Is Sanji's Power Up Legitimate?


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HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
Cause I can’t see any other reason for you comparing his power up to Choppers

One got a single panel that was rushed past with 0 foreshadowing or thought put into it at all

While the other got foreshadowing (poor foreshadowing but still) and is clearly one of the more important things in the chapter

Both were done poorly but I wouldn’t put them on the same level
What foreshadowing did sanji have to get all of germas powers and none of his own ?
Wasn't the end of wci where judge slates sanji and luffy says why are you listing off his best quality's showing us that sanji won't be like germa but stand on his own two feet
Completely the opposite of what's happened now where he's had and used the rs and now is turning into a full on germa to the point he is actively crying about not doing so at the end of this chapter
 

ConquistadoR

The Rogue Prince
Oda dedicated an entire flashback to the Germa technology, and potential wakening of Sanji's genes. What more did he really need to extrapolate on here to make it cohesive, and make sense?

The raid suit was tailor made to Sanji's DNA, which was attempted to be manipulated before his birth. The initial attempt was deemed a failure. However, after wearing the Raid suit, his DNA responded to it, and thus his Lineage Factor genes awakened.
A part of Germa's flashback - whose whole arc involved the price of losing one's humanity in search of power. The raidsuit triggering Sanji's DNA was obviously written in during the raid - Oda even got the number of times Sanji wore the Raidsuit wrong.
 

ConquistadoR

The Rogue Prince
I never said the writing is good I said it was written far better than Choppers extended monster point power up that was rushed past and given one small panel and 0 foreshadowing.
Yeah I never said the writing is that asspullish. I just said it felt more in line with that rather than the ones Luffy and Zoro got this arc in my original post that you quoted.
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Cause I can’t see any other reason for you comparing his power up to Choppers

One got a single panel that was rushed past with 0 foreshadowing or thought put into it at all

While the other got foreshadowing (poor foreshadowing but still) and is clearly one of the more important things in the chapter

Both were done poorly but I wouldn’t put them on the same level
Yeah it's on Oda not on Sanji.

I said it was done poorly when compared to what Zoro and Luffy recieved this arc that's all. It's pretty clear now that the only PU that gets the most focus is Luffy's.
 
Oda off-panelled Zoro’s Enma training so whats your point. Both Enma and the Exo-Skeleton were given introductions, both were hinted at, etc.
And people don't understand that even if Sanji is a part of the monster trio and one of the best 3 fighters of the crew he is still considered as different from Luffy and Zoro, not because he is much weaker than them but because Oda treat him in other ways but still give him what the other 2 get as power ups (Enma, Raid Suit, advance haki or whenever you want to call it). We saw just one panel of Zoro and Luffy train but zero of Sanji but still Sanji is a fucking wing and it would be weird if we see him train like Zoro and Luffy did.

Sanji is treated different but Oda still put him with Zoro and Luffy.

What I want to say that Sanji is treated like the other two monsters of the trio with some little differences, he got paralled with power ups and even with fights (Sanji/Page One, Zoro/Kamazou, Sanji/x drake, Zoro/Kyoshirou)
 
A part of Germa's flashback - whose whole arc involved the price of losing one's humanity in search of power. The raidsuit triggering Sanji's DNA was obviously written in during the raid - Oda even got the number of times Sanji wore the Raidsuit wrong.
Sanji has been getting his bones broken for decades. When the concept of the Exoskeleton first arose way back during WCI, I made a whole theory connecting Sanji unlocking his exoskeleton, and how it ties into how Oda has portrayed his durability throughout the Manga. I even talked about the raid suit being tailor made to his DNA. All the clues and hints have been there.
 
He offpaneled Luffy's ACoA training as well. That isn't the issue.

The point is Enma had -

1. Narrative Significance : To cut Kaido. Just like Luffy's - to hurt Kaido.
2. Wano centric Plotline: Had Zoro lose Shusui and search for it leading to the Hiyori reveal/plotline and ending with him receiving Enma. Also gave more lore about Ryuma, Shusui and Wano. Just like Luffy had to train in the prisons and ended up freeing the Samurai of their physical and mental chains over there. Also brought in Hyogoro, Kawamatsu, Big Mom, Queen and tied together several plotlines.
3. A training arc, just like how Luffy trained his ACoA.
4. Foreshadowing for future powerups: Zoro being told that he can make Enma a black blade in the future, hinting something that 100% is going to happen by the end of this arc and probably is his powerup against King. Exactly like Luffers learning how to make his haki flow, leading to him using AdvCoC by making his CoC flow.

Guess I was wrong for expecting something similar for Sanji.
Cook simply too irrelevant to have that much focus on him. :gokulaugh:
 

Doggo

Welcome to the House of Hope
I have no idea about this tbh first i believed maybe it was due to very high levels of coa mastery that was they key maybe the black color came from haki but it seems to be something more complicated as shusui despite it's color never could cut logia for example. It was heavier than the others swoords far more durable but nothing more i'm sure other Zoro fans here will have much better theories what it could be i would also like to hear your interpretations :cheers:
Here's what I think:
Black blade is, indeed, related to CoA mastery. And Zoro ALREADY has "black blades". Now, what makes me say that?
First. The training with Mihawk. When Mihawk talks to Zoro about Black Blades, he doesn't know if Zoro has CoC or not, and even then he told Zoro he could achieve black blades. It could be the case, if CoC is actually "unlockable" by anyone, by so few people actually manage to do it, that's why it's so rare, since it's tied to a person's "spirit" and not a "training". For the sake or the argument, let's assume that's not a thing, CoC is not possible for everyone and Mihawk, for all intents and purposes, assumes Zoro doesn't have CoC.

Ok. CoA. And Oda said that Zoro is the CoA guy. Makes sense that he aspires a feat that would reflect the pinnacle of both swordsmanship and CoA mastery. Cool. But in what occasion did Zoro have this flashback? After he cut Pica's golem, and, for the first time, we saw Zoro applying the "blackening" to his swords (basically, the flowing haki tech from Wano). He's looking at his new black sword with a big smile on his face and a sense of satisfaction.

But here we have a problem. His swords are not "permanently black". Besides that, we have Shuusui, an already black blade that Zoro has and uses before even mastering Ryou. So...what's the deal with it? We learned it later that Ryuuma "forged" the black Shuusui through countless battles. What I THINK is the case here, is that the "blackening", after being applied both multiple times and with better ryou appliance, permanently "tattoos" the blade, making it "harder" due to the hardening effect of Haki, but it doesn't mean that it should be able to replicate Haki feats of, for example, touching Logias by itself. In this case, it would make sense that the sword becomes "a better grade", due to the fact that the "hardening" from CoA is "added" to the sword natural toughness. Could also explain why Zoro thought Shuusui was "heavier" than his other swords when he first used it.

So, Zoro ALREADY achieved "black blades". BUT, considering that he can still "imprint" an extra layer of toughness on his swords permanently, is the difference between a temporary and a permanent black blade. It's like he can "double" the toughness of the blade this way. Once when he puts Haki into it and it turns black permanently, and a second time when it is already blackened and he puts his Haki into it again.

At least that's what the story so far led me to believe. Sure it could be about Adv. CoC, but we have characters like Roger and WB who were adv. CoC users with supreme grades, and they dont have black blades. But Mihawk, who, so far, didn't show CoC, has it since the beginning of the story. Maybe what will set Zoro apart from them is the fact that he's gonna stack these 2 elements. Both CoA mastery through black blades, and also applying Adv. CoC with it. Who knows.
What you think about this take on the matter?
 
A part of Germa's flashback - whose whole arc involved the price of losing one's humanity in search of power. The raidsuit triggering Sanji's DNA was obviously written in during the raid - Oda even got the number of times Sanji wore the Raidsuit wrong.
Great reading comprehension. How does Sanji lose his humanity because he gained a powerup?

Sora was opposing them losing their EMOTIONS, not having weird powers. Everyone in OP has fucked up powers.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
Here's what I think:
Black blade is, indeed, related to CoA mastery. And Zoro ALREADY has "black blades". Now, what makes me say that?
First. The training with Mihawk. When Mihawk talks to Zoro about Black Blades, he doesn't know if Zoro has CoC or not, and even then he told Zoro he could achieve black blades. It could be the case, if CoC is actually "unlockable" by anyone, by so few people actually manage to do it, that's why it's so rare, since it's tied to a person's "spirit" and not a "training". For the sake or the argument, let's assume that's not a thing, CoC is not possible for everyone and Mihawk, for all intents and purposes, assumes Zoro doesn't have CoC.

Ok. CoA. And Oda said that Zoro is the CoA guy. Makes sense that he aspires a feat that would reflect the pinnacle of both swordsmanship and CoA mastery. Cool. But in what occasion did Zoro have this flashback? After he cut Pica's golem, and, for the first time, we saw Zoro applying the "blackening" to his swords (basically, the flowing haki tech from Wano). He's looking at his new black sword with a big smile on his face and a sense of satisfaction.

But here we have a problem. His swords are not "permanently black". Besides that, we have Shuusui, an already black blade that Zoro has and uses before even mastering Ryou. So...what's the deal with it? We learned it later that Ryuuma "forged" the black Shuusui through countless battles. What I THINK is the case here, is that the "blackening", after being applied both multiple times and with better ryou appliance, permanently "tattoos" the blade, making it "harder" due to the hardening effect of Haki, but it doesn't mean that it should be able to replicate Haki feats of, for example, touching Logias by itself. In this case, it would make sense that the sword becomes "a better grade", due to the fact that the "hardening" from CoA is "added" to the sword natural toughness. Could also explain why Zoro thought Shuusui was "heavier" than his other swords when he first used it.

So, Zoro ALREADY achieved "black blades". BUT, considering that he can still "imprint" an extra layer of toughness on his swords permanently, is the difference between a temporary and a permanent black blade. It's like he can "double" the toughness of the blade this way. Once when he puts Haki into it and it turns black permanently, and a second time when it is already blackened and he puts his Haki into it again.

At least that's what the story so far led me to believe. Sure it could be about Adv. CoC, but we have characters like Roger and WB who were adv. CoC users with supreme grades, and they dont have black blades. But Mihawk, who, so far, didn't show CoC, has it since the beginning of the story. Maybe what will set Zoro apart from them is the fact that he's gonna stack these 2 elements. Both CoA mastery through black blades, and also applying Adv. CoC with it. Who knows.
What you think about this take on the matter?
Oden used haki on his sword from 18 - 39 and no black blades
 

ConquistadoR

The Rogue Prince
Sanji has been getting his bones broken for decades. When the concept of the Exoskeleton first arose way back during WCI, I made a whole theory connecting Sanji unlocking his exoskeleton, and how it ties into how Oda has portrayed his durability throughout the Manga. I even talked about the raid suit being tailor made to his DNA. All the clues and hints have been there.
Would just be infinitely more better to me if Oda would take some time off and even have Usopp and Franky work on the RS and increase its capabilities than some fucking Momo or Tama panels again.

Would feel much more better if Oda hinted at Sanji gaining some faster healing or something after his fight against Page One, right after he wears the Raidsuit.

Again, I didn't even like the Germa plotline in WCI. Plus its been ages since I reread the meat and potatoes of it outside of Katakuri fight for powerscaling debates.
 
Here's what I think:
Black blade is, indeed, related to CoA mastery. And Zoro ALREADY has "black blades". Now, what makes me say that?
First. The training with Mihawk. When Mihawk talks to Zoro about Black Blades, he doesn't know if Zoro has CoC or not, and even then he told Zoro he could achieve black blades. It could be the case, if CoC is actually "unlockable" by anyone, by so few people actually manage to do it, that's why it's so rare, since it's tied to a person's "spirit" and not a "training". For the sake or the argument, let's assume that's not a thing, CoC is not possible for everyone and Mihawk, for all intents and purposes, assumes Zoro doesn't have CoC.

Ok. CoA. And Oda said that Zoro is the CoA guy. Makes sense that he aspires a feat that would reflect the pinnacle of both swordsmanship and CoA mastery. Cool. But in what occasion did Zoro have this flashback? After he cut Pica's golem, and, for the first time, we saw Zoro applying the "blackening" to his swords (basically, the flowing haki tech from Wano). He's looking at his new black sword with a big smile on his face and a sense of satisfaction.

But here we have a problem. His swords are not "permanently black". Besides that, we have Shuusui, an already black blade that Zoro has and uses before even mastering Ryou. So...what's the deal with it? We learned it later that Ryuuma "forged" the black Shuusui through countless battles. What I THINK is the case here, is that the "blackening", after being applied both multiple times and with better ryou appliance, permanently "tattoos" the blade, making it "harder" due to the hardening effect of Haki, but it doesn't mean that it should be able to replicate Haki feats of, for example, touching Logias by itself. In this case, it would make sense that the sword becomes "a better grade", due to the fact that the "hardening" from CoA is "added" to the sword natural toughness. Could also explain why Zoro thought Shuusui was "heavier" than his other swords when he first used it.

So, Zoro ALREADY achieved "black blades". BUT, considering that he can still "imprint" an extra layer of toughness on his swords permanently, is the difference between a temporary and a permanent black blade. It's like he can "double" the toughness of the blade this way. Once when he puts Haki into it and it turns black permanently, and a second time when it is already blackened and he puts his Haki into it again.

At least that's what the story so far led me to believe. Sure it could be about Adv. CoC, but we have characters like Roger and WB who were adv. CoC users with supreme grades, and they dont have black blades. But Mihawk, who, so far, didn't show CoC, has it since the beginning of the story. Maybe what will set Zoro apart from them is the fact that he's gonna stack these 2 elements. Both CoA mastery through black blades, and also applying Adv. CoC with it. Who knows.
What you think about this take on the matter?
I didn't have the patience to read you long ass post but I gave you a like for the effort. :cheers:

Anyway my opinion is that Black Blades have something to do with either Souls or COC.
 
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