Character Discussion I'll say it: Did Oda ruin Sanji ?
- Thread starter Mezo
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- Tags #judge's son
Is Zoro ruined because he got a magic sword to fight Kaido and was revealed to be a descendant of Ryuma the God of Swords ? If for you the answer is no then Sanji's body changes shouldn't bother you either.
Sanji's power-up is not the problem, hell it opens far more storytelling possibilities (with Vegapunk, with the Germa if they come back, if he even want to keeps them or would seek a way to return to normal again, etc.).
It's more the fact that Oda kept using him as hype-tool post-TS while making Zoro into a one-dimensional badass (thus boring for me) character and because of this unbalance (plus those damned pervert jokes which are far worse but I guess work for the Japanese public, which is the only one which matters to Oda, mind) which puts him in a bad light.
Sanji's power-up is not the problem, hell it opens far more storytelling possibilities (with Vegapunk, with the Germa if they come back, if he even want to keeps them or would seek a way to return to normal again, etc.).
It's more the fact that Oda kept using him as hype-tool post-TS while making Zoro into a one-dimensional badass (thus boring for me) character and because of this unbalance (plus those damned pervert jokes which are far worse but I guess work for the Japanese public, which is the only one which matters to Oda, mind) which puts him in a bad light.
“But Zoro!”
Ryuma didn’t lock Zoro up as a child and let his brothers beat him to within an inch of his life. Ushimaru didn’t conduct freak experiments on him in the womb to try and make him a stronger swordsman. Mihawk isn’t indirectly responsible for the death of Zoro’s mother.
Enma still uses Zoro’s power. He doesn’t pick it up and turn into an invisible, steel-bodied regenerating flying swordsman. And Enma didn’t come with the baggage of an association with a deranged psycho like Judge.
Ryuma didn’t lock Zoro up as a child and let his brothers beat him to within an inch of his life. Ushimaru didn’t conduct freak experiments on him in the womb to try and make him a stronger swordsman. Mihawk isn’t indirectly responsible for the death of Zoro’s mother.
Enma still uses Zoro’s power. He doesn’t pick it up and turn into an invisible, steel-bodied regenerating flying swordsman. And Enma didn’t come with the baggage of an association with a deranged psycho like Judge.
Oda dropped the ball by making Sanji's PU boring. Imo, it'd have been cooler if Sanji learned all the other rokushiki techniquwes and created variants. He could have combined them with haki and or DJ.
Rankyaku ->black flame rankyaku
Soru-> a fire trail just to look cool
Kami-e-> crazy evasion augmented with COO
Tekkai-> Sanji should have mastered tekkai and augmented it with COA like Jyabura since he has no armor or weapon.
Shigan -> He could perforate AND burn his enemies' bodies. Burning their organs through the hole.
Rankyaku ->black flame rankyaku
Soru-> a fire trail just to look cool
Kami-e-> crazy evasion augmented with COO
Tekkai-> Sanji should have mastered tekkai and augmented it with COA like Jyabura since he has no armor or weapon.
Shigan -> He could perforate AND burn his enemies' bodies. Burning their organs through the hole.
Enma's power.
The sword is special and dangerous, more so than it's wielder here.
It's Oden's aura that Kaido is sensing here. Not Zoro's. Enma is specifically emitting a dead's man Haki, basically. It has a power of its own and in the image below you can see - again - that it produce its own aura, which is, as far as I can remember, the first and only time that it happened in the manga. It's also the only sword which somehow can drain the haki of its wielder to make stronger cuts, which is basically "a magic sword".
Regarding Zoro's link with Ryuma, it is obviously extremely relevant. I do not believe he is the heir of the last Daimyo of Ringo, but he's definitively a descendant of Ryuma and Oda pushed the thing far enough that the two are basically look-alike. And when one knows Japanese culture (or pop-culture at least) you knows that it means something, which is basically that Zoro's that strong because of who is ancestors are.
And said ancestor is obviously far stronger than Judge Vinsmoke ever was in that case. We aren't talking about an average strong dude, we're talking a man strong enough that he alone was enough to make the WG back off Wano, at least according to his legend. That's who Zoro is the second coming of. That's why he decapitated a western-style dragon like Ryuma did.
To get back to Sanji, his situation is, just like Zoro, far beyond his control. He didn't choose to be genetically modified before his birth. He didn't ask to be Judge's son, and even today his power-up, unlike Zoro's or Luffy's which are just power-scalling tools, make him question it, himself and what he's becoming, which is all extremely interesting.
Using the RS was bad, the "humor" he had since the TS is trash, but Sanji's current power-up is the most interesting we have seen in the manga so far, because it makes the character who got it question himself, wonder if he'll turn into his worst nightmare. It opens up a trove of possibilities for future stories. What will Enma open as a story tool for Zoro, or Luffy's mastery of CoC ? Basically none or very little once this arc will be over.
For once, Oda took the time to build up this power-up and explain why Sanji isn't just going "Haha, I'm stronger now and I'll kick your ass!" And he even gave him an opponent who knows of Judge and his scientific experiments, while being himself a deadly scientist. He has tied Sanji deeply to MADS, and MADS has been tied to Vegapunk, the greatest genius ever in OP apparently. And MADS was comprised of a man able to create horrible pandemies as a hobby, one who loves to create weapons of mass destruction and one who wants to create the perfect human weapon/army.
Those are all extremely interesting elements which will be picked up in the future, which is great.
To sum up my position : Oda ruined Sanji more because of his pervert jokes than with his power-ups and actions in the post-TS era (save perhaps using the RS in the Flower Capital.
Enma's power.
The sword is special and dangerous, more so than it's wielder here.
It's Oden's aura that Kaido is sensing here. Not Zoro's. Enma is specifically emitting a dead's man Haki, basically. It has a power of its own and in the image below you can see - again - that it produce its own aura, which is, as far as I can remember, the first and only time that it happened in the manga. It's also the only sword which somehow can drain the haki of its wielder to make stronger cuts, which is basically "a magic sword".
Regarding Zoro's link with Ryuma, it is obviously extremely relevant. I do not believe he is the heir of the last Daimyo of Ringo, but he's definitively a descendant of Ryuma and Oda pushed the thing far enough that the two are basically look-alike. And when one knows Japanese culture (or pop-culture at least) you knows that it means something, which is basically that Zoro's that strong because of who is ancestors are.
And said ancestor is obviously far stronger than Judge Vinsmoke ever was in that case. We aren't talking about an average strong dude, we're talking a man strong enough that he alone was enough to make the WG back off Wano, at least according to his legend. That's who Zoro is the second coming of. That's why he decapitated a western-style dragon like Ryuma did.
To get back to Sanji, his situation is, just like Zoro, far beyond his control. He didn't choose to be genetically modified before his birth. He didn't ask to be Judge's son, and even today his power-up, unlike Zoro's or Luffy's which are just power-scalling tools, make him question it, himself and what he's becoming, which is all extremely interesting.
Using the RS was bad, the "humor" he had since the TS is trash, but Sanji's current power-up is the most interesting we have seen in the manga so far, because it makes the character who got it question himself, wonder if he'll turn into his worst nightmare. It opens up a trove of possibilities for future stories. What will Enma open as a story tool for Zoro, or Luffy's mastery of CoC ? Basically none or very little once this arc will be over.
For once, Oda took the time to build up this power-up and explain why Sanji isn't just going "Haha, I'm stronger now and I'll kick your ass!" And he even gave him an opponent who knows of Judge and his scientific experiments, while being himself a deadly scientist. He has tied Sanji deeply to MADS, and MADS has been tied to Vegapunk, the greatest genius ever in OP apparently. And MADS was comprised of a man able to create horrible pandemies as a hobby, one who loves to create weapons of mass destruction and one who wants to create the perfect human weapon/army.
Those are all extremely interesting elements which will be picked up in the future, which is great.
To sum up my position : Oda ruined Sanji more because of his pervert jokes than with his power-ups and actions in the post-TS era (save perhaps using the RS in the Flower Capital.
Enma's power.
The sword is special and dangerous, more so than it's wielder here.
It's Oden's aura that Kaido is sensing here. Not Zoro's. Enma is specifically emitting a dead's man Haki, basically. It has a power of its own and in the image below you can see - again - that it produce its own aura, which is, as far as I can remember, the first and only time that it happened in the manga. It's also the only sword which somehow can drain the haki of its wielder to make stronger cuts, which is basically "a magic sword".
Regarding Zoro's link with Ryuma, it is obviously extremely relevant. I do not believe he is the heir of the last Daimyo of Ringo, but he's definitively a descendant of Ryuma and Oda pushed the thing far enough that the two are basically look-alike. And when one knows Japanese culture (or pop-culture at least) you knows that it means something, which is basically that Zoro's that strong because of who is ancestors are.
And said ancestor is obviously far stronger than Judge Vinsmoke ever was in that case. We aren't talking about an average strong dude, we're talking a man strong enough that he alone was enough to make the WG back off Wano, at least according to his legend. That's who Zoro is the second coming of. That's why he decapitated a western-style dragon like Ryuma did.
To get back to Sanji, his situation is, just like Zoro, far beyond his control. He didn't choose to be genetically modified before his birth. He didn't ask to be Judge's son, and even today his power-up, unlike Zoro's or Luffy's which are just power-scalling tools, make him question it, himself and what he's becoming, which is all extremely interesting.
Using the RS was bad, the "humor" he had since the TS is trash, but Sanji's current power-up is the most interesting we have seen in the manga so far, because it makes the character who got it question himself, wonder if he'll turn into his worst nightmare. It opens up a trove of possibilities for future stories. What will Enma open as a story tool for Zoro, or Luffy's mastery of CoC ? Basically none or very little once this arc will be over.
For once, Oda took the time to build up this power-up and explain why Sanji isn't just going "Haha, I'm stronger now and I'll kick your ass!" And he even gave him an opponent who knows of Judge and his scientific experiments, while being himself a deadly scientist. He has tied Sanji deeply to MADS, and MADS has been tied to Vegapunk, the greatest genius ever in OP apparently. And MADS was comprised of a man able to create horrible pandemies as a hobby, one who loves to create weapons of mass destruction and one who wants to create the perfect human weapon/army.
Those are all extremely interesting elements which will be picked up in the future, which is great.
To sum up my position : Oda ruined Sanji more because of his pervert jokes than with his power-ups and actions in the post-TS era (save perhaps using the RS in the Flower Capital.
This is just ''b-but zoro'' because oda ruined sanji's character
Oda just doesn't seems to know what to do with him, I even think that he forgot that Sanji, went to hell during timeskip
just look, none of those kenpo shits or stuff that he learned from them and adapted to suit his own style are shown, even now, the only time it was shown was that one moment when he "cook" not "fight", and with the flying ability from RS, he didn't have to use skywalk anymore which Oda seems to forget as well
Such a wasted potentials
But then again, the only straw hats that Oda didn't waste are probably Sunny, Zoro, Brook and maybe Jinbe
just look, none of those kenpo shits or stuff that he learned from them and adapted to suit his own style are shown, even now, the only time it was shown was that one moment when he "cook" not "fight", and with the flying ability from RS, he didn't have to use skywalk anymore which Oda seems to forget as well
Such a wasted potentials
But then again, the only straw hats that Oda didn't waste are probably Sunny, Zoro, Brook and maybe Jinbe
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Who give a fuck about Vivre Cards ? Like, where do you get it ? That's stuff even less important than the SBS which are least are in the main material (manga). You want to prove me wrong, throw official translations at me, not shitty Vivre Cards.
I'm still waiting the official French translation for those chapters, but as far as I can find everywhere, it's not Zoro power alone.
I'm still waiting the official French translation for those chapters, but as far as I can find everywhere, it's not Zoro power alone.
No, it's driven by reading comprehension. A very basic skill you don't seem to possess. Show me OFFICIAL material in English if you want, to prove that the translation I posted is wrong and then I'll agree with you. Because as far as I can see and read in the manga it's not Zoro's power alone who was making Kaido worried, it was because of Oden's aura still being in the magic sword Zoro got and hadn't ever to work hard to master since he took him the grand amount of two panels to achieve it.
So, again. If you dislike Sanji's current power-up, hate on Zoro being given a magic sword with no real drawbacks, hate on him not being some nobody who became strong but just the descendant of the strongest samurai ever. But stop with the double standards.
Edit : in fact i do have official French translations and they debunk your point. I just need to find how to link them here since they don't have URLs...
So, again. If you dislike Sanji's current power-up, hate on Zoro being given a magic sword with no real drawbacks, hate on him not being some nobody who became strong but just the descendant of the strongest samurai ever. But stop with the double standards.
Edit : in fact i do have official French translations and they debunk your point. I just need to find how to link them here since they don't have URLs...
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you literally use that to cope
What people don't understand is that this idea that "sanji is better than the vinsmokes with his own strength" isn't a theme rooted in canon
We were shown multiple times that sanji is in fact inferior to his family in at least a few ways. We saw it at the end of WCI, Sanji wasn't capable of saving Luffy by himself. He was getting shot at by the big mom pirates and he wasn't fast enough to outrun them. He also didn't really do much against judge.
That's the reason we never had Sanji 1v1 his family and beat the shit out of them like a lot of people thought. Strength wasn't the reason sanji was superior to them. Sanji was superior to them because he cared enough to save them even when they treated him like absolute trash their entire lives.
We were shown multiple times that sanji is in fact inferior to his family in at least a few ways. We saw it at the end of WCI, Sanji wasn't capable of saving Luffy by himself. He was getting shot at by the big mom pirates and he wasn't fast enough to outrun them. He also didn't really do much against judge.
That's the reason we never had Sanji 1v1 his family and beat the shit out of them like a lot of people thought. Strength wasn't the reason sanji was superior to them. Sanji was superior to them because he cared enough to save them even when they treated him like absolute trash their entire lives.
Zero being the descendant of rYuma doesn’t give him any benefits and nor does judge give Santi any benefits if he was only his father, even Kaido being Santis father wouldn’t ruin his character what ruins his character is that has to re;ly on judge for everything
Enma's power.
The sword is special and dangerous, more so than it's wielder here.
It's Oden's aura that Kaido is sensing here. Not Zoro's. Enma is specifically emitting a dead's man Haki, basically. It has a power of its own and in the image below you can see - again - that it produce its own aura, which is, as far as I can remember, the first and only time that it happened in the manga. It's also the only sword which somehow can drain the haki of its wielder to make stronger cuts, which is basically "a magic sword".
Regarding Zoro's link with Ryuma, it is obviously extremely relevant. I do not believe he is the heir of the last Daimyo of Ringo, but he's definitively a descendant of Ryuma and Oda pushed the thing far enough that the two are basically look-alike. And when one knows Japanese culture (or pop-culture at least) you knows that it means something, which is basically that Zoro's that strong because of who is ancestors are.
And said ancestor is obviously far stronger than Judge Vinsmoke ever was in that case. We aren't talking about an average strong dude, we're talking a man strong enough that he alone was enough to make the WG back off Wano, at least according to his legend. That's who Zoro is the second coming of. That's why he decapitated a western-style dragon like Ryuma did.
Zoro can do anything he can do with Emma by himself Emma uses his haki not the other way around all swords have their owners spirits this just inherited will, not Haki if it wears oden’s haki it wouldn’t be strange to kaido, plus why would zero huff after using Odens haki
Plus you’re using fan scans zoro doesn’t say enmas power Zoro is limiting his haki so Emma doesn’t take all of it
Headcanon Ryuma does nothing for Zoro
Enma's power.
The sword is special and dangerous, more so than it's wielder here.
It's Oden's aura that Kaido is sensing here. Not Zoro's. Enma is specifically emitting a dead's man Haki, basically. It has a power of its own and in the image below you can see - again - that it produce its own aura, which is, as far as I can remember, the first and only time that it happened in the manga. It's also the only sword which somehow can drain the haki of its wielder to make stronger cuts, which is basically "a magic sword".
Regarding Zoro's link with Ryuma, it is obviously extremely relevant. I do not believe he is the heir of the last Daimyo of Ringo, but he's definitively a descendant of Ryuma and Oda pushed the thing far enough that the two are basically look-alike. And when one knows Japanese culture (or pop-culture at least) you knows that it means something, which is basically that Zoro's that strong because of who is ancestors are.
And said ancestor is obviously far stronger than Judge Vinsmoke ever was in that case. We aren't talking about an average strong dude, we're talking a man strong enough that he alone was enough to make the WG back off Wano, at least according to his legend. That's who Zoro is the second coming of. That's why he decapitated a western-style dragon like Ryuma did.
Plus you’re using fan scans zoro doesn’t say enmas power Zoro is limiting his haki so Emma doesn’t take all of it
Headcanon Ryuma does nothing for Zoro
In regards to sanji's power ups, I don't see how this is so much different from Luffy's power ups. Luffy just gets advanced haki abilities that take other characters lifetimes to master. At least in sanji's case, we have an explanation for these abilities. For Luffy, he's a borderline mary sue who just gets every powerful ability in the series because the plot demands it.
I don't think its bad that sanji's power ups are tied to judge. He is still judge's son and even if he doesn't consider judge to be his father in the spiritual sense, sanji can't just pretend he's not a vinsmoke.
I don't think its bad that sanji's power ups are tied to judge. He is still judge's son and even if he doesn't consider judge to be his father in the spiritual sense, sanji can't just pretend he's not a vinsmoke.