Speculations Zoro's Second Confrontation With Kaido?

#41
For me it boils down to the foreshadowing about taking Kaido's head. The closure for the fight and credibility established are enough, especially if the only decent chance Zoro can do anything is by getting healed. We even had that very Oda thing, where Kaido can't help but condescend to Luffy beyond logic, but gives Zoro his due based on nothing less than his actions.


I think its best if we wait for Zoro's dialogue next chapter (if he has) so we can properly guage where he's at mentally. There are some things I fundamentally disagree with here but this is a great post. What is a great discussion of there weren't disagreements?

A lot of this imo comes with the notion that they have legitimate unfinished business with each other which i don't agree with or implicitly tying things to Zoro but not to Luffy. A lot of what you have provided actually proves why this is central to Luffy and not Zoro. Things like:

- Kaido saying he respects the samurai, but doesn't reflect the same on Zoro. Kaido has already reacted to Zoro and his prowess in his own way. He has reacted to the new scar and his CoC, I think its unfair to say that this wasn't already achieved. Zoro also technically is not a Samurai, and I think that is very cut in dry by the way Kaido has reacted to Zoro as a whole. Kaido also can't react to Zoro if he's dead from ZKK so...I'm not sure how we are supposed to get further acknowledgement if the next step is virtually killing him.


- Enma turning black by cutting Kaido was never guaranteed. All Tengu says is in Zoro's hands, he's confident he can turn it black. It actually says nothing about it happening this arc. Enma's function/role this arc has already technically played out. He did cut Kaido

- Zoro already has damaged and cut Kaido as the story presented, Zoro failing to bring Kaido down on his own was never merited as an actual storyline that needed to be resolved.

- It has been heavily conflated that Oden's will is solely within Zoro, when we know that's not true. There is this notion that because Zoro has Enma, he must be the one fully carrying Oden's will and be the one to defeat Kaido. However, outsidr of that fact, there really is nothing tying Oden and Zoro together.

- Its actually Luffy that was always given the direct Oden parallels. When Kaido was punched the first time, Oden is in the backdrop behind Luffy, as if Kaido is looking at an opponent "like" Oden and the others. Luffy is the one that avenges the Scabbards, not Zoro. Luffy is the one Yamato suggests he should "be" Oden to defeat Kaido, not Zoro. Luffy is the one who has had directly more connections with Momo, Kinemon and the majority of Wano's citizens when it comes to the notion of defeating Kaido and liberating Wano.

- Zoro's "feat" with Kaido comes off WAY more selfish, because it's him attempting tp challenge and beat the WSC. That's not say Zoro doesn't have good intentions, but Luffy isn't just there to surpass the Yonko, he's there to avenge the samurai, he's there to defeat Kaido for Momo, he's there to liberate Wano. These are all things Luffy himself has proclaimed.


So listen I totally get the "idea" that Zoro has unfinished business with Kaido, but truly this has not really been promised or set up by the story. Kaido's dialogue has to do with the scabbards failure to be the living will of Oden. Kinemon asks Luffy to carry this burden not Zoro.

The parallel of someone surpassing Kaido like Oden is entirely a parallel to Luffy, NOT to Zoro. I really hope people don't hate me for this comment. I'm not trying to actively bash Zoro. He's still my favorite character like 80% of this forum, the problem is I cannot get behind some false expectations set by the fanbase when it comes to what they expect Zoro deserves this arc.

So like I said in the beginning, let's wait and see what Zoro's mindset is like. If he listens to Luffy and says he leaves it to him, or if he tells Law to have faith in Luffy, then I think people really need to start climbing down from this hype train. Zoro is not Luffy. Zoro receives less than half of Luffy's screentime. The manga has almost always centered on Luffy being the savior of X kingdom, not Zoro. Zoro's big moment at Thriller Bark ironically was entirely centered around Luffy and giving up his dream for him. He even threw away the notion of his dream by having his goal train him to get stronger for Luffy, he begged Mihawk for this. It is just what it is.


Tldr: Zoro's merit in the plot does not supercede Luffy's. I'm sorry but it's just fact and I hope this fanbase isn't crushed by the idea that Zoro is supposed to attain a much larger growth/feat/moment against the first Yonko defeat than Luffy.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.
The thing is, Zoro's Onigashima arc has been perpetuated by his selflessness. From seeking Luffy to pulling Luffy out of the fire as people laughed, to teaming up to get to the roof, to the roof where the only move he's had outside of defending someone else was Oni Giri. Asura was the limit of his humility as he trusted Law to handle the rest over his belief in finishing the job.

I think the most basic storytelling element is to reward him for his sacrifice and in addition or separately resolve his biggest running plot: avenging Yasuie.

Zoro's first self centered motivation may be the revelation brought by 1010. If he lives to get stronger this conqueror thing will come up again soon.
 
#42
For me it boils down to the foreshadowing about taking Kaido's head. The closure for the fight and credibility established are enough, especially if the only decent chance Zoro can do anything is by getting healed. We even had that very Oda thing, where Kaido can't help but condescend to Luffy beyond logic, but give Zoro his due based on nothing less than his actions.




The thing is, Zoro's Onigashima arc has been perpetuated by his selflessness. From seeking Luffy to pulling Luffy out of the fire as people laughed, to teaming up to get to the roof, to the roof where the only move he's had outside of defending someone else was Oni Giri. Asura was the limit of his humility as he trusted Law to handle the rest over his belief in finishing the job.

I think the most basic storytelling element is to reward him for his sacrifice and in addition or separately resolve his biggest running plot: avenging Yasuie.

Zoro's first self centered motivation may be the revelation brought by 1010. If he lives to get stronger this conqueror thing will come up again soon.
If it's the idea of ending the threat of Kaido after Luffy has won, im all here for it. That actually does make sense. It does make sense that Odens swords are the reason both Kaido and Orochi are dead. It does make sense in a samurai based arc to kill the enemy as an exception.

My only concern is Oda either committing committing that idea or the notion that "some" of the fanbase believes Zoro's merit to continue to to Kaido (not just kill him, there is a difference) supercedes Luffy's.

That's what I'm trying to say. If Zoro goes downstairs, recovers and improves his CoC skills against a YC, learns his history with Wano, then kills Kaido after Luffy wins, I'm totally okay with that and would praise the fuck out of Oda for committing to the themes he clearly has set for the arc (Enma=God of Death and Kaido is infatuated with Death, Ame being the snake slayer).

On that front I hope it happens, sorry if that comment wasn't clear about that (it wasnt)
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#43
If it's the idea of ending the threat of Kaido after Luffy has won, im all here for it. That actually does make sense. It does make sense that Odens swords are the reason both Kaido and Orochi are dead. It does make sense in a samurai based arc to kill the enemy as an exception.

My only concern is Oda either committing committing that idea or the notion that "some" of the fanbase believes Zoro's merit to continue to to Kaido (not just kill him, there is a difference) supercedes Luffy's.

That's what I'm trying to say. If Zoro goes downstairs, recovers and improves his CoC skills against a YC, learns his history with Wano, then kills Kaido after Luffy wins, I'm totally okay with that and would praise the fuck out of Oda for committing to the themes he clearly has set for the arc (Enma=God of Death and Kaido is infatuated with Death, Ame being the snake slayer).

On that front I hope it happens, sorry if that comment wasn't clear about that (it wasnt)
Then why are we even arguing.
 
#44
Then why are we even arguing.
Because im a huge skeptic of Oda committing to what people want lol.

A lot of what we tie to Zoro can also be tied to Luffy * (carrying the burden of Odens will, defeating kaido for momo, etc) . That is a fact and I'm just half expecting Oda to left Luffy defeat the villain as he's always done and not commit to central values about death, etc.

This is the same author who let Pell live, every character Enel essentially vaporized live, every member of Galley La and Franky family live against an entire government facility and a buster call, has let virtually every villain live outside of Monet and Vergo (which unfortunately is offscreened so we can never truly be "sure") and finally Pound.

I've mentioned before I half expect Pedro to just shockingly show up with Peckoms (since that was also cliffhanger) because it would be 100% in Odas nature to do so and ruin what he set up before.

I specifically say that Luffy's merit on Kaido supercedes Zoro precisely because I'm skeptical I. the actual conceot of death finalizing his characters. Yes, there is totally an argument for it. Yes there are examples that prove Oda does unexpected shit (Vergo, Monet, Ace and Whitebeard), but one can never be "too" careful about expecting it.

There is a reason death is a meme in this series
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#47
Because im a huge skeptic of Oda committing to what people want lol.

A lot of what we tie to Zoro can also be tied to Luffy. That is a fact and I'm just half expecting Oda to left Luffy defeat the villain as he's always done and not commit to central values about death, etc.

This is the same author who let Pell live, every character Enel essentially vaporized live, every member of Galley La and Franky family live against an entire government facility and a buster call, has let virtually every villain live outside of Monet and Vergo (which unfortunately is offscreened so we can never truly be "sure") and finally Pound.

I've mentioned before I half expect Pedro to just shockingly show up with Peckoms (since that was also cliffhanger) because it would be 100% in Odas nature to do so and ruin what he set up before.

I specifically say that Luffy's merit on Kaido supercedes Zoro precisely because I'm skeptical I. the actual conceot of death finalizing his characters. Yes, there is totally an argument for it. Yes there are examples that prove Oda does unexpected shit (Vergo, Monet, Ace and Whitebeard), but one can never be "too" careful about expecting it.

There is a reason death is a meme in this series
It can be a meme for all of those characters. But death a running theme in this arc. I expect all yonko to die (except meme only due to olin but big mom the yonko will be dead for good) They are too strong to keep around they can't be contained and they have no place in the new era.
The second we got odens swords named for me at least it was clear they'd be used to kill each tyrant they are symbolised to be used against. Opening wanos borders is the end of kozuki odens story. It's only fitting his swords play a huge role in doing so.
 
#48
A 100% spot on thread yet again.

That panel in the latest chapter where Kaido has the black CoC lighting coming out of his club after he Thunder Baguas the hell out of both Zoro and Law is how Zoro is gonna look like once he is back to normal and ready for Round 2 on top of Mount Fuji and then over the Flower Capital.

Luffy isn't soloing Kaido and Big Mom. That's just not happening. This is still a 5v2 fight, and no matter how hard you hit Kaido he will always get back up like nothing happened.

Only a swordsman who is also a CoC user can do the job of taking his head.
 
#49
It can be a meme for all of those characters. But death a running theme in this arc. I expect all yonko to die (except meme only due to olin but big mom the yonko will be dead for good) They are too strong to keep around they can't be contained and they have no place in the new era.
The second we got odens swords named for me at least it was clear they'd be used to kill each tyrant they are symbolised to be used against. Opening wanos borders is the end of kozuki odens story. It's only fitting his swords play a huge role in doing so.
I actually hope you are right lol

Do I care about what actually happens at the end of the arc? Not really, but I do repeatedly get disappointed by Oda's tendencies to not commit to certain themes (mainly death) outside of an extremely few key moments in the series, especially with the way he handles villains.

Hopefully he does commit here. I do even half expect for Luffy to die at the end of the series since Oda has essentially called it "bittersweet". Him being a flicker for 2 years and turning into a legend is precisely what I have come to expect from the series, and what I would LOVE to see. I do think that completes Luffy's story. THAT is a concept of death I "hope" Oda commits to as well (if he continues to talk about Luffy shortening his lifespan, Luffy not caring if he dies, etc), though it's something i can't actually, truly hope for without feeling like I'll be disappointed.

It's why I'll never say "Luffy will die in the EoS", but you'll see me say "Luffy MAY die in the EoS". Imo, ZKK MAY happen, and I hope it does because it works on paper well, I just have major skepticisms about his intentions and play devils advocate a lot.

That obviously seems to make me come off as anti-zoro or ZKK but it's normally not my intention lol
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#50
I actually hope you are right lol

Do I care about what actually happens at the end of the arc? Not really, but I do repeatedly get disappointed by Oda's tendencies to not commit to certain themes (mainly death) outside of an extremely few key moments in the series, especially with the way he handles villains.

Hopefully he does commit here. I do even half expect for Luffy to die at the end of the series since Oda has essentially called it "bittersweet". Him being a flicker for 2 years and turning into a legend is precisely what I have come to expect from the series. THAT is a concept of death I hope Oda commits to as well (if he continues to talk about Luffy shortening his lifespan, Luffy not caring if he dies, etc), though it's something i can't actually, truly hope for without feeling like I'll be disappointed.

It's why I'll never say "Luffy will die in the EoS", but you'll see me say "Luffy MAY die in the EoS". Imo, ZKK MAY happen, and I hope it does because it works on paper well, I just have major skepticisms about his intentions and play devils advocate a lot.

That obviously seems to make me come off as anti-zoro or ZKK but it's normally not my intention lol
Nah luffys dying eos. :)
 
#51
Nah luffys dying eos. :)
As Kaido has said, "Death completes a man". Let's see how it goes! In both cases
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You made some great points.

Excellent post.
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You made some great points.

Excellent post.
I should have made it clear though (because I didnt) that this was not a direct attack on ZKK specifically. Enma does have potentially connotations to slaying Kaido due to its name and what it potentially means with Ame no Habakiri (which seems to be meant for slaying Orochi)

What I am skeptical on (made in the post) was tying all of those heavy themes specifically to Zoro, when a lot of what ties Oden's will to defeating Kaido actually comes from Luffy and his relationship with Kin and Momo. If Zoro ends up ending Kaido after Luffy has fundamentally won and everyone praises him for saving Wano, then its actually fair game. I was just pointing out that I don't expect Luffy's "glory" to be overtaken by Zoro's, since it's not Oda's style to. But if Zoro gets his Ryuuma moment after everything and it neatly ties up the themes this arc may have built around the idea of death then I'm totally here for it.

I just think there is a difference between believing in ZKK as an ending to Kaido and ZKK having lasting, fundamental importance over Luffy's own themes of victory (as with every arc). I am a skeptic for either happening (for now) but would love to be wrong if the former happens
 
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#52
There's no substantial reason to suggest Luffy is likely dying at EoS. There could be an escape even if he contracts an illness, and it could be constituted by Chopper curing the illness.

Or even Law's Ope Ope. (Less likely)
 
#53
kaido is a boss. he doesn't have business with an underling like zoro. that's why oda doesn't have to settle things about them. leave zoro dying after confrontation with kaido is perfect settlement for both of them. it's like hoping rayleigh or oden will match whitebeard and deliver perfect confrontation while roger exist, or hoping marco/oden deliver great confrontation against roger while whitebeard there right beside them. it's not oda fault but it's fans fault that they force to elaborate theory such zoro vs kaido or zoro could give significant impact to kaido.

oden is different case since he was a leader.
kaido business is always with luffy. as Ussual. boss against boss.
 
#58
I was honestly surprised by Kaido saying nothing about Oden when Zoro gave him the scar.

Regardless of what you think about Zoro and Oden powerlevels, the fact that Kaido who has had Oden PTSD for half the arc said nothing about him when the first person in history replicates his scar feat was... truly unexpected.

So yeah, Zoro is facing Kaido again at some point. Otherwise I think Oda would have done some direct (i.e., from Kaido's mouth) parallel with the scar.
 
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