Speculations Zoro's Second Confrontation With Kaido?
- Thread starter KiriNigiri
- Start date
- Tags #facts
I agree that the last chapter had an anti-climatic ending for Zoro's character. If Zoro scarring Kaido was going to be the climax of his character arc in Wano, why have it be overshadowed by Luffy unlocking advanced CoC immediately afterwards? Given where we are right now, it feels far too early for Zoro to sit the rest of the arc out. We still don't have a match up for Sanji, nor do we have any idea as to the intentions of the remaining Big Mom Pirates.
I think Enma has to become black in Wano. Why else would Oda introduce the concept of an almost black blade?
His sword from Kuma will presumably turn black upon becoming WSS, as this links the "will" of the blade with its blackening. For the same to occur for Enma, the only possibility is repeating Oden's feat or surpassing it. Given that Zoro just scarred Kaido, that leaves killing Kaido as the only remaining possibility. Could Enma turn black upon defeating Smoothie? Sure, but it would ruin so many parallels and narrative themes that have been carefully setup over the past decade.
First, we have Ryuma (who shares many parallels to Zoro), the samurai who wielded a black blade and slayed a Western Dragon. Zoro then slays a Western Dragon with said blade. Then we have Oden (who also shares many parellels to Zoro), a samurai who almost killed an Eastern Dragon with an almost black black. Zoro then exchanges the black blade that killed a Western Dragon (twice) for an almost black blade that almost killed an Eastern Dragon. Zoro then states his desire to take the head of an Eastern Dragon and proceeds to fight said dragon shortly after. Furthermore, in case it wasn't too obvious (apparently it wasn't), Oda goes on to emphasize the theme of inherited will, in the specific context of swords, when we learn that in Wano samurais will pick up the blades of their fallen comrades so that their will lives on, even after death.
Over many years Oda has set up a carefully constructed narrative that incorporates swords and their blackening, dragons, and inherited will. The only logical ending to this narrative would be Zoro using Enma to kill Kaido and blackening the blade as a result. I would even argue that without having this ending in mind, an author would have been unable to write such a narrative into the story to begin with.
On top of all this, we have another narrative of Zoro becoming a legendary swordsman, whose "name will reach the heavens." Ryuma became the hero of Wano after beheading a dragon over the Flower Capital. Given that One Piece was originally supposed to be about the Straw Hats overcoming the Yonkos, and the introduction of Ryuma fairly early into the story, as well as the fact that Oda made Wano Zoro's ancestral home, we can assume that Oda intended to have the Straw Hats face off against Eastern Dragon in Wano from the onset of the story.
Thus, in 1999, it is not unlikely that already Oda knew the following:
- A swordsman from Wano was to be the second member of the crew
- That swordsman would have a desire to become a legendary figure and surpass all other swordsmen
- He would be following in the footsteps of another legendary swordsman who slayed a Western Dragon above the Flower Capital in Wano
- The Straw Hats would eventually face off against an Eastern Dragon in Wano
- That he desired to draw a dragon being beheaded (from commentary on "Monsters")
Is it possible that Oda created Kaido and Zoro independently from one another before deciding to link them together (via Wano and Ryuma)? Possibly, but I think the desire for a swordsmen beheading a dragon likely served as the basis for both characters, given his remarks on "Monsters."
Unless Zoro kills Kaido, Oda would be retconning two different (but interconnected) narratives that he has arguably been setting up over two decades. Not to mention the fact, that I have yet to hear a compelling alternative to kill Kaido (who really needs to die this arc), perhaps Luffy can just punch a giant hole in his head...
I think Enma has to become black in Wano. Why else would Oda introduce the concept of an almost black blade?
His sword from Kuma will presumably turn black upon becoming WSS, as this links the "will" of the blade with its blackening. For the same to occur for Enma, the only possibility is repeating Oden's feat or surpassing it. Given that Zoro just scarred Kaido, that leaves killing Kaido as the only remaining possibility. Could Enma turn black upon defeating Smoothie? Sure, but it would ruin so many parallels and narrative themes that have been carefully setup over the past decade.
First, we have Ryuma (who shares many parallels to Zoro), the samurai who wielded a black blade and slayed a Western Dragon. Zoro then slays a Western Dragon with said blade. Then we have Oden (who also shares many parellels to Zoro), a samurai who almost killed an Eastern Dragon with an almost black black. Zoro then exchanges the black blade that killed a Western Dragon (twice) for an almost black blade that almost killed an Eastern Dragon. Zoro then states his desire to take the head of an Eastern Dragon and proceeds to fight said dragon shortly after. Furthermore, in case it wasn't too obvious (apparently it wasn't), Oda goes on to emphasize the theme of inherited will, in the specific context of swords, when we learn that in Wano samurais will pick up the blades of their fallen comrades so that their will lives on, even after death.
Over many years Oda has set up a carefully constructed narrative that incorporates swords and their blackening, dragons, and inherited will. The only logical ending to this narrative would be Zoro using Enma to kill Kaido and blackening the blade as a result. I would even argue that without having this ending in mind, an author would have been unable to write such a narrative into the story to begin with.
On top of all this, we have another narrative of Zoro becoming a legendary swordsman, whose "name will reach the heavens." Ryuma became the hero of Wano after beheading a dragon over the Flower Capital. Given that One Piece was originally supposed to be about the Straw Hats overcoming the Yonkos, and the introduction of Ryuma fairly early into the story, as well as the fact that Oda made Wano Zoro's ancestral home, we can assume that Oda intended to have the Straw Hats face off against Eastern Dragon in Wano from the onset of the story.
Thus, in 1999, it is not unlikely that already Oda knew the following:
- A swordsman from Wano was to be the second member of the crew
- That swordsman would have a desire to become a legendary figure and surpass all other swordsmen
- He would be following in the footsteps of another legendary swordsman who slayed a Western Dragon above the Flower Capital in Wano
- The Straw Hats would eventually face off against an Eastern Dragon in Wano
- That he desired to draw a dragon being beheaded (from commentary on "Monsters")
Is it possible that Oda created Kaido and Zoro independently from one another before deciding to link them together (via Wano and Ryuma)? Possibly, but I think the desire for a swordsmen beheading a dragon likely served as the basis for both characters, given his remarks on "Monsters."
Unless Zoro kills Kaido, Oda would be retconning two different (but interconnected) narratives that he has arguably been setting up over two decades. Not to mention the fact, that I have yet to hear a compelling alternative to kill Kaido (who really needs to die this arc), perhaps Luffy can just punch a giant hole in his head...
Last edited:
Kuina*
Killing=/=defeating. Depends on the context mostly but Zoro will probably kill a kamikaze Kaido that will use all the strength that he has left to either blow up the capital or try to take out a weakened Luffy.
I guess they will never call Luffy a "real" Yonko then. After 1010 chapters of One Piece and 20 years there is still ppl left that doesn't realize that Luffy won't kill no matter what.
Killing=/=defeating. Depends on the context mostly but Zoro will probably kill a kamikaze Kaido that will use all the strength that he has left to either blow up the capital or try to take out a weakened Luffy.
I guess they will never call Luffy a "real" Yonko then. After 1010 chapters of One Piece and 20 years there is still ppl left that doesn't realize that Luffy won't kill no matter what.
I mean, if zoro kills kaido who is stronger than mihawk, what's the point of zoro vs mihawk later on ? :zorothink:
And if it's zoro and not luffy who slays kaido, luffy being called a "yonko" wouldn't make any sense since it's not even him who ended kaido's life ...
And if it's zoro and not luffy who slays kaido, luffy being called a "yonko" wouldn't make any sense since it's not even him who ended kaido's life ...
The idea that Luffy beats Kaido without help from this point on means that he is considered the strongest one on one fighter. I don't think it's very likely unless Oda is finally moving him past being the underdog type of protagonist... which I wouldn't mind, but it still seems a little less likely than having Zoro known as a dragon slayer. I mean once we got to the point in the story where Kaido would evidently be above the capital it became pretty hard to deny. Oda not following on that tease would be pretty crazy.
what if the samurai to surpass Oden wasn't Zoro, rather Luffy?
I mean did Kaido not directly compare Luffy to oden after Luffy hit him with red roc?
Anyways zoro failed and he's going to have to live with it. He took massive damage and used everything in his arsenal. It doesn't make any logical sense for him to just come back and cut off kaido's head. No, Marco can't do any magic healing on him either because marco's healing only heals injuries, it doesn't replenish stamina(the samurai using his flames to ward off queen's disease stated the flames were eating their stamina).
Yeah, he can come back, but I think its far more likely that zoro's fight with kaido was his big fight of wano and that his subplot from here on out will focus on orochi. Zoro did say he wanted to kill orochi and he has big ties with hiyori, who is likely on onigashima. Zoro's also not going to betray his captain's orders by going back to the rooftop when he was explicitly told to stay down.
I mean did Kaido not directly compare Luffy to oden after Luffy hit him with red roc?
Anyways zoro failed and he's going to have to live with it. He took massive damage and used everything in his arsenal. It doesn't make any logical sense for him to just come back and cut off kaido's head. No, Marco can't do any magic healing on him either because marco's healing only heals injuries, it doesn't replenish stamina(the samurai using his flames to ward off queen's disease stated the flames were eating their stamina).
Yeah, he can come back, but I think its far more likely that zoro's fight with kaido was his big fight of wano and that his subplot from here on out will focus on orochi. Zoro did say he wanted to kill orochi and he has big ties with hiyori, who is likely on onigashima. Zoro's also not going to betray his captain's orders by going back to the rooftop when he was explicitly told to stay down.
What you are saying could be correct but there is a big but, Onigashima is not the last place of this battle, it will be in the flower capital, which all this discussion about stay down go up to the roof make 0 sense just due to different location. So the theory about Zoro having a final say vs Kaido hanst change at all, the flying dragon cut that missed once over Onigashima will not miss over the flower capital.
It is almost like poetry. Still he has good reason to bring back Zoro vs Kaido.
The new vivre card for Zoro stated that Zoro target is Kaido. That all you need to know.
It is almost like poetry. Still he has good reason to bring back Zoro vs Kaido.
The new vivre card for Zoro stated that Zoro target is Kaido. That all you need to know.
Well for once that attack was used century ago to cut down a dragon, in Wano over a capital and that left a legacy in Wano that lasted centuries (he is mention as God Sword).
Which legacy will have Zoro (the man that aim to be the wss) in Wano?
Nah, the vivre card said clearly Zoro target is Kaido. But dealing a scar isnt enough of a legacy to be remember for century like Ryuma by the citizens of the flower capital. It need to be something equal if not higher to what Ryuma did. So using the same movement that Ryuma used the flying dragon slash is actually poetry.
Which legacy will have Zoro (the man that aim to be the wss) in Wano?
Nah, the vivre card said clearly Zoro target is Kaido. But dealing a scar isnt enough of a legacy to be remember for century like Ryuma by the citizens of the flower capital. It need to be something equal if not higher to what Ryuma did. So using the same movement that Ryuma used the flying dragon slash is actually poetry.