General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet
- Thread starter Guan Yu
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Go read my blog and you will find enough manga panel for your enjoyement. For the storytelling analysis, like I said, manga panel are just a part of the evidences.
A rule is a rule ONLY when it's necessary (in that instance.. "to become a candidate or a strawhat).
The sevens rules:
Backstories are not a necesssity. They are tools ! What's necessary is what is INSIDE of them.
Glad you ask. This is a good question.
The "joining" of the crew is when the character embark WITH the crew on the ship (Vivi for Example or Momo, or Carrot or Kinemon or Ceasar etc.). "Joining" the crew means being part of the current crew. Now I we have seen the others week, there is two different type of people in those situations: The active ones (I call them the "crewmates" weither they were recruited by the crew or not) and those who are not active (you can call them "guests")
When a cahracter joins the crew it doesn't mean that the character will be "part of" the crew as a Nakama, but it can be a clew for a " recruitment" later on.
The "recruitment" is the next step, it's either the fact that the character has been so integrated with the crew that the crew is actually seeing the character as part of the "nakama family" (this was the case of Robin during the encounter against Aokiji before water seven)or.. it's either the moment when a character is "recruited" like Franky, or Brook.
Basically the "joining" comes before, the recrutment takes place "after"
I'm very carefull to distinguish those two term as this is very important for the CarrotForNakama theory :
Carrot was never recruited, but she joined Once (plus) as a crewmate. Then, she went back to the Minks so this "joining" process was cancelled. That's why I always say that Carrot will now have to "join" again the strawhats.. and that her "recruitment" will only comes AFTER that... probably during the end of the story.
Ok so, you said me that:
"
1. Co-protagonist in their arc prior joining
2. Have main antagonist to be dealt with
3. Have terrible past which usually shown in flashbacks, usually during their childhood. "
Why are those rules wrong ? Well I explained it to you there:
1. A character can be a side character before joining.
2. joining doesn't require to deal with the main antagonist
3. Having a terrible past is not a rule of joining it's not even a rule for the requierement, it's only a tool to pass 3 important storytellingpoint that are NEEDED for the RECRUTMENT and NOT the JOINING.
Simple.
A rule is a rule ONLY when it's necessary (in that instance.. "to become a candidate or a strawhat).
The sevens rules:
- Be alive = necessary
- Be relevant to the story = necessary
- Be unique and have a unique ability = necessary
- Be free from faction duty or independant = necessary
- Be a friend or a false adversary = necessary
- Looking and acting toward adventure = necessary
- Have a moral Pillar = necessary
- The quirk. 1 point because it's quite common in One Piece. = necessary because One Piece is a comedy first)
- The fighting skill 1 Point, it's quite common. = necessary to survive in the new world
- The antagonistic introduction. 2 Points because it impact the narration interestingly = necessary in term of as a storytelling tool of charcterization, but it's more of a logical rule)
- The multi layered characterization. 3 Points, Interesting but quite common. = Necessary to have a GOOD character
- The symbolic reach. 3 Points because it impacts the storytelling in an interesting way = necessary to have a DEEP character
- The Strong character arc. 4 Points because strong character arc are in fact quite rare. = Necessary to have a RELATABLE character
- The hint of a recrutment. 4 Points. I'll explain in detail what this parameter is about = Necessary to prepare the recruitment in the eys of the readers
- The hint of 3 driving forces. 5 Points, you will understand why = Necessary for the construction character arc.
- The post. 5 Points, this is one of the most important parameter = Necessary for a strawhat
- The Shining Nakama Action. 6 Points, this is the icing on top of the wedding cake = Necessary to imprint the strawhat throguh his post
Backstories are not a necesssity. They are tools ! What's necessary is what is INSIDE of them.
Glad you ask. This is a good question.
The "joining" of the crew is when the character embark WITH the crew on the ship (Vivi for Example or Momo, or Carrot or Kinemon or Ceasar etc.). "Joining" the crew means being part of the current crew. Now I we have seen the others week, there is two different type of people in those situations: The active ones (I call them the "crewmates" weither they were recruited by the crew or not) and those who are not active (you can call them "guests")
When a cahracter joins the crew it doesn't mean that the character will be "part of" the crew as a Nakama, but it can be a clew for a " recruitment" later on.
The "recruitment" is the next step, it's either the fact that the character has been so integrated with the crew that the crew is actually seeing the character as part of the "nakama family" (this was the case of Robin during the encounter against Aokiji before water seven)or.. it's either the moment when a character is "recruited" like Franky, or Brook.
Basically the "joining" comes before, the recrutment takes place "after"
I'm very carefull to distinguish those two term as this is very important for the CarrotForNakama theory :
Carrot was never recruited, but she joined Once (plus) as a crewmate. Then, she went back to the Minks so this "joining" process was cancelled. That's why I always say that Carrot will now have to "join" again the strawhats.. and that her "recruitment" will only comes AFTER that... probably during the end of the story.
Ok so, you said me that:
"
1. Co-protagonist in their arc prior joining
2. Have main antagonist to be dealt with
3. Have terrible past which usually shown in flashbacks, usually during their childhood. "
Why are those rules wrong ? Well I explained it to you there:
1. A character can be a side character before joining.
2. joining doesn't require to deal with the main antagonist
3. Having a terrible past is not a rule of joining it's not even a rule for the requierement, it's only a tool to pass 3 important storytellingpoint that are NEEDED for the RECRUTMENT and NOT the JOINING.
Simple.
The point of an analysis is that I don't do what I believe in, but what the story is telling me!!! Damn.. 
There are good point for Marco until a certain degree, that's why there is first the seven rules then another sorting.
There are good point for Marco until a certain degree, that's why there is first the seven rules then another sorting.
and here you know manga panels are part of evidences, and you still don’t want to show them here. You keep referring to your blog which has nothing to do with the arguments here.
And you still don’t elaborate why backstories are not necessary based on manga. The ones you gave up there are more theories come from your head canons.
If you don’t think it’s necessary, why every single Straw Hat has it?
still, in the end you said “probably”. Do you even understand what “probably” means? If you said that Carrot was joining then basically means everyone who was on board of Merry / Sunny “joined”.
and still those explanations have nothing to do with the story. I have asked you multiple times “give explanations based on manga” and here you are.
and if you insist that joining is different from recruitment then it’s clear that Carrot isn’t going to be recruited because she doesn’t have that tool of recruitment. Simple
You want to say “Carrot will have her time after being RECRUITED”? Then prove it, again, from manga panel when will Carrot be recruited, or any page that referring that Oda made a balloon conversation of Carrot say something about being recruited, like “I want to go out to sea with Luffy, Nami and others!”
Or maybe you can’t simply understand “give evidences from manga”?
And you still don’t elaborate why backstories are not necessary based on manga. The ones you gave up there are more theories come from your head canons.
If you don’t think it’s necessary, why every single Straw Hat has it?
still, in the end you said “probably”. Do you even understand what “probably” means? If you said that Carrot was joining then basically means everyone who was on board of Merry / Sunny “joined”.
and still those explanations have nothing to do with the story. I have asked you multiple times “give explanations based on manga” and here you are.
and if you insist that joining is different from recruitment then it’s clear that Carrot isn’t going to be recruited because she doesn’t have that tool of recruitment. Simple
You want to say “Carrot will have her time after being RECRUITED”? Then prove it, again, from manga panel when will Carrot be recruited, or any page that referring that Oda made a balloon conversation of Carrot say something about being recruited, like “I want to go out to sea with Luffy, Nami and others!”
Or maybe you can’t simply understand “give evidences from manga”?
So you replied. 
here is what your website says:
And you can see that not every straw hat managed to fit all these categories.
Why did Nami and Robin still join the crew if they failed to meet point 4?
Going through this list, Yamato already meets all 7 requirements, so how does she lose to Carrot?
1. Yamato is alive
2. she's relevant to the story as she fought kaido the main antagonist and is also Kaido's daughter
3. she's a mythical zoan and mace user so she's unique
4. Luffy freed yamato from her cuffs, she is now free to rebel and go against kaido, I'm not counting Yamato staying with momo because nowhere in the story does it say that.
5. Yamato was both a false adversary when she was Kaido's son and is now a ally of Luffy, was also a friend of ace before
6. she wanted to sail the world with Ace back then and she still does now so she always wanted adventure she said exactly that when she knocked down Kaido's dragon stature in front of Ace.
7. and she also has a moral pillar from helping luffy by switching sides and siding with oden against kaido when she was a kid
holding off kaido
and also trying to prevent onigashima from falling and crushing the people.
Yamato score: 7/7
Even if we dismiss rule 4 like you would like, Yamato still has 6/7 points
Carrot on the other hand:
1. Carrot is alive
2. Carrot meanwhile isn't relevant to the story (but you keep saying its coming without any evidence from the manga),
3. her ability is also not unique, as her main kit is just mixture of Chopper, Nami and Sanji's abilities, she doesn't bring a single new thing that no one else in the crew doesn't already have or can't do.
4. Carrot has always been free
5.. Carrot is friend of the Straw Hats, even though its not that deep
6. Carrot wanted to go to WCI as a excursion and then come back, that's called a trip, not an adventure
7. She lied to Nekomamushi about Pedro's death at the hands of perospero, so no she dosen't have a moral pillar, she acts on her feelings.
So Carrot all together has 3/7, she doesn't meet all 7 requirements.
Going by your rules, Yamato is at 6, while Carrot is at 3. Even if we dismiss rule #2 for Carrot like you would like , that still leaves her with just 4 points, 2 points behind Yamato. And yet here you are telling me that Carrot has more points than Yamato.
Also thank you for wasting my time with this pointless 7 criteria test of yours.
here is what your website says:
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story
- Be unique and have a unique ability
- Be free from faction duty or independant
- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Looking and acting toward adventure
- Have a moral Pillar
And you can see that not every straw hat managed to fit all these categories.
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story- carrot hasn't been relevant in any of the arcs she's been in. Emotional relevancy is also not the same as arc story and plot relevancy, which is more important
- Be unique and have a unique ability- Carrot's entire kit is comprised of just Chopper (transformation), Nami (Electro), and Sanji's moves (Skywalk) where is carrot's uniqueness here??
- Be free from faction duty or independent- Nami was not free when Arlong was still holding here village hostage, Robin was on the run. This category doesn't work for everyone
- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Looking and acting toward adventure
- Have a moral Pillar- Carrot lied to Nekomamushi that Perospero killed Pedro
Why did Nami and Robin still join the crew if they failed to meet point 4?
Going through this list, Yamato already meets all 7 requirements, so how does she lose to Carrot?
1. Yamato is alive
2. she's relevant to the story as she fought kaido the main antagonist and is also Kaido's daughter
3. she's a mythical zoan and mace user so she's unique
4. Luffy freed yamato from her cuffs, she is now free to rebel and go against kaido, I'm not counting Yamato staying with momo because nowhere in the story does it say that.
5. Yamato was both a false adversary when she was Kaido's son and is now a ally of Luffy, was also a friend of ace before
6. she wanted to sail the world with Ace back then and she still does now so she always wanted adventure she said exactly that when she knocked down Kaido's dragon stature in front of Ace.
7. and she also has a moral pillar from helping luffy by switching sides and siding with oden against kaido when she was a kid
holding off kaido
and also trying to prevent onigashima from falling and crushing the people.
Yamato score: 7/7
Even if we dismiss rule 4 like you would like, Yamato still has 6/7 points
Carrot on the other hand:
1. Carrot is alive
2. Carrot meanwhile isn't relevant to the story (but you keep saying its coming without any evidence from the manga),
3. her ability is also not unique, as her main kit is just mixture of Chopper, Nami and Sanji's abilities, she doesn't bring a single new thing that no one else in the crew doesn't already have or can't do.
4. Carrot has always been free
5.. Carrot is friend of the Straw Hats, even though its not that deep
6. Carrot wanted to go to WCI as a excursion and then come back, that's called a trip, not an adventure
7. She lied to Nekomamushi about Pedro's death at the hands of perospero, so no she dosen't have a moral pillar, she acts on her feelings.
So Carrot all together has 3/7, she doesn't meet all 7 requirements.
Going by your rules, Yamato is at 6, while Carrot is at 3. Even if we dismiss rule #2 for Carrot like you would like , that still leaves her with just 4 points, 2 points behind Yamato. And yet here you are telling me that Carrot has more points than Yamato.
Also thank you for wasting my time with this pointless 7 criteria test of yours.
- Oh boi.... i need more patience.. Help me god Usopp!!
-
- Shiet..
I have shown manga panel here, but those post are most of the time ignored lol
For the other instances, it's just a bit hard to reproduced my articles where I put dozens of manga panel here.. too much time consumming, so you will excuse me if I just tells you "go read the gosh darn blog" instead
Yeah.. I think I'm definitely speaking into the void here..
I kept explaining and explaining.. nothing is working lol
Ok.. For the LAST time:
Evidences in the storytelling can't always be explained by manga panels, most of the time .. that can only be done by an analysis.
I know it's a bit technical to understand.. but without that.. you can't understand why I'm not showing you 1000 panels.
In One Piece, like in every story like that, there are patterns those pattern are NON showable, I can't just give you a panel to make you understand it. I have to explain it to you first, THEN show you some manga panel if necessary and if it is possible.
So, for the LAST time I will explain why backstories are not a necessity in the manga:
Backstories are storytelling tools. Like foreshadowing, like Subversion dialogues, like Milking, Like dialogues etc.. It means that when you analyse a story, the important part is not the backstory in itself but HOW this tool was or is used to tell a story.
In One Piece bacstories are used (with the strawhats) to give us three major elements:
1- The character that is the core moral pillar of the strawhat (Hillulukà
2- The need of the strawhat (what the character will have to overcome in the present storyline), with Chopper, it was the need to trust the humans and therefore being able to overcome his own bad self confidence.
3- The purpose of the strawhat and the reason behind this purpose (for Chopper the reason he is so fierce with his dream his because of the teachings of Hilluluk
But like I said, backstory are just a tool. Odamostly used backstories because it's the most easiest pass to give us those elements. It's efficiant, it's fast, in other word, it's the best tool to give us those three things.
But!
It doesn't meant that backstories are the ONLY tools and way to give us those three elements. in fact, there are a lot of way to do that.
For carrot, Oda couldn't really use the backstory (Carrot being mostly happy before Zo and her arc being centered around the discovery of the sea..) so Oda used others technics.. two strong introductions, a steady construction, a swift characterization, a tragedy, a defeat etc..
By doing that, oda managed to give us:
1- The moral pillar :Pedro
2- The HINTS of a need :The need to understand the danger of the sees
3 - The HINTS of a purpose: Fighting for the minks, Pedro and a wish to see the world.
Now as you can see with Carrot here (but also with Yamato, because it's pretty much the same case) we don't have everything fully yet. We have HINTS of the needs and purpose, but those could change (unlikely), it's because the characterization of Carrot (and Yamato) is still ungoing. We need the very last part, (that happens inpretty much all the flashbacks) : the determination promise. This is the moment when the character promise something to themself (For Chopper, it's when he move the flag at the end of th FB)
But.. again... it's not something that needs to be placed in the flashback. For Carrot (and for Yamato, because she will have to do the same) it will most likely happen at the very end of Wano.
So here is why a backstory is not needed.. I don't need panels to do that, just the storytellings rules and the storytelling principles of One Piece. Of course I could give you examples of everything for each characters, but it would take hours... so yeah.. this is the next best thing. In short, the reason why all the strawhat has it, it's because it was "easy" for them and not so much for Carrot.. because that story is different.
"Probably" means "probably". It means that I'm taking a guess. Not about Carrot being recruited but WHEN Carrot will be recruited. Stop trying to absolutely prove me wrong on everything, you are just losing yourself in a semantic battle for no reasons.
THIS IS EXPLANATION BASED ON THE MANGA EINSTEIN
If I had to give you a panel everytime I mention a pattern I would have no time to sleep!
1. A character can be a side character before joining.
Why ? Because Robin is an example of that. Manga based Fact.
2. joining doesn't require to deal with the main antagonist
Why ? Because Nami and Robin dealt with their main antagonist AFTER they join. Manga based fact
3. Having a terrible past is not a rule of joining it's not even a rule for the requierement, it's only a tool to pass 3 important storytellingpoint that are NEEDED for the RECRUTMENT and NOT the JOINING.
Why ? Because Carrot didn't had a terrible flash back and she STILL joined Manga based Fact.
So those three rule for joining the crew are WRONG.. based on MANGA FACT.
What tool ?
No, Carrot will have her time THEN will be recruited. It works in that direction in One Piece. I can't prove an hypothesis dude.. What are you on? I can't prove how Carrot will be recruited I only can prove to you that she WILL. That's what I'm doing with my blog. But as you don't read it.. you can't know..
What is that nonsence ? Perospero IS responsible for Pedro death Einstein. SO there is absolutely no lie.Stop listening to Joy Boy and his crap takes on Carrot andstart understanding a little bit the story and the cahracter's mindset please.
I just proved you that they don't. EVERY strawhat are meeting those rule. Without exception.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes .. you see.. if you have read the entire thing.. you would have understood that I already stated that Yamato (like Carrot) has already everything for that first sorting. HENCE.. WHY .. she passed the first sorting system.. you just wasted time for nothing here.. just to prove me wrong..
But reading is so hard...
(that's one of the reason why I'm saying that you are blinded)
Yes she does
That's an understatement
-
- Shiet..
I have shown manga panel here, but those post are most of the time ignored lol
For the other instances, it's just a bit hard to reproduced my articles where I put dozens of manga panel here.. too much time consumming, so you will excuse me if I just tells you "go read the gosh darn blog" instead
Yeah.. I think I'm definitely speaking into the void here..
I kept explaining and explaining.. nothing is working lol
Ok.. For the LAST time:
Evidences in the storytelling can't always be explained by manga panels, most of the time .. that can only be done by an analysis.
I know it's a bit technical to understand.. but without that.. you can't understand why I'm not showing you 1000 panels.
In One Piece, like in every story like that, there are patterns those pattern are NON showable, I can't just give you a panel to make you understand it. I have to explain it to you first, THEN show you some manga panel if necessary and if it is possible.
So, for the LAST time I will explain why backstories are not a necessity in the manga:
Backstories are storytelling tools. Like foreshadowing, like Subversion dialogues, like Milking, Like dialogues etc.. It means that when you analyse a story, the important part is not the backstory in itself but HOW this tool was or is used to tell a story.
In One Piece bacstories are used (with the strawhats) to give us three major elements:
1- The character that is the core moral pillar of the strawhat (Hillulukà
2- The need of the strawhat (what the character will have to overcome in the present storyline), with Chopper, it was the need to trust the humans and therefore being able to overcome his own bad self confidence.
3- The purpose of the strawhat and the reason behind this purpose (for Chopper the reason he is so fierce with his dream his because of the teachings of Hilluluk
But like I said, backstory are just a tool. Odamostly used backstories because it's the most easiest pass to give us those elements. It's efficiant, it's fast, in other word, it's the best tool to give us those three things.
But!
It doesn't meant that backstories are the ONLY tools and way to give us those three elements. in fact, there are a lot of way to do that.
For carrot, Oda couldn't really use the backstory (Carrot being mostly happy before Zo and her arc being centered around the discovery of the sea..) so Oda used others technics.. two strong introductions, a steady construction, a swift characterization, a tragedy, a defeat etc..
By doing that, oda managed to give us:
1- The moral pillar :Pedro
2- The HINTS of a need :The need to understand the danger of the sees
3 - The HINTS of a purpose: Fighting for the minks, Pedro and a wish to see the world.
Now as you can see with Carrot here (but also with Yamato, because it's pretty much the same case) we don't have everything fully yet. We have HINTS of the needs and purpose, but those could change (unlikely), it's because the characterization of Carrot (and Yamato) is still ungoing. We need the very last part, (that happens inpretty much all the flashbacks) : the determination promise. This is the moment when the character promise something to themself (For Chopper, it's when he move the flag at the end of th FB)
But.. again... it's not something that needs to be placed in the flashback. For Carrot (and for Yamato, because she will have to do the same) it will most likely happen at the very end of Wano.
So here is why a backstory is not needed.. I don't need panels to do that, just the storytellings rules and the storytelling principles of One Piece. Of course I could give you examples of everything for each characters, but it would take hours... so yeah.. this is the next best thing. In short, the reason why all the strawhat has it, it's because it was "easy" for them and not so much for Carrot.. because that story is different.
"Probably" means "probably". It means that I'm taking a guess. Not about Carrot being recruited but WHEN Carrot will be recruited. Stop trying to absolutely prove me wrong on everything, you are just losing yourself in a semantic battle for no reasons.
THIS IS EXPLANATION BASED ON THE MANGA EINSTEIN
If I had to give you a panel everytime I mention a pattern I would have no time to sleep!
1. A character can be a side character before joining.
Why ? Because Robin is an example of that. Manga based Fact.
2. joining doesn't require to deal with the main antagonist
Why ? Because Nami and Robin dealt with their main antagonist AFTER they join. Manga based fact
3. Having a terrible past is not a rule of joining it's not even a rule for the requierement, it's only a tool to pass 3 important storytellingpoint that are NEEDED for the RECRUTMENT and NOT the JOINING.
Why ? Because Carrot didn't had a terrible flash back and she STILL joined Manga based Fact.
So those three rule for joining the crew are WRONG.. based on MANGA FACT.
What tool ?
No, Carrot will have her time THEN will be recruited. It works in that direction in One Piece. I can't prove an hypothesis dude.. What are you on? I can't prove how Carrot will be recruited I only can prove to you that she WILL. That's what I'm doing with my blog. But as you don't read it.. you can't know..
Post automatically merged:
Post automatically merged:
So you replied.
here is what your website says:
And you can see that not every straw hat managed to fit all these categories.
here is what your website says:
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story
- Be unique and have a unique ability
- Be free from faction duty or independant
- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Looking and acting toward adventure
- Have a moral Pillar
And you can see that not every straw hat managed to fit all these categories.
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story- carrot hasn't been relevant in any of the arcs she's been in. Emotional relevancy is also not the same as arc story and plot relevancy, which is more important
Wrong. Being relevant to the story means that a character has been relevant to the story, this was the case for carrot. if you think that Carrot hasn't been relevant to the story (mostly in whole cake) either you are blind and in that case I'm sorry for you.. or you read One Piece by skipping pages or third, youdon't understand a THING about the story your are actually reading. Emotionnal relevancy IS being relevant to the story you Einstein. Bordel mais j'ai vraiment l'impression de parler à des gosses là.. que quelqu'un m'aide par pitié
Wrong.. again. it's not about the different aspect of the personnality, it's what the cahracter is in it's entirerity. Luffy can also transform, but it doesn't negate CHopper's uniqueness to it. Same for Carrot who fly when sanji walk, or same for Carrot who use electro When Nami controls climat, not electricity per say. They all have a very different moveset and abilities. And your logic is applicable to all the strawhats, not only Carrot.
The question is, do a character is a good candidate. SO it means that we are talking about the FUTURE. So here you (again) didn't understand the point. Being free or independant, means that a cahracter is free or about to leave it's faction. And in the context of that question, Robin and Nami both apply to that simple rule. Next.- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Looking and acting toward adventure
What is that nonsence ? Perospero IS responsible for Pedro death Einstein. SO there is absolutely no lie.Stop listening to Joy Boy and his crap takes on Carrot andstart understanding a little bit the story and the cahracter's mindset please.
I just proved you that they don't. EVERY strawhat are meeting those rule. Without exception.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes .. you see.. if you have read the entire thing.. you would have understood that I already stated that Yamato (like Carrot) has already everything for that first sorting. HENCE.. WHY .. she passed the first sorting system.. you just wasted time for nothing here.. just to prove me wrong..
But reading is so hard...
(that's one of the reason why I'm saying that you are blinded)
Yes she does
That's an understatement
Last edited:
- Oh boi.... i need more patience.. Help me god Usopp!!
-
- Shiet..
I have shown manga panel here, but those post are most of the time ignored lol
For the other instances, it's just a bit hard to reproduced my articles where I put dozens of manga panel here.. too much time consumming, so you will excuse me if I just tells you "go read the gosh darn blog" instead.
-
- Shiet..
I have shown manga panel here, but those post are most of the time ignored lol
For the other instances, it's just a bit hard to reproduced my articles where I put dozens of manga panel here.. too much time consumming, so you will excuse me if I just tells you "go read the gosh darn blog" instead.
Yeah.. I think I'm definitely speaking into the void here..
I kept explaining and explaining.. nothing is working lol
Ok.. For the LAST time:
Evidences in the storytelling can't always be explained by manga panels, most of the time .. that can only be done by an analysis.
I know it's a bit technical to understand.. but without that.. you can't understand why I'm not showing you 1000 panels.
In One Piece, like in every story like that, there are patterns those pattern are NON showable, I can't just give you a panel to make you understand it. I have to explain it to you first, THEN show you some manga panel if necessary and if it is possible.
So, for the LAST time I will explain why backstories are not a necessity in the manga:
Backstories are storytelling tools. Like foreshadowing, like Subversion dialogues, like Milking, Like dialogues etc.. It means that when you analyse a story, the important part is not the backstory in itself but HOW this tool was or is used to tell a story.
In One Piece bacstories are used (with the strawhats) to give us three major elements:
1- The character that is the core moral pillar of the strawhat (Hillulukà
2- The need of the strawhat (what the character will have to overcome in the present storyline), with Chopper, it was the need to trust the humans and therefore being able to overcome his own bad self confidence.
3- The purpose of the strawhat and the reason behind this purpose (for Chopper the reason he is so fierce with his dream his because of the teachings of Hilluluk
But like I said, backstory are just a tool. Odamostly used backstories because it's the most easiest pass to give us those elements. It's efficiant, it's fast, in other word, it's the best tool to give us those three things.
But!
It doesn't meant that backstories are the ONLY tools and way to give us those three elements. in fact, there are a lot of way to do that.
For carrot, Oda couldn't really use the backstory (Carrot being mostly happy before Zo and her arc being centered around the discovery of the sea..) so Oda used others technics.. two strong introductions, a steady construction, a swift characterization, a tragedy, a defeat etc..
By doing that, oda managed to give us:
1- The moral pillar :Pedro
2- The HINTS of a need :The need to understand the danger of the sees
3 - The HINTS of a purpose: Fighting for the minks, Pedro and a wish to see the world.
Now as you can see with Carrot here (but also with Yamato, because it's pretty much the same case) we don't have everything fully yet. We have HINTS of the needs and purpose, but those could change (unlikely), it's because the characterization of Carrot (and Yamato) is still ungoing. We need the very last part, (that happens inpretty much all the flashbacks) : the determination promise. This is the moment when the character promise something to themself (For Chopper, it's when he move the flag at the end of th FB)
But.. again... it's not something that needs to be placed in the flashback. For Carrot (and for Yamato, because she will have to do the same) it will most likely happen at the very end of Wano.
So here is why a backstory is not needed.. I don't need panels to do that, just the storytellings rules and the storytelling principles of One Piece. Of course I could give you examples of everything for each characters, but it would take hours... so yeah.. this is the next best thing. In short, the reason why all the strawhat has it, it's because it was "easy" for them and not so much for Carrot.. because that story is different.
I kept explaining and explaining.. nothing is working lol
Ok.. For the LAST time:
Evidences in the storytelling can't always be explained by manga panels, most of the time .. that can only be done by an analysis.
I know it's a bit technical to understand.. but without that.. you can't understand why I'm not showing you 1000 panels.
In One Piece, like in every story like that, there are patterns those pattern are NON showable, I can't just give you a panel to make you understand it. I have to explain it to you first, THEN show you some manga panel if necessary and if it is possible.
So, for the LAST time I will explain why backstories are not a necessity in the manga:
Backstories are storytelling tools. Like foreshadowing, like Subversion dialogues, like Milking, Like dialogues etc.. It means that when you analyse a story, the important part is not the backstory in itself but HOW this tool was or is used to tell a story.
In One Piece bacstories are used (with the strawhats) to give us three major elements:
1- The character that is the core moral pillar of the strawhat (Hillulukà
2- The need of the strawhat (what the character will have to overcome in the present storyline), with Chopper, it was the need to trust the humans and therefore being able to overcome his own bad self confidence.
3- The purpose of the strawhat and the reason behind this purpose (for Chopper the reason he is so fierce with his dream his because of the teachings of Hilluluk
But like I said, backstory are just a tool. Odamostly used backstories because it's the most easiest pass to give us those elements. It's efficiant, it's fast, in other word, it's the best tool to give us those three things.
But!
It doesn't meant that backstories are the ONLY tools and way to give us those three elements. in fact, there are a lot of way to do that.
For carrot, Oda couldn't really use the backstory (Carrot being mostly happy before Zo and her arc being centered around the discovery of the sea..) so Oda used others technics.. two strong introductions, a steady construction, a swift characterization, a tragedy, a defeat etc..
By doing that, oda managed to give us:
1- The moral pillar :Pedro
2- The HINTS of a need :The need to understand the danger of the sees
3 - The HINTS of a purpose: Fighting for the minks, Pedro and a wish to see the world.
Now as you can see with Carrot here (but also with Yamato, because it's pretty much the same case) we don't have everything fully yet. We have HINTS of the needs and purpose, but those could change (unlikely), it's because the characterization of Carrot (and Yamato) is still ungoing. We need the very last part, (that happens inpretty much all the flashbacks) : the determination promise. This is the moment when the character promise something to themself (For Chopper, it's when he move the flag at the end of th FB)
But.. again... it's not something that needs to be placed in the flashback. For Carrot (and for Yamato, because she will have to do the same) it will most likely happen at the very end of Wano.
So here is why a backstory is not needed.. I don't need panels to do that, just the storytellings rules and the storytelling principles of One Piece. Of course I could give you examples of everything for each characters, but it would take hours... so yeah.. this is the next best thing. In short, the reason why all the strawhat has it, it's because it was "easy" for them and not so much for Carrot.. because that story is different.
I don’t need your ramblings, simply give me evidences from the manga. If you can’t, then it’s clear you have 0 points with your analysis.
Then it’s clear because you said “probably”, it means probably, that it has 50/50 possibility of not happening. No need to talk about semantic battles whatsoever.
1. Robin was a side character but she was important in Alabasta arc. She didn’t disappear most of the arc. That was also the time when Robin showed her power the first time. Meanwhile Carrot isn’t. If you say that Carrot will be recruited after Wano, then with your logic Carrot couldn’t be recruited because she’s not even a side character. Even Zeus has more spotlight than Carrot
2. yes they have their main antagonist dealt after joining, but still they have at least antagonist prior joining. Buggy for Nami, Crocodile for Robin. And that was pre-timeskip, where Oda still has much time to give real background to Nami & Robin. Give evidence from the manga where Carrot will have her antagonist later.
3. If you have deranged comprehension of joining, I can’t change stupid. If you say that it’s not important why are you hoping that Carrot will have it later AFTER joining? Aren’t you contradicting yourself here?
If you don’t have enough sleep time because you don’t have evidences from manga panels, then I pretty much missed the part where that’s my problem. You’re the one who keeps saying “Carrot has higher chance to join than Yamato” but when we ask to you give the evidences from specific manga panels, you keep doing mental gymnastics. We Yamato supporters pretty much having good & enough sleep because we have a lot of evidences toward Yamato joining. You’re the one who is so infatuated with a fictional character that it makes your mental health unstable
You said that having terrible flashback is the tool for recruitment. Are you high?
Then how she will? And when is her time? If it’s another hypothesis, better save it for yourself because it’s just another BS. It’s pretty much clear that your arguments are empty because most of them are hypothesis, theories, etc whatever you call them.
You said that you don’t do what you believe but what the story is telling you. The story is pretty clear, and you said that “Yamato is red herring for Carrot.” Which means you pretty much still do what you believe in.
If you say that people are biased toward Yamato, you involuntarily said that Oda is biased towards Yamato. Because Oda clearly shows which one he prefers.
Post automatically merged:
For the record, Carrot4nakama keeps saying us Yamato fans as children. Well, isn’t it obvious that One Piece is manga for children? If you don’t want to argue with children then simply don’t read One Piece. Read something which evaluates your brain quality
I don’t know which one is more pathetic: winning an argument against children (what a great achievement) or losing an argument against children.
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- Luffy delays the toast and Yamato is introduced in the same chapter. Kaido even says she needs to come or she'll miss the party.
- Ace wanted Yamato to join his crew after the sake they shared, but her cuffs prevented that. Luffy is here to finish everything Ace couldn't in Wano and so far, he's already removed her cuffs that stopped her from leaving.
- Chapter 999 + 1000 connection "The Sake I Brewed to Drink With You, Straw Hat Luffy"
- The delayed toast for Jinbe had all the SHs holding sake too
- Ace wanted Yamato to join his crew after the sake they shared, but her cuffs prevented that. Luffy is here to finish everything Ace couldn't in Wano and so far, he's already removed her cuffs that stopped her from leaving.
- Chapter 999 + 1000 connection "The Sake I Brewed to Drink With You, Straw Hat Luffy"
- The delayed toast for Jinbe had all the SHs holding sake too
Sorry for the delay. Been busy with irl stuff.
First off, I disagree that training on Zou goes against her entire characterization. Yes, her theme is wonder, but that wonder is based on naivety. She looks at everything with womder because she has lived a sheltered life and hasn't seen the world outside of Zou. This is also seen when she packs food only for one day, and it ties in with your point about Carrot's crisis being "how can the sea be a wonderland if I lose friends on it". You say this crisis will be adressed by Carrot joining the crew, but I disagree. That does not show a growth in maturity, or an understanding that the sea is also dangerous.
You say that Carrot lost to Peros because of luck, but that isn't true. This line gets mistranslated all the time by Carrot fans. In the fan translation, it sounds as if he is saying they would have beaten him if the clouds didn't take away their transformations, but in the official, it is clear that he is mocking them for having such an unreliable powerup that can be negated by a simple cloudy night. Carrot and Wanda were never going to win that fight. That's also why Peros had no visible signs of damage until Neko.
All of this is to say that the growth Carrot needs is responsibility. She's stronger than the weak trio, so strength is not the issue. But she is reckless and naive. She didn't prepare properly for the trip. She didn't anticipate losing friends. She rushed into a battle she had no chance in. This is all for a reason.
As far as the argument that Peros can't be right, I think you are looking at this as too black and white. Peros is wrong about what Carrot should do, but he is right that she is not ready for the new world. This is clearly shown several times, as I mentioned before. This is common in well written stories. The villains are not always wrong, and the heroes aren't always right. The villain calls the hero out on real flaws they have, forcing the hero to look inward, and often do something they don't want to do in order to overcome their flaws.
If Carrot's next move is to sneak on board a ship going off to fight yonkos, then what has she learned? Nothing. She's repeating the same mistake. What character growth would look like is doing something she doesn't want to do (going back to zou to improve herself under the guidance of Wando and/or the dukes) in order to overcome her flaws and return later for her shining moment. This is the same lesson Luffy had to learn at Marineford. This path is much better writing than having her learn nothing from her defeat and continuing on the same as always. Defeats should always mean something to the heroes. If she came back and proved him wrong by winning the batgle despite the odds, it would be different.
Yamato, on the other hand, does have to sail away to be true to her character. This has been her dream since she was 8 years old, and she declared it many times. These declarartions are a big deal in one piece. If Carrot framed her desire to go out to sea as a dramatic declaration, we would be having a different discussion. Her whole story is about being held captive and dreaming of sailing away. This can't be resolved by staying in the same place she was shackled, even if she's no longer forced to be there. Her dream is to sail away and get stronger, specifically with Luffy, and her idol Oden did the same thing. Yes she bonded with momo, but that didn't change her mind as she declared it again after leaving him. The other core of her character is being isolated and not having friends or family. Gee, where have we seen that before? The strawhats are perfect to solve that issue, just like they did for Robin. This also solves the issue of Yamato pushing her way into Kinemon's position, which would be completely unjustified.
To me the greater context seems to point to Yamato. You can disagree, but it's not fair to claim that viewpoint is based on bias.
First off, I disagree that training on Zou goes against her entire characterization. Yes, her theme is wonder, but that wonder is based on naivety. She looks at everything with womder because she has lived a sheltered life and hasn't seen the world outside of Zou. This is also seen when she packs food only for one day, and it ties in with your point about Carrot's crisis being "how can the sea be a wonderland if I lose friends on it". You say this crisis will be adressed by Carrot joining the crew, but I disagree. That does not show a growth in maturity, or an understanding that the sea is also dangerous.
You say that Carrot lost to Peros because of luck, but that isn't true. This line gets mistranslated all the time by Carrot fans. In the fan translation, it sounds as if he is saying they would have beaten him if the clouds didn't take away their transformations, but in the official, it is clear that he is mocking them for having such an unreliable powerup that can be negated by a simple cloudy night. Carrot and Wanda were never going to win that fight. That's also why Peros had no visible signs of damage until Neko.
All of this is to say that the growth Carrot needs is responsibility. She's stronger than the weak trio, so strength is not the issue. But she is reckless and naive. She didn't prepare properly for the trip. She didn't anticipate losing friends. She rushed into a battle she had no chance in. This is all for a reason.
As far as the argument that Peros can't be right, I think you are looking at this as too black and white. Peros is wrong about what Carrot should do, but he is right that she is not ready for the new world. This is clearly shown several times, as I mentioned before. This is common in well written stories. The villains are not always wrong, and the heroes aren't always right. The villain calls the hero out on real flaws they have, forcing the hero to look inward, and often do something they don't want to do in order to overcome their flaws.
If Carrot's next move is to sneak on board a ship going off to fight yonkos, then what has she learned? Nothing. She's repeating the same mistake. What character growth would look like is doing something she doesn't want to do (going back to zou to improve herself under the guidance of Wando and/or the dukes) in order to overcome her flaws and return later for her shining moment. This is the same lesson Luffy had to learn at Marineford. This path is much better writing than having her learn nothing from her defeat and continuing on the same as always. Defeats should always mean something to the heroes. If she came back and proved him wrong by winning the batgle despite the odds, it would be different.
Yamato, on the other hand, does have to sail away to be true to her character. This has been her dream since she was 8 years old, and she declared it many times. These declarartions are a big deal in one piece. If Carrot framed her desire to go out to sea as a dramatic declaration, we would be having a different discussion. Her whole story is about being held captive and dreaming of sailing away. This can't be resolved by staying in the same place she was shackled, even if she's no longer forced to be there. Her dream is to sail away and get stronger, specifically with Luffy, and her idol Oden did the same thing. Yes she bonded with momo, but that didn't change her mind as she declared it again after leaving him. The other core of her character is being isolated and not having friends or family. Gee, where have we seen that before? The strawhats are perfect to solve that issue, just like they did for Robin. This also solves the issue of Yamato pushing her way into Kinemon's position, which would be completely unjustified.
To me the greater context seems to point to Yamato. You can disagree, but it's not fair to claim that viewpoint is based on bias.
The complete theory | Carrot For Nakama
I read your blog, and here are my issues with it.
Thematic incarnation- obvious the theme for Yamato is Yamato representation the importance of inherited will. That carrying the dream and wishes of Oden of opening Wano's borders, even though Oden only relayed this mission for the 9 Scarabs and not Yamato.
Yamato represents Oden's will of freeing Wano, by taking on kaido and helping the alliance in Oden's place as he is already passed away.
At this point Yamato and Carrot should be at the same 10 points
A challenge and a choice- here is more of your bias bullshit. Carrot only has to face the reality of the seas (whatever that means) and accept Pedro's death, while Yamato is taking a literal gamble with her life in trying to overthrow Kaido. She is risking her whole life and future on Luffy's victory and Kaido's defeat. If Luffy loses Yamato loses her freedom forever and Kaido literally admitted and said to her that he was actively trying to kill Yamato in their 1v1 fight because Yamato was pretending to be Oden.
As far as importance goes both Momo and Yamato should get more points than Carrot, as they were in the danger of real death in the Wano Arc from kaido himself, while Carrot is in no such danger. Even being defeated by Perospero he still left them alone.
Momo should get 4 points, Yamato 3 points and Carrot 0 points here if we're be serious
That brings us to Marco 5, Momo 14, Yamato 13, Carrot 10 points
A special bond- more bias. The meeting between Yamato and Luffy in the attic where they talk about Ace is not included here? Yamato gets 2 points here not 1
A point also needs to be removed from carrot for a great time spent with the crew, and a point removed interaction with the crew. Because Carrot hasn't officially joined yet despite being with them for more than 1 and a half arcs. That is an unfair advantage that NO other straw hat can claim, since no straw hat before joining interacted with the crew more than one Arc before joining like Carrot. Carrot only gets 1 points here not 3.
After this change that brings us to Marco 6, Tama 7, momo 13, Yamato 13, Carrot 11
A Nakama need - omission of facts. Yamato wants to sail the world even before she read Oden journal, as she told the samurai in the prison. Carrot following Pedro's will is still Pedro's will, its on the behalf of someone else and not solely her own. Without Pedro, Carrot has no reason nor desire to help the straw hats reach Raftel. Every straw hats desires were their own desires, even Zoro wanted to become the strongest swordsman before Kunia died ( a common misconception). Also, at no point in the story did Carrot ever consider the need to prove herself, she succeeded and failed however she liked. She also didn't prove herself when she got captured by brulee and she didn't prove herself any other time when she was faced by Big Mom and her crew. Sulong Carrot only happened because of convenience and the availability of the moon. The only person getting 5 points here is Jinbe, Jinbe put his own life and crew on the line to prove himself. Carrot doesn't even come close here. Yamato should get the full 5 points and Carrot 3 points.
After this change that brings us to Marco 7, Tama 8, Momo 15, Yamato 17, Carrot 14
The Post- okay this whole point here is intentional and selective. Carrot only has a post because she was on the ship before joining to demonstrate. No other straw hat has the liberty to demonstrate their skills on the sunny before joining. You're also omitting the fact that the Wano arc isn't over so Yamato still has time to show us what her post could be. Jinbe didn't reveal his helmsman skills until the very end of the Impel Down Arc when he sailed a warship. Yamato still has until the end of the Wano Arc to show how she can be useful in the crew. The Post requirement should be postponed until the end of the Arc. As such no candidate should be getting a point here, and should wait until the end of the arc to review the candidates post roles.
Nothing changes as no one gets a point so its still Marco 7, Tama 8, momo 15, Yamato 17, and Carrot 14
The Shining Nakama Action- okay just like the Post the whole point here is intentional and selective. Some of the straw hats weren't able to display their shining Nakama action through their actions until a ship was involved. Like jinbe didn't show his incredible skills in helmsmanship of Sailing the Sunny in the whirlpool and Green Room until the end of the WCI Arc. Even in Impel Down, Jinbe only showed normal and average sailing skills with nothing unique, special or shining about it, and even that happened at the end of the Impel Down Arc . If Yamato does have a shining nakama action to perform on a ship, then she can't do that yet as no ships are available on a floating Onigashima Island. This point should be postponed until the end of the arc.
Nothing changes here as no one gets a point so it's still Marco 7, Tama 8, Momo 15, Yamato 17, and Carrot 14
17 points > 14 points. Yamato has 3 more points than Carrot, Yamato wins.
As for the other stuff:
The Case of Yamato
The Resect of Luffy- Yamato respects Luffy, she doesn't admire him. It's not to the point of obsessive admiration since Yamato didn't always follow Luffy's orders when he asked her to. She tried attacking Kaido in the banquet hall when Luffy told her not to, she didn't diligently protect Momo like Luffy told her to and Momo and Shinobu almost died because of that. She started fighting kaido all by herself without waiting for Luffy to come back up. She still wanted to fight kaido until Luffy told her that he wanted to fight Kaido 1v1 instead. Yamato respects Luffy and only agrees to help Luffy unless Luffy explicitly asks her out loud. Yamato is just as rebellious as Sanji, doing his own for the most of the time, until they had to step in without a choice. Like Yamato stepping to fight kaido in Luffy's place when he was gone, and Sanji only coming in and lending a hand when Luffy was drowning. That's not admiration.
The Heritage of Oden and kaido- your saying Kaido's lineage doesn't matter, except the recruitment pattern is as the seas get stronger, they also recruit stronger crewmembers. Carrot can't compare to Jinbe, the first recruit of the new world, but Yamato can. Because of this the heritage of Kaido matters. It's also false to say that Luffy doesn't recruit people because they are strong, Zoro the first crewmate recruited was recruited because Luffy heard Zoro was a strong and impressive swordsman. And Zoro is also hinted to be related to Shimotsuki Ushimaru, so lineage is perfectly acceptable. Sanji is a Vinsmoke and he's still staying on the crew. This argument is worthless.
The parallel with Oden-
Point 1- How is this even an argument? Yamato doesn't need to be the one deciphering poneglyphs when joining the crew. Your also forgetting parental heritages in this discussion, Yamato still has the apprentice role open just like her father. Also, Carrot still has Pedro's other occupation open for her, and that is being an ally to help push the crew forward and not join the crew. At the end of Wano, Carrot can stay behind and sacrifice herself for the straw hats by dying and fighting against CP0, just like Pedro sacrificed himself and stay behind in WCI.
Point 2- Parallelism does exist, you're just denying it. Yamato can join Luffy's crew since Oden joined Roger's crew. On the other hand, Carrot can't join Luffy's crew because Pedro never joined Roger's crew. You dismiss parallelism because it doesn't work in Carrot's favor.
Point 3-pure speculation that you pulled out of your ass. You even said so in the paragraph yourself. It doesn't count and I don't even need to debunk this one.
Time Spent with Luffy-
Robin was able to join at the end of the Alabasta Arc, despite their short interactions in the arc, and Yamato and Luffy's interactions in Wano so far have already surpassed that.
Nakama naming test-
Luffy only calls Yamato Yamao because he thinks Yamato wants be identified as a man. The same as the O in O Kiku. The nakama naming test was already debunked ages ago and your still bringing this crap up.
The Demand-
Yamato asked luffy to join his crew, it's not called a demand, it's called a request, so it's perfectly fine. Yamato only asked Luffy once, and never pushed him further. Carrot pushed Luffy and Pedro more when she refused to get off the Sunny. She demanded and begged to stay on the ship.
Subversion Dialogue-
Another meaningless point. Subversion of expectations are the worst arguments that are never respected and taken seriously, and neither should this one. Big Mom die in WCI was also another subversion of expectations that never happened. They never work.
Many parts of your Carrot for Nakama Complete Theory has many holes in it. Thank you for wasting my time, i'm done here, goodbye and good night.
I read your blog, and here are my issues with it.
Thematic incarnation- obvious the theme for Yamato is Yamato representation the importance of inherited will. That carrying the dream and wishes of Oden of opening Wano's borders, even though Oden only relayed this mission for the 9 Scarabs and not Yamato.
Yamato represents Oden's will of freeing Wano, by taking on kaido and helping the alliance in Oden's place as he is already passed away.
At this point Yamato and Carrot should be at the same 10 points
A challenge and a choice- here is more of your bias bullshit. Carrot only has to face the reality of the seas (whatever that means) and accept Pedro's death, while Yamato is taking a literal gamble with her life in trying to overthrow Kaido. She is risking her whole life and future on Luffy's victory and Kaido's defeat. If Luffy loses Yamato loses her freedom forever and Kaido literally admitted and said to her that he was actively trying to kill Yamato in their 1v1 fight because Yamato was pretending to be Oden.
As far as importance goes both Momo and Yamato should get more points than Carrot, as they were in the danger of real death in the Wano Arc from kaido himself, while Carrot is in no such danger. Even being defeated by Perospero he still left them alone.
Momo should get 4 points, Yamato 3 points and Carrot 0 points here if we're be serious
That brings us to Marco 5, Momo 14, Yamato 13, Carrot 10 points
A special bond- more bias. The meeting between Yamato and Luffy in the attic where they talk about Ace is not included here? Yamato gets 2 points here not 1
A point also needs to be removed from carrot for a great time spent with the crew, and a point removed interaction with the crew. Because Carrot hasn't officially joined yet despite being with them for more than 1 and a half arcs. That is an unfair advantage that NO other straw hat can claim, since no straw hat before joining interacted with the crew more than one Arc before joining like Carrot. Carrot only gets 1 points here not 3.
After this change that brings us to Marco 6, Tama 7, momo 13, Yamato 13, Carrot 11
A Nakama need - omission of facts. Yamato wants to sail the world even before she read Oden journal, as she told the samurai in the prison. Carrot following Pedro's will is still Pedro's will, its on the behalf of someone else and not solely her own. Without Pedro, Carrot has no reason nor desire to help the straw hats reach Raftel. Every straw hats desires were their own desires, even Zoro wanted to become the strongest swordsman before Kunia died ( a common misconception). Also, at no point in the story did Carrot ever consider the need to prove herself, she succeeded and failed however she liked. She also didn't prove herself when she got captured by brulee and she didn't prove herself any other time when she was faced by Big Mom and her crew. Sulong Carrot only happened because of convenience and the availability of the moon. The only person getting 5 points here is Jinbe, Jinbe put his own life and crew on the line to prove himself. Carrot doesn't even come close here. Yamato should get the full 5 points and Carrot 3 points.
After this change that brings us to Marco 7, Tama 8, Momo 15, Yamato 17, Carrot 14
The Post- okay this whole point here is intentional and selective. Carrot only has a post because she was on the ship before joining to demonstrate. No other straw hat has the liberty to demonstrate their skills on the sunny before joining. You're also omitting the fact that the Wano arc isn't over so Yamato still has time to show us what her post could be. Jinbe didn't reveal his helmsman skills until the very end of the Impel Down Arc when he sailed a warship. Yamato still has until the end of the Wano Arc to show how she can be useful in the crew. The Post requirement should be postponed until the end of the Arc. As such no candidate should be getting a point here, and should wait until the end of the arc to review the candidates post roles.
Nothing changes as no one gets a point so its still Marco 7, Tama 8, momo 15, Yamato 17, and Carrot 14
The Shining Nakama Action- okay just like the Post the whole point here is intentional and selective. Some of the straw hats weren't able to display their shining Nakama action through their actions until a ship was involved. Like jinbe didn't show his incredible skills in helmsmanship of Sailing the Sunny in the whirlpool and Green Room until the end of the WCI Arc. Even in Impel Down, Jinbe only showed normal and average sailing skills with nothing unique, special or shining about it, and even that happened at the end of the Impel Down Arc . If Yamato does have a shining nakama action to perform on a ship, then she can't do that yet as no ships are available on a floating Onigashima Island. This point should be postponed until the end of the arc.
Nothing changes here as no one gets a point so it's still Marco 7, Tama 8, Momo 15, Yamato 17, and Carrot 14
17 points > 14 points. Yamato has 3 more points than Carrot, Yamato wins.
As for the other stuff:
The Case of Yamato
The Resect of Luffy- Yamato respects Luffy, she doesn't admire him. It's not to the point of obsessive admiration since Yamato didn't always follow Luffy's orders when he asked her to. She tried attacking Kaido in the banquet hall when Luffy told her not to, she didn't diligently protect Momo like Luffy told her to and Momo and Shinobu almost died because of that. She started fighting kaido all by herself without waiting for Luffy to come back up. She still wanted to fight kaido until Luffy told her that he wanted to fight Kaido 1v1 instead. Yamato respects Luffy and only agrees to help Luffy unless Luffy explicitly asks her out loud. Yamato is just as rebellious as Sanji, doing his own for the most of the time, until they had to step in without a choice. Like Yamato stepping to fight kaido in Luffy's place when he was gone, and Sanji only coming in and lending a hand when Luffy was drowning. That's not admiration.
The Heritage of Oden and kaido- your saying Kaido's lineage doesn't matter, except the recruitment pattern is as the seas get stronger, they also recruit stronger crewmembers. Carrot can't compare to Jinbe, the first recruit of the new world, but Yamato can. Because of this the heritage of Kaido matters. It's also false to say that Luffy doesn't recruit people because they are strong, Zoro the first crewmate recruited was recruited because Luffy heard Zoro was a strong and impressive swordsman. And Zoro is also hinted to be related to Shimotsuki Ushimaru, so lineage is perfectly acceptable. Sanji is a Vinsmoke and he's still staying on the crew. This argument is worthless.
The parallel with Oden-
Point 1- How is this even an argument? Yamato doesn't need to be the one deciphering poneglyphs when joining the crew. Your also forgetting parental heritages in this discussion, Yamato still has the apprentice role open just like her father. Also, Carrot still has Pedro's other occupation open for her, and that is being an ally to help push the crew forward and not join the crew. At the end of Wano, Carrot can stay behind and sacrifice herself for the straw hats by dying and fighting against CP0, just like Pedro sacrificed himself and stay behind in WCI.
Point 2- Parallelism does exist, you're just denying it. Yamato can join Luffy's crew since Oden joined Roger's crew. On the other hand, Carrot can't join Luffy's crew because Pedro never joined Roger's crew. You dismiss parallelism because it doesn't work in Carrot's favor.
Point 3-pure speculation that you pulled out of your ass. You even said so in the paragraph yourself. It doesn't count and I don't even need to debunk this one.
Time Spent with Luffy-
Robin was able to join at the end of the Alabasta Arc, despite their short interactions in the arc, and Yamato and Luffy's interactions in Wano so far have already surpassed that.
Nakama naming test-
Luffy only calls Yamato Yamao because he thinks Yamato wants be identified as a man. The same as the O in O Kiku. The nakama naming test was already debunked ages ago and your still bringing this crap up.
The Demand-
Yamato asked luffy to join his crew, it's not called a demand, it's called a request, so it's perfectly fine. Yamato only asked Luffy once, and never pushed him further. Carrot pushed Luffy and Pedro more when she refused to get off the Sunny. She demanded and begged to stay on the ship.
Subversion Dialogue-
Another meaningless point. Subversion of expectations are the worst arguments that are never respected and taken seriously, and neither should this one. Big Mom die in WCI was also another subversion of expectations that never happened. They never work.
Many parts of your Carrot for Nakama Complete Theory has many holes in it. Thank you for wasting my time, i'm done here, goodbye and good night.
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This reminds me of the alcohol problem the crew had prior to them entering Onigashima... And since you have mentioned 999 + 1000, the official channel uploaded a video before Episode 1000 with single frames from each episodes, 999 has Yamato and 1000 has the SHs... Coincidence, yes, but still an interesting easter egg...
Without good referencing, I know for a fact that the panels won't get checked and that I will be called a liar. So my only good option is to reproduce my articles and add the pics with it, already done it, but for some (one mostly) article, no can do, too long.
No, some things can only be explained. Of course I can show you some panels to "illustrate" my arguments, but when the core of the argumentation resides in something that is invisible to the eyes the only solution is a good explanation.
So ok... i'll do my best to give manga panels as much as possible, but you need to understand that it not always possible. Because if you don't accept the simple fact that the storytelling is something that run BEHIND the curtain, we won't go anywhere.
Yup that what are hypothesis. Probable. Once they become more probable and consistant, I call them theories.
Carrot didn't dissapeared either, she is still here, she is still part of the story, she only has a lesser role in it. Don't twist my word for the love of usopp.. this is meaningless, you know I can catch you everytime.. sceptic, remember ?
My rule is clear: the character has to be relevant to the story: meaning that they have to be part of the story and have had in the ENTIRE story a good amount of panel time. No one but you are you acolytes are saying that this must only be focused on Wano.. so please.. listen to what I say.. take a deep breath, accept the fact that you can't prove me wrong on this, stop trying to twist my word and argumentation and move on!
Like I said I'm a sceptic i already tried to prove my point wrong, at the beginning, there were actually more than that. But the work is done now
Now that's a good point I'm willing to listen. Indeed all the girls have technically their antagonist prior joining BUT you forget a thing:
Antagonists are only setup just before their introductions meaning that we can't know about the antagonist until the very moment the story of the chararacter "re"start. For Nami, it's the moment when she sees Arlong's poster and for Robin, it's the arrival of CP9 in Water seven. So that logic stays the same for Carrot : an antagonist could be introduced based on her story at ANY moment after Wano. Until we are introduced to it, anything can happen and Carrot can't be ruled out. (See.. here only by logic based on the story, I can give you that principle, no need for manga panel)
A bit more respect with my coffee please!
My definition of "joining" is very clear thanks. Yes Carrot will deal will most likely deal with her antagonist after Wano. Even tho I changed my mind a bit today about that.. In fact I think we can indeed consider Perospero as Carrot antagonist, but it's just not someone she will have to face, she will deal with his ideology indirectly. I'm saying that because Antagonist in One Piece are not usually defeated by the characters themself but by other.. it can be strawhats or others.. Brook's antagonist (Ryuma) was - for example - defeated by Zoro. Brook only resolved his personnal conflict after that. By himself.
Yes Carrot has higher chances than Yamato and I only need one panel for that. This panel has the strenght to be self sufficient. It's litterally ALL you should need to prove the point of Carrot. But.. seems like even manga panels proofs are not enough for the likes of you.
No, I never said that. You must have missunderstood my argument.
I said that Flashbacks are tool.. yes.
I said that they are used to give us the necessary elements needed for the recruitment.. yes..
But NOT that "having terrible flashback is the tool for recruitment." (plus this sentence doesn't mean anything)
I truly don't know how Carrot will be recruited, their are so many possibilities that even trying to make hypothesis would be meaningless, it's too soon. I only know she will.
Yeah, I should be more specific with that, because this is kinda no incomplete. If Yamato is indeed a red hearring for Carrot, it DOESN'T MEAN that she was created to be one. I don't think that she was created to be a red hearing. BUT she is USED as a one for Carrot by Oda right now so, technically.. she is a red hearing.That is what the construction of the story tells me.
Lol.. yeah.. about that.. you should compared the way Oda draws Carrot in Sulong VS the way Oda draws Yamato in her form. it's pretty telling which one he prefers xD
No, #NotAllYamatoFans (lmao), only those who are making me repeat 100 time the same things, that are twisting my words, and that laughs when they are provided with clear analysis.
I suspect Oda to treat his audience equally, meaning that he put as much efforts at surprising adults and children. if you think that One Piece and Oda are not here to twist your brain, then you didn't read One Piece.
Wrong.
Yamato only meets the requirement of the first sorting (the seven rules), Yamato lacks a bit of things to be considered a potential Nakama (The 10+1 Pillars)
Check this page (link to my blog), and you will see that Yamato is actually making quite a run. She is just missing the most important things to be considered a future strawhat (the post and it's introduction/The Nakama shining action mostly). And that's only on the elements of the list of the Ten Pillar, as you can see with those 6 arguments in the writing itself, she lacks a lot more things.
Does this mean that Yamato can't be a strawhat ? No, she could but it would need a lot of writing by Oda and a backflip in term of characterization. (but it's still possible, just less likely than Carrot)
You have missunderstood what the "thematic incarnation" really is. But it might be my bad, it was a short explaination.
"A thematic incarnation adds weight to the character's desires and is a reminder serving the main character: Luffy. This incarnation is highlighted thanks to the actions and the character's personnality traits"
Basically a thematic incarnation must be something very important to KEEP during the adventure (I should've started with that, I'll add it) that's what I mean by "reminder serving the main character", a thematic incarnation represent something that Oda view as very important to bring with the crew on the ship. It's a quality, something important. And the reason it's so clear like "wonder" or "Honor" it's because those qualities are directely shown IN the story either with the action or the dialogue of the characters. That's why you can see Carrot repeating the word "wonder" each time she is in awe for the world around her : Oda wants us to understand that this is her best quality and the best thing that she can bring to the crew.
So no, the inherited will is not a thematic incarnation, it's a theme. Don't get me wrong it could end up on a good "thematic incarnation" for Yamato in the end, but we wil have to see more to judge.
Ok so here you are talking about the sixth Pillar - the strong character arc.
I'm explaining that the character must face a challenge and ultimately make a choice.
So here I will try to explain clearly that choice of giving Yamato 2 point and Carrot three point (And Momo 4 point)
First you have to understand what is a character arc. For that, I can't explain it here, you will have to read some book about the creation of story, the "hero's Journey" is a good place to start. I'll just summarize it: Basically when a character is thrown into adventure, he must face a challenge at the end of this challenge, this character will be tested, this test will most likely consist in a choice between two options. This is a reccurent scheme that happens in every stories even the most experimental ones. One Piece is not an exception.
That's why, for each chararacter arc (a character can have multiple character arc in One Piece) the character will be faced with a challenge (staying with Big Mom and facing the hostage situation of his dad for Sanji) and at the end.. a choice (Risking the life of his friend and telling the truth to Sanji or keeping the status co to save his dad for sanji)
The character arc of sanji here is an exemple of BIG character arc. Those only happens once per arc. Most of the time the character arcs in One Piece are smaller. Carrot - for example - passed through a small character. Grieving Pedro, she made the choice to act for the strawhats and accept Pedro's death (hence was born 888) this was a specific choice, but this was a bit too small for a good cahracter arc, that's why Carrot only gets three points. On the contrary, Momo was given a much bigger character arc. Faced with the challenge of Kaido.. Momo had to choose between lying and staying alive and staying true to his family and claim is rightfull name. By saying "I'm Kozuki Momonosuke,and I will be the shogun of Wano" Momo ended his character arc prepared since Punk hazard. That's why Momo gets all the points here.
Now we arrive to Yamato, for her the thing is that she is INDEED faced with a challenge, she must protect Wano.. but she has YET to be faced with a real defining choice.
The moment Yamato will be faced with a choice as strong as Momo or even as small as Carrot's, I will give her one or even two points without problem.
So no, for now, the points will stays the same.
No, the meeting between Luffy and Yamato is not included. Why ? Because this meeting is only important in significance for the readers and not for Luffy
And no I won't remove a point for Carrot. Carrot DID spenta lot of time with the crew, it's an UNDENIABLE fact same for the interactioN. And if you have trouble understanding why, reread whole cake and check the interactions of Carrot and the crew. I won't move on that points.
Yes there is an unfair advantage for Carrot.. that's what I'm trying to scream to you since the beginning. Remember, betweenthe beginning of Zo and whole cake, there is probably month. That's more than enough.
plus Carrot is not the one with the most point here, I was VERY fair with that point. It's not my fault if Yamato still had a LOT to prove.
Still no
Still no.
Here it's not because of me, but because you don't understand what a need and a purpose. Frankly I explain that enough here so you will have to check for that.
No, it's a necessity. You can't be a strawhat crewmate without a post on the Sunny.
Still no.
That's your headcanon. and yes Yamato COULD be introduced with a capacity for a post, and show that post.. She could.. But it's more than unlikely as those introductions (as I explained clearly in my blog) usually come very early. Thinking that Oda drew Carrot at the look out post only to "demonstrate" for no reasons(demonstrate what?) is foolish and best.. disrespectfull at worst lol
Okay I will stop that with that post.. I'm lagging to much. See you in the next.
No, some things can only be explained. Of course I can show you some panels to "illustrate" my arguments, but when the core of the argumentation resides in something that is invisible to the eyes the only solution is a good explanation.
So ok... i'll do my best to give manga panels as much as possible, but you need to understand that it not always possible. Because if you don't accept the simple fact that the storytelling is something that run BEHIND the curtain, we won't go anywhere.
Yup that what are hypothesis. Probable. Once they become more probable and consistant, I call them theories.
Carrot didn't dissapeared either, she is still here, she is still part of the story, she only has a lesser role in it. Don't twist my word for the love of usopp.. this is meaningless, you know I can catch you everytime.. sceptic, remember ?
My rule is clear: the character has to be relevant to the story: meaning that they have to be part of the story and have had in the ENTIRE story a good amount of panel time. No one but you are you acolytes are saying that this must only be focused on Wano.. so please.. listen to what I say.. take a deep breath, accept the fact that you can't prove me wrong on this, stop trying to twist my word and argumentation and move on!
Like I said I'm a sceptic i already tried to prove my point wrong, at the beginning, there were actually more than that. But the work is done now
Now that's a good point I'm willing to listen. Indeed all the girls have technically their antagonist prior joining BUT you forget a thing:
Antagonists are only setup just before their introductions meaning that we can't know about the antagonist until the very moment the story of the chararacter "re"start. For Nami, it's the moment when she sees Arlong's poster and for Robin, it's the arrival of CP9 in Water seven. So that logic stays the same for Carrot : an antagonist could be introduced based on her story at ANY moment after Wano. Until we are introduced to it, anything can happen and Carrot can't be ruled out. (See.. here only by logic based on the story, I can give you that principle, no need for manga panel)
A bit more respect with my coffee please!
My definition of "joining" is very clear thanks. Yes Carrot will deal will most likely deal with her antagonist after Wano. Even tho I changed my mind a bit today about that.. In fact I think we can indeed consider Perospero as Carrot antagonist, but it's just not someone she will have to face, she will deal with his ideology indirectly. I'm saying that because Antagonist in One Piece are not usually defeated by the characters themself but by other.. it can be strawhats or others.. Brook's antagonist (Ryuma) was - for example - defeated by Zoro. Brook only resolved his personnal conflict after that. By himself.
Yes Carrot has higher chances than Yamato and I only need one panel for that. This panel has the strenght to be self sufficient. It's litterally ALL you should need to prove the point of Carrot. But.. seems like even manga panels proofs are not enough for the likes of you.
No, I never said that. You must have missunderstood my argument.
I said that Flashbacks are tool.. yes.
I said that they are used to give us the necessary elements needed for the recruitment.. yes..
But NOT that "having terrible flashback is the tool for recruitment." (plus this sentence doesn't mean anything)
I truly don't know how Carrot will be recruited, their are so many possibilities that even trying to make hypothesis would be meaningless, it's too soon. I only know she will.
Yeah, I should be more specific with that, because this is kinda no incomplete. If Yamato is indeed a red hearring for Carrot, it DOESN'T MEAN that she was created to be one. I don't think that she was created to be a red hearing. BUT she is USED as a one for Carrot by Oda right now so, technically.. she is a red hearing.That is what the construction of the story tells me.
Lol.. yeah.. about that.. you should compared the way Oda draws Carrot in Sulong VS the way Oda draws Yamato in her form. it's pretty telling which one he prefers xD
No, #NotAllYamatoFans (lmao), only those who are making me repeat 100 time the same things, that are twisting my words, and that laughs when they are provided with clear analysis.
I suspect Oda to treat his audience equally, meaning that he put as much efforts at surprising adults and children. if you think that One Piece and Oda are not here to twist your brain, then you didn't read One Piece.
According to your website, Yamato meets all the requirements, the only thing that Yamato doesn't have is being introduced into the Wano Arc early enough. Its a point that a lot of people already told you is irrelevant and doesn't affect Yamato anyway.
Yamato only meets the requirement of the first sorting (the seven rules), Yamato lacks a bit of things to be considered a potential Nakama (The 10+1 Pillars)
Check this page (link to my blog), and you will see that Yamato is actually making quite a run. She is just missing the most important things to be considered a future strawhat (the post and it's introduction/The Nakama shining action mostly). And that's only on the elements of the list of the Ten Pillar, as you can see with those 6 arguments in the writing itself, she lacks a lot more things.
Does this mean that Yamato can't be a strawhat ? No, she could but it would need a lot of writing by Oda and a backflip in term of characterization. (but it's still possible, just less likely than Carrot)
You have missunderstood what the "thematic incarnation" really is. But it might be my bad, it was a short explaination.
"A thematic incarnation adds weight to the character's desires and is a reminder serving the main character: Luffy. This incarnation is highlighted thanks to the actions and the character's personnality traits"
Basically a thematic incarnation must be something very important to KEEP during the adventure (I should've started with that, I'll add it) that's what I mean by "reminder serving the main character", a thematic incarnation represent something that Oda view as very important to bring with the crew on the ship. It's a quality, something important. And the reason it's so clear like "wonder" or "Honor" it's because those qualities are directely shown IN the story either with the action or the dialogue of the characters. That's why you can see Carrot repeating the word "wonder" each time she is in awe for the world around her : Oda wants us to understand that this is her best quality and the best thing that she can bring to the crew.
So no, the inherited will is not a thematic incarnation, it's a theme. Don't get me wrong it could end up on a good "thematic incarnation" for Yamato in the end, but we wil have to see more to judge.
Ok so here you are talking about the sixth Pillar - the strong character arc.
I'm explaining that the character must face a challenge and ultimately make a choice.
So here I will try to explain clearly that choice of giving Yamato 2 point and Carrot three point (And Momo 4 point)
First you have to understand what is a character arc. For that, I can't explain it here, you will have to read some book about the creation of story, the "hero's Journey" is a good place to start. I'll just summarize it: Basically when a character is thrown into adventure, he must face a challenge at the end of this challenge, this character will be tested, this test will most likely consist in a choice between two options. This is a reccurent scheme that happens in every stories even the most experimental ones. One Piece is not an exception.
That's why, for each chararacter arc (a character can have multiple character arc in One Piece) the character will be faced with a challenge (staying with Big Mom and facing the hostage situation of his dad for Sanji) and at the end.. a choice (Risking the life of his friend and telling the truth to Sanji or keeping the status co to save his dad for sanji)
The character arc of sanji here is an exemple of BIG character arc. Those only happens once per arc. Most of the time the character arcs in One Piece are smaller. Carrot - for example - passed through a small character. Grieving Pedro, she made the choice to act for the strawhats and accept Pedro's death (hence was born 888) this was a specific choice, but this was a bit too small for a good cahracter arc, that's why Carrot only gets three points. On the contrary, Momo was given a much bigger character arc. Faced with the challenge of Kaido.. Momo had to choose between lying and staying alive and staying true to his family and claim is rightfull name. By saying "I'm Kozuki Momonosuke,and I will be the shogun of Wano" Momo ended his character arc prepared since Punk hazard. That's why Momo gets all the points here.
Now we arrive to Yamato, for her the thing is that she is INDEED faced with a challenge, she must protect Wano.. but she has YET to be faced with a real defining choice.
The moment Yamato will be faced with a choice as strong as Momo or even as small as Carrot's, I will give her one or even two points without problem.
So no, for now, the points will stays the same.
No, the meeting between Luffy and Yamato is not included. Why ? Because this meeting is only important in significance for the readers and not for Luffy
And no I won't remove a point for Carrot. Carrot DID spenta lot of time with the crew, it's an UNDENIABLE fact same for the interactioN. And if you have trouble understanding why, reread whole cake and check the interactions of Carrot and the crew. I won't move on that points.
Yes there is an unfair advantage for Carrot.. that's what I'm trying to scream to you since the beginning. Remember, betweenthe beginning of Zo and whole cake, there is probably month. That's more than enough.
plus Carrot is not the one with the most point here, I was VERY fair with that point. It's not my fault if Yamato still had a LOT to prove.
Still no
Still no.
Here it's not because of me, but because you don't understand what a need and a purpose. Frankly I explain that enough here so you will have to check for that.
No, it's a necessity. You can't be a strawhat crewmate without a post on the Sunny.
Still no.
That's your headcanon. and yes Yamato COULD be introduced with a capacity for a post, and show that post.. She could.. But it's more than unlikely as those introductions (as I explained clearly in my blog) usually come very early. Thinking that Oda drew Carrot at the look out post only to "demonstrate" for no reasons(demonstrate what?) is foolish and best.. disrespectfull at worst lol
Okay I will stop that with that post.. I'm lagging to much. See you in the next.
Without good referencing, I know for a fact that the panels won't get checked and that I will be called a liar. So my only good option is to reproduce my articles and add the pics with it, already done it, but for some (one mostly) article, no can do, too long.
No, some things can only be explained. Of course I can show you some panels to "illustrate" my arguments, but when the core of the argumentation resides in something that is invisible to the eyes the only solution is a good explanation.
So ok... i'll do my best to give manga panels as much as possible, but you need to understand that it not always possible. Because if you don't accept the simple fact that the storytelling is something that run BEHIND the curtain, we won't go anywhere.
Yup that what are hypothesis. Probable. Once they become more probable and consistant, I call them theories.
Carrot didn't dissapeared either, she is still here, she is still part of the story, she only has a lesser role in it. Don't twist my word for the love of usopp.. this is meaningless, you know I can catch you everytime.. sceptic, remember ?
My rule is clear: the character has to be relevant to the story: meaning that they have to be part of the story and have had in the ENTIRE story a good amount of panel time. No one but you are you acolytes are saying that this must only be focused on Wano.. so please.. listen to what I say.. take a deep breath, accept the fact that you can't prove me wrong on this, stop trying to twist my word and argumentation and move on!
Like I said I'm a sceptic i already tried to prove my point wrong, at the beginning, there were actually more than that. But the work is done now
Now that's a good point I'm willing to listen. Indeed all the girls have technically their antagonist prior joining BUT you forget a thing:
Antagonists are only setup just before their introductions meaning that we can't know about the antagonist until the very moment the story of the chararacter "re"start. For Nami, it's the moment when she sees Arlong's poster and for Robin, it's the arrival of CP9 in Water seven. So that logic stays the same for Carrot : an antagonist could be introduced based on her story at ANY moment after Wano. Until we are introduced to it, anything can happen and Carrot can't be ruled out. (See.. here only by logic based on the story, I can give you that principle, no need for manga panel)
A bit more respect with my coffee please!
My definition of "joining" is very clear thanks. Yes Carrot will deal will most likely deal with her antagonist after Wano. Even tho I changed my mind a bit today about that.. In fact I think we can indeed consider Perospero as Carrot antagonist, but it's just not someone she will have to face, she will deal with his ideology indirectly. I'm saying that because Antagonist in One Piece are not usually defeated by the characters themself but by other.. it can be strawhats or others.. Brook's antagonist (Ryuma) was - for example - defeated by Zoro. Brook only resolved his personnal conflict after that. By himself.
Yes Carrot has higher chances than Yamato and I only need one panel for that. This panel has the strenght to be self sufficient. It's litterally ALL you should need to prove the point of Carrot. But.. seems like even manga panels proofs are not enough for the likes of you.
No, I never said that. You must have missunderstood my argument.
I said that Flashbacks are tool.. yes.
I said that they are used to give us the necessary elements needed for the recruitment.. yes..
But NOT that "having terrible flashback is the tool for recruitment." (plus this sentence doesn't mean anything)
I truly don't know how Carrot will be recruited, their are so many possibilities that even trying to make hypothesis would be meaningless, it's too soon. I only know she will.
Yeah, I should be more specific with that, because this is kinda no incomplete. If Yamato is indeed a red hearring for Carrot, it DOESN'T MEAN that she was created to be one. I don't think that she was created to be a red hearing. BUT she is USED as a one for Carrot by Oda right now so, technically.. she is a red hearing.That is what the construction of the story tells me.
Lol.. yeah.. about that.. you should compared the way Oda draws Carrot in Sulong VS the way Oda draws Yamato in her form. it's pretty telling which one he prefers xD
No, #NotAllYamatoFans (lmao), only those who are making me repeat 100 time the same things, that are twisting my words, and that laughs when they are provided with clear analysis.
I suspect Oda to treat his audience equally, meaning that he put as much efforts at surprising adults and children. if you think that One Piece and Oda are not here to twist your brain, then you didn't read One Piece.
Wrong.
Yamato only meets the requirement of the first sorting (the seven rules), Yamato lacks a bit of things to be considered a potential Nakama (The 10+1 Pillars)
Check this page (link to my blog), and you will see that Yamato is actually making quite a run. She is just missing the most important things to be considered a future strawhat (the post and it's introduction/The Nakama shining action mostly). And that's only on the elements of the list of the Ten Pillar, as you can see with those 6 arguments in the writing itself, she lacks a lot more things.
Does this mean that Yamato can't be a strawhat ? No, she could but it would need a lot of writing by Oda and a backflip in term of characterization. (but it's still possible, just less likely than Carrot)
You have missunderstood what the "thematic incarnation" really is. But it might be my bad, it was a short explaination.
"A thematic incarnation adds weight to the character's desires and is a reminder serving the main character: Luffy. This incarnation is highlighted thanks to the actions and the character's personnality traits"
Basically a thematic incarnation must be something very important to KEEP during the adventure (I should've started with that, I'll add it) that's what I mean by "reminder serving the main character", a thematic incarnation represent something that Oda view as very important to bring with the crew on the ship. It's a quality, something important. And the reason it's so clear like "wonder" or "Honor" it's because those qualities are directely shown IN the story either with the action or the dialogue of the characters. That's why you can see Carrot repeating the word "wonder" each time she is in awe for the world around her : Oda wants us to understand that this is her best quality and the best thing that she can bring to the crew.
So no, the inherited will is not a thematic incarnation, it's a theme. Don't get me wrong it could end up on a good "thematic incarnation" for Yamato in the end, but we wil have to see more to judge.
Ok so here you are talking about the sixth Pillar - the strong character arc.
I'm explaining that the character must face a challenge and ultimately make a choice.
So here I will try to explain clearly that choice of giving Yamato 2 point and Carrot three point (And Momo 4 point)
First you have to understand what is a character arc. For that, I can't explain it here, you will have to read some book about the creation of story, the "hero's Journey" is a good place to start. I'll just summarize it: Basically when a character is thrown into adventure, he must face a challenge at the end of this challenge, this character will be tested, this test will most likely consist in a choice between two options. This is a reccurent scheme that happens in every stories even the most experimental ones. One Piece is not an exception.
That's why, for each chararacter arc (a character can have multiple character arc in One Piece) the character will be faced with a challenge (staying with Big Mom and facing the hostage situation of his dad for Sanji) and at the end.. a choice (Risking the life of his friend and telling the truth to Sanji or keeping the status co to save his dad for sanji)
The character arc of sanji here is an exemple of BIG character arc. Those only happens once per arc. Most of the time the character arcs in One Piece are smaller. Carrot - for example - passed through a small character. Grieving Pedro, she made the choice to act for the strawhats and accept Pedro's death (hence was born 888) this was a specific choice, but this was a bit too small for a good cahracter arc, that's why Carrot only gets three points. On the contrary, Momo was given a much bigger character arc. Faced with the challenge of Kaido.. Momo had to choose between lying and staying alive and staying true to his family and claim is rightfull name. By saying "I'm Kozuki Momonosuke,and I will be the shogun of Wano" Momo ended his character arc prepared since Punk hazard. That's why Momo gets all the points here.
Now we arrive to Yamato, for her the thing is that she is INDEED faced with a challenge, she must protect Wano.. but she has YET to be faced with a real defining choice.
The moment Yamato will be faced with a choice as strong as Momo or even as small as Carrot's, I will give her one or even two points without problem.
So no, for now, the points will stays the same.
No, the meeting between Luffy and Yamato is not included. Why ? Because this meeting is only important in significance for the readers and not for Luffy
And no I won't remove a point for Carrot. Carrot DID spenta lot of time with the crew, it's an UNDENIABLE fact same for the interactioN. And if you have trouble understanding why, reread whole cake and check the interactions of Carrot and the crew. I won't move on that points.
Yes there is an unfair advantage for Carrot.. that's what I'm trying to scream to you since the beginning. Remember, betweenthe beginning of Zo and whole cake, there is probably month. That's more than enough.
plus Carrot is not the one with the most point here, I was VERY fair with that point. It's not my fault if Yamato still had a LOT to prove.
Still no
Still no.
Here it's not because of me, but because you don't understand what a need and a purpose. Frankly I explain that enough here so you will have to check for that.
No, it's a necessity. You can't be a strawhat crewmate without a post on the Sunny.
Still no.
That's your headcanon. and yes Yamato COULD be introduced with a capacity for a post, and show that post.. She could.. But it's more than unlikely as those introductions (as I explained clearly in my blog) usually come very early. Thinking that Oda drew Carrot at the look out post only to "demonstrate" for no reasons(demonstrate what?) is foolish and best.. disrespectfull at worst lol
Okay I will stop that with that post.. I'm lagging to much. See you in the next.
No, some things can only be explained. Of course I can show you some panels to "illustrate" my arguments, but when the core of the argumentation resides in something that is invisible to the eyes the only solution is a good explanation.
So ok... i'll do my best to give manga panels as much as possible, but you need to understand that it not always possible. Because if you don't accept the simple fact that the storytelling is something that run BEHIND the curtain, we won't go anywhere.
Yup that what are hypothesis. Probable. Once they become more probable and consistant, I call them theories.
Carrot didn't dissapeared either, she is still here, she is still part of the story, she only has a lesser role in it. Don't twist my word for the love of usopp.. this is meaningless, you know I can catch you everytime.. sceptic, remember ?
My rule is clear: the character has to be relevant to the story: meaning that they have to be part of the story and have had in the ENTIRE story a good amount of panel time. No one but you are you acolytes are saying that this must only be focused on Wano.. so please.. listen to what I say.. take a deep breath, accept the fact that you can't prove me wrong on this, stop trying to twist my word and argumentation and move on!
Like I said I'm a sceptic i already tried to prove my point wrong, at the beginning, there were actually more than that. But the work is done now
Now that's a good point I'm willing to listen. Indeed all the girls have technically their antagonist prior joining BUT you forget a thing:
Antagonists are only setup just before their introductions meaning that we can't know about the antagonist until the very moment the story of the chararacter "re"start. For Nami, it's the moment when she sees Arlong's poster and for Robin, it's the arrival of CP9 in Water seven. So that logic stays the same for Carrot : an antagonist could be introduced based on her story at ANY moment after Wano. Until we are introduced to it, anything can happen and Carrot can't be ruled out. (See.. here only by logic based on the story, I can give you that principle, no need for manga panel)
A bit more respect with my coffee please!
My definition of "joining" is very clear thanks. Yes Carrot will deal will most likely deal with her antagonist after Wano. Even tho I changed my mind a bit today about that.. In fact I think we can indeed consider Perospero as Carrot antagonist, but it's just not someone she will have to face, she will deal with his ideology indirectly. I'm saying that because Antagonist in One Piece are not usually defeated by the characters themself but by other.. it can be strawhats or others.. Brook's antagonist (Ryuma) was - for example - defeated by Zoro. Brook only resolved his personnal conflict after that. By himself.
Yes Carrot has higher chances than Yamato and I only need one panel for that. This panel has the strenght to be self sufficient. It's litterally ALL you should need to prove the point of Carrot. But.. seems like even manga panels proofs are not enough for the likes of you.
No, I never said that. You must have missunderstood my argument.
I said that Flashbacks are tool.. yes.
I said that they are used to give us the necessary elements needed for the recruitment.. yes..
But NOT that "having terrible flashback is the tool for recruitment." (plus this sentence doesn't mean anything)
I truly don't know how Carrot will be recruited, their are so many possibilities that even trying to make hypothesis would be meaningless, it's too soon. I only know she will.
Yeah, I should be more specific with that, because this is kinda no incomplete. If Yamato is indeed a red hearring for Carrot, it DOESN'T MEAN that she was created to be one. I don't think that she was created to be a red hearing. BUT she is USED as a one for Carrot by Oda right now so, technically.. she is a red hearing.That is what the construction of the story tells me.
Lol.. yeah.. about that.. you should compared the way Oda draws Carrot in Sulong VS the way Oda draws Yamato in her form. it's pretty telling which one he prefers xD
No, #NotAllYamatoFans (lmao), only those who are making me repeat 100 time the same things, that are twisting my words, and that laughs when they are provided with clear analysis.
I suspect Oda to treat his audience equally, meaning that he put as much efforts at surprising adults and children. if you think that One Piece and Oda are not here to twist your brain, then you didn't read One Piece.
Wrong.
Yamato only meets the requirement of the first sorting (the seven rules), Yamato lacks a bit of things to be considered a potential Nakama (The 10+1 Pillars)
Check this page (link to my blog), and you will see that Yamato is actually making quite a run. She is just missing the most important things to be considered a future strawhat (the post and it's introduction/The Nakama shining action mostly). And that's only on the elements of the list of the Ten Pillar, as you can see with those 6 arguments in the writing itself, she lacks a lot more things.
Does this mean that Yamato can't be a strawhat ? No, she could but it would need a lot of writing by Oda and a backflip in term of characterization. (but it's still possible, just less likely than Carrot)
You have missunderstood what the "thematic incarnation" really is. But it might be my bad, it was a short explaination.
"A thematic incarnation adds weight to the character's desires and is a reminder serving the main character: Luffy. This incarnation is highlighted thanks to the actions and the character's personnality traits"
Basically a thematic incarnation must be something very important to KEEP during the adventure (I should've started with that, I'll add it) that's what I mean by "reminder serving the main character", a thematic incarnation represent something that Oda view as very important to bring with the crew on the ship. It's a quality, something important. And the reason it's so clear like "wonder" or "Honor" it's because those qualities are directely shown IN the story either with the action or the dialogue of the characters. That's why you can see Carrot repeating the word "wonder" each time she is in awe for the world around her : Oda wants us to understand that this is her best quality and the best thing that she can bring to the crew.
So no, the inherited will is not a thematic incarnation, it's a theme. Don't get me wrong it could end up on a good "thematic incarnation" for Yamato in the end, but we wil have to see more to judge.
Ok so here you are talking about the sixth Pillar - the strong character arc.
I'm explaining that the character must face a challenge and ultimately make a choice.
So here I will try to explain clearly that choice of giving Yamato 2 point and Carrot three point (And Momo 4 point)
First you have to understand what is a character arc. For that, I can't explain it here, you will have to read some book about the creation of story, the "hero's Journey" is a good place to start. I'll just summarize it: Basically when a character is thrown into adventure, he must face a challenge at the end of this challenge, this character will be tested, this test will most likely consist in a choice between two options. This is a reccurent scheme that happens in every stories even the most experimental ones. One Piece is not an exception.
That's why, for each chararacter arc (a character can have multiple character arc in One Piece) the character will be faced with a challenge (staying with Big Mom and facing the hostage situation of his dad for Sanji) and at the end.. a choice (Risking the life of his friend and telling the truth to Sanji or keeping the status co to save his dad for sanji)
The character arc of sanji here is an exemple of BIG character arc. Those only happens once per arc. Most of the time the character arcs in One Piece are smaller. Carrot - for example - passed through a small character. Grieving Pedro, she made the choice to act for the strawhats and accept Pedro's death (hence was born 888) this was a specific choice, but this was a bit too small for a good cahracter arc, that's why Carrot only gets three points. On the contrary, Momo was given a much bigger character arc. Faced with the challenge of Kaido.. Momo had to choose between lying and staying alive and staying true to his family and claim is rightfull name. By saying "I'm Kozuki Momonosuke,and I will be the shogun of Wano" Momo ended his character arc prepared since Punk hazard. That's why Momo gets all the points here.
Now we arrive to Yamato, for her the thing is that she is INDEED faced with a challenge, she must protect Wano.. but she has YET to be faced with a real defining choice.
The moment Yamato will be faced with a choice as strong as Momo or even as small as Carrot's, I will give her one or even two points without problem.
So no, for now, the points will stays the same.
No, the meeting between Luffy and Yamato is not included. Why ? Because this meeting is only important in significance for the readers and not for Luffy
And no I won't remove a point for Carrot. Carrot DID spenta lot of time with the crew, it's an UNDENIABLE fact same for the interactioN. And if you have trouble understanding why, reread whole cake and check the interactions of Carrot and the crew. I won't move on that points.
Yes there is an unfair advantage for Carrot.. that's what I'm trying to scream to you since the beginning. Remember, betweenthe beginning of Zo and whole cake, there is probably month. That's more than enough.
plus Carrot is not the one with the most point here, I was VERY fair with that point. It's not my fault if Yamato still had a LOT to prove.
Still no
Still no.
Here it's not because of me, but because you don't understand what a need and a purpose. Frankly I explain that enough here so you will have to check for that.
No, it's a necessity. You can't be a strawhat crewmate without a post on the Sunny.
Still no.
That's your headcanon. and yes Yamato COULD be introduced with a capacity for a post, and show that post.. She could.. But it's more than unlikely as those introductions (as I explained clearly in my blog) usually come very early. Thinking that Oda drew Carrot at the look out post only to "demonstrate" for no reasons(demonstrate what?) is foolish and best.. disrespectfull at worst lol
Okay I will stop that with that post.. I'm lagging to much. See you in the next.
So.. same here.. still no.
Yes, most of the strawhat needed the ship for their Shining Nakama action, but most of them (beside Jinbe who was imprisonned) could gave us a hint about that.
same as the points above.. If Yamato is showing her skill during a Nakama Shining action, she will be considered a real potential and I will add the points for her here. Until then, Carrot is still ahead.
So Yes we are not on the sea, but the point of this theory, is not to imagine what could Yamato do without any evidences. It is to take the EXISTING evidences and makes the most probable theory around those evidences.
Again, Oda COULD give us hints about Yamato's shining Nakama action, Oda COULD gave us hints of a potential ability for Yamato to ANY post.. the fact is.. he didn't. And we are not in the case of Impel Down. yamato has a lot of freedom, their is a lot potentiality here. So the sea is not an excuse.
I won't postpoined just because mdam Yamato has not been on the sea yet.. The Nakama battle does not care about that. We takes what we have in the story NOW.
You made a good point. I'm willing to step back and delete that first point. (The next, being "That respect in based on the action of Luffy toward them and not his words. Each Nakama has been changed deeply by the presence of Luffy but it didn't happen to Yamato, Yet. Yes Yamato has been freed for her shakles, but not her mind. " stays the same tho)
No it does not matter. same for the strenght. If those two parameter were important, Oda would make sure to make points about it. No, Luffy does not recruit people because they are strong. If you remember, Luffy found Zoro interested because of the devilish side that was surrounding him. And Luffy only decided to recruit him the MOMENT he figured that Zoro was someone with honor and someone very gentle.
Here.. a little bit of evidence through manga panel:
Luffy never recruits his Nakama based on strenght. The recrutment pattern is much deeper than taht. Remember the "thematic incarnations" taht all the strawhats are representing ? "Joy / Pride / Intelligence etc.." well those ARE the pattern on which Luffy recruit (surely unintentionnaly) his crewmates.
That's why the strenght and the heritage of Yamato doesn't mean anything.. at all for the recruitment.
An apprentice role ? Really ? Show me were there is traxce in the story of yamato being a potential apprentice please. I'll wait. (your second remark would be a redundancy
Not in the case of yamato. Oden sole reason to jion Roger was to decifer poneglyph, nothing else. You can't just put parrallelism every where just because it fits your narrative. That a youtube theorist level mistake.
No. That's what the story tells me. you can see that by the fact taht Yamato refused to test her shakle. I the case of Luffy, for example, Luffy wouldn't have hesitated for once second.
This argument stilll holds.
This point is about the comparison between yamato and Carrot not yamato herself. So what you just said is meaningless.
Yeah nah.. that's not how japanese work. lol
Wrong, it's not even a request, it's a statement. I have made and explained enough this point here, I won't repeat it again. This argument still holds.
yeah.. here you just don't understand a concept so you are dismissing it.. logical and typical but it is meaningless. This point still holds.
No. There was no hole. but I agree there there was one point of contention I was ready to give up. So here you go, you made me move on one point. Way to go !
Yes, most of the strawhat needed the ship for their Shining Nakama action, but most of them (beside Jinbe who was imprisonned) could gave us a hint about that.
same as the points above.. If Yamato is showing her skill during a Nakama Shining action, she will be considered a real potential and I will add the points for her here. Until then, Carrot is still ahead.
So Yes we are not on the sea, but the point of this theory, is not to imagine what could Yamato do without any evidences. It is to take the EXISTING evidences and makes the most probable theory around those evidences.
Again, Oda COULD give us hints about Yamato's shining Nakama action, Oda COULD gave us hints of a potential ability for Yamato to ANY post.. the fact is.. he didn't. And we are not in the case of Impel Down. yamato has a lot of freedom, their is a lot potentiality here. So the sea is not an excuse.
I won't postpoined just because mdam Yamato has not been on the sea yet.. The Nakama battle does not care about that. We takes what we have in the story NOW.
You made a good point. I'm willing to step back and delete that first point. (The next, being "That respect in based on the action of Luffy toward them and not his words. Each Nakama has been changed deeply by the presence of Luffy but it didn't happen to Yamato, Yet. Yes Yamato has been freed for her shakles, but not her mind. " stays the same tho)
No it does not matter. same for the strenght. If those two parameter were important, Oda would make sure to make points about it. No, Luffy does not recruit people because they are strong. If you remember, Luffy found Zoro interested because of the devilish side that was surrounding him. And Luffy only decided to recruit him the MOMENT he figured that Zoro was someone with honor and someone very gentle.
Here.. a little bit of evidence through manga panel:
Luffy never recruits his Nakama based on strenght. The recrutment pattern is much deeper than taht. Remember the "thematic incarnations" taht all the strawhats are representing ? "Joy / Pride / Intelligence etc.." well those ARE the pattern on which Luffy recruit (surely unintentionnaly) his crewmates.
That's why the strenght and the heritage of Yamato doesn't mean anything.. at all for the recruitment.
An apprentice role ? Really ? Show me were there is traxce in the story of yamato being a potential apprentice please. I'll wait. (your second remark would be a redundancy
Not in the case of yamato. Oden sole reason to jion Roger was to decifer poneglyph, nothing else. You can't just put parrallelism every where just because it fits your narrative. That a youtube theorist level mistake.
No. That's what the story tells me. you can see that by the fact taht Yamato refused to test her shakle. I the case of Luffy, for example, Luffy wouldn't have hesitated for once second.
This argument stilll holds.
This point is about the comparison between yamato and Carrot not yamato herself. So what you just said is meaningless.
Yeah nah.. that's not how japanese work. lol
Wrong, it's not even a request, it's a statement. I have made and explained enough this point here, I won't repeat it again. This argument still holds.
yeah.. here you just don't understand a concept so you are dismissing it.. logical and typical but it is meaningless. This point still holds.
No. There was no hole. but I agree there there was one point of contention I was ready to give up. So here you go, you made me move on one point. Way to go !
No, you didn't understand. What goes against her characterization would be a return to zou without enough evidence of a change of mind. And I say thisbecause of this:
(copy paste of the article"development inertia" of my blog
We need an allegorie
What I'll say here is my own take on a storytelling theory, but bear with me, I'm sure you will understand.
As a writer, one of the many ways to picture a character in a story is to put it through allegories, so here is one of them:
Imagine a Spaceship, we will call it Odyssey. Odyssey is the representation of your Character. For our example, Odyssey is a girl who can't trust anyone, making her quite encline to hurt the one she loves and reject everyone. You could say that Odyssey is like a broken spaceship.. a spaceship that just left a planet A and keeps on accelerating toward a planet B.
In our story, if Odyssey doesn't change, she will face a life of misery which is represented simply in our allegory by a Crash on planet B.
Avoid the crash
Your goal as a writer is simple. In this allegorie, it is to avoid a crash and land your Odyssey safely on planet B and in our story, it is to make your character change.
Now, this is where the allegory is important: In space, when you throw something, it doesn't stop, it continues to move by shear inertia.. unless an equal opposite force is applied. So in our allegory, Odyssey needs to encounter an opposite force along the way or at least find a way to creates more fuel and opposite force, not to crash.
The same happens in our story and in real life. We are human, and like spaceships, us and our characters have "inertia": We can't change the direction of our mindsets in the blink of an eye.
So like the spaceship, Odyssey as a character will have to pass through steps, encounters opposite forces along the way, obstacles, meet peoples who will change her, and finally make multiple choices that will put her on a different pass.
Change takes time
This is why development inertia is important when we analyse a story. To understand or predict a character's future.. It's important to analyse the Inertia of the characters in their own character arc.
For exemple, you can't expect Usopp to be a brave Warrior in every situation in the next chapter.. when all the clues are pointing toward the opposite. To evolve, Usopp needs to be put under high pressure repeatedly and even then, he evolves VERY slowly.
Another exemple: Robin. Wouldn' it be odd for her character to suddenly start cheerring like Luffy or Chopper? That because we would need a transition between those two states. For that, Oda would need to give us clues of potential change. By the way, Robin, already passed through such a change, it was just very subtle.
So how does it work for Odyssey in the story ? .. Well first she will encounter some fellow who accept her, but her "inertia" will make her first reject this person or at least doubt them. Then, with time passing this person might grow on Odyssey and she may even get attach to them.. but of course she is still in her inertia.. Here might come a choice, a choice for her to choose between two evil: ask for help from that person risking to put them in danger or face another bad situation alone.. And here is the pivot moment.. this is the moment where we know if Odyssey has what it needs to slow down completely and not crash.. This is the moment where the character makes a step toward change: Odyssey will call for help!
Remember, humans are like spaceships, they have inertia, they don't change overnight. In a story, you will always need to look toward that inertia:
- Is the character ready to change ?
- Does the character needs another push ?
Understand the development inertia of the characters in a story and you will be able to find out if they are ready to change or not.
THIS.. is why Carrot return to Zou would be in contradiction with her characterization. Carrot was characterized as wanting more and more wonder and appreciating them more and more. I make this metaphor often: A change of mind for Carrot here would be the same as seeing a kid with the choice of going in a roller coaster, wanting to turn back and go home for no reasons. This just wouldn't make any sence.
Carrot turning back to Zou without hints, would litterally be an characterization ERROR from Oda's part. (and I would stand by it)
Well.. with all respect.. the official translation is not really trustworthy either. So I might be able to agree with you here, but we would need a actual japanese translation.
but wait.. I did verify it and:
It's not that different in fact. Perospero is still talking about potential victory and luck.So the point still stand.
An arc revolving around reponsibility would implied the presence of other person. Carrot is alone in her arc. it's not about someone else but her own vision of the sea and life in general.
A recklessness on the other hand.. might be a good option for an potential grow up yes I agree.
Oh don't get me wrong.. if I say that Carrot must prove Perospero wrong.. Perospero is completely right there !
i do agree with you here. Carrot really thought she could just have a nice pic nic.. The thing is.. even if that's true, now Carrot must show that this is not how she will apprehend life from now on.
On the contrary, this potential arc of character doesn't negate the fact that carrot must stowaway again, but this time this will not be for the same reason. Yes Carrot will stowaway again because of the wonder of the sea, but I expect Carrto to have change her mind about the reason why she do that BEFORE she stowaway.
And even more so.. Oda's cahracter are known to be a little bit more human than humans.. meaning that they sometimes make the same mistakes twice (sanji was a good exemple of that). That why, even if Carrot doesn't change her mind, she is bound to stowaway again. and in that case, she would be reminded of her mistakes post Wano. (i expect also Carrot to do something bad in Elbaf.. like going over alimit or something)
No, getting on sea (at this point of the characterization of Yamato) would only go in the side of Yamato's train of thoughts. it would only confirms her own belief and not challenge them.. And that what we don't want when we create a cahracter are ! Belief must be challenged, and even if Yamato still ends up on the sea with the strawhats, it won't be AT ALL in the same state of mind and same intention. Again I repeat: in a good cahracter arc, the character must be challenged to a point when his intention are changed. The result can be the same, but not the train of thoughts.
The reason I always say that yamato is bound to be on Wano, is because of that 180° change that will most likely happen (andalso because every chapter are depicting Yamato as a protector and not a strawhat)
Remember Onigashima is the place were yamato was imprisonned, not Wano. Wano is like a new world for her, she didn't get there since she was little. in a way, she was forbidden to go there.
You are the only one here I can't really call a bias personn, you actually understand the argument, even if you debate them
I explained that just ealier to @JoSeungHun7335
Here is the text:
Backstories are storytelling tools. Like foreshadowing, like Subversion dialogues, like Milking, Like dialogues etc.. It means that when you analyse a story, the important part is not the backstory in itself but HOW this tool was or is used to tell a story.
In One Piece bacstories are used (with the strawhats) to give us three major elements:
1- The character that is the core moral pillar of the strawhat (Hillulukà
2- The need of the strawhat (what the character will have to overcome in the present storyline), with Chopper, it was the need to trust the humans and therefore being able to overcome his own bad self confidence.
3- The purpose of the strawhat and the reason behind this purpose (for Chopper the reason he is so fierce with his dream his because of the teachings of Hilluluk
But like I said, backstory are just a tool. Odamostly used backstories because it's the most easiest pass to give us those elements. It's efficiant, it's fast, in other word, it's the best tool to give us those three things.
But!
It doesn't meant that backstories are the ONLY tools and way to give us those three elements. in fact, there are a lot of way to do that.
For carrot, Oda couldn't really use the backstory (Carrot being mostly happy before Zo and her arc being centered around the discovery of the sea..) so Oda used others technics.. two strong introductions, a steady construction, a swift characterization, a tragedy, a defeat etc..
By doing that, oda managed to give us:
1- The moral pillar :Pedro
2- The HINTS of a need :The need to understand the danger of the sees
3 - The HINTS of a purpose: Fighting for the minks, Pedro and a wish to see the world.
Now as you can see with Carrot here (but also with Yamato, because it's pretty much the same case) we don't have everything fully yet. We have HINTS of the needs and purpose, but those could change (unlikely), it's because the characterization of Carrot (and Yamato) is still ungoing. We need the very last part, (that happens inpretty much all the flashbacks) : the determination promise. This is the moment when the character promise something to themself (For Chopper, it's when he move the flag at the end of th FB)
But.. again... it's not something that needs to be placed in the flashback. For Carrot (and for Yamato, because she will have to do the same) it will most likely happen at the very end of Wano.
So here is why a backstory is not needed.. I don't need panels to do that, just the storytellings rules and the storytelling principles of One Piece. Of course I could give you examples of everything for each characters, but it would take hours... so yeah.. this is the next best thing. In short, the reason why all the strawhat has it, it's because it was "easy" for them and not so much for Carrot.. because that story is different.
Concerning the "where is Luffy defeating the main villain, check the conclusion I made a twist. ;)
The reason I put it in the conclusion and not in the big ten. (is first because I like round numbers) is because this point is very debatable. Like I explained to someone this week, the antagonist are not always delt with by Luffy. Plus, Luffy is not always "saving the character" most of the time, the cahracter are saving themself, Luffy is just helping them.
But I put it here anyway.. 'cause you know.. I wanted to be as fair as possible.. and seeing the gap between yamato and Carrot, I wished not to give Yamato fan a reason to bully me lol
The cahracter centric arc is litterally the section called "a strong cahracter arc" I explained in detail previously why yamato had only 2 point here. (- it's the sixth PIllar), and the "outcast" point is part of the symbolic reach of the character as being an outcast is more relevant in that section. (And both Yamato and Carrot have the point here ;) )
(copy paste of the article"development inertia" of my blog
We need an allegorie
What I'll say here is my own take on a storytelling theory, but bear with me, I'm sure you will understand.
As a writer, one of the many ways to picture a character in a story is to put it through allegories, so here is one of them:
Imagine a Spaceship, we will call it Odyssey. Odyssey is the representation of your Character. For our example, Odyssey is a girl who can't trust anyone, making her quite encline to hurt the one she loves and reject everyone. You could say that Odyssey is like a broken spaceship.. a spaceship that just left a planet A and keeps on accelerating toward a planet B.
In our story, if Odyssey doesn't change, she will face a life of misery which is represented simply in our allegory by a Crash on planet B.
Avoid the crash
Your goal as a writer is simple. In this allegorie, it is to avoid a crash and land your Odyssey safely on planet B and in our story, it is to make your character change.
Now, this is where the allegory is important: In space, when you throw something, it doesn't stop, it continues to move by shear inertia.. unless an equal opposite force is applied. So in our allegory, Odyssey needs to encounter an opposite force along the way or at least find a way to creates more fuel and opposite force, not to crash.
The same happens in our story and in real life. We are human, and like spaceships, us and our characters have "inertia": We can't change the direction of our mindsets in the blink of an eye.
So like the spaceship, Odyssey as a character will have to pass through steps, encounters opposite forces along the way, obstacles, meet peoples who will change her, and finally make multiple choices that will put her on a different pass.
Change takes time
This is why development inertia is important when we analyse a story. To understand or predict a character's future.. It's important to analyse the Inertia of the characters in their own character arc.
For exemple, you can't expect Usopp to be a brave Warrior in every situation in the next chapter.. when all the clues are pointing toward the opposite. To evolve, Usopp needs to be put under high pressure repeatedly and even then, he evolves VERY slowly.
Another exemple: Robin. Wouldn' it be odd for her character to suddenly start cheerring like Luffy or Chopper? That because we would need a transition between those two states. For that, Oda would need to give us clues of potential change. By the way, Robin, already passed through such a change, it was just very subtle.
So how does it work for Odyssey in the story ? .. Well first she will encounter some fellow who accept her, but her "inertia" will make her first reject this person or at least doubt them. Then, with time passing this person might grow on Odyssey and she may even get attach to them.. but of course she is still in her inertia.. Here might come a choice, a choice for her to choose between two evil: ask for help from that person risking to put them in danger or face another bad situation alone.. And here is the pivot moment.. this is the moment where we know if Odyssey has what it needs to slow down completely and not crash.. This is the moment where the character makes a step toward change: Odyssey will call for help!
Remember, humans are like spaceships, they have inertia, they don't change overnight. In a story, you will always need to look toward that inertia:
- Is the character ready to change ?
- Does the character needs another push ?
Understand the development inertia of the characters in a story and you will be able to find out if they are ready to change or not.
THIS.. is why Carrot return to Zou would be in contradiction with her characterization. Carrot was characterized as wanting more and more wonder and appreciating them more and more. I make this metaphor often: A change of mind for Carrot here would be the same as seeing a kid with the choice of going in a roller coaster, wanting to turn back and go home for no reasons. This just wouldn't make any sence.
Carrot turning back to Zou without hints, would litterally be an characterization ERROR from Oda's part. (and I would stand by it)
Well.. with all respect.. the official translation is not really trustworthy either. So I might be able to agree with you here, but we would need a actual japanese translation.
but wait.. I did verify it and:
It's not that different in fact. Perospero is still talking about potential victory and luck.So the point still stand.
An arc revolving around reponsibility would implied the presence of other person. Carrot is alone in her arc. it's not about someone else but her own vision of the sea and life in general.
A recklessness on the other hand.. might be a good option for an potential grow up yes I agree.
Oh don't get me wrong.. if I say that Carrot must prove Perospero wrong.. Perospero is completely right there !
i do agree with you here. Carrot really thought she could just have a nice pic nic.. The thing is.. even if that's true, now Carrot must show that this is not how she will apprehend life from now on.
On the contrary, this potential arc of character doesn't negate the fact that carrot must stowaway again, but this time this will not be for the same reason. Yes Carrot will stowaway again because of the wonder of the sea, but I expect Carrto to have change her mind about the reason why she do that BEFORE she stowaway.
And even more so.. Oda's cahracter are known to be a little bit more human than humans.. meaning that they sometimes make the same mistakes twice (sanji was a good exemple of that). That why, even if Carrot doesn't change her mind, she is bound to stowaway again. and in that case, she would be reminded of her mistakes post Wano. (i expect also Carrot to do something bad in Elbaf.. like going over alimit or something)
No, getting on sea (at this point of the characterization of Yamato) would only go in the side of Yamato's train of thoughts. it would only confirms her own belief and not challenge them.. And that what we don't want when we create a cahracter are ! Belief must be challenged, and even if Yamato still ends up on the sea with the strawhats, it won't be AT ALL in the same state of mind and same intention. Again I repeat: in a good cahracter arc, the character must be challenged to a point when his intention are changed. The result can be the same, but not the train of thoughts.
The reason I always say that yamato is bound to be on Wano, is because of that 180° change that will most likely happen (andalso because every chapter are depicting Yamato as a protector and not a strawhat)
Remember Onigashima is the place were yamato was imprisonned, not Wano. Wano is like a new world for her, she didn't get there since she was little. in a way, she was forbidden to go there.
You are the only one here I can't really call a bias personn, you actually understand the argument, even if you debate them
I explained that just ealier to @JoSeungHun7335
Here is the text:
Backstories are storytelling tools. Like foreshadowing, like Subversion dialogues, like Milking, Like dialogues etc.. It means that when you analyse a story, the important part is not the backstory in itself but HOW this tool was or is used to tell a story.
In One Piece bacstories are used (with the strawhats) to give us three major elements:
1- The character that is the core moral pillar of the strawhat (Hillulukà
2- The need of the strawhat (what the character will have to overcome in the present storyline), with Chopper, it was the need to trust the humans and therefore being able to overcome his own bad self confidence.
3- The purpose of the strawhat and the reason behind this purpose (for Chopper the reason he is so fierce with his dream his because of the teachings of Hilluluk
But like I said, backstory are just a tool. Odamostly used backstories because it's the most easiest pass to give us those elements. It's efficiant, it's fast, in other word, it's the best tool to give us those three things.
But!
It doesn't meant that backstories are the ONLY tools and way to give us those three elements. in fact, there are a lot of way to do that.
For carrot, Oda couldn't really use the backstory (Carrot being mostly happy before Zo and her arc being centered around the discovery of the sea..) so Oda used others technics.. two strong introductions, a steady construction, a swift characterization, a tragedy, a defeat etc..
By doing that, oda managed to give us:
1- The moral pillar :Pedro
2- The HINTS of a need :The need to understand the danger of the sees
3 - The HINTS of a purpose: Fighting for the minks, Pedro and a wish to see the world.
Now as you can see with Carrot here (but also with Yamato, because it's pretty much the same case) we don't have everything fully yet. We have HINTS of the needs and purpose, but those could change (unlikely), it's because the characterization of Carrot (and Yamato) is still ungoing. We need the very last part, (that happens inpretty much all the flashbacks) : the determination promise. This is the moment when the character promise something to themself (For Chopper, it's when he move the flag at the end of th FB)
But.. again... it's not something that needs to be placed in the flashback. For Carrot (and for Yamato, because she will have to do the same) it will most likely happen at the very end of Wano.
So here is why a backstory is not needed.. I don't need panels to do that, just the storytellings rules and the storytelling principles of One Piece. Of course I could give you examples of everything for each characters, but it would take hours... so yeah.. this is the next best thing. In short, the reason why all the strawhat has it, it's because it was "easy" for them and not so much for Carrot.. because that story is different.
Concerning the "where is Luffy defeating the main villain, check the conclusion I made a twist. ;)
The reason I put it in the conclusion and not in the big ten. (is first because I like round numbers) is because this point is very debatable. Like I explained to someone this week, the antagonist are not always delt with by Luffy. Plus, Luffy is not always "saving the character" most of the time, the cahracter are saving themself, Luffy is just helping them.
But I put it here anyway.. 'cause you know.. I wanted to be as fair as possible.. and seeing the gap between yamato and Carrot, I wished not to give Yamato fan a reason to bully me lol
The cahracter centric arc is litterally the section called "a strong cahracter arc" I explained in detail previously why yamato had only 2 point here. (- it's the sixth PIllar), and the "outcast" point is part of the symbolic reach of the character as being an outcast is more relevant in that section. (And both Yamato and Carrot have the point here ;) )
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