YTW for me

Now with Gyou’Un instinct that will bother YTW army a lot or CGR tactics that has no peers inside YTW army I think RSJ will win this

Yeah YTW army is busted as fuck but I think they will break their teeth against RSJ tactics and walls

I don’t underestimate YTW but RSJ is just that good

 

[Monet]

This is extremely difficult to answer tbh.

it's difficult because one of them has grrat value but not known to us readers .

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

- 98 in leadership

You actually make a great point, Rinshoujou would have been a morale raiser rivaling Yotanwa. Literally Gyou’Un and Garyuu worshipped this guy, his abilities at raising morale should be up there with Yotanwa.

Damn this is a tough matchup. lol

 

[Bullet]

RSj > YTW
His Vassals > YTW vassals
But again mountain troops > normal troops
Just look back at the Quanrong battle where a group of surrounded YTW troops slaughtered a group multiple times their number
Will need to think more about this

 

[RayanOO]

You actually make a great point, Rinshoujou would have been a morale raiser rivaling Yotanwa. Literally Gyou’Un and Garyuu worshipped this guy, his abilities at raising morale should be up there with Yotanwa.

Damn this is a tough matchup. lol

RSJ courage and valor was highlighted many times

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

You actually make a great point, Rinshoujou would have been a morale raiser rivaling Yotanwa. Literally Gyou’Un and Garyuu worshipped this guy, his abilities at raising morale should be up there with Yotanwa.

Damn this is a tough matchup. lol

Almost all his men killed themselves after his death

the guy was a god to them

 

[Owl Ki]

@Elder Lee Hung Excuse me but did you say Tanwa has 100,000 Mountain Troops?

No way can RSJ win this. Mountain Troops are basically worth twice as much as regular troops. An army of 100,000 of those guys is worth an as much as 200,000 Zhao Troops. These guys are so strong that they defy the concept of tactics in general.

I will partial quote myself from this old matchup. Lol.
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...urnament-winners-r1-round-2.3196/#post-253947

Very interesting matchup. Honestly, I am going with a high diff victory for Yotanwa for a few reasons.

On a side note, I am going to reuse some points from a previous post I made discussing Yotanwa. Lol.

I) Firstly, the average mountain tribe warrior is just straight up superior to every other average soldier from any Chinese army. An army of 50,000 tribal warriors was able to single handedly dominate a Zhao army that was nearly double it’s size at a number of 90,000 with contemptuous ease.

Even when faced with a numerically superior mixed army of Zhao and Quanrong forces such as this (remember that Quanrong Warriors are superior to Zhao soldiers).

Spoiler

The Mountain Tribes still decimated the opposing army despite being in an exhausted state.

Spoiler

Remember that they achieved that level of slaughter while starving, exhausted, grossly outnumbered and having suffered heavy casualties. Despite all this, they still had enough troops from this army to send as reinforcements to old Enpo to take the Quanrong city.

Honestly, if one Mountain Tribal Warrior is worth two Zhao soldiers then an army of 60,000 Mountain Warriors are worth an army of 120,000 Zhao Soldiers.

Considering how the Battle of Ryuuyuu played out (50,000 Mountain Warriors + 10,000 Qin Soldiers vs 90,000 Zhao Soldiers + an unknown but large number of Quanrong), this actually sounds about right.

Not only that but the entire Yotanwa Army operate differently to how the Zhao function. Zhao (and any Chinese) armies fight as units that are part of a greater whole. Mountain Warriors fight as a collection of warriors working together, usually in amongst their own tribe.

No amount of tactics or strategy can overcome the fact that every single one of your opponents soldiers are at minimum, worth two of your own.

@Admiral Lee Hung

While we are still on Yotanwa’s Army then there is one other advantage that the Yotanwa Army possesses over most other armies that has not yet been mentioned by anyone thus far in this tournament.

An overwhelming dread factor.

Mountain Warriors, through their personal strength and sheer brutality, inspire fear and terror into the enemy to the point that they can demoralise opposing armies.

Such as when 300 Mountain Warriors drove off and routed a supposedly several thousand Jin Army

Spoiler

As well as the Battle of Retsubi where Yotanwa crushed the morale of the Zhao defenders.

Spoiler

Demoralising the enemy is the quickest way to defeat them for if one’s opponent has no will to fight then they simply won’t.

 

[Rumble]

A HUNDRED THOUSAND mountain warriors?

Yo Tan Wa wins that.

She is a messianic level leader to her people, extremely well rounded and simply has more paths to victory.

Take out Gyou'un and RSJ will have to settle for a draw or efficient retreat.

 

[RayanOO]

Lee is giving more number to YTw because he knows RSJ is the better commander

 

[MarineHQ]

If there's one general in China that can rival Yotanwa in leadership it's Rinshoujou tbh.

He may have been a military general but from the beginning he saw way further than even the other legends of that era.

I'm still very uncertain but so many mountain madlads, so much sheer might versus the RSJ army that strategically is on another dimension.

I have even Bajio potentially beating Gyou’Un let alone Yotanwa but at the same time the second best strategic general Garyuu is already above the best mind of YTW's army.
Then there's Gyou’Un's instinctual tactics.

Lee started off with a banger lol