Zhao's All-Time Top 10 Generals

#1
Before this Zhao war started, who are the top Zhao Generals? Martial Might/Tactics/etc all included in being a general. Exclude Houken.

My list:

1. Riboku
2. Renpa
3. ShibaShou
4. Rinshoujou
5. Chou Sha
6. Ko Chou, Guardian of Kantan
7. Chou Haku, Commander of the East
8. Bananji, top deputy of the GOAT Zhao General
9. Genpo/ Gyou'un
10. Genpo/Gyou'un
 
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RayanOO

Lazy is the way
.
#2
Before this Zhao war started, who are the top Zhao Generals? Martial Might/Tactics/etc all included in being a general. Exclude Houken.

My list:

1. Riboku
2. Renpa
3. Rinshoujou
4. Chou Sha
5. Ko Chou, Guardian of Kantan
6. Chou Haku, Commander of the East
7. Bananji, top deputy of the GOAT Zhao General
8. Genpo/ Gyou'un
9. Genpo/Gyou'un
10. Gaku Jou
No Shi Ba Shou ? The guy has some hype
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
.
#4
Forgot about him, edited.
Rin Shou Jou had some big hype and I think without his early death he could have been the strongest of them all. Died too early... But for now I still place him higher than anybody not named Renpa or RiBoku.
Rin Shou Jou had guys like Chou ga Ryuu or Gyou'un under him and those guys had sky high respect for him.

I will wait for Shi ba Shou feats before putting him above him. But Shi Ba Shou is def top 4/6

Mine : for now

RiBoku
Renpa
RSJ
Chou Sha
Shi ba Shou (I will maybe put him above Chou Sha when he will show some feats, but i don't think he will go in the top 3)
Ko Chou
Genpo
Bananji
Gyou'un
Gaku Jou
(Bonus : Rinko because he is awesome)
 
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#8
He had the Akou vs Gyou'un/Bananji matchup, where he didn't show to be any inferior to Gyou'un. On top of that his martial might compared to that of Renpa himself.


In the chapter 555, where the discussion of slaying the weakest General on the Zhao's left wing was taking place between Shin/Ouhon/Akou/Ten, and such.. there is this panel:

From right to left, weakest to strongest. Some might contend it.. but I simply find it to be too coincidental that all the way up to Gyou'un it was weakest to strongest.. but then it came to Bananji , Hara said "eh just let it be", especially when the chapter had directly to do with taking the weakest out of them. So, I'm pretty certain this was meant to show us who the powerful one out of them was.

Also, add in the fact Bananji is essentially Gyou'un to Riboku. Riboku who is a bigger deal than the general Gyou'un served under. It would make sense that Bananji is superior. Then you add in him being hyped up in martial might right in the closing of the Shukai plains, and not being killed rather being saved for the 2nd Zhao campaign.


Bananji also came to the same conclusion as KoShou, so he's pretty great as a strategist as well and no joke. Mans simply didn't get the focus like Chougrouyuou & Gyou'un got this arc as they were going up against Shin & Ouhon respectively.

Gyou'un was a hype tool used for Shin thus he intially gave a bigger deal. Compared to Bananji who didn't recieve his big hype until end of the war.


How Bananji performs also depends on his mood. This was showcased when Akou got a hit in on him, and he just reacted out of reflex K.O'ing Akou, saying that he wasn't able to properly kill Akou since it was just a reflex hit. Then by the the time we see him at end of the war going against Ousen's little army, he's truly enraged, hence his strength simply exceeded Ousen's expectations and was remarked by narrator to be "Overwhelming".


@Admiral Lee Hung you might not agree with the reasoning. But above is the general reasoning for it, without going into hardcore details regarding Bananji's role in his respective wing compared to Gyou'un.
 
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#10
How do you have this dude in the list when he has nothing special going for him and you exclude Keisha that was considered top 5 and the closest to the 3GH seat by Ten?
https://mangadex.org/chapter/63366/5
Top 5 based on the information Karyo Ten has about them. Gyou'un and Chougryou were in retirement so they wouldn't be counted. While Bananji's strength was also fairly unknown until this war against the Qin, where he got to display his might. Shibashou was a mystery as well so Ten's statement def. doesn't include him.

So that's 2 generals from my list that wouldn't be counted in Karyo Ten's statement, as it's based on the information Karyo Ten has regarding the Zhao Military.

So based on my list of people who were renowned as Zhao's generals:
-> Riboku
-> Kou Shou
-> Chou Haku
-> Keisha

If you want to include Houken, Keisha would still be in there. But when you include 2 of the generals who was in retirement until now, and a general who's might to the world wasn't really expressed/showcased until now, Keisha wouldn't be in top 5 for Zhao.


Next is the statement of: Closest to the 3GH seat

If you look at the wording for Ten it's a statement derived from her experience, "It's not far fetched to believe he really is the closest".. She's taking an assumption. She's not saying it with certainty that he is the closest but simply taking a guess that it wouldn't be far fetched to believe that. If he's considered top 5 and Keisha has been impressive when they've fought against him she'd be right. Considering the little homie who accompanied Riboku and was against Yotanwa could also potentially be superior to Keisha, who also just "came out" in this recent war against the Zhao.


As for "nothing special going for him". He's one of the 2 generals outside of the Great Heavens to possess an epithet related to Zhao specifically; 1st being the Guardian of Kantan himself, 2nd being Chou Haku Commander of the East. As his epithet would tell us, he handles the east of Zhao (So Ten has next to no experience against him).


Despite Ordo calling him slow, he was able to take 2 cities from Yan, while Ordo was occupied with just a 5000 man force, all within a time before Ordo could even react to him. And based on Ordo's comments about him, we can assume they have some past history as well, as Chou Haku also appears to be of an old age.



It's def. a guess due to limited information. But I'm willing to bet on this guess though. Anyway though, post your top 10 list!!
 
#12
Top 5 based on the information Karyo Ten has about them. Gyou'un and Chougryou were in retirement so they wouldn't be counted. While Bananji's strength was also fairly unknown until this war against the Qin, where he got to display his might. Shibashou was a mystery as well so Ten's statement def. doesn't include him.

So that's 2 generals from my list that wouldn't be counted in Karyo Ten's statement, as it's based on the information Karyo Ten has regarding the Zhao Military.

So based on my list of people who were renowned as Zhao's generals:
-> Riboku
-> Kou Shou
-> Chou Haku
-> Keisha

If you want to include Houken, Keisha would still be in there. But when you include 2 of the generals who was in retirement until now, and a general who's might to the world wasn't really expressed/showcased until now, Keisha wouldn't be in top 5 for Zhao.


Next is the statement of: Closest to the 3GH seat

If you look at the wording for Ten it's a statement derived from her experience, "It's not far fetched to believe he really is the closest".. She's taking an assumption. She's not saying it with certainty that he is the closest but simply taking a guess that it wouldn't be far fetched to believe that. If he's considered top 5 and Keisha has been impressive when they've fought against him she'd be right. Considering the little homie who accompanied Riboku and was against Yotanwa could also potentially be superior to Keisha, who also just "came out" in this recent war against the Zhao.


As for "nothing special going for him". He's one of the 2 generals outside of the Great Heavens to possess an epithet related to Zhao specifically; 1st being the Guardian of Kantan himself, 2nd being Chou Haku Commander of the East. As his epithet would tell us, he handles the east of Zhao.


Despite Ordo calling him slow, he was able to take 2 cities from Yan, while Ordo was occupied with just a 5000 man force, all within a time before Ordo could even react to him. And based on Ordo's comments about him, we can assume they have some past history as well, as Chou Haku also appears to be of an old age.



It's def. a guess due to limited information. But I'm willing to bet on this guess though. Anyway though, post your top 10 list!!
Commander of the east isn't exactly an epithet, it's a title that describes his current position. I don't see how exactly this guy would be above Keisha. Ordo is a pathetic general, the curb stomp he got by Ousen and Riboku shows he's miles below them, you can fit various tiers between them. Yet Riboku was actually worried about Yan's advance on the east and was considering sending Kochou to help Chouhaku, depleting the western front while Qin was coming with 200k men! That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in CH's abilities.

Meanwhile Keisha was the original Riboku's lapdog. Riboku lost to him in simulation battles. He put Keisha in charge during the coalition against Duke Hyou and also had him face Kanki as well since he was in charge of Kokuyou in western Zhao. Both are superior opponents than Ordo. When you've got Qin on the west and Yan on the east where do you put your best commanders?

Place CH seems old. If he had 3GH potential he probably would've got the title already since Riboku's is essentially making the appointments.
 
#16
1) Riboku
2) Renpa
3) Rinshoujo
4) Gakujou
5) Chousha
6) Keisha
7) Shibashou
8) Kochou
9) Genpo
10) Shunsuiju/BananjiGyouun/Chougaryuu
I think you are sleeping on Chousha he should be on the same level as Renpa but Gakujou could only satisfy him to 65% even if he get better i don't see it going to +90% which i expect from a fellow great heavens
 
#19
@Admiral Lee Hung you might not agree with the reasoning. But above is the general reasoning for it, without going into hardcore details regarding Bananji's role in his respective wing compared to Gyou'un.
Damn how did I miss this? Lol

Okay, so Gyou’Un vs Bananji in terms of just fighting strength, I would say they are virtual equals with almost no advantage either way.

But if you pointed a gun to my head, I’m going with Gyou’Un Sama 10/10 times. Gyou’Un was outright shown to be superior to Akou (slightly) while Bananji was shown fighting equally with Akou multiple times. There’s really no way around this. Bananji could give Gyou’Un a run for his money but there isn’t much denying that Gyou’Un is stronger by a small margin.
Post automatically merged:

Also, add in the fact Bananji is essentially Gyou'un to Riboku. Riboku who is a bigger deal than the general Gyou'un served under.
Post will probably auto-merge but I had to address this quote lol. This quote is both unfair, and untrue.

It’s unfair because Rinshoujou died before he could reach the pinnacle of his career. Rinshoujou (an almost mythical genius) believer he could defeat all of the Qin 6 alongside Renpa, and imagine if he had done it. Such an achievement would be greater than Riboku’s.

It’s untrue, because Bananji is one of Riboku’s vassal generals and that’s really all he is. A mighty warrior general who Riboku can utilize depending on the situation.

Gyou’Un’s hype is beyond that. Gyou’Un was literally Rinshoujou’s Sword. He was, for all intents and purposes, a Great Heaven/Qin 6 level commander in terms of his offensive strength. Bananji does not have that hype or reputation yet.
 
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#20
Okay, so Gyou’Un vs Bananji in terms of just fighting strength, I would say they are virtual equals with almost no advantage either way.

But if you pointed a gun to my head, I’m going with Gyou’Un Sama 10/10 times. Gyou’Un was outright shown to be superior to Akou (slightly) while Bananji was shown fighting equally with Akou multiple times. There’s really no way around this. Bananji could give Gyou’Un a run for his money but there isn’t much denying that Gyou’Un is stronger by a small margin.
Martial Might:
Bananji's strength, depends on his mood or rather his "condition" hence Akou was able to fight on par with him. The more into it Bananji gets the stronger he gets, that's exactly what's pointed out to us at the start through Riboku. Even Riboku remarking about him being in normal condition:


The higher his rage the stronger he becomes. With his mood deciding how strong he is, unlike Gyou'un. So Bananji is essentially being set up as a character the more he gets into the fight and the thrill/rage of it the stronger of an opponent he is:


Gyou'un was never shown superior to Akou at all. Akou was shown being on par with a "normal condition" Bananji for just a quick minute. Then Gyou'un comes in with a cheapshot and gets his cheapshot blocked by Akou:

After this Bananji in his normal condition does the same as Gyou'un. Gyou'un never does better than Bananji here.


Then when Akou manages to slash Bananji's forehead, Bananji gets into rage and pretty much ggs Akou with a reflex swing of his glaive:

Akou had a comparison to Gaimou with Shin noting that the last time he probably took such a blow was more than likely with Gaimou. This established Gyou'un as an elite fighter of that level:


The comparison for Bananji was with Renpa himself, at the starting of the war:



Gyou'un displayed his strength outside full on away from his fight with Shin, he left in shock Akou's right hand man:


However, at the climax of the Shukai plains, Bananji leaves the biggest strategist on Qin's side, Ousen, in complete and utter shock at his strength. Despite him already being in action against Qin's right wing previously, so he would've know atleast how strong Bananji was.. but he was nonetheless still shocked:


Even the narrator makes sure to highlight that Bananji's strength was completely out of Ousen's prediction, so much so that Bananji's strength could be described as 'OVERPOWERING':

If you recall Gyou'un's big martial might moment other than the shin fight was when he was breaking through the strategies of Akou's right hand man with just martial might.


Bananji had a similar moment, but against Ousen himself, where he simply couldn't stopped no matter what Ousen's men did:


You see it's not until the very end of the Shukai plains that Bananji reveals his might. That's why Hara put so much stress into through multiple characters (Kaine/Ousen/Ousen's men/ Futei/Mouten/mouten's men) and the narrator itself. Even through Zhao's own men like Futei were sweating and shocked at seeing his monstrous strength:



So while Gyou'un was hyped up early in the Shukai Plains to serve as a growth tool for Ouhon & Shin, Bananji was getting slowly built up in subtle hype during the shukai plains right wing and then received his ultimate hype at the climax of the Shukai Plains, which now sets him up as one of Zhao's big generals for the 2nd Invasion.

And ultimately, this panel cannot be ignored:


You have the weakest to the strongest, with them deciding on to take out the weakest of the 4 Gaku'ei first. We then know Chougaryuu was inferior to Gyou'un. So at that point we have weakest to strongest.. and then in the end we have Bananji. Hara wouldn't just say "ehh gonna put Bananji in the end even though he's weaker than Gyou'un". This imo, made the heirarchy of the Zhao's left wing very clear. Bananji was the top guy.



Post will probably auto-merge but I had to address this quote lol. This quote is both unfair, and untrue.

It’s unfair because Rinshoujou died before he could reach the pinnacle of his career. Rinshoujou (an almost mythical genius) believer he could defeat all of the Qin 6 alongside Renpa, and imagine if he had done it. Such an achievement would be greater than Riboku’s.

It’s untrue, because Bananji is one of Riboku’s vassal generals and that’s really all he is. A mighty warrior general who Riboku can utilize depending on the situation.

Gyou’Un’s hype is beyond that. Gyou’Un was literally Rinshoujou’s Sword. He was, for all intents and purposes, a Great Heaven/Qin 6 level commander in terms of his offensive strength. Bananji does not have that hype or reputation yet.
- You're making this assumption based off of Gyou'un's belief of what his master could've done. In Kingdom every underling overhypes their master, it's simply how it works. As seen when Shin replied to him saying that Rinshoujou could've done w.e but in the end Ouki still would've slain his ass. Rinshoujou died in his prime, Riboku will more than likely die in his as well, Kanmei died in his, so on and so forth. Rinshoujou's case is nothing special here.


- Every general has the confident that he or she could beat the other. But the reality is reality. There's really nothing special about Rinshoujou's genius that we haven't already seen from the likes of Ousen, Renpa, Ouki, Riboku, Hakuki.. hell the Qin 6 are the ones who had a really mythical like strategist, the man who stood on Rinshoujou's level through pure tactics and was rumored to be the mastermind behind the Qin 6.


- Gyou'un was also nothing more than a Vassal General of Rinshoujou. His rival was none other than Kashibou, Renpa's vassal general. They're all vassal generals, even Tou was one lol. So being a vassal general isn't a negative:

The reason Bananji wasn't a big shot like Gyou'un is the same reason the Duke was never a big shot like the Qin 6. Because they spent their time in areas where they didn't get a whole lot of highlighting. With Bananji spending most of his time in the North in the mountains fighting against formidable Xiongnu who came to fear the man and started calling him a Demon.


I think you're underestimating Bananji's role with Riboku though, it's much more than just a mere vassal general. Let's look at his introduction, where the trio of Riboku/Bananji/Shinsuuju is introduced after Kanki war. This is the debut of Riboku's new deputies, much like how Gyou'un & Chougouryou were Rinshoujou's deputies and formed a trio with him:


Then during the meeting with the Qin King, the two are highlighted again:

At that point it's not really much different between the little dude's portrayal to Riboku & Bananji's portrayal..until this, where Bananji walks alongside Riboku while everyone is behind them by a good gap:

What was Riboku known for before the Ouki stuff? Subduing the Xiongu, a feat that wasn't accomplished by any other Zhao general ever. Who is the other famous guy who is related to fighting against the Xiongu? Bananji, the guy who the Xiongu came to fear as the Demon. Riboku & Bananji go way back mate, he's far more than just a vassal general to Riboku. He was the guy Riboku was telling the strategies for his left wing for which the whole wing would implement.

After the Shukai Plains, it's Bananji who takes over the Shukai plains Zhao forces and decides to call a retreat of all the forces, even requesting general Koushou to do the same.


But yea that's how/why I view Bananji > Gyou'un.
 
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