Chapter Discussion Zoro vs King and Zoro vs Enma needed separate revaluations

[Albino 👑]

While they obviously both happened during the same time they both required their own thing separate from the other.

Like zoro highlighted multiple times against king his main issue was that he didn’t understand how his body worked. With him obviously needing to understand how his lunarian body works to have a chance of winning

When it comes zoro struggling with enma the main reason was because the blade was testing him. Enma was pushing zoro to his limits by forcing out as much haki as possible. It was only till zoro fully excepted the challenge and not only that but emposed his will on it. He took its moniker along with unlocking conquerors in the process.

A lot of the confusion is while they’re separate revelations they both became fully realized pretty much at the same time. Him passing enma’s test and unlocking conquerors in the process + him figuring out how kings lunarian body works are still 2 separate things that aren’t a necessity for the other.
Even in king of hell mode all zoro and king were highlighting was zoro figuring out his body.

1. Conquerors was never unlocked to counter and beat king
2. It was never necessary to hurt him
3. Zoro never needed it to hurt lunarian in general
4. It really had nothing to do with him
5. People without conquerors can hurt and even beat lunarian

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Yes.

 

[ShadowStyle369]

Conquerors was necessary to scare king to the point of Turning off his practically invincible mode, even though king admitted that zoro found out how his body works king himself chose to block and dodge KoH zoro instead of tanking his attacks like he was doing with the flame on. The moment king started blocking and dodging zoro with his flame on was the moment king basically admits to the audience he can hurt me either way flame on or flame off.

 

[Albino 👑]

Conquerors was necessary to scare king to the point of Turning off his practically invincible mode, even though king admitted that zoro found out how his body works king himself chose to block and dodge KoH zoro instead of tanking his attacks like he was doing with the flame on. The moment king started blocking and dodging zoro with his flame on was the moment king basically admits to the audience he can hurt me either way flame on or flame off.

No it wasn’t tho and zoro cut king 2 times prior to even unlocking conquerors. First time was off screen when he cut his horn and second time was with tiger hunt. King was going in and out flame mode the whole fight which is how zoro put it all together and figured it out

King blocks attacks with his flame. He was even blocking zoro’s sword with his leg while zoro asked why he was blocking them. King even dodged 360 pre conquerors

Conquerors has never been a prerequisite to hurt lunarians and him unlocking it had nothing at all to do with king. Zoro has repeatedly over and over again highlighted how important it is to know how lunarian body’s work and to not waste energy by hitting them flame on

 

[ShadowStyle369]

No it wasn’t tho and zoro cut king 2 times prior to even unlocking conquerors. First time was off screen when he cut his horn and second time was with tiger hunt. King was going in and out flame mode the whole fight which is how zoro put it all together and figured it out

King blocks attacks with his flame. He was even blocking zoro’s sword with his leg while zoro asked why he was blocking them. King even dodged 360 pre conquerors

Conquerors has never been a prerequisite to hurt lunarians and him unlocking it had nothing at all to do with king. Zoro has repeatedly over and over again highlighted how important it is to know how lunarian body’s work and to not waste energy by hitting them flame on

But all that amounted to zoro admitting multiple times in the fight that he was not doing any damage.when did zoro admit that cutting the horn or tiger hunt did any damage? Zoro admits that he hit king with slashes but he was not bleeding the flame just keeps burning.

share images

this moment was significant because even though zoro knows the rules of kings body he finally makes a realization…. Ohhhhh why bother block my attacks I thought they did nothing to you? Unless you’re SCARED of what I can do. Only thanks to conquerors haki is king behaving differently where as prior to unlocking it he face tanked everything zoro threw at him even letting him stab him. Rather he is using his leg to block in tandem with his practically invincible mode or a sword kings actions prove he is scared of zoro when zoro calls him out on it.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

1. Conquerors was never unlocked to counter and beat king
2. It was never necessary to hurt him
3. Zoro never needed it to hurt lunarian in general
4. It really had nothing to do with him
5. People without conquerors can hurt and even beat lunarian

This is all basically true… the fight was written badly

Oda never even had Zoro make contact with Flame mode king using CoC… so it’s never clarified if Zoro can bypass King’s defense with just CoC

the fight weirdly just remains about Zoro figuring out king’s flame off shit but that’s made worse by the fact that Zoro figured it out OFFSCREEN… the literal decisive moment of the fight WAS OFFSCREEN… The chapter just starts with Zoro knowing the solution

So oda basically wasted a full chapter on Zoro learning CoC but the CoC never actually wins Zoro the fight… what wins Zoro the fight is learning King’s weakness… which Oda offscreens

Post automatically merged: Jul 16, 2023

king basically admits to the audience he can hurt me either way flame on or flame off.

@ShadowStyle369
This is what I thought too coming out of Wano… and then Egghead arrives and Zoro says both he and Luffy, the emperor CANNOT DAMAGE a seraphim unless they remove their flames

Oda even makes extra explicit when Zoro says this in front of Vegapunk who ALSO CONFIRMS that the fucking emperor cannot do anything to lunarians without them intentionally removing their defense

Nah man, until it happens onscreen, it seems like Oda is saying it’s more likely nothing can damage lunarians

 

[Albino 👑]

But all that amounted to zoro admitting multiple times in the fight that he was not doing any damage.when did zoro admit that cutting the horn or tiger hunt did any damage? Zoro admits that he hit king with slashes but he was not bleeding the flame just keeps burning.

share images

this moment was significant because even though zoro knows the rules of kings body he finally makes a realization…. Ohhhhh why bother block my attacks I thought they did nothing to you? Unless you’re SCARED of what I can do. Only thanks to conquerors haki is king behaving differently where as prior to unlocking it he face tanked everything zoro threw at him even letting him stab him. Rather he is using his leg to block in tandem with his practically invincible mode or a sword kings actions prove he is scared of zoro when zoro calls him out on it.

The only thing he could have based it on wre those prior moments. Him finally being able to cut him successfully and just kings reaction each time
zoro both with and without conquerors has never hurt flame on king. King like all the other over confident Dino zoans and durable characters in general are confident in his toughness. He was acting as if all of zoro’s attacks weren’t that big a deal for him even the conqueror ones that landed.
King was blocking with his flame preventing zoro from hurting his “base” self. Even tho king was trying to downplay his attacks. Same thing kaido and queen did to luffy and sanji

Also again no because prior to conquerors king was also blocking, dodging, and even try to disarm zoro. The same things he did after. The whole chapter focuses on zoro figuring out his secret and king literally in the page you posted king commends zoro for it. King is only scared of what zoro can do to him outside of his flame

Unlocking conquerors never had anything to do with king or his lunarian gimmick. And believing it’s a necessity to beat king or lunarian in general is extreme cap

 

[ShadowStyle369]

The only thing he could have based it on wre those prior moments. Him finally being able to cut him successfully and just kings reaction each time
zoro both with and without conquerors has never hurt flame on king. King like all the other over confident Dino zoans and durable characters in general are confident in his toughness. He was acting as if all of zoro’s attacks weren’t that big a deal for him even the conqueror ones that landed.
King was blocking with his flame preventing zoro from hurting his “base” self. Even tho king was trying to downplay his attacks. Same thing kaido and queen did to luffy and sanji

Also again no because prior to conquerors king was also blocking, dodging, and even try to disarm zoro. The same things he did after. The whole chapter focuses on zoro figuring out his secret and king literally in the page you posted king commends zoro for it. King is only scared of what zoro can do to him outside of his flame

Unlocking conquerors never had anything to do with king or his lunarian gimmick. And believing it’s a necessity to beat king or lunarian in general is extreme cap

Yes king commends zoro for it you are absolutely right… but then what comes right after that commendation???? ZORO SAYS OHHHH!!! (realizes something) WHY BOTHER TO BLOCK MY ATTACKS? I thought they did nothing to you? (Zoros previous experience with flame on king all his attacks amounted to nothing by his own admition) Unless you are SCARED of what I can do. King immediately turns off flame mode and creates space to launch final attack. I am not arguing that zoro ever hurt flame on mode king rather that by kings own actions at the end of the fight prove that he did not want zoro touching him with flame on or off with his adv coc coated attacks.

 

[Albino 👑]

This is all basically true… the fight was written badly

Oda never even had Zoro make contact with Flame mode king using CoC… so it’s never clarified if Zoro can bypass King’s defense with just CoC

the fight weirdly just remains about Zoro figuring out king’s flame off shit but that’s made worse by the fact that Zoro figured it out OFFSCREEN… the literal decisive moment of the fight WAS OFFSCREEN… The chapter just starts with Zoro knowing the solution

So oda basically wasted a full chapter on Zoro learning CoC but the CoC never actually wins Zoro the fight… what wins Zoro the fight is learning King’s weakness… which Oda offscreens

Post automatically merged: Jul 16, 2023

@ShadowStyle369
This is what I thought too coming out of Wano… and then Egghead arrives and Zoro says both he and Luffy, the emperor CANNOT DAMAGE a seraphim unless they remove their flames

Oda even makes extra explicit when Zoro says this in front of Vegapunk who ALSO CONFIRMS that the fucking emperor cannot do anything to lunarians without them intentionally removing their defense

Nah man, until it happens onscreen, it seems like Oda is saying it’s more likely nothing can damage lunarians

It’s lowkey weird how zoro’s first successful attack on king was done off screen (even tho it was just a spike) along with his first successful one when he realized how his body worked

Outside of zoro clashing with his leg not really. Instead we got reminded multiple times by zoro that attacking while his flame was on was useless. And again king giving him props for realizing
It’s also not like king was afraid by the fact zoro unlocked conquerors or anything. He gave no hints or suggestions that conquerors was his races weakness

Oda should have given the fight more focus like he did with Sanji vs queen. The only reason he probably didn’t is because zoro went to the roof so he probably believed he didn’t need to focus much on him afterwards. While sanji didn’t do most his focus came from his fight with queen

Speaking of the seraphim even zoro post explaining how lunarian powers work and apologizing for wasting his along with everyone else’s stamina doesn’t once mention conquerors haki.

Even gets upset that s-hawk won’t turn his flame off right before he leaves

 

[ShadowStyle369]

It’s lowkey weird how zoro’s first successful attack on king was done off screen (even tho it was just a spike) along with his first successful one when he realized how his body worked

Outside of zoro clashing with his leg not really. Instead we got reminded multiple times by zoro that attacking while his flame was on was useless. And again king giving him props for realizing
It’s also not like king was afraid by the fact zoro unlocked conquerors or anything. He gave no hints or suggestions that conquerors was his races weakness

Oda should have given the fight more focus like he did with Sanji vs queen. The only reason he probably didn’t is because zoro went to the roof so he probably believed he didn’t need to focus much on him afterwards. While sanji didn’t do most his focus came from his fight with queen

Speaking of the seraphim even zoro post explaining how lunarian powers work and apologizing for wasting his along with everyone else’s stamina doesn’t once mention conquerors haki.

Even gets upset that s-hawk won’t turn his flame off right before he leaves

Unless oda is retconning this is simply pis until oda wants zoro and luffy to go all out just like king they will turn of the flame then and get defeated or oda will prove that with adv coc u can actually do damage to flame on mode

 

[HA001]

King didn't block shit with his leg.

it's as dumb as saying kaido clashed with his dick here

 

[Albino 👑]

Yes king commends zoro for it you are absolutely right… but then what comes right after that commendation???? ZORO SAYS OHHHH!!! (realizes something) WHY BOTHER TO BLOCK MY ATTACKS? I thought they did nothing to you? (Zoros previous experience with flame on king all his attacks amounted to nothing by his own admition) Unless you are SCARED of what I can do. King immediately turns off flame mode and creates space to launch final attack. I am not arguing that zoro ever hurt flame on mode king rather that by kings own actions at the end of the fight prove that he did not want zoro touching him with flame on or off with his adv coc coated attacks.

King was blocking and clashing with zoro with his leg while zoro said that. Zoro isn’t asking king why is he using his leg he’s taunting king to go back to his off flame mode
King even without his flame was acting as if zoro wasn’t doing a lot of damage despite the fact he was. Again just like with kaido, queen, or even Ulti with them downplaying the damage they received

It was never insinuated or hinted zoro was capable of hurting flame on king. All zoro wanting was for him to turn it off to give him the opportunity to attack. Something king does despite also trying to keep his distance from zoro

Unless oda is retconning this is simply pis until oda wants zoro and luffy to go all out just like king they will turn of the flame then and get defeated or oda will prove that with adv coc u can actually do damage to flame on mode

There’s no retcon or pis
It’s just confusion from zoro unlocking conquerors when better mastering enma and him figuring out kings lunarian abilities at the same time

Zoro who has already beat one has never hinted he needed conquerors specifically to counter king. He also never brought it up or used it when dealing with s-hawk. Him just wasting stamina and energy instead

 

[CbShadow]

]
This is what I thought too coming out of Wano… and then Egghead arrives and Zoro says both he and Luffy, the emperor CANNOT DAMAGE a seraphim unless they remove their flames

Oda even makes extra explicit when Zoro says this in front of Vegapunk who ALSO CONFIRMS that the fucking emperor cannot do anything to lunarians without them intentionally removing their defense

Nah man, until it happens onscreen, it seems like Oda is saying it’s more likely nothing can damage lunarians

The problem with the fight against the seraphims on Egghead island is even though Luffy compared them Kaido, who he required ACoC to cause any true damage, he doesn't try ACoC against them at all. That was before Zoro explained to everyone how their body works.

We need to call it what it is, bad writing. Oda doesn't want them to defeat the seraphim too quickly with ACoC so he doesn't allow them to use it at all.

About King's leg. Some have forgotten he can release spikes from his shoes, just like his gloves.

 

[Herrera95]

When it comes zoro struggling with enma the main reason was because the blade was testing him. Enma was pushing zoro to his limits by forcing out as much haki as possible. It was only till zoro fully excepted the challenge and not only that but emposed his will on it. He took its moniker along with unlocking conquerors in the process.

Bullshit.

First of all Zoro already had gave his all against Kaido on Asura. That's one of the reasons I keep saying it had CoC coating on that attack.

Second, Zoro can't unlock conqueror by giving it's all to Enma. Is not how it worked. Extreme situations unlock haki and make it bloom. Hakai was what unlocked CoC to Zoro. Not Enma.

 

[ShadowStyle369]

King was blocking and clashing with zoro with his leg while zoro said that. Zoro isn’t asking king why is he using his leg he’s taunting king to go back to his off flame mode
King even without his flame was acting as if zoro wasn’t doing a lot of damage despite the fact he was. Again just like with kaido, queen, or even Ulti with them downplaying the damage they received

It was never insinuated or hinted zoro was capable of hurting flame on king. All zoro wanting was for him to turn it off to give him the opportunity to attack. Something king does despite also trying to keep his distance from zoro



There’s no retcon or pis
It’s just confusion from zoro unlocking conquerors when better mastering enma and him figuring out kings lunarian abilities at the same time

Zoro who has already beat one has never hinted he needed conquerors specifically to counter king. He also never brought it up or used it when dealing with s-hawk. Him just wasting stamina and energy instead

Lol do you not hear yourself??? So zoro taunts king (you are scared of what I can do) into Turing off his flame and king someone who kaido trusted first mate just decides to listen to the man trying to cut him up and turns off his practically invincible mode ? 😂😂😂 good job u made me laugh … as stupid as it sounds unless oda is retconning adv coc haki is the answer simply take what zoro said to king at face value, how he did scare king into Turning off his flame and now ask why he has not allowed yonko luffy or master swordsman zoro to flex adv coc on them yet??? Luffy himself admits they are tough like kaido and yet even he has not used the ability that was necessary to do major damage to kaido…. Adv coc

 

[Herrera95]

1. Conquerors was never unlocked to counter and beat king
2. It was never necessary to hurt him
3. Zoro never needed it to hurt lunarian in general
4. It really had nothing to do with him
5. People without conquerors can hurt and even beat lunarian

That depends...

Yes CoC was never necessarily to beat King. Even before this and understanding his abilities he was putting a good fight against him toe to toe.

It was never necessary to hurt FLAMES OFF KING. But it seems it was able to hurt FLAMES ON KING near end of the fight.

 

[MonsterKaido]

King > Kata. Cry

 

[Albino 👑]

Bullshit.

First of all Zoro already had gave his all against Kaido on Asura. That's one of the reasons I keep saying it had CoC coating on that attack.

Second, Zoro can't unlock conqueror by giving it's all to Enma. Is not how it worked. Extreme situations unlock haki and make it bloom. Hakai was what unlocked CoC to Zoro. Not Enma.

Ok then his better mastery of enma allowed him to come to the realization he had it. The main point is he never unlocked conquerors in order to bypass lunarian defense or beat king

Lol do you not hear yourself??? So zoro taunts king (you are scared of what I can do) into Turing off his flame and king someone who kaido trusted first mate just decides to listen to the man trying to cut him up and turns off his practically invincible mode ? 😂😂😂 good job u made me laugh … as stupid as it sounds unless oda is retconning adv coc haki is the answer simply take what zoro said to king at face value, how he did scare king into Turning off his flame and now ask why he has not allowed yonko luffy or master swordsman zoro to flex adv coc on them yet??? Luffy himself admits they are tough like kaido and yet even he has not used the ability that was necessary to do major damage to kaido…. Adv coc

Yes characters have pride and aren’t 100% going to do the smartest or most logical things

And again even before conquerors he was going in and out his flame mode

You misunderstanding or being confused isn’t a retcon. Like how many times has zoro highlighted the importance of needing to hurt them while their flame is off. He did it after he unlocked conquerors against king and multiple times against the lunarian

 

[ShadowStyle369]

Ok then his better mastery of enma allowed him to come to the realization he had it. The main point is he never unlocked conquerors in order to bypass lunarian defense or beat king

Yes characters have pride and aren’t 100% going to do the smartest or most logical things

And again even before conquerors he was going in and out his flame mode

You misunderstanding or being confused isn’t a retcon. Like how many times has zoro highlighted the importance of needing to hurt them while their flame is off. He did it after he unlocked conquerors against king and multiple times against the lunarian

What’s crazy is you can headcannon that king made a stupid decision and turned off his flame which lead to his defeat… and yet u can ignore zoro entire statement at the end of the fight that because of what he can do now ( adv coc) king is finally scared of him even with his flame on show me a panel at any point in the fight where king was afraid of zoro with his flame on? You can not find such a panel the only thing you will find is king tanking black rope dragon twister a attack that worked on kaido…. Zoro using shi shi son son and saying it didn’t work… zoro stabbing flame on king which resulted in king blowing up and not being fazed at all. I grasp and understand the importance of the flame needing to be off but again how do we get to that moment where the flame gets turned off ??? You have to scare them just like zoro did king with adv coc he’ll just look at the seraphim luffy can not get the flame to go out and he is not using adv coc 😂

 

[Manos. AsuraZoro]

King knows better man and in your post you are not analyzing kings behaviour after koh.
King was blocking even with fire on, he knew way better than zoro what zoro attacks are capable of.
We still haven't seen someone beat a lunarian, not even a kid lunarian to be more precise.
King was worried that zoro can hurt him after adv COC and that was proven after oni giri.
In my mind king knew that an elite conqueror could hurt him and he changed his whole approach against zoro, maybe because zoro and king's captain share that same power?
I do agree though that other people can hurt a lunarian but with a very rare and powerful abilities (maybe lol)