General & Others Oda Doesn't Have a Power Scaling
- Thread starter Uncle Van
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its the common gripes and I do not agree with any of them.
since its such a long post I will only address a few of the points directly.
who says that pre skip Luffy can not take out a Pacifista with 1 hit too? the SHs came fresh out of TB where they all got mangled really hard. Zoro especially. neither of them was at full power there. Kidd and Law had a way easier time with the Pacifista.
escalation of power? where? we saw since Alabasta what top tier attacks can do. take Aces fire fist punch through several ships. his massive fire tornado vs Smoker. he saw Mihawk destroy Mountain sized icebergs with 1 hit. Crocodile could destroy large areas on a whim and summon sand storms that ravaged an entire country. Chew from Arlongs crew could spit water out with so much force that it made the woods explode. WB can summon quakes that are felt over half the globe. Luffy pre skip is able to lift 250k tons gold balls and whip them arround.
PL of Scabbards is pretty clear too if you ask me. Kinemons torso was able to fight Brook. thats an insane strength and haki feat.
Kin falling victim to Laws uber hax is no reason to underestimate him. it could happen to almost anyone who is not aware of Laws fruit.
Dukes took turns on Jack. the idiots never faced him together. if they did back then Jack would be a goner.
Ashura was always stronger than the base Dukes. him overpowering Jack only showed that the top Scabbards or Sulong Dukes are able to fight high tiers or even high high tiers.
its no surprise that swordsmen on that level can harm Kaido. note that not all of the Scabbards did. only the really strong ones.
is it such a surprise then that Kin can take a hit from Kaido? it was already established that Kin was strong.
you brought up Luffy and Boundman.
yeah, Kaido knocked him straight on the head with his Bagua. that took Luffy out.
maybe I misremember, but neither Law nor Zoro got whacked like that.
it may have someone to do with the wrong perception that Luffy is super resillient while Law is super fragile. this has not been the case in the past. same goes for Zoro.
same old same old.
Odas ways of showcasing how powerful characters are is brilliant.
if everything was clear cut and there was no ambiguity then it would be stale.
Dragon Ball was also pretty stupid once Power Levels got introduced.
"my integer value is higher than yours, you lose"
"no, my integer value just became a bit higher again, you lose"
"hah, you wish. my integer value just trippeled because I transformed or something"
"wait what? okay then. I scream very loudly and tap into some energy. my integer value is now 10x yours. its over"
"fak"
new guys comes in next arc
"lol, 10x that other blokes integer value? check me out, I got 100x. suck it, Goku"
"send me to heaven so I can train to 1000x integer value"
since its such a long post I will only address a few of the points directly.
who says that pre skip Luffy can not take out a Pacifista with 1 hit too? the SHs came fresh out of TB where they all got mangled really hard. Zoro especially. neither of them was at full power there. Kidd and Law had a way easier time with the Pacifista.
escalation of power? where? we saw since Alabasta what top tier attacks can do. take Aces fire fist punch through several ships. his massive fire tornado vs Smoker. he saw Mihawk destroy Mountain sized icebergs with 1 hit. Crocodile could destroy large areas on a whim and summon sand storms that ravaged an entire country. Chew from Arlongs crew could spit water out with so much force that it made the woods explode. WB can summon quakes that are felt over half the globe. Luffy pre skip is able to lift 250k tons gold balls and whip them arround.
PL of Scabbards is pretty clear too if you ask me. Kinemons torso was able to fight Brook. thats an insane strength and haki feat.
Kin falling victim to Laws uber hax is no reason to underestimate him. it could happen to almost anyone who is not aware of Laws fruit.
Dukes took turns on Jack. the idiots never faced him together. if they did back then Jack would be a goner.
Ashura was always stronger than the base Dukes. him overpowering Jack only showed that the top Scabbards or Sulong Dukes are able to fight high tiers or even high high tiers.
its no surprise that swordsmen on that level can harm Kaido. note that not all of the Scabbards did. only the really strong ones.
is it such a surprise then that Kin can take a hit from Kaido? it was already established that Kin was strong.
you brought up Luffy and Boundman.
yeah, Kaido knocked him straight on the head with his Bagua. that took Luffy out.
maybe I misremember, but neither Law nor Zoro got whacked like that.
it may have someone to do with the wrong perception that Luffy is super resillient while Law is super fragile. this has not been the case in the past. same goes for Zoro.
same old same old.
Odas ways of showcasing how powerful characters are is brilliant.
if everything was clear cut and there was no ambiguity then it would be stale.
Dragon Ball was also pretty stupid once Power Levels got introduced.
"my integer value is higher than yours, you lose"
"no, my integer value just became a bit higher again, you lose"
"hah, you wish. my integer value just trippeled because I transformed or something"
"wait what? okay then. I scream very loudly and tap into some energy. my integer value is now 10x yours. its over"
"fak"
new guys comes in next arc
"lol, 10x that other blokes integer value? check me out, I got 100x. suck it, Goku"
"send me to heaven so I can train to 1000x integer value"
There’s power scaling in a vague sense, Oda just doesn’t take it anywhere near as seriously as the people here do. And he certainly doesn’t care about comparing fights he drew five/six years ago to stuff that happens now to try to create a perfect, cohesive power scale.
Man is from the Dragon Ball school, and people here would honestly despise reading Dragon Ball weekly. PiS, cheap powerups and plotshields galore. Cause neither Toriyama or Oda really care about any of that, they just wanted to write a fun series for teenagers to read once a week for about five minutes.
Man is from the Dragon Ball school, and people here would honestly despise reading Dragon Ball weekly. PiS, cheap powerups and plotshields galore. Cause neither Toriyama or Oda really care about any of that, they just wanted to write a fun series for teenagers to read once a week for about five minutes.
He cares about "Potrayal", Not Feats
He doesn't hyper analyse the feats like the fanbase thinks he does. But he does care about the "Potrayal" of Characters and where they are supposed to stand.
Which is why it's more important to look at characters from their Potrayal instead of Feats because Feats might as well be worthless in One Piece
He doesn't hyper analyse the feats like the fanbase thinks he does. But he does care about the "Potrayal" of Characters and where they are supposed to stand.
Which is why it's more important to look at characters from their Potrayal instead of Feats because Feats might as well be worthless in One Piece
I concur with the general premise.
Oda vastly tends to mold power levels based off the most convenient plots to him. Examples can be spot in arcs like Marineford or Wano prominently and they are both war? Is that a coincidence? Most definitely not I would suggest. It makes totally sense that a war would not look as exhilarating if common scales were respected. Well to me it's different but the harsh truth is not everyone cares about self consistency even remotely as much as we do.
Oda vastly tends to mold power levels based off the most convenient plots to him. Examples can be spot in arcs like Marineford or Wano prominently and they are both war? Is that a coincidence? Most definitely not I would suggest. It makes totally sense that a war would not look as exhilarating if common scales were respected. Well to me it's different but the harsh truth is not everyone cares about self consistency even remotely as much as we do.
Since the Katakuri’s fight have been saying this : the character are as strong as the plot/character dynamics/symbolic need them to be.
-Luffy based on feats and portrayals could/should not beat Katakuri, he was too weak. And I think this is why Oda made the fight this long. But Luffy vs Katakuri in term of « symbolic » was the usual mirror match where the protagonist fight someone who is like him (either a character that has the same path but find a different answer or a straight up devil double) but stronger and has to overcome him to prove that he is right/on the right path.
This is why Luffy wins because he is the protagonist and he has to win. The « symbolic » is stronger than the powerscalling.
-Which is why when we arrived to Wano and people start to say that Zoro and Sanji could/should not fight King/Queen feats and portrayal, I was one of the few saying that this has nothing to to with strength it has to do with the « character dynamics ». Luffy fight the number 1, Zoro the number 2 and Sanji the number 3.
-This is for the same « character dynamics » that I doubt that Sanji will ever be less than an high diff fight for Luffy. That can only change if the plot need it to be, because..
The only thing that can beat « character dynamics » is « symbolic » or « plot »:
-When chapter 955 dropped I (and others) tried to explain why based on plot « Enma » will meet Kaido again but people refuse to listen to it because « strength » (Zoro was to weak I.e the Kamazo’s fight) and « character dynamics » (Luffy fights the boss without Zoro’s intervention).
They were not wrong about the « character dynamics » argument but « symbolic » is more important. You don’t hype the blade to be that important against Kaido if it never meet Kaido again. It is the same « symbolic » that lead me to think that Enma will turn black in Wano and that Zoro and Luffy will both stronger than Oden at the end of the arc.
The only thing that can beat « symbolic » is « plot »:
-Which why I knew that FS will not be as overpowered as some people thought. Luffy as to stay vulnerable he has to stay the underdog. So once the « symbolic » of the Mirror’s fight was done, « plot » retained his reigning dominance.
-And I agree, Mihawk is the prime example of powercreep. Why? Because Mihawk’s title cannot be false, hollow or confusing and because he was introduce early. Therefore he will grow stronger off screen because he has too.
Yes from a « symbolic » standpoint Shanks should be stronger than Mihawk because Shanks is Luffy’s model but in term of plot it can’t. Why? Because of Zoro’s dream. Zoro’s dream is tie to the plot. Zoro will end up being the strongest swordsman that ever exist (we are in a shonen remember and that is what 13 years old boys are expecting) and the only way for us, readers, to be certain of that is that Zoro fights the strongest swordsman ever. So Mihawk will end up being stronger that every swordsman that ever exist before him (including Shanks, Ryuma or Roger).
People will fight this idea like they fight the idea that Luffy gonna be the chosen one but it still happened because plot is more important than anything else in One Piece. Luffy will be the joy boy and Zoro will be the strongest swordsman ever.
So plot is the reason of powercreep, plot is the reason of powerscalling.
Yeah it is cool to fight each other in the battlefome section. The banter, which can turn out toxic, is funny but never use feats and portrayal to predict the plot. Never.
One Piece is a super plot driven story, once you understand that you will not be surprised or disappointed concerning the matchup or the power structure.
-Luffy based on feats and portrayals could/should not beat Katakuri, he was too weak. And I think this is why Oda made the fight this long. But Luffy vs Katakuri in term of « symbolic » was the usual mirror match where the protagonist fight someone who is like him (either a character that has the same path but find a different answer or a straight up devil double) but stronger and has to overcome him to prove that he is right/on the right path.
This is why Luffy wins because he is the protagonist and he has to win. The « symbolic » is stronger than the powerscalling.
-Which is why when we arrived to Wano and people start to say that Zoro and Sanji could/should not fight King/Queen feats and portrayal, I was one of the few saying that this has nothing to to with strength it has to do with the « character dynamics ». Luffy fight the number 1, Zoro the number 2 and Sanji the number 3.
-This is for the same « character dynamics » that I doubt that Sanji will ever be less than an high diff fight for Luffy. That can only change if the plot need it to be, because..
The only thing that can beat « character dynamics » is « symbolic » or « plot »:
-When chapter 955 dropped I (and others) tried to explain why based on plot « Enma » will meet Kaido again but people refuse to listen to it because « strength » (Zoro was to weak I.e the Kamazo’s fight) and « character dynamics » (Luffy fights the boss without Zoro’s intervention).
They were not wrong about the « character dynamics » argument but « symbolic » is more important. You don’t hype the blade to be that important against Kaido if it never meet Kaido again. It is the same « symbolic » that lead me to think that Enma will turn black in Wano and that Zoro and Luffy will both stronger than Oden at the end of the arc.
The only thing that can beat « symbolic » is « plot »:
-Which why I knew that FS will not be as overpowered as some people thought. Luffy as to stay vulnerable he has to stay the underdog. So once the « symbolic » of the Mirror’s fight was done, « plot » retained his reigning dominance.
-And I agree, Mihawk is the prime example of powercreep. Why? Because Mihawk’s title cannot be false, hollow or confusing and because he was introduce early. Therefore he will grow stronger off screen because he has too.
Yes from a « symbolic » standpoint Shanks should be stronger than Mihawk because Shanks is Luffy’s model but in term of plot it can’t. Why? Because of Zoro’s dream. Zoro’s dream is tie to the plot. Zoro will end up being the strongest swordsman that ever exist (we are in a shonen remember and that is what 13 years old boys are expecting) and the only way for us, readers, to be certain of that is that Zoro fights the strongest swordsman ever. So Mihawk will end up being stronger that every swordsman that ever exist before him (including Shanks, Ryuma or Roger).
People will fight this idea like they fight the idea that Luffy gonna be the chosen one but it still happened because plot is more important than anything else in One Piece. Luffy will be the joy boy and Zoro will be the strongest swordsman ever.
So plot is the reason of powercreep, plot is the reason of powerscalling.
Yeah it is cool to fight each other in the battlefome section. The banter, which can turn out toxic, is funny but never use feats and portrayal to predict the plot. Never.
One Piece is a super plot driven story, once you understand that you will not be surprised or disappointed concerning the matchup or the power structure.
Sadly that's the case in OP, no matter how much we argue power levels, waste of time at the end of the day 
Such a shame he views it this way, kind of a letdown when they try to market every next arc hyping it up and then we have chapters wasted on Rebecca equivalent characters backstories, crying and see them run around.
Such a shame he views it this way, kind of a letdown when they try to market every next arc hyping it up and then we have chapters wasted on Rebecca equivalent characters backstories, crying and see them run around.
Power levels depend on the actual plot, example are top tiers in MF, Garp got one shot my preskip g2 Luffy, Sengoku doing nothing and Mihawk just spamming no name attacks, Oda obviously made them hold back so everything goes according his plan.
Typically everyone outside the SHs have varying power levels, right now Shanks might be stronger than what Oda intended him to be couple of years back.
Typically everyone outside the SHs have varying power levels, right now Shanks might be stronger than what Oda intended him to be couple of years back.
There is powerscaling, some people are just digging too far deep into it and get upset when the story doesn't pan out they way they want it to.
Examples
Examples
- Pixel scaling, fans literally trying to scale pixels then get upset with Oda for "inconsistency" with sizes.
- Fans not being able to tell the difference between serious / gag moments to properly powerscale
- Failure to acknowledge context ( Chopper and co tackling Big Mom on the Sunny, people complained as if that version of Big Mom was sane or anywhere close to her full capabilities)
There is a Difference between how Strong Oda wants a Character to be & how well he can Portray that Power on Paper
So don't rely on what you see (Feats & Battle Scenarios) to determine someone's Power Level
It's all about their Portrayal, how Oda cares about Hyping them & how they are seen inside OP World
Oda cannot come up with a Battle Scenario that will convince all Readers of what he wants to show & he cannot keep Consistency since he can't process +1000 Chapters of Panels & Scenes at same time, there will always Feats that don't make sense
And also you need to understand that Fans care about certain Characters & don't like Others but Oda is the Writer, he cares about literally every Character he draws & he takes Future Arcs into consideration when writing the Story
So for example he can't just outright say someone is Stronger than another even if he believes so, because he wants both those Character's Fans to be Hyped & Excited what their Favorite Character has in Store & it also gives his room to make Characters Stronger when needed without Contradicting a Previous Claim he made
Zoro vs Killer is the Perfect Example, because Oda wanted to Draw Zoro Defeating Killer in a Cool Scene but he didn't do it Directly, he made sure to Tweak few things to leave Room for change later on & without ruining the Hype of either of them.
So he changed Killer's Main Weapons & Removed Zoro's Santoryu & made Gyukimaru interfere!
So now, Oda have Freedom to make Zoro & Killer as Strong as he likes without making that Fight look weird or contradictory
He can make Zoro & Killer Stronger however he pleases & he can decide the Gap between them however he pleases, all of that because he didn't give you a Fair Fight between them, he just give you an Illusion of it & Fans are left speculating & debating about what could happen
Same thing for Ace & Jinbe, he made one Fight in Land & made sure the other is still a Rookie, so this way Oda can Modify their Power Levels however he likes & justify it by implying Sea Jinbe is way Stronger than Land Jinbe or that Ace became much Stronger with Experience ... etc
You people need to see Manga from Oda's Perspective & then you will understand how Power Levels work
So don't rely on what you see (Feats & Battle Scenarios) to determine someone's Power Level
It's all about their Portrayal, how Oda cares about Hyping them & how they are seen inside OP World
Oda cannot come up with a Battle Scenario that will convince all Readers of what he wants to show & he cannot keep Consistency since he can't process +1000 Chapters of Panels & Scenes at same time, there will always Feats that don't make sense
And also you need to understand that Fans care about certain Characters & don't like Others but Oda is the Writer, he cares about literally every Character he draws & he takes Future Arcs into consideration when writing the Story
So for example he can't just outright say someone is Stronger than another even if he believes so, because he wants both those Character's Fans to be Hyped & Excited what their Favorite Character has in Store & it also gives his room to make Characters Stronger when needed without Contradicting a Previous Claim he made
Zoro vs Killer is the Perfect Example, because Oda wanted to Draw Zoro Defeating Killer in a Cool Scene but he didn't do it Directly, he made sure to Tweak few things to leave Room for change later on & without ruining the Hype of either of them.
So he changed Killer's Main Weapons & Removed Zoro's Santoryu & made Gyukimaru interfere!
So now, Oda have Freedom to make Zoro & Killer as Strong as he likes without making that Fight look weird or contradictory
He can make Zoro & Killer Stronger however he pleases & he can decide the Gap between them however he pleases, all of that because he didn't give you a Fair Fight between them, he just give you an Illusion of it & Fans are left speculating & debating about what could happen
Same thing for Ace & Jinbe, he made one Fight in Land & made sure the other is still a Rookie, so this way Oda can Modify their Power Levels however he likes & justify it by implying Sea Jinbe is way Stronger than Land Jinbe or that Ace became much Stronger with Experience ... etc
You people need to see Manga from Oda's Perspective & then you will understand how Power Levels work
@Van
I was hoping this thread would be a detailed explanation of why power scaling is poor understanding, based on a system agreed upon by a mass of people that doesn't include the writer himself. Like, of course it doesn't make sense if it's some shit you made up, versus something from the series itself that presents with inconsistency. But then you called him inconsistent, lol.
New power level concept for y'all: CONTEXT
I was hoping this thread would be a detailed explanation of why power scaling is poor understanding, based on a system agreed upon by a mass of people that doesn't include the writer himself. Like, of course it doesn't make sense if it's some shit you made up, versus something from the series itself that presents with inconsistency. But then you called him inconsistent, lol.
New power level concept for y'all: CONTEXT
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You will continue on with OP bring surprised at depictions, not understanding and being frustrated. "Oda doesn't make sense with ___." But if it's inconsistency, why is it consistently happening? Is this guy senile before 50 and careless about work he's been doing full time for half his life, or might it fall to your personal interpretation? You gotta crawl out of your own ass papa
Surprised? I have accepted One Piece has a shitty power system, to the point where even the most avid fan admits Haki is extremely vague and unexplored.
You don't have to be senile before 50 to write a broken power system, marineford proved Oda doesn't give a fuck about scaling that much. In his head he probably thinks "X is stronger than Y" is enough, he doesn't delve on the how
You don't have to be senile before 50 to write a broken power system, marineford proved Oda doesn't give a fuck about scaling that much. In his head he probably thinks "X is stronger than Y" is enough, he doesn't delve on the how
I disagree with the Dragon Ball point. Toriyama is not the best storyteller, but he at least always tried to make sense out of his power ups. He also was consistent with the scaling. People needed power ups to get stronger because their former self did not stand a chance against the villains. We are right now seeing guys like Law have better durability than G4 Luffy with no in story explanation
Some of the things you said are wrong as in BM grabbed queen and slammed his face from a significant height > punching kidd......zoro and law mostly took coc lightning thing rather club directly as it is impossibe for kaido to land club to their face simultaneously but you are right there are lot of inconsistencies......
Pre skip - Post skip also have big inconsistencies too haki being one the main things as a point...........
Pre skip - Post skip also have big inconsistencies too haki being one the main things as a point...........
Luffy getting one shotted by thuder bagua can be explained.
Kaido used CoC(overcoming the will of others) in his attack. And Luffy was already broken in his mind. There was no confirmation that his crew survived boro breath. Things went bad in a short period of time so he had no time to regain his senses.
And after attacking Kaido in a desperate manner with his full power and seeing that Kaido took no damage from his attack was probably the nail on the coffin.
He was weak in his mind so getting one shotted by thunder bagua infused with CoC is not really out of ordinary.
Zoro and Laws situation was different. There mindset was set on an all out war with a clear goal : defeating Kaido.
Kaido used CoC(overcoming the will of others) in his attack. And Luffy was already broken in his mind. There was no confirmation that his crew survived boro breath. Things went bad in a short period of time so he had no time to regain his senses.
And after attacking Kaido in a desperate manner with his full power and seeing that Kaido took no damage from his attack was probably the nail on the coffin.
He was weak in his mind so getting one shotted by thunder bagua infused with CoC is not really out of ordinary.
Zoro and Laws situation was different. There mindset was set on an all out war with a clear goal : defeating Kaido.