Zhao's All-Time Top 10 Generals

#21
Oooooo baby a good Kingdom debate!! And about Gyou’Un Sama himself??? Let’s do this this lol.

So I did read your entire comment, but I’m going to respond to some points in order, don’t think I’m not acknowledging some of your later points lol.

Gyou'un was never shown superior to Akou at all.
Okay right off the bat, I contest this.

Gyou’Un was explicitly shown overpowering Akou by himself, and look at the words of Akou’s men:
“Even Gyou’Un by himself is...”

This is a level of distinction that Bananji never received against Akou. Hara went out of his way showing Gyou’Un being distinguished against Akou while Bananji was not. Granted your “Bananji’s true strength” stuff may hold true but I’ll address that later.

The comparison for Bananji was with Renpa himself, at the starting of the war:
Two things about Gyou’Un which arguably put him even above Renpa in martial strength.
1.

If we’re going just purely by hype, this is above Renpa martially. Gyou’Un’s fighting strength was said to be an embodiment of Zhao’s martial strength even in the days of “prime” Renpa. This is Hara straight up hyping Gyou’Un > Renpa as a warrior (there are other reasons to believe this but let’s leave here for now).

And it makes sense as Gyou’Un was purely an offensive commander while Renpa was great at all aspects of Warfare. Gyou’Un’s sole roll under Rinshoujou was to be an overpowering offensive force, while Renpa specializes in every aspect of Warfare, not just offense. So it makes sense for Gyou’Un to be above him martially.

2.

And as you pointed out yourself:

(Renpa and Gaimou also have equal strength stats and I know you are a stats fan lol)

This isn’t the most ironclad argument ever (as you will undoubtedly bring up the Ouki stuff) but kinda similar to the above, it makes sense for Gaimou to be a stronger warrior than Renpa and Ouki, as his sole claim to reaching the Fire Dragon rank was his martial strength while Ouki and Renpa also had great tactical acumen.

In my humble opinion, Moubu >= Gaimou >= Renpa makes the most sense. Minuscule gaps of course, but Bananji would fall comparable to Renpa while Gyou’Un would be comparable to Gaimou.

You see it's not until the very end of the Shukai plains that Bananji reveals his might. That's why Hara put so much stress into through multiple characters
Yeah I’m fine with this, the issue is that Gyou’Un was portrayed above him for the entire war anyway. Greater hype, greater feats, greater role in the plot, etc. So even if Bananji didn’t show his full strength yet, he’d still only be bridging the gap and never looked outright superior to Gyou’Un.

And ultimately, this panel cannot be ignored:
Yes it can lol. This is the one point where I’ll hard disagree with you, the order with which hara decided to draw some panels (or how his editor decided to post them) is completely irrelevant. They probably just wanted to stick Gyou’Un and Garyuu next to each other for their relationship or something. Maybe it was arbitrary, who cares lol.

- You're making this assumption based off of Gyou'un's belief of what his master could've done. In Kingdom every underling overhypes their master, it's simply how it works.
You misunderstand,

I’m not saying Rinshoujou could’ve done something that Riboku couldn’t, I’m saying it’s unfair to say Rinshoujou couldn’t have surpassed Riboku because Rinshoujou never got a chance to even attempt what his plans were. And more on that:

- Every general has the confident that he or she could beat the other.
Wrong, on 2 accounts:
1. Not every general overestimates themselves. Riboku straight up said he could not defeat Renpa in open warfare. And it was that same Renpa who later called Riboku the most dangerous man in China. Not every general overestimates the others.
2. Gyou’Un straight up called Riboku “the strongest member of Zhao’s Three Great Heavens in all of history.” Straight up ranking Riboku > his former master.

It’s clear Gyou’Un was not blinded by some foolish sense of biased pride for his master, he knew Rinshoujou was great but ultimately inferior to Riboku. And yet he still though Rinshoujou could’ve defeated the Qin 6. Was Gyou’Un overestimating RSJ? Maybe, but clearly not by much as he seemed to rank RSJ < Riboku like the rest of us.

Next, you misunderstand what I was saying about Gyou’Un, or maybe I just didn’t make it clear lol.

So:
I think you're underestimating Bananji's role with Riboku though, it's much more than just a mere vassal general.
I never said Bananji was a “mere” vassal General, this isn’t One Piece lol. But Gyou’Un’s role is much larger than what a vassal General typically is. This’ll stray a bit away from the Martial Might convo but Let me explain.

We all know Gyou’Un was dubbed as Rinshoujou’s Sword, but what exactly does that mean? Well, a few things. First:


Gyou’Un is one of the most unique tacticians in the series: an Instinctual General who can read Strategic Types. And what’s crazy is that the better the strategist, the harder Gyou’Un is going to read them:

And of course second is his martial strength which I’ve discussed previously.

Gyou’Un fills an entirely different role for Rinshoujou than what Bananji fills for Riboku. Gyou’Un is Rinshoujou’s Sword. Take whatever meaning you want from this but the meaning I take is that Gyou’Un is Rinshoujou’s offense. Like, all of Rinshoujou’s offensive formations/tactics revolves around Gyou’Un as there center. The best example of this I can see is the Raigoku:

And this revolves around Gyou’Un and his men.

Bananji on the other hand, while useful, doesn’t really seem to fill any specific role for Riboku. Bananji’s main strength seems to be that he is primarily an offensive General, but Riboku never utilized him in the main story until Shukai Plains.

Against Duke Hyou, Riboku used the Ryuudou, against Ousen, Riboku used the Great Crane, and against Gekishin, Ouki, Yo Tan Wa, and Shin, Riboku’s “Sword” was definitely Houken and not Bananji.

So to Riboku, Bananji is a powerful vassal General that he can use when he feels he needs him. To Rinshoujou, the cream of the crop techniques and formations he was creating revolves around Gyou’Un as the center of everything.

Gyou’Un is, literally, the offensive power of a great General. Bananji is a powerful vassal General. His role in Riboku’s Army is inferior to Gyou’Un’s role in Rinshoujou’s Army, on top of everything else.

So yeah, I could go into more depth but this is already an enormous post lol.
 
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#22
Oooooo baby a good Kingdom debate!! And about Gyou’Un Sama himself??? Let’s do this this lol.

So I did read your entire comment, but I’m going to respond to some points in order, don’t think I’m not acknowledging some of your later points lol.

Aahahah, been a good min since our last one, figured I'd leave some of the Gyou'un stuff to you. And yea no worries I gotcha. Had to reread some good portions of the manga and do non-manga research for this reply, so took a bit time but here we go.


Okay right off the bat, I contest this.

Gyou’Un was explicitly shown overpowering Akou by himself, and look at the words of Akou’s men:
“Even Gyou’Un by himself is...”

This is a level of distinction that Bananji never received against Akou. Hara went out of his way showing Gyou’Un being distinguished against Akou while Bananji was not. Granted your “Bananji’s true strength” stuff may hold true but I’ll address that later.
This was during their 2v1 against Akou though bro. But let's not forget that Bananji had this in the same 2v1, where he in the same 2 handed downward strike as Gyou'un did more damage to Akou's helmet & head than Gyou'un did :

And of course it was just a reflex hit not even an intentional one. But not just that as mentioned his "condition" plays a huge role in how he performs, something that is unique to him specifically out of any character we know. It was an important of a thing to be mentioned by Riboku himself.


Two things about Gyou’Un which arguably put him even above Renpa in martial strength.
1.

If we’re going just purely by hype, this is above Renpa martially. Gyou’Un’s fighting strength was said to be an embodiment of Zhao’s martial strength even in the days of “prime” Renpa. This is Hara straight up hyping Gyou’Un > Renpa as a warrior (there are other reasons to believe this but let’s leave here for now).

And it makes sense as Gyou’Un was purely an offensive commander while Renpa was great at all aspects of Warfare. Gyou’Un’s sole roll under Rinshoujou was to be an overpowering offensive force, while Renpa specializes in every aspect of Warfare, not just offense. So it makes sense for Gyou’Un to be above him martially.
It depends on how you interpret it imo. Being a symbol of martial might can mean two of the following things:

- He was THE symbol of martial might for Zhao. Meaning #1 dude in terms of fighting for Zhao.
- He was one of the dudes who symbolized the martial might of Zhao.

I interpret it with the 2nd one. The reason being is Shin at coalition arc was also a symbol who represented Qin's martial prestige to the world, even though Moubu slayed Kanmei:
For me all that "note"/"comment" meant is that he was once somebody who was widely renowned as a powerful warrior of Zhao, not that he was the #1. I'll get into Renpa's sheer hype and the big difference between him and Gyou'un.

Ouki himself is an all-rounder unlike Moubu, but we all know who was the top dog in fighting in Bayou arc when it came to 1v1 dueling. Renpa himself also had an "offensive force" type of a guy in Rinko, but that didn't make Rinko above Renpa. And as mentioned in the previous post, Gyou'un's counter was Kashibou from Renpa's side, not Renpa himself, Renpa > Kashibou I think was made very clear in the Sanyou arc.


But unlike Renpa who had only the 4 Heavenly Kings, Rinshoujou had 10 dudes to their counter:


Yea I personally wouldn't entertain even Houken being above Renpa when it comes to martial might, let alone Gyou'un, i'll explain why down below.


2.

And as you pointed out yourself:

(Renpa and Gaimou also have equal strength stats and I know you are a stats fan lol)

This isn’t the most ironclad argument ever (as you will undoubtedly bring up the Ouki stuff) but kinda similar to the above, it makes sense for Gaimou to be a stronger warrior than Renpa and Ouki, as his sole claim to reaching the Fire Dragon rank was his martial strength while Ouki and Renpa also had great tactical acumen.

In my humble opinion, Moubu >= Gaimou >= Renpa makes the most sense. Minuscule gaps of course, but Bananji would fall comparable to Renpa while Gyou’Un would be comparable to Gaimou.
Aye aye, won't deny that I love my stats. But as you have seen multiple times from me my usage of stats is always in conjunction with the characters' status in the manga (Which is why Kashibou & Shouheikun's strength stats don't make any sense). Now now it seems my Gaimou posts in the Earl vs Gaimou thread convince you of Gaimou's martial greatness. Ahaha I jest.


But reality be Gaimou is really no different than Houken, though a bit weaker than Houken martially. He has nothing he fights for except for the sheering fun of slaughtering/beating people. Both Renpa & Ouki looked down on Gaimou because of that. The reason it's such an important factor is because it's what brings out the true strength of a character that allows him to be superior to somebody who is even superior to him martially, in a 1v1. Let alone characters who're equals. It was noted that Ouki was inferior to Houken in terms of physical prowess & fighting technique, but he was the superior combatant. And Ouki himself looked down on Houken and was confident enough to take him out.


As for Moubu we'll see, but I'm not willing to give him the edge over the Monstrous Bird of Qin & The Living Legend Renpa, just yet.


Yeah I’m fine with this, the issue is that Gyou’Un was portrayed above him for the entire war anyway. Greater hype, greater feats, greater role in the plot, etc. So even if Bananji didn’t show his full strength yet, he’d still only be bridging the gap and never looked outright superior to Gyou’Un.
This is not true, imo. He died before the main climax of the war ahaha. Greater feats, sure because he had a fight Ouhon & Shin, but that's really the only reason. Greater role in plot is a heavy no for me here.

Feats, if excluding the special highlighted fights that Gyou'un got:
- Gyou'un's main "unstoppable monster, tearing up the defense" feat comes against Akou's right hand guy.
- Bananji's "unstoppable monster, tearing up the defense" feat comes against the HQ of none other than the mighty Ousen himself.
- In the fight both were fighting together against the same opponent, Bananji landed a bigger hit to the opponent than Gyou'un with the same style attack.

Greater hype:
- One was compared to Renpa (very start of the war), the other was compared to Gaimou (The guy who Renpa looked down upon).

It's true that Gyou'un had received more flashy/grand hype during the main battle of the right wing vs left wing, but he didn't receive greater hype in the whole war. Hara was also actually dropping subtle hype for Bananji throughout the arc, but not making it "huge" because he wasn't going to be clashing against Ouhon or Shin, where as Chougouryuu & Gyou'un were. That's why even Chougouryuu received flashier hype than Bananji when it comes to tactics, even though when you actually dissect the war Bananji is on par if not superior as a strategist, and i'll get into this below.

Greater role in the plot:
Bananji was the guy who Riboku implemented the plants of the left wing through, thus making him the more important of the 4 generals automatically. He is also the guy who kept the bigger army for Qin at bay. He is also the guy who survived the longest thus was more useful to Riboku, and even after the war now made some crucial plot changing decisions:
- Calling for the retreat of all the armies immideatly, after Riboku got captured.
- In the recent chapter that's coming up, he's the main reason Riboku and etc are able to escape, because he holds the armies of Kantan at bay with his own army.



Yes it can lol. This is the one point where I’ll hard disagree with you, the order with which hara decided to draw some panels (or how his editor decided to post them) is completely irrelevant. They probably just wanted to stick Gyou’Un and Garyuu next to each other for their relationship or something. Maybe it was arbitrary, who cares lol.
Well we're looking for indicators who superiority between two very close individuals in prowess, that's why small stuff such as this matters.
It's not as simple as just them being put together thought.

- The chapter was specifically about taking out the weakest of the Zhao generals, which they deemed to be Gaku'ei. He is then shown on the right.
- We also know after Gaku'ei, Chougaryuu was the weakest general and he happened to be shown after him.
- The actual order of the generals eliminated in the Zhao's right wing is also in this very specific order, the one with the bigger panel of course being saved for the next campaign.


But if you're not into this type of stuff in potential mangaka's foreshadowing then I'll respect that and we can drop this here in our discussion.

You misunderstand,

I’m not saying Rinshoujou could’ve done something that Riboku couldn’t, I’m saying it’s unfair to say Rinshoujou couldn’t have surpassed Riboku because Rinshoujou never got a chance to even attempt what his plans were. And more on that:
Bro but you can just keep making that argument for everyone. Its not fair to claim Ouki > Kyou simply because Kyou died earlier while Ouki lived longer to achieve more?

Rinshoujou never got the chance, just as Renpa didn't when he got fucked over by the Zhao King and kicked out. It's not like Riboku has been a GG for zhao for decades lol. He simply made the best of the time he was given, and just like Rinshoujou, Riboku will die in his prime as well. If Rinshoujou had things he couldn't complete, then that's on him, i'm sure Kyou had things she wanted to do as well.

Rinshoujou was in his prime, he had already been engaging the 6 GGs for a hot minute, it's not like he was a young buck who had just come up. He simply had bigger aspirations, that required more time.
Wrong, on 2 accounts:
1. Not every general overestimates themselves. Riboku straight up said he could not defeat Renpa in open warfare. And it was that same Renpa who later called Riboku the most dangerous man in China. Not every general overestimates the others.
2. Gyou’Un straight up called Riboku “the strongest member of Zhao’s Three Great Heavens in all of history.” Straight up ranking Riboku > his former master.

It’s clear Gyou’Un was not blinded by some foolish sense of biased pride for his master, he knew Rinshoujou was great but ultimately inferior to Riboku. And yet he still though Rinshoujou could’ve defeated the Qin 6. Was Gyou’Un overestimating RSJ? Maybe, but clearly not by much as he seemed to rank RSJ < Riboku like the rest of us.
Every general in the series has had moments of overestimation, I think Tou might be the only one who hasn't (might have to reread the coalition war to check) and maybe Yotanwa. Even Ousen in this arc had moments of overestimation. Gyou'un himself did as well right before going against Ouhon before dying (I'll be addressing this later).

- Riboku at that point had just been a Great General of Heavens for like 2-3 years iirc. Renpa on the other hand was a living legend unlike anybody else in China. However, progress to after the Coalition Arc, where Riboku cements himself as the top general in China.. you now have Riboku challenging the Qin to send all of their generals at him together and they still can't beat him.

- That is a sign of Riboku's greatness, there simply is no longer any doubt in the eyes anybody living in China.

But I don't remember him stating Riboku > RSJ, but if he did, then no point in continuing this discussion regarding who is superior out of Riboku or RSJ, since Gyou'un himself rates Riboku greater than RSJ, which was my original point with this.

Next, you misunderstand what I was saying about Gyou’Un, or maybe I just didn’t make it clear lol.

So:


I never said Bananji was a “mere” vassal General, this isn’t One Piece lol. But Gyou’Un’s role is much larger than what a vassal General typically is. This’ll stray a bit away from the Martial Might convo but Let me explain.

We all know Gyou’Un was dubbed as Rinshoujou’s Sword, but what exactly does that mean? Well, a few things. First:

Gyou’Un is one of the most unique tacticians in the series: an Instinctual General who can read Strategic Types. And what’s crazy is that the better the strategist, the harder Gyou’Un is going to read them:

And of course second is his martial strength which I’ve discussed previously.

Gyou’Un fills an entirely different role for Rinshoujou than what Bananji fills for Riboku. Gyou’Un is Rinshoujou’s Sword. Take whatever meaning you want from this but the meaning I take is that Gyou’Un is Rinshoujou’s offense. Like, all of Rinshoujou’s offensive formations/tactics revolves around Gyou’Un as there center. The best example of this I can see is the Raigoku:

And this revolves around Gyou’Un and his men.
That's a great ofc. But let's also not ignore that Ten simply needed more time to get used to it, as pointed out by Kyoukai (or was it Shin), but HSU simply didn't have the time to give Ten to get used to him in that specific battle. But ofc, nonetheless it's great tactical prowess. But even then Chougouryuu was considered the superior one of the two in tactical prowess.

He was called the sword of Rinshoujou, that's an indicator of him being Rinshoujou's main vassal general, like a right hand man imo. As Tou was for Ouki, Kashibou is for Renpa, and so on. However, unlike them RSJ grew up next to Rinshoujou since he was a mere child. I don't think it refers to him being RSJ's "offensive prowess" or anything, RSJ had 9 other vassal generals, i'm sure few were offensive/defensive/all-rounders, rather than just 1 offensive and everybody else defensive or all-rounders. We don't know about them to comment on Gyou'un's role like that unless it's specifically stated, which sadly it hasn't.

Raigoku very well could simply be one of the many tactics that RSJ devised for each unit of his underlings, the others who knows, could've had superior ones. So to use the Raigoku to claim he was the "offensive power of RSJ" is a reckless assumption to me.



Bananji on the other hand, while useful, doesn’t really seem to fill any specific role for Riboku. Bananji’s main strength seems to be that he is primarily an offensive General, but Riboku never utilized him in the main story until Shukai Plains.

Against Duke Hyou, Riboku used the Ryuudou, against Ousen, Riboku used the Great Crane, and against Gekishin, Ouki, Yo Tan Wa, and Shin, Riboku’s “Sword” was definitely Houken and not Bananji.

So to Riboku, Bananji is a powerful vassal General that he can use when he feels he needs him. To Rinshoujou, the cream of the crop techniques and formations he was creating revolves around Gyou’Un as the center of everything.

Gyou’Un is, literally, the offensive power of a great General. Bananji is a powerful vassal General. His role in Riboku’s Army is inferior to Gyou’Un’s role in Rinshoujou’s Army, on top of everything else.
Well you gotta understand Riboku's role first, he wasn't just a "zhao 3", he was the Zhao 3 AND the prime minister. The whole army of Zhao was his army technically. So there really was never a "riboku army" that went around clashing against big time generals, like RSJ and etc, but i'll come back to this down below. Main thing though, Houken can't be his "sword" as he was a Zhao 3 himself.


Now even though I said there really was never a "riboku army" that went around clashing against big time generals. Which is why Riboku was pretty much unknown for all those years until he took down Ouki. However.. you see there were around 7-10 years of Riboku's life where he would gain the experience and skills to become on the level of the Zhao 3, and that was when he was appointed to Ganmon:
Now Hara hasn't gone too much into detail with the events regarding Riboku/Xiongu/Ganmon so far in the manga or the Riboku 1-shot, in fact the 1-shot pretty much ends at when he starts his war with the Xiongu.



Now this region of Ganmon is located in the borders of the Zhao, against the territories of the Xiongu. The conflict of such a high scale that the struggles of the plains were inferior in comparison. Zhao would send many generals to the North, but all of them would be killed.




However, there are two generals who would not suffer such fate. First is the one that is considered the epitome of a general in China, Riboku. The other.. his deputy known as the Demon of Ganmon, Bananji! It is from his work against the Xiongu that Riboku rose to the fame of the 3 great heavens, and he coincidentally has a deputy from that region, who even the Xiongu came to consider "Demon" for his sheer martial might. This is a connection that Riboku shares with no one, including Houken, who has helped Riboku in just few battles.



Now Bananji didn't roam the plains alongside Riboku, unlike Gyou'un who was with Rinshoujou since he was a child, so naturally he would never be called Riboku's sword, especially since they were in the North, an area heavily secluded from the Plains of China. But Bananji was a great renowned general & warrior on his own who joined under Riboku during his rise to the status of Zhao 3. Right now he serves as Riboku's most powerful deputy. Now in the previous post & this post so far I've focused on only the martial side of Bananji.. now let's actually get into the tactical side of Bananji:


He along with Riboku & SSJ deduced Kanki's weakness.




We'll exclude the fact that the guy who Riboku was telling the plans for the left wing was Bananji.


Starting off the bat, Chougouryuu had a plan to use Bananji in a specific, but Bananji went in early to which Chougouryuu commented on asking him "Is it not a bit too early?"



Chougouryuu would soon go on to see that no it was not too early, and in fact Bananji would go on to lay out a great tactical strategy:

The strategy would then have Chougouryuu, Gyou'un's superior in tactics, comment on Bananji not just being a ferocious fighter, but also a person who has a sharp eye for tactics. That he see why Riboku appointed him as his Deputy.



After Ouhon's interference, he would then proceed to counter Ouhon hard, to which Chougouryuu again comments on his hunch about Bananji being correct as somebody who understand warfare very well.


Then after Chougouryuu is slain, HSU should be good and ready to hit go hit Riboku's flank by going through Bananji, but Bananji counters this plan of theirs hard after seeing the momentum shifting next day after Chougaryuu's defeat. He orders all of the Zhao left wing to retreat including Gyou'un:



which has even Ten commenting on his strategical skills.


Sadly, Gyou'un who at this time was obssessed with the prophecy crap and was confident that he would take down Ouhon, instead decided to ignore Bananji's order and go at Ouhon... which resulted in his defeat.. and the Zhao left wing now being relegated to just 1 commander.

So Qin right wing sort of got lucky on the final day of Shukai Plains that Gyou'un decided not to listen Bananji and instead do his own thing, had he listened to Bananji, things would've played out much differently, more than likely won the war as well, but we won't get too deep into that.


Now after the war, the one who takes control of all of the forces at Shukai Plain is none other than Bananji. He then sends out a retreat request to even KouChou, who also came to the same deduction as Bananji in retreating.

After this, Bananji now presently has halted/ is halting the powerful army of Kantan in order for Riboku to escape. Playing a huge role in Riboku's survival as well as Prince Ka's.


-------------


All in all upon rereading all of this I might rate Bananji as the best general in Zhao actually after Riboku & Shibashou. Dude is the complete package, and i'm sure we'll be seeing more of it in the 2nd Zhao campaign, where he would be one of the big dogs under Riboku.


With that note, I'm ending the debate on my end Lee. This thing takes way too much time for Kingdom with cross-checking and going detail hunting throughout the chapters (with Kingdom it's time consuming mainly due to the huge amount of information there is in each chapter that is non-heavy action). The Xiongu history crosschecking with the manga is what sort of took a good amount of time as well. But hope this was good enough to convince you or anybody else regarding Bananji's standing against Gyou'un, or if not atleast in rankings of normal Zhao generals.


I'll post and edited version of the martial might part from the previous post in this post as well, so ignore this part Lee, just figure it'd be good to have a post with Bananji's tactical & martial feats/hypes/portrayal all together:

Martial Might:
Bananji's strength, depends on his mood or rather his "condition" hence Akou was able to fight on par with him. The more into it Bananji gets the stronger he gets, that's exactly what's pointed out to us at the start through Riboku. Even Riboku remarking about him being in normal condition:


The higher his rage the stronger he becomes. With his mood deciding how strong he is, unlike Gyou'un. So Bananji is essentially being set up as a character the more he gets into the fight and the thrill/rage of it the stronger of an opponent he is:


Gyou'un was never shown superior to Akou at all. Akou was shown being on par with a "normal condition" Bananji for just a quick minute. Then Gyou'un comes in with a cheapshot and gets his cheapshot blocked by Akou:

After this Bananji in his normal condition does the same as Gyou'un. Gyou'un never does better than Bananji here.

Then when Akou manages to slash Bananji's forehead, Bananji gets into rage and pretty much ggs Akou with a reflex swing of his glaive:

Akou had a comparison to Gaimou with Shin noting that the last time he probably took such a blow was more than likely with Gaimou. This established Gyou'un as an elite fighter of that level:


The comparison for Bananji was with Renpa himself, at the starting of the war:



Gyou'un displayed his strength outside full on away from his fight with Shin, he left in shock Akou's right hand man:


However, at the climax of the Shukai plains, Bananji leaves the biggest strategist on Qin's side, Ousen, in complete and utter shock at his strength. Despite him already being in action against Qin's right wing previously, so he would've know atleast how strong Bananji was.. but he was nonetheless still shocked:


Even the narrator makes sure to highlight that Bananji's strength was completely out of Ousen's prediction, so much so that Bananji's strength could be described as 'OVERPOWERING':

If you recall Gyou'un's big martial might moment other than the shin fight was when he was breaking through the strategies of Akou's right hand man with just martial might.


Bananji had a similar moment, but against Ousen himself, where he simply couldn't stopped no matter what Ousen's men did:


You see it's not until the very end of the Shukai plains that Bananji reveals his might. That's why Hara put so much stress into through multiple characters (Kaine/Ousen/Ousen's men/ Futei/Mouten/mouten's men) and the narrator itself. Even through Zhao's own men like Futei were sweating and shocked at seeing his monstrous strength:


So while Gyou'un was hyped up early in the Shukai Plains to serve as a growth tool for Ouhon & Shin, Bananji was getting slowly built up in subtle hype during the shukai plains right wing and then received his ultimate hype at the climax of the Shukai Plains, which now sets him up as one of Zhao's big generals for the 2nd Invasion.
 
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#23
Martial Might:
Bananji's strength, depends on his mood or rather his "condition" hence Akou was able to fight on par with him. The more into it Bananji gets the stronger he gets, that's exactly what's pointed out to us at the start through Riboku. Even Riboku remarking about him being in normal condition:


The higher his rage the stronger he becomes. With his mood deciding how strong he is, unlike Gyou'un. So Bananji is essentially being set up as a character the more he gets into the fight and the thrill/rage of it the stronger of an opponent he is:


Gyou'un was never shown superior to Akou at all. Akou was shown being on par with a "normal condition" Bananji for just a quick minute. Then Gyou'un comes in with a cheapshot and gets his cheapshot blocked by Akou:

After this Bananji in his normal condition does the same as Gyou'un. Gyou'un never does better than Bananji here.


Then when Akou manages to slash Bananji's forehead, Bananji gets into rage and pretty much ggs Akou with a reflex swing of his glaive:

Akou had a comparison to Gaimou with Shin noting that the last time he probably took such a blow was more than likely with Gaimou. This established Gyou'un as an elite fighter of that level:


The comparison for Bananji was with Renpa himself, at the starting of the war:



Gyou'un displayed his strength outside full on away from his fight with Shin, he left in shock Akou's right hand man:


However, at the climax of the Shukai plains, Bananji leaves the biggest strategist on Qin's side, Ousen, in complete and utter shock at his strength. Despite him already being in action against Qin's right wing previously, so he would've know atleast how strong Bananji was.. but he was nonetheless still shocked:


Even the narrator makes sure to highlight that Bananji's strength was completely out of Ousen's prediction, so much so that Bananji's strength could be described as 'OVERPOWERING':

If you recall Gyou'un's big martial might moment other than the shin fight was when he was breaking through the strategies of Akou's right hand man with just martial might.


Bananji had a similar moment, but against Ousen himself, where he simply couldn't stopped no matter what Ousen's men did:


You see it's not until the very end of the Shukai plains that Bananji reveals his might. That's why Hara put so much stress into through multiple characters (Kaine/Ousen/Ousen's men/ Futei/Mouten/mouten's men) and the narrator itself. Even through Zhao's own men like Futei were sweating and shocked at seeing his monstrous strength:



So while Gyou'un was hyped up early in the Shukai Plains to serve as a growth tool for Ouhon & Shin, Bananji was getting slowly built up in subtle hype during the shukai plains right wing and then received his ultimate hype at the climax of the Shukai Plains, which now sets him up as one of Zhao's big generals for the 2nd Invasion.

And ultimately, this panel cannot be ignored:


You have the weakest to the strongest, with them deciding on to take out the weakest of the 4 Gaku'ei first. We then know Chougaryuu was inferior to Gyou'un. So at that point we have weakest to strongest.. and then in the end we have Bananji. Hara wouldn't just say "ehh gonna put Bananji in the end even though he's weaker than Gyou'un". This imo, made the heirarchy of the Zhao's left wing very clear. Bananji was the top guy.




- You're making this assumption based off of Gyou'un's belief of what his master could've done. In Kingdom every underling overhypes their master, it's simply how it works. As seen when Shin replied to him saying that Rinshoujou could've done w.e but in the end Ouki still would've slain his ass. Rinshoujou died in his prime, Riboku will more than likely die in his as well, Kanmei died in his, so on and so forth. Rinshoujou's case is nothing special here.


- Every general has the confident that he or she could beat the other. But the reality is reality. There's really nothing special about Rinshoujou's genius that we haven't already seen from the likes of Ousen, Renpa, Ouki, Riboku, Hakuki.. hell the Qin 6 are the ones who had a really mythical like strategist, the man who stood on Rinshoujou's level through pure tactics and was rumored to be the mastermind behind the Qin 6.


- Gyou'un was also nothing more than a Vassal General of Rinshoujou. His rival was none other than Kashibou, Renpa's vassal general. They're all vassal generals, even Tou was one lol. So being a vassal general isn't a negative:

The reason Bananji wasn't a big shot like Gyou'un is the same reason the Duke was never a big shot like the Qin 6. Because they spent their time in areas where they didn't get a whole lot of highlighting. With Bananji spending most of his time in the North in the mountains fighting against formidable Xiongnu who came to fear the man and started calling him a Demon.


I think you're underestimating Bananji's role with Riboku though, it's much more than just a mere vassal general. Let's look at his introduction, where the trio of Riboku/Bananji/Shinsuuju is introduced after Kanki war. This is the debut of Riboku's new deputies, much like how Gyou'un & Chougouryou were Rinshoujou's deputies and formed a trio with him:


Then during the meeting with the Qin King, the two are highlighted again:

At that point it's not really much different between the little dude's portrayal to Riboku & Bananji's portrayal..until this, where Bananji walks alongside Riboku while everyone is behind them by a good gap:

What was Riboku known for before the Ouki stuff? Subduing the Xiongu, a feat that wasn't accomplished by any other Zhao general ever. Who is the other famous guy who is related to fighting against the Xiongu? Bananji, the guy who the Xiongu came to fear as the Demon. Riboku & Bananji go way back mate, he's far more than just a vassal general to Riboku. He was the guy Riboku was telling the strategies for his left wing for which the whole wing would implement.

After the Shukai Plains, it's Bananji who takes over the Shukai plains Zhao forces and decides to call a retreat of all the forces, even requesting general Koushou to do the same.


But yea that's how/why I view Bananji > Gyou'un.
The impression i got during the fight id Gyou Un was strongest.
Bt you made some excellent points.

For ex Banaji being compared to Renpa, fighting based on mood conditions, and finally being Riboku vassals who is the Strongest Zhou General. So by that portrayal make sense Banaji >Gyou un, Vassal of Rin Shou Jo.
Edit, Lee made good point. Houken was Riboku sword in those war that made him Great Riboku. And not Banaji.

And one point i will like to make is, Gyou un was fighting for his Master last will, the anger he had subdued in for dozen years, that all drived em during this fight.
 
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#24
Houken was Riboku sword in those war that made him Great Riboku. And not Banaji.
Being the sword of somebody is being somebody's underling. Houken was not Riboku's underling in any war. A Zhao 3 can't be the sword of another Zhao 3. Ouki was working under Hakuki as the deputy general in the big war against Renpa that continued for multiple years, surely you wouldn't make call Ouki, Hakuki's sword

Houken was the commander for the Bayou arc of 1 army and Riboku the commander of the other.
Houken was the commander of the army against Gekishin as well

Riboku had no plans of using Houken in the coalition war arc, Houken came on his own both times.
Riboku had no plans of using him in the current arc, Houken came on his own.
 
#25
First pardon me, i didn't see the last two posts before making my post.

Being the sword of somebody is being somebody's underling. Houken was not Riboku's underling in any war.

Houken was the commander for the Bayou arc of 1 army and Riboku the commander of the other.
Houken was the commander of the army against Gekishin as well
Houken was only commander for name sake to lure in Ouki and Riboku becoming one would also make him target of everyone.
Bt all know who was dictating the Zhoa army from behind in all those battle, so real Commander was always Riboku.

Houken was GG by himself, bt in those war, Riboku used him as his sword to finish Ouki. All important battles that helped Riboku become the Great Riboku he is, has Houken slaying the Generals.
Factually Houken was not Riboku sword bt he acted as one in those Battles.

Anyway, last 3 posts honestly are so good i flip flopped my opinion once i read em. I am convinced they are both great in that sense, and since Banaji fighting strength grows stronger with Rage, he overall could be stronger. Bt i think during the battle of left wings Gyou Un was portrayed as strongest threat and Chou Garyuu as Strategist.
And doesn't that Ten panel says they may have killed Chou garyuu, Banaji is no slouch either when it comes to Strategies?
I had not done reread, its just how i remember the first time i read it. Maybe because Banaji role was reserved for later and they had to be highlighted for Ou hon n Shin feats. I think the Demon Banaji true strength is even greater, might see it in final battle.
 
#26
This shall count as my daily tribute to Gyou’Un Sama
:akaman:

So, a few things right off the bat so you can have some solace as you read my response:

With that note, I'm ending the debate on my end Lee. This thing takes way too much time for Kingdom with cross-checking and going detail hunting throughout the chapters (with Kingdom it's time consuming mainly due to the huge amount of information there is in each chapter that is non-heavy action). The Xiongu history crosschecking with the manga is what sort of took a good amount of time as well. But hope this was good enough to convince you or anybody else regarding Bananji's standing against Gyou'un, or if not atleast in rankings of normal Zhao generals.
I completely understand bro lol, and as you’ll see your post on this will be a lot higher effort than mine, I’m on mobile and pulling panels is a bitch on here lol, but I will say:

Your arguments are very convincing. I will say that while I still don’t believe Bananji > Gyou’Un, I am at least open to the idea of Hara showing us that Bananji is that strong in the future. Hara loves writing characters who exceed expectations and I could see Bananji elevating himself that high lol.

Also, this discussion has elevated past just a straight martial might convo as both of us believe Bananji/Gyou’Un are superior to one another as overall generals and not just as warriors.

That said, here I go:

This was during their 2v1 against Akou though bro. But let's not forget that Bananji had this in the same 2v1, where he in the same 2 handed downward strike as Gyou'un did more damage to Akou's helmet & head than Gyou'un did :
Bananji did not start to land critical strikes or overpowering blows on Akou until after he and Gyou’Un had been ganging up on him and wounding him together. Gyou’Un on the other hand, pretty much right off the bat before Akou had been wounded, landed that one overpowering blow on Akou very early on before Akou had taken any real injury.

Akou and Bananji were hyped as being basically equals in fighting strength, though granted there are subtle moments where I think Hara wanted Bananji appear slightly superior, but never 1v1 did Bananji overpower Akou like Gyou’Un apart from he and Gyou’Un wearing Akou down.

It depends on how you interpret it imo. Being a symbol of martial might can mean two of the following things:

- He was THE symbol of martial might for Zhao. Meaning #1 dude in terms of fighting for Zhao.
- He was one of the dudes who symbolized the martial might of Zhao.

I interpret it with the 2nd one. The reason being is Shin at coalition arc was also a symbol who represented Qin's martial prestige to the world, even though Moubu slayed Kanmei:
The problem with this is that Gyou’Un was the only one to receive this level of hype.

For a minute, I thought about responding to your “Bananji’s strength is relative to his condition” points with an argument along the lines of “this argument is probably not exclusive to Bananji as theoretically anybody’s strength is based on condition” but I realized that would be an unfair point for me to make since Bananji, like you pointed out, is the only character to receive this portrayal from Hara.

Similarly, your 2nd interpretation of point 2 is unfair because Gyou’Un is the only one in the manga who’s strength was representative of Zhao’s martial might, not Renpa or Kaishibou. It’s unfair to apply that hype to them when this is how Gyou’Un exclusively was hyped.

Renpa > Kashibou I think was made very clear in the Sanyou arc.
I don’t believe that at all, and I think I’m a brutal minority there lol, I know @Blackbeard also doesn’t believe Renpa = Kaishibou (in the martial might conversation ofc lol)

But I never saw a reason to doubt that Kaishibou and Renpa were basically equals as warriors. Sure Kaishibou’s role in Sanyou was minor, but he was the leader of the Heavenly Kings, and at no point in this manga has there ever been any reason to doubt how strong this guy is, and he’s always been stated to be an equal to Renpa in terms of fighting prowess. I think he also slayed something like 100 Generals before he joined up with Renpa, and He burned Kanki’s HQ to the ground on day 1 of Sanyou after all lol.

So Gyou’Un and Bananji having a rivalry never de-hyped him for me as I’ve never underestimated Kaishibou.

Now now it seems my Gaimou posts in the Earl vs Gaimou thread convince you of Gaimou's martial greatness.
Ayyyy lmfao I’m not convinced either way on these two. Tough to say what would happen if they fought, I think they can both slay each other even though I’m obviously biased towards Shi Ei as a character.

Feats, if excluding the special highlighted fights that Gyou'un got:
- Gyou'un's main "unstoppable monster, tearing up the defense" feat comes against Akou's right hand guy.
- Bananji's "unstoppable monster, tearing up the defense" feat comes against the HQ of none other than the mighty Ousen himself.
- In the fight both were fighting together against the same opponent, Bananji landed a bigger hit to the opponent than Gyou'un with the same style attack.
Gyou’Un didn’t just “tear up” Gunei, he utterly annihilated his formations and slayed Gunei himself, as Gunei contemplated in inner terror about how he had never seen such ferocity in 40 years as a tactician. Gunei who keep in mind, could replicate some of Ousen’s tactics to a lesser extent.

Bananji made Ousen go wide eyed but that’s about it, I think Gyou’Un would’ve done more due to his superior instincts against strategists.


Greater role in the plot:
Bananji was the guy who Riboku implemented the plants of the left wing through, thus making him the more important of the 4 generals automatically. He is also the guy who kept the bigger army for Qin at bay. He is also the guy who survived the longest thus was more useful to Riboku, and even after the war now made some crucial plot changing decisions:
- Calling for the retreat of all the armies immideatly, after Riboku got captured.
- In the recent chapter that's coming up, he's the main reason Riboku and etc are able to escape, because he holds the armies of Kantan at bay with his own army.
Okay, so let’s distinguish between greater role in the battle, and greater role in the plot.

Let’s concede for a second that Bananji played a greater role in the Battle of Shukai Plains for a second. I don’t think he did as his army was brutalized by Ouhon early on while Gyou’Un actually defeated Ouhon later on, on top of the fact that Riboku held Gyou’Un in the center army initially to see where he would be needed most, as if it distunguish Gyou’Un as the general who had the greatest potential in the battlefield, but let’s concede this for a minute.

When I say “the plot” I mean like the overall story of the Kingdom Manga. Gyou’Un’s role in the plot is that of a Dark Ouki parallel, he was a living example of what Ouki could have become had Ouki given up on his dream after King Sho’s death. Ouki stayed mostly optimistic and hopeful, awaiting the arrival of the one who would continue King Sho’s dream, while Gyou’Un grew cynical and world-hating, blaming all of his problems on bad luck and chance rather than continuing his dream anyway (uniting China under Zhao).

Gyou’Un is an extremely important character because of this, and he filled an important role for Shin and the overall dream of unifying China, being partly responsible for delivering Rin Shou Jou’s words of wisdom and just overall being extremely significant to the ultimate goal of the manga.

Bananji is a powerful general who will be a strong opponent for conquering Zhao. Most likely. I doubt he’ll have as much significance as Gyou’Un and Garyuu did, and he certainly hasn’t so far.

But if you're not into this type of stuff in potential mangaka's foreshadowing then I'll respect that and we can drop this here in our discussion.
I’m not, there are far better arguments than panel ordering imo.

It's not like Riboku has been a GG for zhao for decades lol. He simply made the best of the time he was given, and just like Rinshoujou, Riboku will die in his prime as well.
That’s fair. For the record I think Riboku is a top 3 general of all time pecimisticly lol.

Gyou'un himself did as well right before going against Ouhon before dying (I'll be addressing this later).
There is a difference between attempting something and overestimating yourself. Gyou’Un attempting to slay Ouhon doesn’t necessarily mean that he overestimated himself or underestimated Ouhon, in fact in my opinion, the desperation with which Gyou’Un seemed to believe that he had to slay Ouhon himself goes to show how Gyou’Un was not underestimating Ouhon, and for the first time was understanding the potential of Ouhon (and Qin by extension)

That's a great ofc. But let's also not ignore that Ten simply needed more time to get used to it, as pointed out by Kyoukai (or was it Shin), but HSU simply didn't have the time to give Ten to get used to him in that specific battle. But ofc, nonetheless it's great tactical prowess. But even then Chougouryuu was considered the superior one of the two in tactical prowess.
Absolutely. But this is still greater tactical hype than Bananji has received, as much of Bananji’s tactical insight was dependent on guidance from Riboku, while Gyou’Un was a strong tactician in his own right, without relying on anyone else to guide him. Gyou’Un in my opinion is most definitely a superior tactician to Bananji. With martial strength they are comparable but tactically Gyou’Un is the clear winner.

He was called the sword of Rinshoujou, that's an indicator of him being Rinshoujou's main vassal general, like a right hand man imo
I disagree, as Gyou’Un (like the rest of the heroes under RSJ but he in particular) fulfilled a role on the battlefield that Rinshoujou himself was incapable of filling-the role of being a powerful warrior who could slay other powerful warriors. Chou Garyuu was also referred to once as RSJ’s shield due to his defensive formations (Sifting Sands in particular)

Gyou’Un (and Garyuu) were really the only subordinate generals of great generals that we’ve seen who fulfill roles that RSJ couldn’t have fulfilled himself in some way (bar Shouheikun). Even Riboku is capable of slaying other generals himself as he has some level of martial prowess, but RSJ wasn’t going to be personally leading the Rai Un Lol.

Main thing though, Houken can't be his "sword" as he was a Zhao 3 himself.
Why not? Didn’t you just point out how Riboku was more than just a “Zhao 3” himself but was also the Prime Minister of Zhao’s and also the unofficial leader of the Zhao military? Why can’t Houken be his sword, all that considered? Houken himself is not really even a General, he he was given a puppet promotion due to his colossal strength but he was almost subservient to Riboku just like any other subordinate, albeit in a different way. Houken himself would not even be a part of the Zhao Army if not for Riboku, and Houken consistently acted as part of Riboku’s Army (though granted Riboku didn’t have the level of control over Houken that he would’ve had over a typical subordinate lol).

However, there are two generals who would not suffer such fate. First is the one that is considered the epitome of a general in China, Riboku. The other.. his deputy known as the Demon of Ganmon, Bananji! It is from his work against the Xiongu that Riboku rose to the fame of the 3 great heavens, and he coincidentally has a deputy from that region, who even the Xiongu came to consider "Demon" for his sheer martial might. This is a connection that Riboku shares with no one, including Houken, who has helped Riboku in just few battles.
It’s not that meaningful of a connection due to the difference between what each of them did. Riboku was hyped for slaughtering the Xiongnu while at a disadvantage while Bananji was known for simply surviving Xiongnu territory battles for a long time. It’s a connection that doesn’t really mean anything imo.

So Qin right wing sort of got lucky on the final day of Shukai Plains that Gyou'un decided not to listen Bananji and instead do his own thing, had he listened to Bananji, things would've played out much differently, more than likely won the war as well, but we won't get too deep into that.
I think Gyou’Un knew that his life was going to end soon, especially after Garyuu’s death and the fact that the doctors were telling him he would lose his arm. In a different scenario, Gyou’Un would’ve probably tried for a more optimal strategy but I think he probably resolved himself to go out trying to stop the new Qin bois on behalf of his master. In a different scenario he would’ve acted differently imo.

Now after the war, the one who takes control of all of the forces at Shukai Plain is none other than Bananji. He then sends out a retreat request to even KouChou, who also came to the same deduction as Bananji in retreating.
The one’s who are in charge right now are Kou Chou and Shunsuiju, but granted Bananji is one of the core Generals right now and has a say as well.

The best argument for Gyou’Un being weaker than Bananji imo is that Gyou’Un stated that he believed that his strength had declined since he couldn’t slay Shin, and Bananji seems to be more or less in his prime as a warrior. But I think it’s clear from this argument not even being brought up that it falls pretty flat, as Gyou’Un’s semi-irrational self-hating and underestimation of Shin is likely what prompted him to say that rather than himself actually getting weaker since he and the Rai’Un maintained their drilling and stayed active in Central Zhao.

Overall, like I said above, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bananji was proven > Gyou’Un, they’re already very close martially imo so it’s certainly possible, but I just don’t see it right now.
Post automatically merged:

@Owl Ki do you still believe Chou Garyuu > Keisha?
 
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#27
Nobody wants to update Kochu after the last chapter?
Anyway this is the new list
1: Riboku
2: Renpa
3: Rinshoujou
4: Shibashou
5: Chou Sha/Kochu
6: Gyu'un
7: Keisha/Genpo
8: Banaji/Kaishibou
9: Kyou En/Chougaryuu
10: Gaku jou
 
#28
We already discussed this. But to state them again:

1. Renpa
2. Houken/Shibashou
3. Shibashou/Houken
4. Bananji/Kashibou
5. Kashibou/Bananji
6. Gyou'un

I have reservations about Riboku, since he had a whole chapter dedicated to his martial prowess called, "Warrior's Body".


That's understandable because we actually know the generals that Renpa had in check were the top 2 generals of the Qin 6, thus his feat seems more impressive. Where as on the other hand the generals Gakuki took out and took on when he reduced the Qi to just 2 cities, are pretty much unknown. You're not wrong about the Sanyou arc & Renpa, his portrayal and hype is def. far superior to anything from any other great general, except for Ouki. But to your point about the Great General factor, I'm not sure if I'd take that over the SS ranked experience. While both are unique to each character and the constant stress on the "Great General" title, I'm sure the factor has some relevance. But the SS experience is in my opinion much much more relevant in determining superiority. As we've seen somebody like Ten get outshine by the likes of Ouhon, Kyoukai, and few others, despite being a better strategist all because she lacks the practical experience compared to them. Even when you look at the time when Riboku admit inferiority, Hara had Riboku at A rank at the time. But once Riboku hit the S rank territory after Coalition War Arc, he started flexing as somebody capable of handling all em generals of Qin. With Tou it was something similar to, after he got the S rank in experience post-Coalition War, he gets the whole "Perfect General" hype due to his experience.

So I wouldn't put Renpa above Gakuki for the GOAT. I would reluctantly put him above Riboku for now, but think after the 2nd Zhao war campaign that's gonna be gone, and he should establish himself as the GOAT general surpassing Gakuki. There's also the matter of Ouki & Hakuki, but all-time it's personally hard for me to imagine Renpa being above them.
@Xione This is probably the more appropriate thread to continue the discussion.

Pretty similar to mine. Although I don't have any confusion about Bananji > Kashibou. Your posts on his martial strength made good points. For Shibashou samething, Shibashou > Houken, since he's being set up as the big combatant for when they invade Zhao again. What are your thoughts on Bananji over Houken?

I don't think Riboku will be a combatant of high level. He's just gonna be a Kanki and Ousen type, where they have some good martial strength, but they aren't monstrous or anything. Since Riboku would've just took out Shin himself, if he was a monster. We also saw some of his combatant feats in escaping Kantan, they weren't anything special.


Not only that, it's hard to even imagine that this dude fought against the Qin6, due to their locations being so far different. Plus, for somebody to stall Ouki and Hakuki at the sometime in a fairly neutral place, is a monstrous feat. We haven't seen any general being able to take on 2 people of that caliber. Plus you know for a fact he was the one who's responsible for making it impossible for Ouki and Hakuki to conquer that area since the moment he got removed from the command, Ouki and Hakuki take the W fairly easily. Not to mention you can make the argument that if Renpa or anybody like that had a Coalition army they could've taken out Qi as well. Great General factor imo is bigger since the premise of the series relating to the main character is about becoming a "Great General of the Heavens".'

2 additional questions:

Why is Riboku above Renpa here?
Out of all the combatants alive which ones would you place above Gyou'un?
 
#29
@Xione This is probably the more appropriate thread to continue the discussion.

Pretty similar to mine. Although I don't have any confusion about Bananji > Kashibou. Your posts on his martial strength made good points. For Shibashou samething, Shibashou > Houken, since he's being set up as the big combatant for when they invade Zhao again. What are your thoughts on Bananji over Houken?

I don't think Riboku will be a combatant of high level. He's just gonna be a Kanki and Ousen type, where they have some good martial strength, but they aren't monstrous or anything. Since Riboku would've just took out Shin himself, if he was a monster. We also saw some of his combatant feats in escaping Kantan, they weren't anything special.


Not only that, it's hard to even imagine that this dude fought against the Qin6, due to their locations being so far different. Plus, for somebody to stall Ouki and Hakuki at the sometime in a fairly neutral place, is a monstrous feat. We haven't seen any general being able to take on 2 people of that caliber. Plus you know for a fact he was the one who's responsible for making it impossible for Ouki and Hakuki to conquer that area since the moment he got removed from the command, Ouki and Hakuki take the W fairly easily. Not to mention you can make the argument that if Renpa or anybody like that had a Coalition army they could've taken out Qi as well. Great General factor imo is bigger since the premise of the series relating to the main character is about becoming a "Great General of the Heavens".'

2 additional questions:

Why is Riboku above Renpa here?
Out of all the combatants alive which ones would you place above Gyou'un?
It's still too soon to put Bananji over Kashibou in my opinion, based on the evidence we have. Bananji has been more impressive no doubt, but I credit that partially to Kashibou not really getting the chance due to them fighting in a terrain that didn't allow him to showcase his martial might properly. That's why I would personally want to wait until the 2nd Zhao compaign to confirm where Bananji stands. I mean there is a good chance he might be superior.

Bananji over Houken is a big NO for me. I cannot fathom that at all. Shibashou is the only one who I can see being above Houken, due to the very reasoning you mentioned, but even that isn't really a certainty, because for all we know Hara gives Futei a big upgrade and has Futei being the big fight for Shin. Not to mention it's not as if Shin beat Houken in a pure 1v1, Houken had to be worn down by Kyoukai a bit then Shin had to kill himself to beat Houken. Those fingers Kyoukai took were crucial as they would impact the grip Houken has over the glaive. Not to ignore that Kyoukai & Shin themselves were already fucked up when going into fight Houken, but point is he still hasn't really beat somebody of Houken's prowess in a sheer 1v1. So in the 2nd Zhao campaign Hara can just make it where he beats somebody like in a Houken where Shin and whoever he fights are both fresh and Shin beats them without having to kill himself or use some Nakama-superpower. Multiple possiblities you know. But if I had to bet on 1 person being above Houken in Zhao it would have to be Shibashou.


That's a fairly understandable point of view, but it's flawed. Riboku was focused on escaping the entire time, not exactly fighting. He had no issues taking on the combatants that were coming his way, but it's not like he had the freedom of mobility, he had to protect the carriage while keep on running. As for him not going after Shin himself, he didn't do that even when Shin beat Houken, despite seeing Shin's condition. He could've just gone and double-teamed Shin as well. But he had always planned to retreat, because it would do him no good to waste time fighting Shin when the other Ousen forces would've gotten to him as well. There's also the fact that he knows the moment he falls is when Zhao is destined to fail, because there's no other general in Zhao on his caliber. So him keeping himself safe is essentially the #1 priority, when we're talking about keeping Zhao safe.
If Riboku isn't meant to have a good amount of martial strength that could give Shin a good fight, then there's no point in having them do a 1v1 where Riboku sends Shin flying. Then stress on him having a "Warrior's body". Shin vs Riboku in general doesn't make sense if Riboku himself isn't a capable fighter who can at the very least give Shin a mid to high diff of a fight.
Now I did say I'm reserved about his martial might, since Hara could just have the man be squashed by Shin.



He did stalemate, no denying it, that's the main reason he has an argument for being above all of the Qin 6 & Zhao 3. BUT there's only ever been two coalition armies in the known Kingdom history, the 2nd one was a fail by Riboku against a Qin that wasn't recognized as a superstate. The first one was a near success by Gakuki against a Qi that was recognized as a superstate much like the current Chu is. So we can assume Qi had generals on the caliber of Qin 6 & Zhao 3 at the time that Gakuki beat.

As for SS rank experience vs Great General factor: 100. Gakuki has both while Renpa only has 1 of them.



1. That's because I'm just not 100% certain on whether Riboku is superior to Renpa now or if it'll only be during/after the 2nd Zhao campaign. That's all. But we're essentially talking about the Top 2 of Zhao all-time.

2. That is gonna be quite a list of combatants, but I'm going to limit it to just Qin/Wei/Zhao:
Qin - Moubu, Tou, Yotanwa, Shin, Kyoukai?, Ouhon?? (there's still a number of unknown characters like Zenou and etc who's martial strength is hard to judge).
Wei - Gaimou, Ranbihaku??
Zhao - Shibashou, Bananji

So not a lot, but a lot of unknowns right now as well. Chu will probably have a few down the line. Not sure what the plan with Kyouyoku is but there's a possibility he might surpass Gyou'un, were he to slay RanBiHaku (though I doubt it).
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Nobody wants to update Kochu after the last chapter?
Anyway this is the new list
1: Riboku
2: Renpa
3: Rinshoujou
4: Shibashou
5: Chou Sha/Kochu
6: Gyu'un
7: Keisha/Genpo
8: Banaji/Kaishibou
9: Kyou En/Chougaryuu
10: Gaku jou
Not really, there hasn't been any reason to change mind about KoChou. He's still in that level below Kanki/Ousen/YTW.
 
#30
It's still too soon to put Bananji over Kashibou in my opinion, based on the evidence we have. Bananji has been more impressive no doubt, but I credit that partially to Kashibou not really getting the chance due to them fighting in a terrain that didn't allow him to showcase his martial might properly. That's why I would personally want to wait until the 2nd Zhao compaign to confirm where Bananji stands. I mean there is a good chance he might be superior.

Bananji over Houken is a big NO for me. I cannot fathom that at all. Shibashou is the only one who I can see being above Houken, due to the very reasoning you mentioned, but even that isn't really a certainty, because for all we know Hara gives Futei a big upgrade and has Futei being the big fight for Shin. Not to mention it's not as if Shin beat Houken in a pure 1v1, Houken had to be worn down by Kyoukai a bit then Shin had to kill himself to beat Houken. Those fingers Kyoukai took were crucial as they would impact the grip Houken has over the glaive. Not to ignore that Kyoukai & Shin themselves were already fucked up when going into fight Houken, but point is he still hasn't really beat somebody of Houken's prowess in a sheer 1v1. So in the 2nd Zhao campaign Hara can just make it where he beats somebody like in a Houken where Shin and whoever he fights are both fresh and Shin beats them without having to kill himself or use some Nakama-superpower. Multiple possiblities you know. But if I had to bet on 1 person being above Houken in Zhao it would have to be Shibashou.


That's a fairly understandable point of view, but it's flawed. Riboku was focused on escaping the entire time, not exactly fighting. He had no issues taking on the combatants that were coming his way, but it's not like he had the freedom of mobility, he had to protect the carriage while keep on running. As for him not going after Shin himself, he didn't do that even when Shin beat Houken, despite seeing Shin's condition. He could've just gone and double-teamed Shin as well. But he had always planned to retreat, because it would do him no good to waste time fighting Shin when the other Ousen forces would've gotten to him as well. There's also the fact that he knows the moment he falls is when Zhao is destined to fail, because there's no other general in Zhao on his caliber. So him keeping himself safe is essentially the #1 priority, when we're talking about keeping Zhao safe.
If Riboku isn't meant to have a good amount of martial strength that could give Shin a good fight, then there's no point in having them do a 1v1 where Riboku sends Shin flying. Then stress on him having a "Warrior's body". Shin vs Riboku in general doesn't make sense if Riboku himself isn't a capable fighter who can at the very least give Shin a mid to high diff of a fight.
Now I did say I'm reserved about his martial might, since Hara could just have the man be squashed by Shin.



He did stalemate, no denying it, that's the main reason he has an argument for being above all of the Qin 6 & Zhao 3. BUT there's only ever been two coalition armies in the known Kingdom history, the 2nd one was a fail by Riboku against a Qin that wasn't recognized as a superstate. The first one was a near success by Gakuki against a Qi that was recognized as a superstate much like the current Chu is. So we can assume Qi had generals on the caliber of Qin 6 & Zhao 3 at the time that Gakuki beat.

As for SS rank experience vs Great General factor: 100. Gakuki has both while Renpa only has 1 of them.



1. That's because I'm just not 100% certain on whether Riboku is superior to Renpa now or if it'll only be during/after the 2nd Zhao campaign. That's all. But we're essentially talking about the Top 2 of Zhao all-time.

2. That is gonna be quite a list of combatants, but I'm going to limit it to just Qin/Wei/Zhao:
Qin - Moubu, Tou, Yotanwa, Shin, Kyoukai?, Ouhon?? (there's still a number of unknown characters like Zenou and etc who's martial strength is hard to judge).
Wei - Gaimou, Ranbihaku??
Zhao - Shibashou, Bananji

So not a lot, but a lot of unknowns right now as well. Chu will probably have a few down the line. Not sure what the plan with Kyouyoku is but there's a possibility he might surpass Gyou'un, were he to slay RanBiHaku (though I doubt it).
I'm going to use some of your own points for Bananji for this. Bananji when he was fighting against Akou was stated to have possessed similar level of martial might to Renpa & Kashibou. Then in the 2v1 against Akou, his performance was pretty much on par with Gyou'un, despite the fact Bananji had already been fighting Akou prior to Gyou'un. So this established Bananji when facing the Qin right wing as somebody who was a combatant on same level as Gyou'un. But being somebody similar to level of Kashibou & even Renpa. You I think missed a crucial detail, despite mentioning the whole "emotional" thing, when it comes to Bananji's performance on the last day.

Despite him battling against the Qin for 14 days at this point, one would assume Qin had already known about his martial strength. Yet despite 14 days of Bananji fighting on the battlefield, according to Kaine, Qin had no idea what Bananji was actually capable of once he got serious. Key part here being "once he got serious", implying that in the last 14 days when he was showcasing feats on par with Gyou'un, when CHG was hyping him up to be somebody on similar level as Kashibou and Renpa, he actually wasn't even going all out.


A decently serious Bananji had left Ousen shocked and speechless.



Ousen had even predicted his strength based on the reports they recieved about him. But his strength while being semi-serious surpassed any of Ousen's predictions, so much so that the narrator went called it "overwhelming".


Reason I say semi-serious is because he was still smiling about when performing all of those above feats.


Kashibou when against Mougou doesn't have any similar hype to that.


Another thing you missed in your debate regarding Bananji and Gyou'un is the following panel:
Bananji is called "Riboku's Hidden Strength".

I don't think Kashibou has any hype or portrayal that rivals Bananji, so there's no reason to have Kashibou above Bananji. Houken on the other hand does, but I will address that here:

Houken was a monster no doubt, but as shown he lacked that something that fueled him up. So he couldn't really dig deep into himself to bring out "hidden strength" that people like Shin, Renp, Ouki and such could. A case pretty similar to Gaimou who was described as just a raging bull. But Bananji isn't that way, Bananji has something he fights for on top of his incredible Martial Strength that's the most hyped out of any character in Zhao not named Renpa. So I see Bananji being superior to Houken in a similar manner that Ouki was superior to Houken in, which is when he digs completely into himself and brings out his true "demon" martial might, he will edge out Houken.


I understand. Hope you're right about Riboku then, because it will make for an interesting Riboku vs Shin rematch.



Oh never mind I concede then. I didn't know Gakuki also had the Great General Factor: 100. But I still would hold Renpa above the rest of the Zhao 3 & Qin 6.



1. Why would he be superior to Renpa in the 2nd Zhao Campaign if he isn't now?

2. Kyoukai is a tough cookie to judge tbh. I still don't know how to rate her since her damn fight against Houken was so filled with story related elements. Ranbihaku I can see, he seems to be in a similar role to Gyou'un, but only if he can get past this campaign. Ouhon also makes some sense, due to him besting Gyou'un. But why Tou & Yotanwa, they haven't shown any monsterous martial hype like Gyou'un?
 
#31
I'm going to use some of your own points for Bananji for this. Bananji when he was fighting against Akou was stated to have possessed similar level of martial might to Renpa & Kashibou. Then in the 2v1 against Akou, his performance was pretty much on par with Gyou'un, despite the fact Bananji had already been fighting Akou prior to Gyou'un. So this established Bananji when facing the Qin right wing as somebody who was a combatant on same level as Gyou'un. But being somebody similar to level of Kashibou & even Renpa. You I think missed a crucial detail, despite mentioning the whole "emotional" thing, when it comes to Bananji's performance on the last day.

Despite him battling against the Qin for 14 days at this point, one would assume Qin had already known about his martial strength. Yet despite 14 days of Bananji fighting on the battlefield, according to Kaine, Qin had no idea what Bananji was actually capable of once he got serious. Key part here being "once he got serious", implying that in the last 14 days when he was showcasing feats on par with Gyou'un, when CHG was hyping him up to be somebody on similar level as Kashibou and Renpa, he actually wasn't even going all out.


A decently serious Bananji had left Ousen shocked and speechless.



Ousen had even predicted his strength based on the reports they recieved about him. But his strength while being semi-serious surpassed any of Ousen's predictions, so much so that the narrator went called it "overwhelming".


Reason I say semi-serious is because he was still smiling about when performing all of those above feats.


Kashibou when against Mougou doesn't have any similar hype to that.


Another thing you missed in your debate regarding Bananji and Gyou'un is the following panel:
Bananji is called "Riboku's Hidden Strength".

I don't think Kashibou has any hype or portrayal that rivals Bananji, so there's no reason to have Kashibou above Bananji. Houken on the other hand does, but I will address that here:

Houken was a monster no doubt, but as shown he lacked that something that fueled him up. So he couldn't really dig deep into himself to bring out "hidden strength" that people like Shin, Renp, Ouki and such could. A case pretty similar to Gaimou who was described as just a raging bull. But Bananji isn't that way, Bananji has something he fights for on top of his incredible Martial Strength that's the most hyped out of any character in Zhao not named Renpa. So I see Bananji being superior to Houken in a similar manner that Ouki was superior to Houken in, which is when he digs completely into himself and brings out his true "demon" martial might, he will edge out Houken.


I understand. Hope you're right about Riboku then, because it will make for an interesting Riboku vs Shin rematch.



Oh never mind I concede then. I didn't know Gakuki also had the Great General Factor: 100. But I still would hold Renpa above the rest of the Zhao 3 & Qin 6.



1. Why would he be superior to Renpa in the 2nd Zhao Campaign if he isn't now?

2. Kyoukai is a tough cookie to judge tbh. I still don't know how to rate her since her damn fight against Houken was so filled with story related elements. Ranbihaku I can see, he seems to be in a similar role to Gyou'un, but only if he can get past this campaign. Ouhon also makes some sense, due to him besting Gyou'un. But why Tou & Yotanwa, they haven't shown any monsterous martial hype like Gyou'un?
Lol it's just a guess when it comes to Kashibou. I personally think Kashibou and Renpa were used as the measuring standards for somebody's martial might in Zhao, based on the comment CHG made. But like I also said, Bananji is far more impressive right now, so it's just wishful thinking I guess that's making me keep Kashibou up there on par with Bananji for now. And yea I did miss the Riboku's hidden strength part, which just means he's in a similar role as Tou, Akou, Kashibou, Gyou'un, and such were under their respective generals.

Bananji got his eye fucked up by Mouten, I don't see that happening to Houken at all.

I hope so because Riboku vs Rishin should be an extreme-diff fight in my headcanon lmao.

Even though Renpa did hold up Ouki & Hakuki, I would put the two above Renpa by a hair's margin. But it's really an argument about nitpicking few things, I have no interest in getting into a detailed discussion about it though.


1. He'd have gained more experience, and as said earlier experience matters a whole lot in KINGDOM when it comes to being the superior general. Not only that but what he will accomplish if Hara sticks to basic history outline, will be something superior to anything Qin 6 or Zhao 3 have accomplished:
Zhao will suffer two natural disasters, an earthquake and a famine, which leaves Zhao crippled hard, Qin decides to take advantage and attack with their big shots that they have right now. But they end up getting stalemated because of Riboku's defensive strategies. The moment Riboku is taken out of command, is the moment Qin forces then completely annihilate Zhao.

2. Yotanwa is the leader of the strongest martial army in Qin, she's known as the Lord of Death by them all, and all of them fear her. Technically this portrayal should be enough to put her as the strongest combatant in Qin, but portrayal isn't the only thing to it of course. Tou's skills are said to be Ouki's equal, he lacked expereince compared to Ouki before, but even now is pretty much on the same level as Ouki in S-rank, meaning his Weight of General should be on similar level to Ouki's. Both of these are superior to anything Gyou'un has going for him, which is his initial blow being something akin to Gaimou's.
 
#32
Lol it's just a guess when it comes to Kashibou. I personally think Kashibou and Renpa were used as the measuring standards for somebody's martial might in Zhao, based on the comment CHG made. But like I also said, Bananji is far more impressive right now, so it's just wishful thinking I guess that's making me keep Kashibou up there on par with Bananji for now. And yea I did miss the Riboku's hidden strength part, which just means he's in a similar role as Tou, Akou, Kashibou, Gyou'un, and such were under their respective generals.

Bananji got his eye fucked up by Mouten, I don't see that happening to Houken at all.

I hope so because Riboku vs Rishin should be an extreme-diff fight in my headcanon lmao.

Even though Renpa did hold up Ouki & Hakuki, I would put the two above Renpa by a hair's margin. But it's really an argument about nitpicking few things, I have no interest in getting into a detailed discussion about it though.


1. He'd have gained more experience, and as said earlier experience matters a whole lot in KINGDOM when it comes to being the superior general. Not only that but what he will accomplish if Hara sticks to basic history outline, will be something superior to anything Qin 6 or Zhao 3 have accomplished:
Zhao will suffer two natural disasters, an earthquake and a famine, which leaves Zhao crippled hard, Qin decides to take advantage and attack with their big shots that they have right now. But they end up getting stalemated because of Riboku's defensive strategies. The moment Riboku is taken out of command, is the moment Qin forces then completely annihilate Zhao.

2. Yotanwa is the leader of the strongest martial army in Qin, she's known as the Lord of Death by them all, and all of them fear her. Technically this portrayal should be enough to put her as the strongest combatant in Qin, but portrayal isn't the only thing to it of course. Tou's skills are said to be Ouki's equal, he lacked expereince compared to Ouki before, but even now is pretty much on the same level as Ouki in S-rank, meaning his Weight of General should be on similar level to Ouki's. Both of these are superior to anything Gyou'un has going for him, which is his initial blow being something akin to Gaimou's.
No point discussing further over a guess I suppose then.

I see the Bananji and Mouten moment being very similar to Shin slashing Houken at Sai. Which is they use a strategy to land a lethal blow on the opponent. Mouten being smarter than Shin, came up with a nice tactic to deal a somewhat lethal blow to Bananji, which halted him for a bit, but that's it.

Agree to disagree there

1. Ok that makes sense, did not know about Riboku's historical feats of the future. But after knowing that I'll jump board the Riboku wagon if Hara actually follows that story.

2. I was expecting more of an argument based on feats and arc hype they recieved similar to your detailed argument about Gyou'un and Bananji. The overall story portrayal works to an extent as well. Since you rate Yotanwa higher than Gyou'un, what about Berserk Bajio?

Also where do you hold Bananji when it comes to strategy?
 
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#33
No point discussing further over a guess I suppose then.

I see the Bananji and Mouten moment being very similar to Shin slashing Houken at Sai. Which is they use a strategy to land a lethal blow on the opponent. Mouten being smarter than Shin, came up with a nice tactic to deal a somewhat lethal blow to Bananji, which halted him for a bit, but that's it.

Agree to disagree there

1. Ok that makes sense, did not know about Riboku's historical feats of the future. But after knowing that I'll jump board the Riboku wagon if Hara actually follows that story.

2. I was expecting more of an argument based on feats and arc hype they recieved similar to your detailed argument about Gyou'un and Bananji. The overall story portrayal works to an extent as well. Since you rate Yotanwa higher than Gyou'un, what about Berserk Bajio?
I'll reflect back on Houken vs Bananji more once we see his "Demon" mode that he's been hyped for in the 2nd Zhao campaign.


2. I would have gone into the details and started picking out panels related to their feats and hype, but that is too much work, since they're not just in one arc, but the entire manga since the very start. I also just don't have the drive to dwell that deep into posts, since they waste a lot of time. I would rate Gyou'un above Berserk Bajio. He could give Gyou'un a high-diff fight, but that's about it.
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Also where do you hold Bananji when it comes to strategy?
By portrayal he's on the same level as Kou Chou. He left CHG confused multiple times in the arc with his strategical maneuvering. He countered the Qin hard multiple times. Even in the end when Ten and such thought they had the Zhao he effectively found a way to counter the Qin by retreating their forces back more, which would've put the Qin right wing not be able to help Riboku as their plan by slowly crushing the momentum they had built up. But since Gyou'un instead decided to not listen, resulting in Zhao losing Gyou'un, along with a good amount of the CHG and Gyou'un Army. Which resulted in a 3vs1 in terms of "commanders" on that side of the force. If Gyou'un had listened and retreated by like Bananji gave the order to. Him and Gyou'un would've effectively stopped them from pincering Riboku on time like they did, or not doing it at all period. Gyou'un possibly could've taken command of the whole wing, keeping the HSU busy, while Bananji went out to pincer Ousen. Riboku left the countering of Ousen's tactics to him for a reason you know.

He also effectively decided to call back all of the Zhao forces, despite receiving no order from Riboku. The same conclusion that Kou Chou came to.
 
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#34
I'll reflect back on Houken vs Bananji more once we see his "Demon" mode that he's been hyped for in the 2nd Zhao campaign.


2. I would have gone into the details and started picking out panels related to their feats and hype, but that is too much work, since they're not just in one arc, but the entire manga since the very start. I also just don't have the drive to dwell that deep into posts, since they waste a lot of time. I would rate Gyou'un above Berserk Bajio. He could give Gyou'un a high-diff fight, but that's about it.
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By portrayal he's on the same level as Kou Chou. He left CHG confused multiple times in the arc with his strategical maneuvering. He countered the Qin hard multiple times. Even in the end when Ten and such thought they had the Zhao he effectively found a way to counter the Qin by retreating their forces back more, which would've put the Qin right wing not be able to help Riboku as their plan by slowly crushing the momentum they had built up. But since Gyou'un instead decided to not listen, resulting in Zhao losing Gyou'un, along with a good amount of the CHG and Gyou'un Army. Which resulted in a 3vs1 in terms of "commanders" on that side of the force. If Gyou'un had listened and retreated by like Bananji gave the order to. Him and Gyou'un would've effectively stopped them from pincering Riboku on time like they did, or not doing it at all period. Gyou'un possibly could've taken command of the whole wing, keeping the HSU busy, while Bananji went out to pincer Ousen. Riboku left the countering of Ousen's tactics to him for a reason you know.

He also effectively decided to call back all of the Zhao forces, despite receiving no order from Riboku. The same conclusion that Kou Chou came to.
Fair enough

2. I thought berserker Bajio was more impressive than Gyou'un.

Ok that doesn't make any sense then. You have Bananji on par with Kashibou, the leader of Heavnly Kings, in Martial Might. Then you have him on par with Kou Chou in strategy. Then how is he below KouChou on your list?
 
#35
Fair enough

2. I thought berserker Bajio was more impressive than Gyou'un.

Ok that doesn't make any sense then. You have Bananji on par with Kashibou, the leader of Heavnly Kings, in Martial Might. Then you have him on par with Kou Chou in strategy. Then how is he below KouChou on your list?
2. He was more impressive physically. But better physically doesn't necessarily translate into better martially. Gyou'un would also have a bigger Weight of General backing him up, so it could end up as a Ouki vs Houken fight even if Bajio is on par with Gyou'un martially.


That's because KouChou has the experience over Bananji as a general. Bananji while experienced in warfare has never been pointed out to have any experience as a general. I'm sure Riboku would've appointed him as the commander of the left wing if he had.

Not to say it's not plausible that Bananji is top 3 general behind Riboku and Shibashou. Since he's also got the strategical portrayal of being on par with that dude who went against Yotanwa.

But if KouChou doesn't have 1 level higher experience on Bananji, then Bananji yes is superior to KouChou, but I believe he does, thus I put him as KouChou's inferior as a general.
 
#36
2. He was more impressive physically. But better physically doesn't necessarily translate into better martially. Gyou'un would also have a bigger Weight of General backing him up, so it could end up as a Ouki vs Houken fight even if Bajio is on par with Gyou'un martially.


That's because KouChou has the experience over Bananji as a general. Bananji while experienced in warfare has never been pointed out to have any experience as a general. I'm sure Riboku would've appointed him as the commander of the left wing if he had.

Not to say it's not plausible that Bananji is top 3 general behind Riboku and Shibashou. Since he's also got the strategical portrayal of being on par with that dude who went against Yotanwa.

But if KouChou doesn't have 1 level higher experience on Bananji, then Bananji yes is superior to KouChou, but I believe he does, thus I put him as KouChou's inferior as a general.
You really hold experience to be in that high of an importance huh. But this will be all for the discussion, thanks.
 
#37
By portrayal he's on the same level as Kou Chou. He left CHG confused multiple times in the arc with his strategical maneuvering.
Ko Chou has spent the past year stalling out Ousen, Kan Ki, and Yo Tan Wa by himself.

Bananji needed Riboku’s help to overcome Akou lol.

They are incomparable tactically, Ko Chou man handles Bananji in that regard.
 
#38
Ko Chou has spent the past year stalling out Ousen, Kan Ki, and Yo Tan Wa by himself.

Bananji needed Riboku’s help to overcome Akou lol.

They are incomparable tactically, Ko Chou man handles Bananji in that regard.
TBF, Ousen/Akou's defence was not your average formation. Gyou'un nor Chougaryuu seemed like they would find a counter even after days of battle.

Though i agree that Ko Chou is pretty damn hype. He's probably the strongest defensive general in Zhao rn.
 
#39
TBF, Ousen/Akou's defence was not your average formation. Gyou'un nor Chougaryuu seemed like they would find a counter even after days of battle.

Though i agree that Ko Chou is pretty damn hype. He's probably the strongest defensive general in Zhao rn.
Akou’s “Shells and Joints” defense is a tactic created by Ousen himself. Riboku figured the thing out after one day while Bananji seemed clueless.

Gunei also knew some of Ousen’s tactics and Gyou’Un utterly mauled Gunei. It’s clear Bananji is not in the same conversation as the best Zhao tacticians like Ko Chou.
 
#40
Akou’s “Shells and Joints” defense is a tactic created by Ousen himself. Riboku figured the thing out after one day while Bananji seemed clueless.

Gunei also knew some of Ousen’s tactics and Gyou’Un utterly mauled Gunei. It’s clear Bananji is not in the same conversation as the best Zhao tacticians like Ko Chou.
Oh come on, that's a bit too much wouldn't you say?

Gunei is a scrub in comparison to Akou and his application of Ousen's tactics. Besides, some folks have already outdone themselves with great posts showcasing why Bananji may have been the strongest General of Zhaos left wing during the War.
Even Garyuu has not only hyped his strength, but also his eye for tactics, well, not that we expected anything different from Riboku's right hand.

I also have Ko Chou in very high regard, just saying.
 
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