General & Others Luffys dream > Zoros dream? dream on!
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Hmm didn't expected such a long reply 
But sure i'd answer
Bege literally planned an assassination on Big Mom, which if it succeeded would have greatly increased his infamy in the news, and was actually close to succeeding despite being vastly inferior to her, so while it wouldn't make him stronger than Whitebeard, it would increase his infamy
A level above to me means being able to win without being pushed to your absolute limits, so somewhere like high diff. And currently it does look like a high diff difference, but if it was mid diff it wouldn't surprise me either. It could depend on the way Oden vs Kaido fight goes. But i see that we both agree on Roger and Whitebeard being higher than the rest, so ultimately then i don't see the point of the rest of your post if you agree that Luffy's goal(Pirate King Roger) is higher than the current top tiers Mihawk is included in. And the logic you apply to Zoro can also be applied to Luffy after achieving his goal, which will then go back to square one. Ultimately then it doesn't really contradict the logic of Luffy's dream being superior to Zoro's dream. Regardless, i'd continue to reply
This is all true, but you're ommiting a few things i'd like to clarify beforehand.
- Power-level wise it doesn't matter that Roger was weaker when he became Pirate king due to his sickness. We know for a fact that at Roger's peak, he was equal to Whitebeard, so the pirate king power-lvl still stands. Whether he actually became pirate king later through illness or not is less relevant
It was just a final accomplishment in Roger's life before dying, with Oda taking advantage of this to continue to portray Roger and Whitebeard as equals.
That's why he decided to make Roger the pirate king, but by establishing Whitebeard as the one who helped him in becoming the pirate king(gifting the only crewmate with the ability to read Road Poneglyphs).
In the end, Roger and Whitebeard are the peak of one piece, parallel that Luffy and Blackbeard aim at surpassing, with Roger symbolically gaining the pirate king title that Luffy will eventually take for himself. That's all there is to it
- About Roger's journey to become pirate king, i'd say that what you omit is the fact that this flashback was made from Oden's perspective. What i mean by this is that we didn't see the entirety of Roger's journey but we know for a fact he was considered the strongest pirate at his peak, with only having Whitebeard as his equal.
But regardless of this, there have been few hints left showing that Roger did prove his strength
> We know Shiki acknowledged his strength after having history of battles with him, with even Sengoku knowing Roger would beat him in a fight
And Shiki was basically an equivalent to what a current yonko is, portrayed as a threat great enough both Prime Garp and Prime Sengoku decided to tag-team him, with the battle lasting long enough to destroy half marineford. During the yonko presentation bounties however, they were the focus, hence Shiki and the others weren't as highlighted, especially since he disappeared in time due to laying low
But there is no indication the current yonko are any stronger than him. Infact he had the largest fleet at the time. Now you're probably going to tell me that the 20years gap was during the timeskip/talk me about movie Shiki, but movie is non canon, with Indigo saying "at least 20years", and with Oda leaving hints of Shiki here and there, he could still use this plot to make him come back somehow
During Rocks' era, all of them were much younger. Even Whitebeard was referred as young Whitebeard. which his tales in his youth being portrayed similar to current Weevil's
So all of them weren't at their peak at that point(38 years ago). It was the point of that remark, but we know for a fact at least that Big Mom was already a yonko at least 20years ago
And at Roger's peak, he only had one equal(Whitebeard) against whom he also got multiple fights before
And even while old and sick, having territorial clashes with the great Whitebeard(placed on a higher pedestal again) were part of the yonko infamy
Yet the current yonko were still portrayed as silver medalists even comparatively to that Whitebeard
Everyone wanted his seat
> Kaido(known for multiple captures and defeats) was aiming at taking advantage of Whitebeard being busy by MF war to try to kill him
> Shanks himself acknowledged Whitebeard's seat on top of other top tiers during the discussion on moby dick
Note his words carefully. He first says Blackbeard ultimately will seek the top, then adds eventually he'd EVEN come to steal YOUR position!!
> Big Mom herself was thinking the same(placing Whitebeard on a higher pedestal)
> Blackbeard was looking up to him more than anybody and was talking as if prime Whitebeard could have succeded in saving Ace
Other people were also thinking the war against multiple top tiers was debatable
And Pirate King Roger was equal to this man in his prime.
Pretty much says it all
But sure i'd answerBege literally planned an assassination on Big Mom, which if it succeeded would have greatly increased his infamy in the news, and was actually close to succeeding despite being vastly inferior to her, so while it wouldn't make him stronger than Whitebeard, it would increase his infamy
A level above to me means being able to win without being pushed to your absolute limits, so somewhere like high diff. And currently it does look like a high diff difference, but if it was mid diff it wouldn't surprise me either. It could depend on the way Oden vs Kaido fight goes. But i see that we both agree on Roger and Whitebeard being higher than the rest, so ultimately then i don't see the point of the rest of your post if you agree that Luffy's goal(Pirate King Roger) is higher than the current top tiers Mihawk is included in. And the logic you apply to Zoro can also be applied to Luffy after achieving his goal, which will then go back to square one. Ultimately then it doesn't really contradict the logic of Luffy's dream being superior to Zoro's dream. Regardless, i'd continue to reply
This is all true, but you're ommiting a few things i'd like to clarify beforehand.
- Power-level wise it doesn't matter that Roger was weaker when he became Pirate king due to his sickness. We know for a fact that at Roger's peak, he was equal to Whitebeard, so the pirate king power-lvl still stands. Whether he actually became pirate king later through illness or not is less relevant
It was just a final accomplishment in Roger's life before dying, with Oda taking advantage of this to continue to portray Roger and Whitebeard as equals.
That's why he decided to make Roger the pirate king, but by establishing Whitebeard as the one who helped him in becoming the pirate king(gifting the only crewmate with the ability to read Road Poneglyphs).
In the end, Roger and Whitebeard are the peak of one piece, parallel that Luffy and Blackbeard aim at surpassing, with Roger symbolically gaining the pirate king title that Luffy will eventually take for himself. That's all there is to it
- About Roger's journey to become pirate king, i'd say that what you omit is the fact that this flashback was made from Oden's perspective. What i mean by this is that we didn't see the entirety of Roger's journey but we know for a fact he was considered the strongest pirate at his peak, with only having Whitebeard as his equal.
But regardless of this, there have been few hints left showing that Roger did prove his strength
> We know Shiki acknowledged his strength after having history of battles with him, with even Sengoku knowing Roger would beat him in a fight
And Shiki was basically an equivalent to what a current yonko is, portrayed as a threat great enough both Prime Garp and Prime Sengoku decided to tag-team him, with the battle lasting long enough to destroy half marineford. During the yonko presentation bounties however, they were the focus, hence Shiki and the others weren't as highlighted, especially since he disappeared in time due to laying low
But there is no indication the current yonko are any stronger than him. Infact he had the largest fleet at the time. Now you're probably going to tell me that the 20years gap was during the timeskip/talk me about movie Shiki, but movie is non canon, with Indigo saying "at least 20years", and with Oda leaving hints of Shiki here and there, he could still use this plot to make him come back somehow
During Rocks' era, all of them were much younger. Even Whitebeard was referred as young Whitebeard. which his tales in his youth being portrayed similar to current Weevil's
So all of them weren't at their peak at that point(38 years ago). It was the point of that remark, but we know for a fact at least that Big Mom was already a yonko at least 20years ago
And at Roger's peak, he only had one equal(Whitebeard) against whom he also got multiple fights before
And even while old and sick, having territorial clashes with the great Whitebeard(placed on a higher pedestal again) were part of the yonko infamy
Yet the current yonko were still portrayed as silver medalists even comparatively to that Whitebeard
Everyone wanted his seat
> Kaido(known for multiple captures and defeats) was aiming at taking advantage of Whitebeard being busy by MF war to try to kill him
> Shanks himself acknowledged Whitebeard's seat on top of other top tiers during the discussion on moby dick
> Big Mom herself was thinking the same(placing Whitebeard on a higher pedestal)
> Blackbeard was looking up to him more than anybody and was talking as if prime Whitebeard could have succeded in saving Ace
Other people were also thinking the war against multiple top tiers was debatable
And Pirate King Roger was equal to this man in his prime.
Pretty much says it all
Let them argue about Roger not being the strongest, or how Pirate King doesn’t mean that you’re the strongest, while ignoring three inescapable things
1.) Pirate King is a title based on freedom. Common sense dictates that to be the freest, you have to be the strongest. If you’re not the strongest, you’re not the freest, because at any given moment, a bigger fish can come and beat you, and stop you from living the way you want to live and doing the things you want to do. For Luffy to be the most free, he has to be the strongest. End of story.
2.) Luffy has directly associated being Pirate King with being the strongest, saying he has to stand above the Yonko, and beneath them the Admirals, to be the King.
3.) Whitebeard was Roger’s equal when he was dying of a fatal illness. Reasonable to assume had Roger been fully healthy, he would have been stronger.
Nothing more than a way for them to try and delegitimize other characters for the sake of their favorite.
G
Because only Zoro was aiming that high so he used that as words of encouragement. If Brook told him he wants to be the world's greatest musician and Luffy told him he requires no less than that, would that be true? No, you don't need to be fucking Michael Jackson just to sail with the Pirate King's crew. If Zoro ended up the 2nd strongest swordsman behind Mihawk it wouldn't make a difference for Luffy, he'd still find the one piece
It is Pirate Manga, becoming PK is what all the entire story is about and none bt only Roger had achieved that so far.
So obviously becoming PK> WSS. That is a fact and Mihawk himself accepted that.
Bt for characters, their dreams can be simple ones yet is most imp to em. In that sense these Dreams are incomparable, finding cure for anything would mean nothing for someone who isn't a Doctor and everything to a Doctor, same for finding All Blue, PK, WSS, drawing world Map n other dreams.
Also each of SHs would be willing to give up on their dreams to save each others, that's who they are and Luffy put together as a crew. So if this moment is used to downplay Zoro somehow, that's straightaway wrong.
So obviously becoming PK> WSS. That is a fact and Mihawk himself accepted that.
Bt for characters, their dreams can be simple ones yet is most imp to em. In that sense these Dreams are incomparable, finding cure for anything would mean nothing for someone who isn't a Doctor and everything to a Doctor, same for finding All Blue, PK, WSS, drawing world Map n other dreams.
Also each of SHs would be willing to give up on their dreams to save each others, that's who they are and Luffy put together as a crew. So if this moment is used to downplay Zoro somehow, that's straightaway wrong.
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No matter what mental gymnastics/translation you use Mihawk thinks he's inferior to WB.
Lmao, the worst part is it's an old and sick Whitebeard
Lmao, the worst part is it's an old and sick Whitebeard
Are you sure in that? At least Joyboy made it to Raftel, we dont know if anyone else did it before him...
Full circumnavigation of the globe sounds more like something that would be Nami's dream, not Luffy's lol.