Powers & Abilities Zoro Could Use Ryuo Before Enma

(Poll questions are in the OP)

  • Q1: Yes

  • Q1: No

  • Q2: Yes

  • Q2: No

  • Q3: Yes

  • Q3: No

  • Q4: Yes

  • Q4: No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐒𝐫𝐒𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐑𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
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#21
Artistic choices from hundreds of chapters before the concept of ryuo was formalized shouldn't be taken as proof
The depiction of Ryuo when Zoro first got Enma:


Overflowing hardening just a few chapters before when Zoro used Rengoku Oni Giri on Killer:


It is not plausible that the artistic similarity is unintentional. This wasn't 100s of chapters, hell, this wasn't even dozens of chapters. Zoro received Enma near immediately after defeating Killer.

Zoro is having difficulty cladding ryuo without Enma and that doesn't make sense if he has had ryuo since the skip.
No he isn't. He could clad his swords in overflowing hardening perfectly before Enma. Since he got Enma, only Enma has been clad in overflowing hardening. Zoro is still adapting to Enma which is why he's not properly overflowing his hardening from all three of his blades yet.

neither should air haki slashes which haven't been hyped as ryuo based in any way.
They haven't been hyped at all. We've seen Kawamatsu hurt Kaido with flying slashes via releasing ryuo from his blade. We've never been told that it's possible to imbue the air with haki, and the only other examples we've seen of hakified flying slashes was ryuo.
 

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐒𝐫𝐒𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐑𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
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#23
Yes he is definitely using barrier haki at least otherwise it's impossible to overcome Kaido's scales without tricks and damage him.
But with the focus and effort he required for internal destruction of Yamato's chains I think it would be made more clear if he was using internal destruction.
Only Red Roc was internal destruction COA (hence Kaido's skull getting rattled):


The other attacks were ordinary Barrier COA. It's why a G3 attack could do more damage than several G4 attacks.
 
#31
Haki is Ryuo, Ryuo is Haki. Luffy has had Ryuo since timeskip, so has Sanji, Zoro, and Law... because Ryuo is merely the name of Haki in Wano.

As far as distinctions, what's actually consistent is that Zoro's spiritual abilities are unique to Zoro. He is the only character whose killing intent is noted as if palpable, by several characters of various levels of awareness. He channels demonic auras with no real explanation, in ways we don't see anywhere else. His Enma attacks aren't anything like we've seen from Oden or the Scabbards.

As far as locking him down to what we've learned from Hyo:
1. That "kekkai" thing is best to be ignored. It's shoehorned into this context but maybe you can wait for Oda to bring it around.

2. The flying slash he uses on Monet is different than what we see with the palm strikes. Essentially you can say that he can project Haki but Oda hasn't linked them.
 

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐒𝐫𝐒𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐑𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
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#32
What's your explanation for him not using it?
It's very taxing, requires focus and preparation (see when he was using it against Yamato). Even using only Barrier Ryuo, he barely lasted 10 minutes for the first round. Had he been using internal destruction throughout, he would have tired himself much quicker.

Basically, I don't think he's fully mastered the technique yet.
 

Garp the Fist

Bwahahahaha
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#33
Zoro first used Ryou on Alabasta when he cut Mr 1.

Yes, that’s a massive retcon from Oda, but it is what it is.

This is a clear example of Zoro (and Kin) using Ryou



Because they are cutting steel, which can only be done using Ryou.

Ryou also doesn’t need Hardening. The Scabbards were cutting Kaido without it, and they were using Ryou.

Was Zoro using Ryou in the examples you used? Honestly, don’t have a clue. What’s the relation between β€œcutting only what you want to cut” and the general use of CoA being to attack DF users? Is that the same thing? Is every CoA user also using Ryou? I’d suggest not since it seems that Ryou is a specific use of CoA, but there’s certainly a degree of overlap. Which isn’t helped by Wano natives being ignorant in general about what Haki and DF’s are.

Take the Birdcage. Zoro wasn’t trying to cut it, but push it, so on the one hand you’d argue that no, he wasn’t using Ryou. Ryou is about cutting what you want to cut, this Mighty Blade idea. Zoro then, you could argue, was just using regular old Hardening to protect his sword from the razor sharp Birdcage.

However

You can then turn that around. What are Ryou users able to do- control what they cut. They can fail to cut a sheet of paper, yet cut through steel. Is that actually what Zoro was doing then? Was he using Ryou so he wasn’t cutting the birdcage, allowing him to push it? Is that why he took the two samurai’s with him, who can also use Ryou?

And from another perspective, had Oda even came up with the BoaT = CoA = Ryou on Dressrosa? I certainly don’t believe for a second it was planned on Alabasta. Did he literally just come up with it on the spot, a third of the way into Wano, as a part of his β€œhow can I get Luffy to beat Kaido” drive? Cause I’m almost certain that FS- another example of that- was invented on the spot half way through WCI.

I don’t think anyone can answer with any degree of certainty when Zoro was using Ryou in the past, unless it was specifically a case where he was cutting steel. And now, when he’s cutting Kaido’s scales.

And we still don’t even know if the Enma aura visual effect is Ryou or soemthing else entirely, since the Scabbards and Oden- who were using Ryou- didn’t have anything like it.
 

Warchief Sanji D Goat

Mommy Fubuki!
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#35
There are many different levels of Ryou.
We can see that Luffy is trying to use Armament Haki and what he is trying to learn is not "normal Armament Haki", but that is greater to the normal Armament Haki.

We can see it here that Luffy refers to what Rayleigh used as an advanced version of the normal Haki he has been using this entire time. Basically an invisible armor.

Here's the different translation of the same chapter.

Right here we can see Luffy theorizing that if he learns this application of Haki/Ryou this advanced version of Haki/Ryou, he can bypass Kaido's tough scales.

Then Hyou comes and starts asking about Haki, he states that here in Wano we call what you call Haki, Ryou. He points out that swordsmen use Haki/Ryou to cut what they want to cut and not cut what they do not want to cut, then he states he was known as mighty swordsman back in the day and might know that technique Luffy is referring to.

Here's the better visual of Hyo's words in chapter 939.

We can see here Hyou performs the application of Ryou that Luffy was referring to. Mind you that this is an application of Ryou, a more advanced type of Ryou, and not just Ryou which is Haki (Armament Haki specifically) in Wano.

We can see here, that Hyou refers to Ryou as Haki in this panel. Similar to how Skypieans calling Observation Haki as Mantra in Skypiea. And start teaching Luffy this specific application of Ryou.

In this panel we can see Luffy performing something different than that of what Hyou was teaching him, and that this is not what Rayleigh used on the elephant.

Hyou is surprised that Luffy used what he used, and is filled with tremendous amounts of confidence in Luffy, again that just a minute ago he was ready to die and was out of hope. Now as soon as Luffy used this power, he is confident in that Luffy, (Luffy told him about how Big Mom is equivalent to Kaido and that she is an emperor in chapter 946) with his new power, can stop Big Mom. But unluckily for Luffy, he could not remember how he pulled off that move as of now.

Here Hyou refers to what he has been teaching Luffy as an application of Ryou that is superior to that of normal Armament Haki. But he states in his words that the power that Luffy used is a much more advanced/more powerful than the thing he has been teaching Luffy.

Hyou then explains the different forms of Advanced versions of Armament Haki, he states that what he can teach of Haki, or the application of Haki that he has been teaching Luffy is that which you cover your black armament in a Haki field, he stated that it can be used as both defense and offense and is very effective, it hits the enemy with emitting the Haki from the body outwards. But he states that when you go a level above that, instead of just pushing the Haki out and hitting the person, you can infuse into the enemy and destroy them from within. He states that this is much more powerful than the application that he was teaching Luffy all along.

As you can see here, he tells Luffy that he broke the collars from within by Luffy's haki, he tells Luffy that if he can use that level of Haki, then he basically already knows how to use the application he was teaching him all along since to infuse Haki inside out of an opponent, you need to first know how to infuse yourself with outward Haki. But that Luffy already did it unconsciously.

After Luffy's training we can see Luffy showing off that he has now the ability to destroy things without touching, and emitting Haki outwards, the application of Haki/Ryou Hyou was teaching him.

And in this chapter we can see Luffy destroying the cuffs of Yamato from within, and emitting his Haki inside out. Basically showing us that Luffy is now capable of doing this more advanced version of Armament Haki.

So basically in conclusion there are 3 known levels of Armament Haki/Ryou

Level 1 - Normal Armament Haki/Ryou that Luffy used most of post time skip

This is basically the lowest level of Armament Haki, it used by essentially anyone who knows Armament Haki. It increases your defense and offense more. Swordsmen use this Haki to cut what they need to and not cut what they do not want to, Zoro basically showed us a glimpse of Armament Haki usage pre-TS (Breath Of All Things), but sadly he states he couldn't do it again until time-skip. We see that he could not cut Enel or Aokiji, but if he was able to use Armament Haki again he could at least hit them. So we could say that Zoro did not use any form of Haki pre-timeskip.

Level 2 - Emission of Haki/Ryou also can be referred to as Advanced Ryou/Flowing Haki

This is the application of Ryou that Hyou was trying to teach Luffy, and also what Luffy referred to as Advanced Armament Haki and what Rayleigh first used. This allows the user to emit Haki with no medium, so basically you can hit someone without using your fist. This is stated by Hyou that it increases you defense and offense tremendously. This form of Haki allows you to bypass tough defense that normal Armament Haki can't, like Big Mom's skin or Kaido's tough scales. But as as seen in chapter 993, you need the strength to back this skill or else your cuts/punches will be took weak even if it bypasses the tough defense.

Level 3 - Emitting Haki/Ryou inside an opponent/object, and destroy them inside out. The highest level of Armament Haki/Ryou, (more advanced version of Ryou/Haki) or some of you might called it "Internal Destruction Haki"

So this Haki is the application of Ryou that Luffy used to break the collars and Hyo's and also Yamato's cuffs. Rayleigh also used this pre-TS to remove Camie's collar. This is taking the emitted Haki from stage two and emitting it inside an opponent/object and destroying them inside out. It is stated to be much more powerful than stage by Hyou, and gave someone as old as Hyo enough confidence in Luffy stopping a Yonko equivalent to Kaido that he himself knows the strength of. (In order to know this level of Haki, you need to learn level 2 Armament Haki first).

For Zoro's cases








All of these above are demonstration of Haki. Zoro talking about how hard a black blade is. Zoro sensing falling objects are a glimpse of what Haki is but he couldn't grasp it until post-timeskip. Zoro didn't cut Monet because he wasn't using Haki. Zoro cuts through Pica's FBH because Zoro's haki is superior to his. Zoro tamed Enma because of his better haki control, etc. Zoro definitely have normal Armament Haki/Ryou before he got Enma. Enma basically improves Zoro's haki even more.
 

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐒𝐫𝐒𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐑𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
β€Ž
#36
There are many different levels of Ryou.
We can see that Luffy is trying to use Armament Haki and what he is trying to learn is not "normal Armament Haki", but that is greater to the normal Armament Haki.

We can see it here that Luffy refers to what Rayleigh used as an advanced version of the normal Haki he has been using this entire time. Basically an invisible armor.

Here's the different translation of the same chapter.

Right here we can see Luffy theorizing that if he learns this application of Haki/Ryou this advanced version of Haki/Ryou, he can bypass Kaido's tough scales.

Then Hyou comes and starts asking about Haki, he states that here in Wano we call what you call Haki, Ryou. He points out that swordsmen use Haki/Ryou to cut what they want to cut and not cut what they do not want to cut, then he states he was known as mighty swordsman back in the day and might know that technique Luffy is referring to.

Here's the better visual of Hyo's words in chapter 939.

We can see here Hyou performs the application of Ryou that Luffy was referring to. Mind you that this is an application of Ryou, a more advanced type of Ryou, and not just Ryou which is Haki (Armament Haki specifically) in Wano.

We can see here, that Hyou refers to Ryou as Haki in this panel. Similar to how Skypieans calling Observation Haki as Mantra in Skypiea. And start teaching Luffy this specific application of Ryou.

In this panel we can see Luffy performing something different than that of what Hyou was teaching him, and that this is not what Rayleigh used on the elephant.

Hyou is surprised that Luffy used what he used, and is filled with tremendous amounts of confidence in Luffy, again that just a minute ago he was ready to die and was out of hope. Now as soon as Luffy used this power, he is confident in that Luffy, (Luffy told him about how Big Mom is equivalent to Kaido and that she is an emperor in chapter 946) with his new power, can stop Big Mom. But unluckily for Luffy, he could not remember how he pulled off that move as of now.

Here Hyou refers to what he has been teaching Luffy as an application of Ryou that is superior to that of normal Armament Haki. But he states in his words that the power that Luffy used is a much more advanced/more powerful than the thing he has been teaching Luffy.

Hyou then explains the different forms of Advanced versions of Armament Haki, he states that what he can teach of Haki, or the application of Haki that he has been teaching Luffy is that which you cover your black armament in a Haki field, he stated that it can be used as both defense and offense and is very effective, it hits the enemy with emitting the Haki from the body outwards. But he states that when you go a level above that, instead of just pushing the Haki out and hitting the person, you can infuse into the enemy and destroy them from within. He states that this is much more powerful than the application that he was teaching Luffy all along.

As you can see here, he tells Luffy that he broke the collars from within by Luffy's haki, he tells Luffy that if he can use that level of Haki, then he basically already knows how to use the application he was teaching him all along since to infuse Haki inside out of an opponent, you need to first know how to infuse yourself with outward Haki. But that Luffy already did it unconsciously.

After Luffy's training we can see Luffy showing off that he has now the ability to destroy things without touching, and emitting Haki outwards, the application of Haki/Ryou Hyou was teaching him.

And in this chapter we can see Luffy destroying the cuffs of Yamato from within, and emitting his Haki inside out. Basically showing us that Luffy is now capable of doing this more advanced version of Armament Haki.

So basically in conclusion there are 3 known levels of Armament Haki/Ryou

Level 1 - Normal Armament Haki/Ryou that Luffy used most of post time skip

This is basically the lowest level of Armament Haki, it used by essentially anyone who knows Armament Haki. It increases your defense and offense more. Swordsmen use this Haki to cut what they need to and not cut what they do not want to, Zoro basically showed us a glimpse of Armament Haki usage pre-TS (Breath Of All Things), but sadly he states he couldn't do it again until time-skip. We see that he could not cut Enel or Aokiji, but if he was able to use Armament Haki again he could at least hit them. So we could say that Zoro did not use any form of Haki pre-timeskip.

Level 2 - Emission of Haki/Ryou also can be referred to as Advanced Ryou/Flowing Haki

This is the application of Ryou that Hyou was trying to teach Luffy, and also what Luffy referred to as Advanced Armament Haki and what Rayleigh first used. This allows the user to emit Haki with no medium, so basically you can hit someone without using your fist. This is stated by Hyou that it increases you defense and offense tremendously. This form of Haki allows you to bypass tough defense that normal Armament Haki can't, like Big Mom's skin or Kaido's tough scales. But as as seen in chapter 993, you need the strength to back this skill or else your cuts/punches will be took weak even if it bypasses the tough defense.

Level 3 - Emitting Haki/Ryou inside an opponent/object, and destroy them inside out. The highest level of Armament Haki/Ryou, (more advanced version of Ryou/Haki) or some of you might called it "Internal Destruction Haki"

So this Haki is the application of Ryou that Luffy used to break the collars and Hyo's and also Yamato's cuffs. Rayleigh also used this pre-TS to remove Camie's collar. This is taking the emitted Haki from stage two and emitting it inside an opponent/object and destroying them inside out. It is stated to be much more powerful than stage by Hyou, and gave someone as old as Hyo enough confidence in Luffy stopping a Yonko equivalent to Kaido that he himself knows the strength of. (In order to know this level of Haki, you need to learn level 2 Armament Haki first).

For Zoro's cases








All of these above are demonstration of Haki. Zoro talking about how hard a black blade is. Zoro sensing falling objects are a glimpse of what Haki is but he couldn't grasp it until post-timeskip. Zoro didn't cut Monet because he wasn't using Haki. Zoro cuts through Pica's FBH because Zoro's haki is superior to his. Zoro tamed Enma because of his better haki control, etc. Zoro definitely have normal Armament Haki/Ryou before he got Enma. Enma basically improves Zoro's haki even more.
Make this a post of its own as an explanation of ryuo.
 
#38
The depiction of Ryuo when Zoro first got Enma:


Overflowing hardening just a few chapters before when Zoro used Rengoku Oni Giri on Killer:


It is not plausible that the artistic similarity is unintentional. This wasn't 100s of chapters, hell, this wasn't even dozens of chapters. Zoro received Enma near immediately after defeating Killer.


No he isn't. He could clad his swords in overflowing hardening perfectly before Enma. Since he got Enma, only Enma has been clad in overflowing hardening. Zoro is still adapting to Enma which is why he's not properly overflowing his hardening from all three of his blades yet.


They haven't been hyped at all. We've seen Kawamatsu hurt Kaido with flying slashes via releasing ryuo from his blade. We've never been told that it's possible to imbue the air with haki, and the only other examples we've seen of hakified flying slashes was ryuo.
Small trails of haki do not mean ryuo is being used, ryuo wasn't shown like that for all the scabbards. Some times Oda will have a swordsman harden their hands, sometimes not, sometimes the sword itself will be black sometimes not. Drawing anything conclusive from imagery is dubious, especially in times before CoA and ryuo flow were differentiated. Even in your examples you are cherry picking, Zoro didn't have haki streaks coming from when he slashed Monet.

So when he and Killer were fighting he needed ryuo to beat a non ryuo user? Doesn't sit right with me.
Zoro's Onigiri failed to cut Kaido so didn't have ryuo.

Rationalizing him struggling with Enma fucking up his other swords makes Zoro look like a retard who can't control his sword enough to not get in the way of his other swords and would be better using a random cutlass than the distraction of Enma. All signs point to Enma helping him not harming his overall performance.

Only Red Roc was internal destruction COA (hence Kaido's skull getting rattled):


The other attacks were ordinary Barrier COA. It's why a G3 attack could do more damage than several G4 attacks.
We'll have to wait and see, G3 can rattle anyone's skull if they think incorrectly they can tank it in a human body without proper defense. I think we will see something more flashy in the future with regards to internal destruction, even Rayleigh's barrier demonstration was more flashy than what we have seen so far.
 

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐒𝐫𝐒𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐑𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
β€Ž
#39
ryuo wasn't shown like that for all the scabbards.
  • The Scabbards only used hardening for their final attack
  • Zoro's haki is much stronger than them

Roger and Whitebeard had the overflowing hardening:


Even in your examples you are cherry picking, Zoro didn't have haki streaks coming from when he slashed Monet.
We didn't see Zoro's sword when he slashed Monet, we just saw the flying slash cut her
Ryuo can be used without hardening


Rationalizing him struggling with Enma fucking up his other swords makes Zoro look like a retard who can't control his sword enough to not get in the way of his other swords and would be better using a random cutlass than the distraction of Enma. All signs point to Enma helping him not harming his overall performance.
  • Zoro explicitly needed to train to be able to even use Enma at all.
    • His first time using Enma he cut a cliff while trying to cut a bamboo.
  • Enma was a nerf when Zoro picked it up.
  • Successfully acclimatising to it would make him stronger:
    • Zoro just hasn't fully adapted to it.
      • His first named technique with Enma, he didn't use any hardening at all on any of his swords
      • His second named technique was an Ittoryu technique with overflowing hardening
      • His third named technique was a Santoryu technique with all swords hardened, but overflowing hardening present on only Enma

The idea that Enma just flat made Zoro stronger isn't at all based in the manga.
 
#40
Zoro is not using Internal Destruction bullshit.

Zoro wants to be able to cut everything.

Not to damage Kaido from the inside cause he can't succeed at cutting his scales..

Internal Destruction is a cope out, it makes you ignore Kaido's scales and lets you damage him even if you can't get past them in the first place

Zoro's dream is to be the best swordsman, he has to be able to cut EVERYTHING, internal destruction is NOT something fits for his character personality and fighting style.
 
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