General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet

[Logiko]

Friend, they call you a troll because you ignore what other write, handwave everything that denies your faith, move goalpoasts, answer only what you want to answer, waltz around your points and then accuse the others of being pidgeons, biased and not smart enough to understand you.

You put extremely biased points as facts (See Vivi less connected to the crew than carrot) and then when they call you on it, you do mental gymnastic and create a false narrative that suits your biased starting opinion. You don't come to discuss, you come to be a prophet. And when called out on it, you provoke and feign ignorance.

Can you see that everybody is discussing politely, listening to each other except when they discuss with you? Do you think it's a coincidence?

Anyway, I wish Gaimon was part of the crew.

I don't ignore anything. I counter the arguments. That's different. That the principle of a debate. calling me a troll for that is just childlish. The thing is.. once I counter an argument, that counter argument is REALLY ignored and everyone is back to the previous argument.. I mean come on lol. I don't move goal post, my points are just very clear. And yes when I'm countered by " you are a troll" after making a strong point about a storytelling technique.. I call pidgeon and ignorance. because this is what it is sadly.

Example: you just said "You put extremely biased points as facts (See Vivi less connected to the crew than carrot)"

I never said that. I said, Vivi had stronger interactions with half the crew than Vivi did. This is completely different.. How can I take you seriously, when your only way to reply to me is to deform what I say ?

But you are right, I do not come here to discuss per say, I come here to convince.

Everybody here is discussing politely for the sole reason that everybody here is on the same "YAMATO" side bias and the constant Carrot slander side.. nothing more with that.

 

[Pot Goblin]

Friend, they call you a troll because you ignore what other write, handwave everything that denies your faith, move goalpoasts, answer only what you want to answer, waltz around your points and then accuse the others of being pidgeons, biased and not smart enough to understand you.

You put extremely biased points as facts (See Vivi less connected to the crew than carrot) and then when they call you on it, you do mental gymnastic and create a false narrative that suits your biased starting opinion. You don't come to discuss, you come to be a prophet. And when called out on it, you provoke and feign ignorance.

Can you see that everybody is discussing politely, listening to each other except when they discuss with you? Do you think it's a coincidence?

Anyway, I wish Gaimon was part of the crew.

Unironically, Gaimon probably could've been an animal expert/tamer if he actually joined. Like he would've been the guy that the crew turns to if they ever encounter any type of animal or even a Zoan type. Imagine his fighting style is that he uses an island's native wildlife to his advantage. It's something I could see Oda legit make work.

 

[jordin]

You can debate all you want, I love to that. The thing that tends to tikles me is when I need to repeat x1000 the same thing and being called a troll or sexist s** because of it.

People call you a troll because its so hard to imagine you're actually reflecting on what you say.

You say people are being too biased yet there's numerous examples of you making contradicting arguments just for Carrot (not to mention your profile is literally called CarrotForNakama). You complain about bad faith then ignore any good Yamato point even when they use your own logic. You say everyone's too toxic and in the next post, you're calling someone a pigeon or something else condescending since they don't share the same opinion as you.

The worst of it all is that you play the victim and don't ever consider your viewpoint wrong in any discussion. You're just here to relay your gospel and have your ears shut on anything that doesn't agree with it. Why should anyone take a person like that seriously?

 

[Sigran101]

Unironically, Gaimon probably could've been an animal expert/tamer if he actually joined. Like he would've been the guy that the crew turns to if they ever encounter any type of animal or even a Zoan type. Imagine his fighting style is that he uses an island's native wildlife to his advantage. It's something I could see Oda legit make work.

Man, is Tama the new Gaimon?

 

[Pot Goblin]

Man, is Tama the new Gaimon?

Considering her power would be very similar in this case then yes.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Man, is Tama the new Gaimon?

It's like poetry.

 

[Logiko]

I agree there's a big difference, but you call bad faith arguments on plenty of things that aren't toxic, like a lot of our previous discussions. People aren't struggling to understand the concepts, we just disagree with your interperetation of the story. Like I said before, I have a bachelor's in literary analysis, none of the literary concepts you've talked about have gone over my head. It's just that the connections between the concepts you're talking about and Carrot and Yamato's place in the story are flimsy at best and completely unconvincing.

You are aware, since you have degrees relating to literature, that experts disagree on the symbolism and meaning of many works of fiction right? It doesn't mean one side doesn't understand literature, there's just different points of view that have arguments for and against them and people are allowed to disagree.

Experts tends to disagree on the interpretation not really on the craft. The craft and the techniques are absolute. Like clews reality with science, storytelling pattern can be pin pointed. if a pattern appears, this pattern is most likely to be a real technique of the author. I don't know if I'm clear on that..

For example, the existence of a pattern related to the action of the mugiwara with their post and their characterization (what I call the "shining Nakama action", is not something really up for debate as this pattern was clearly depicted in the story with clear storytelling tools and representations.

Same for the existence of an specific/antagonistic introduction for each strawhats related to their characterization..

Same for the presence of the three driving forces (neologism) in every strawhat.

--

I'm basing my argumentation on the presence of these pattern, in other words I'm looking if those pattern also applies to Carrot. If they do, this is a clew for Carrot and a step on the direction to the Sunny.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

People call you a troll because its so hard to imagine you're actually reflecting on what you say.

You say people are being too biased yet there's numerous examples of you making contradicting arguments just for Carrot (not to mention your profile is literally called CarrotForNakama). You complain about bad faith then ignore any good Yamato point even when they use your own logic. You say everyone's too toxic and in the next post, you're calling someone a pigeon or something else condescending since they don't share the same opinion as you.

The worst of it all is that you play the victim and don't ever consider your viewpoint wrong in any discussion. You're just here to relay your gospel and have your ears shut on anything that doesn't agree with it. Why should anyone take a person like that seriously?

Before Carrot I spent more than 8 years just focusing on trying to understand how One Piece was crafted in order to reproduce it.. then I spent 4 years on working only on the character of Carrot. So yeah.. I may look very confident in my analysis, but everything as been thoroughly thought.

Yes I still think people are too biaised on Yamato because they attribute meaning that doesn't exist to her character

Don't get me wrong, there ARE good point for Yamato in the story, that's why Yamato comes second in my conclusion on my blog. But those clew are just not enough to reach Carrot. Even tho yamato seems more present in the story right now.

I say "you are toxic" to those who are toxic. I don't say that to those who are not. If you don't want to be called "toxic" ... don't be toxic.. I don't know it doesn't seem so hard.

 

[Sigran101]

Experts tends to disagree on the interpretation not really on the craft. The craft and the techniques are absolute. Like clews reality with science, storytelling pattern can be pin pointed. if a pattern appears, this pattern is most likely to be a real technique of the author. I don't know if I'm clear on that..

For example, the existence of a pattern related to the action of the mugiwara with their post and their characterization (what I call the "shining Nakama action", is not something really up for debate as this pattern was clearly depicted in the story with clear storytelling tools and representations.

Same for the existence of an specific/antagonistic introduction for each strawhats related to their characterization..

Same for the presence of the three driving forces (neologism) in every strawhat.

--

I'm basing my argumentation on the presence of these pattern, in other words I'm looking if those pattern also applies to Carrot. If they do, this is a clew for Carrot and a step on the direction to the Sunny.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

Before Carrot I spent more than 8 years just focusing on trying to understand how One Piece was crafted in order to reproduce it.. then I spent 4 years on working only on the character of Carrot. So yeah.. I may look very confident in my analysis, but everything as been thoroughly thought.

Yes I still think people are too biaised on Yamato because they attribute meaning that doesn't exist to her character

Don't get me wrong, there ARE good point for Yamato in the story, that's why Yamato comes second in my conclusion on my blog. But those clew are just not enough to reach Carrot. Even tho yamato seems more present in the story right now.

I say "you are toxic" to those who are toxic. I don't say that to those who are not. If you don't want to be called "toxic" ... don't be toxic.. I don't know it doesn't seem so hard.

This is exactly my point. I agree the things you mentioned are important. But you're ignoring a lot of other important patterns as well, such as connection to the arc villain, having an arc centered around them, and having a tragic backstory. This is why there's room for disagreement.

 

[jordin]

So yeah.. I may look very confident in my analysis, but everything as been thoroughly thought.

And why should we care? We're doing nothing but giving opinions here. Your opinion is not fact. It's your interpretation of the story, no matter how many dozens of times you reread WCI or the degrees you have. You're also crazy to think you can be condescending to someone then expect them to accept it because you're you.

Yes I still think people are too biaised on Yamato because they attribute meaning that doesn't exist to her character

Guess what, this is your opinion. Just because "you think" doesn't make it fact. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make them biased. It's really not that hard.

I say "you are toxic" to those who are toxic. I don't say that to those who are not. If you don't want to be called "toxic" ... don't be toxic.. I don't know it doesn't seem so hard.

You call people names and slander Yamato too. How are you any different?

 

[Logiko]

This is exactly my point. I agree the things you mentioned are important. But you're ignoring a lot of other important patterns as well, such as connection to the arc villain, having an arc centered around them, and having a tragic backstory. This is why there's room for disagreement.

If you look closely at what I say. I do not ignore them. I only go deeper into these concept.
- Having a arc centered around the strawhat (or at least a storyline) is necessary, BUT it doesn't need to come before the joining of the strawhat with the crew. That's why the comparison between Yamato and Carrot on this point is a fallacy
- Same for the Arc villain. It can happen after.

COnsidering those two point, you can't just say, "well Yamato had that, therefore Carrot is behind" , you will have to wait until Carrot leave the story for that. But even then, I took these point into consideration here so saying that are "ignore them" is wrong.

In the case of the third point "the backstory" you have to understand that the backstory is only the vehicule for the real content in the story. A character don't need a backstory, a character need what is INSIDE the backstory. THerefore, if what is inside a backstory is present in the present of the story, the "past side of the backstory" become unnecessary. Do you understand ? This is not me ignoring the point, this is me going deeper into the analysis of said point.

And why should we care? We're doing nothing but giving opinions here. Your opinion is not fact. It's your interpretation of the story, no matter how many dozens of times you reread WCI or the degrees you have. You're also crazy to think you can be condescending to someone then expect them to accept it because you're you.

The thing is, i'm not just giving my opinion here. I'm also most of the time explaining concept that are present in the story. Concept that you are ignoring. Those concept are not "opinion", they are factual techniques. And I understand how me saying that can be "condescending".. but there is just no other way to explain those concept... if you don't trust me... you don't trust me.. nothing even facts that I will give you won't pass.. That would be like me (as a potential scientist) trying to convince an antivaxxer that conspiracy theory are actually harmfull.. this won't go well because - by principle - the personn won't trust me because of who I am

Guess what, this is your opinion. Just because "you think" doesn't make it fact. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make them biased. It's really not that hard.

There are things that do not need thinking, they are just there.

You call people names and slander Yamato too. How are you any different?

What ? I never slandered Yamato. I like her character.

 

[Sigran101]

If you look closely at what I say. I do not ignore them. I only go deeper into these concept.
- Having a arc centered around the strawhat (or at least a storyline) is necessary, BUT it doesn't need to come before the joining of the strawhat with the crew. That's why the comparison between Yamato and Carrot on this point is a fallacy
- Same for the Arc villain. It can happen after.

COnsidering those two point, you can't just say, "well Yamato had that, therefore Carrot is behind" , you will have to wait until Carrot leave the story for that. But even then, I took these point into consideration here so saying that are "ignore them" is wrong.

In the case of the third point "the backstory" you have to understand that the backstory is only the vehicule for the real content in the story. A character don't need a backstory, a character need what is INSIDE the backstory. THerefore, if what is inside a backstory is present in the present of the story, the "past side of the backstory" become unnecessary. Do you understand ? This is not me ignoring the point, this is me going deeper into the analysis of said point.




The thing is, i'm not just giving my opinion here. I'm also most of the time explaining concept that are present in the story. Concept that you are ignoring. Those concept are not "opinion", they are factual techniques. And I understand how me saying that can be "condescending".. but there is just no other way to explain those concept... if you don't trust me... you don't trust me.. nothing even facts that I will give you won't pass.. That would be like me (as a potential scientist) trying to convince an antivaxxer that conspiracy theory are actually harmfull.. this won't go well because - by principle - the personn won't trust me because of who I am





There are things that do not need thinking, they are just there.




What ? I never slandered Yamato. I like her character.

But that argument is a huge stretch. Carrot's biggest villains were Peros and Jack. To think the next arc villain will be personal to her is not analyzing or even theorizing. It's just wishful thinking. Especially since we are in the end game of One piece.
Additionally, the same logic can be applied to the parts you see as Yamato's weaknesses, such as meeting the other strawhats, but you won't concede that.

 

[SILVERS000]

This will be so fun after Wano... Dunno what that guy will say.

Back in the past someone named AGOG at AP was obsessed with Perona... And this guy is similar to him.

Said he's deleting this account and making a new one after Wano regardless if she joins or not

 

[thedarkdragon11]

Franky - the whole cp9 specially chapapa

He also defeated Nero...

I think an arguement can be made that Carrot's interactions with the Straw Hats pre-Chapter 1006 is at the very least on par with some of the other members. But I agree that saying she's superior to even Vivi is taking it a bit too far. Especially since Carrot's campaign to be a crewmate is seriously struggling as of right now.

Really glad to have you and @Shift in this thread... :cheers:

Straw Hat Crew Concept Sketch

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but in the bottom left corner of this sketch, "bolero" is written and doesn't seem connected to any of the crew. Think it means anything? Jinbe was erased in an earlier version of this sketch and put back in, maybe something similar happened with another character?

Bolero is a type of a Spanish dance... Oda might've intended to add a dancer in his prototype...

Unironically, Gaimon probably could've been an animal expert/tamer if he actually joined. Like he would've been the guy that the crew turns to if they ever encounter any type of animal or even a Zoan type. Imagine his fighting style is that he uses an island's native wildlife to his advantage. It's something I could see Oda legit make work.

Quite similar to Tama's DF mixed with Jinbe's sea creatures summoning... Like a tamer, eh?

 

[Electricmastro]

But that argument is a huge stretch. Carrot's biggest villains were Peros and Jack. To think the next arc villain will be personal to her is not analyzing or even theorizing. It's just wishful thinking. Especially since we are in the end game of One piece.
Additionally, the same logic can be applied to the parts you see as Yamato's weaknesses, such as meeting the other strawhats, but you won't concede that.

Yeah, can go back to Zoro and Luffy taking down Morgan together, Nami tying up Buggy's body parts for Luffy to get a better hit in, Usopp fighting off Jango while Luffy fights off Kuro, Sanji fighting off Pearl and Gin while Luffy fights off Krieg, etc.

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

Alright, had a fresh night's sleep so now I'll take a proper crack at this question. I think the issue that I was having yesterday is that I was trying too hard to find a way to stretch your first two points over Wano in some way. I can explain how she fulfills all 3 in Whole Cake Island, but she does not fit into the first two in Wano at all, which I'll get more into later. So instead of trying to force a negative into a positive, I'll instead acknowledge the negative and bring up how she might make up for this later.


I would say that Carrot just misses fulfilling the first two in Whole Cake Island due to its unique structure. Most other arcs have Luffy beating the big bad, saving the island and its people with the help of his crewmates knocking out the upper tiers in the villain's group. The potential crewmate officially joins when the dust starts to settle. However in WCI this does not happen, Luffy doesn't beat Big Mom and save WCI's citizens, no one in the arc has a major 1v1 other than Luffy, and the arc ends with the crew trying to flee from the BMI pirates.

Then the story goes into the Reverie arc straight away, which then instantly leads to the Wano Arc...
Whole Cake Island ends at 902, Reverie starts at 903 and ends at 908, Wano starts at 909.

If WCI was a standard arc then Carrot would fulfill all 3 requirements easily:

1. Personal Conflict with Big Mom and the BMI Pirates and how they kidnapped one of her saviors that saved her people, who just so happened to be a Straw Hat.
2. Since BIg Mom is the mastermind behind the kidnapping then she would be Carrot's main villain that Luffy would takedown, with her and the other members taking out the upper tiers of the BMI pirates. During the after-party she joins and no one bats and eye

The third one is one I think she still consistently has today and that's with the death of Pedro. I'm in the camp that Carrot is an example of a real-time tragedy. Arguably, the whole scene of Pedro sacrificing himself while Carrot tearfully and powerlessly watches could very easily be compared to the flashbacks of other Straw Hats. You mentioned how the terrible past makes them more like family and I would agree. I would argue that through the tragedy of Pedro's death Carrot receives a heartfelt scene with Sanji which leads into the family moment that you mentioned. You'll see both pages that I'm talking about linked below. That moment where she's cheering for food with the rest of the crew helps to tie a neat bow on the end of the WCI arc.

http://imgur.com/a/bFa4LVM

I swear to god though if Pedro is still kicking then that'll be some real shit, wouldn't it...

Anyway, since the first two didn't actually happen then that means Carrot still needs to finish these requirements off in the current story.

The issue is that now Big Mom might be beaten by someone other than Luffy and the Straw Hats, not only that but the BMI pirates are currently out of the picture. There's a chance that Oda might goof them out of the arc entirely instead of them being Carrot's personal conflict by trying to kill her saviors again.

So the only real chance of Carrot completely tying the loop on WCI is that Big Mom and the BMI pirates escape Wano and become the villains of another arc. But let's be honest, absolutely NO ONE would be a fan of it as I think we're all ready for some new villains in the story.

And the elephant in the room here is that Carrot does not fulfill these first two requirements in a satisfying way in Wano. I'm pretty sure that she has not shown outward emotional investment towards Kaido and the Beast Pirates. And while the rest of the crew have been fighting the Beast Pirates, Carrot's only fight was with Perospero which she lost.

This is actually pretty crazy if you think about it... even now she's been focused on WCI related plot points with Perospero.

So to put in words what this means, I would say that with the narrative side and the friendship side of being a nakama Carrot is much weaker on the narrative side compared to other Straw Hats. The other members that took more than 1 arc to join (Nami, Robin, Franky, and Jinbe) had strong Straw Hat vibes in each arc. Unless Carrot's situation changes then she won't have that luxury considering her current status in Wano.

However, I do think that Carrot can potentially make up for her weaker narrative side with her stronger friendship side. I think there's a legit argument that Carrot is a true close friend to the Straw Hats, which could potentially make up for her shortcomings in Wano

But again her current situation would need to change first before that can be properly explored...

Great points, although sorry that I laughed really loud that your fellow Carrot fan said that “Perospero is not Carrot’s main villain. Carrot’s main villain is the sea.” Well, he clearly doesn’t understand the meaning of “main villain” that Luffy & Straw Hats need to defeat for the potential crew to join. It’s always been like that. From Zoro to Jinbe. I think I don’t need to mention those, as I believe you have much more intelligence to comprehend

And from your points above regarding Big Mom, and for her stronger friendship side, I’m still waiting for your answer of the question: “why Carrot needs to be special, and it goes for Carrot and only Carrot?” As again I must say that the 3 main points (personal conflict, main villain, and terrible past) are always been there for each Straw Hat. Yes, your fellow Carrot fan said “they’re not needed”, but then again the same question:”why they’re not needed for Carrot and only Carrot? Why Carrot has to be special?”

I really hope you have good answers, especially answers which have been implied in the story; not “I think” or something like “to surprise the readers”. Feels like I’m losing more brain cells regarding your fellow mate. Thank goodness you’re here

 

[Gilgamesh]

Bolero is a type of a Spanish dance... Oda might've intended to add a dancer in his prototype...

That's what I think. More specifically, Yamato would actually fit the dancer-type in a round-about way, just like how the botanist was turned into Robin. Yamato is dressed like a Miko, a Shinto shamaness, who perform the traditional Kagura dances. The Miko were also supposedly taught by or derived their technique from the goddess Ame-no-Uzume, the goddess of the dawn, dance, and merriment/mirth/entertainment/parties. She did a stripping dance to lure out the sun goddess. If Yamato is supposed to be based on the Miko, it would make sense why she randomly tore her sleeves off and partially exposed her breasts, which could be referencing the story of Ame-no-Uzume. That would also be pretty fitting given two of the big historical figures brought up in Wano, Joy Boy and Nika, as well as the importance of the coming dawns of Wano and the world and the importance of parties after Luffy wins.

 

[Kurodiamondo]

That's what I think. More specifically, Yamato would actually fit the dancer-type in a round-about way, just like how the botanist was turned into Robin. Yamato is dressed like a Miko, a Shinto shamaness, who perform the traditional Kagura dances. The Miko were also supposedly taught by or derived their technique from the goddess Ame-no-Uzume, the goddess of the dawn, dance, and merriment/mirth/entertainment/parties. She did a stripping dance to lure out the sun goddess. If Yamato is supposed to be based on the Miko, it would make sense why she randomly tore her sleeves off and partially exposed her breasts, which could be referencing the story of Ame-no-Uzume. That would also be pretty fitting given two of the big historical figures brought up in Wano, Joy Boy and Nika, as well as the importance of the coming dawns of Wano and the world and the importance of parties after Luffy wins.

I understand this reference. I also like it if the next nakama has dance based fight. I actually theorize this with kagura dance and bon dance in my post in this thread.

Knowing that, fire festival is happening, it is similar to bon festival which is to mourn the dead. Bon festival is strongly related with bon dance. The origin of this dance is actually something related to releasing soul to immortality. Somehow fits to one piece. Even bon clay/bon kurei/mr 2/bentham has dance based fight

There is a similar festival in chinese called ghost festival. Is it coincidence that BM who has soul power in wano and there is some minor theme of yokai

 

[Electricmastro]

That's what I think. More specifically, Yamato would actually fit the dancer-type in a round-about way, just like how the botanist was turned into Robin. Yamato is dressed like a Miko, a Shinto shamaness, who perform the traditional Kagura dances. The Miko were also supposedly taught by or derived their technique from the goddess Ame-no-Uzume, the goddess of the dawn, dance, and merriment/mirth/entertainment/parties. She did a stripping dance to lure out the sun goddess. If Yamato is supposed to be based on the Miko, it would make sense why she randomly tore her sleeves off and partially exposed her breasts, which could be referencing the story of Ame-no-Uzume. That would also be pretty fitting given two of the big historical figures brought up in Wano, Joy Boy and Nika, as well as the importance of the coming dawns of Wano and the world and the importance of parties after Luffy wins.

Bolero can refer to a woman's short open jacket, and there was this color spread done for One Piece High School. Could just be a coincidence and mean nothing though.

 

[thedarkdragon11]

Bolero can refer to a woman's short open jacket, and there was this color spread done for One Piece High School. Could just be a coincidence and mean nothing though.

I think that's just coincidence since the material is non-canon...

Yamato donning a bolero will make her look more like a young Kaido...

 

[Electricmastro]

I think that's just coincidence since the material is non-canon...

Yamato donning a bolero will make her look more like a young Kaido...

Yeah, Kaidou has worn jackets like that. Though, might mean nothing though.