After Yamato, I think Law actually has the most going for him for joining the Straw Hats of the currently known characters. He's got a new dream of learning what the Will of D is and we know that the answer is on Laugh Tale, so he's got a dream and a reason to sail with Luffy. He's already got his sad backstory and an arc antagonist that was beaten by Luffy, and he's been a major player in every arc he shows up in. We've had former leaders leave their groups behind in order to join the crew with Usopp, Franky, and Jinbe, so that won't be a problem. The biggest thing holding him back is his portrayal as a rival to Luffy given his battle with Big Mom and his potential redundancy as a doctor. He could be made a Chief of Staff since he's seemed interested in handling the alliances with Luffy, since he asked Luffy to talk to him first before forming alliances with the Minks and the Kozuki.
I would also raise the question as to what people expect the final size of the Straw Hats to be. The most common numbers thrown around are 11 and 13. 11 would match Luffy's early statement of gathering 10 members and would match Blackbeard's 10 Titanic Captains. 13 would follow the trend of recruiting 4 people in each section (East Blue, Paradise, New World) as well as the Japanese name for the crew being Mugiwara no Ichimi where ichimi could potentially be a wordplay on Ichi-mi which is 1-3, or 13. The vast majority of pirate crews are called kaizokudan, so the different wording could be a hint.
I couldn't agree more! I didn't actually know that about the Japanese name for the crew. I was leaning toward just Yamato lately, but maybe there's a chance for more after all!
Either way, it's ridiculous that there's so much Carrot discussion but Law is laughed off whenever he's brought up. He has more Strawhat criteria checked off then Yamato and Carrot combined.
I still think Yamato is much more likely to join because she actually declared her intent to join the crew, but Law is absolutely next in line.
Side note, I feel like people sleep on Boa to a lesser extent. She's far from the perfect candidate, but Imo she has a stronger case than Carrot at least.
I'm not going to continue to debate you until you stop pretending to be an authority. You literally have no understanding of Anatomy of a Story, and it shows in your arguments here and your comprehension of One Piece in general. I'm sick of you touting this, as if it makes you aware of "high end story telling concepts" that the rest of us aren't. For God's sake, you're not the only one who's read Anatomy of a Story. Your One Piece arguments are terrible because you think you know what you're talking about, but you clearly either misread, or didn't actually read "your bible". You want to debate? Let's first debate Anatomy of a Story, since you're not the only one who has a liturature degree.
So you DID read it.. okay, so this is indeed not a gap of knowledge.
I may have no understanding of the AoS, maybe, I'm not arguing that. Here I'll be arguing for the content and what the decades of studying that (and others litteratures) taught me. So buckle up. Cause this time we are entering DEEP in the subject as I will consider that you have precisely the knowledge. (this may not be related only to AoS)
So. first, I'll ignore the invectives and get on the subjects:
"Writers often mistakenly think of the opponent, also known as the antagonist, as the character who looks evil, sounds evil, or does evil things. This way of looking at the opponent will prevent you from ever writting a good story.
Instead you must see the opponent structurally, in terms of his function in the story. A true opponent not only wants to prevent the hero from achieving his desire but is competing with the hero for the same goal.
Notice that this way of defining the opponent organically links this step to your hero’s desire. It is only by competing for the same goal that the hero and the opponent are forced to come into direct conflict and to do so againg and again throughout the story. If you give your hero and opponent two separate goals, each one can get what he wants without coming into direct conflict. And then you have no story at all."
Does Oda follow this? No he doesn't. Look at the arc villains in One Piece, and almost none of them have the same goal as Luffy. They almost always have conflicting goals instead. Helmeppo just wants Zoro dead, Luffy wants to save him. Enel wants to destroy skypeia, Luffy wants to save it. Akainu wants to end the great pirate era by killing Ace, Luffy just wants to protect Ace.
Here is your first mistakes, you don't read AoS as a writer but as a reader. A simple reader can't understand at first glance what Truby is actually talking about here. because he doesn't need to understand the real importance of putting two similar desires in two completely different protagonists. Because it's not that easy to do, when creating a story similar to the story of Sanji for exemple; But, then, you understand that it not what Truby is saying here and you look closer to his writings:
(Here i'm translating from french and an old version, so you will excuse me if it might be different from what you have)
First there is this quote, that is primordial to understand that the real conflict between a character and it's antagonist/adversary is between the values first:
Characters
- Build the conflict
- 3 - The four character's value must enter in conflict
- "To tell a good story, it is not enough to create conflicts between the characters. You have to create conflicts between the characters and their values. [...] With the Standard method of opposition, two characters - the hero and a single opponent - fight for the same objective. And in the course of their confrontation, their values - as well as their ways of life - also come into conflict."
Now, there is that paragraph, this one took me a LONG time to understand as it is not highlighted, it's just a passing paragraph. On my first read I did not catch it, on the second neither.. I had to deconstruct the entire book to understand that their was actually a little paragraph there that was STELLAR important for the comprehension of the desire between a character and the antagonist(s). Without that, you can't understand how two completely different purposes (of the characters) in theory are in fact hidding the same strong desire.
The seven key steps of the narrative structure:
- 3. Adversary: " - When you think about some good stories, you often get the impression, at first glance, that the hero and the adversary are not trying to achieve the same goal. But we have to study things in more depth. Try to determine why the two characters are fighting. [...] the real reason they are fighting is the version of reality that everyone else will believe.
The trick to creating an adversary seeking to achieve the same goal as the hero is to find the deepest stage of the conflict between them.
Ask yourself, "What is the most important thing they are fighting for?"
Like that, it appears logical, a bit non important.. but as a writer, this is one the most important advice there is. Let's see how it applies to One Piece (and the baratie arc) and you will see that yes.. Oda is indeed using that principle. Instinctively or not .. that I don't now .. yet.
Let's took first the example you gave me: (note that here I'll be doing some analysis (and hard ones) on the nose, it might not be completely accurate)
FIrst, let's look at the values in conflict and let's see if we can find a common desire.
Helmeppo VS Zoro:
- Honor
- Justice
- The usage of Power
- Usage of Fear
- Truth
(notes how all those values are important as a first mate .. )
Here.. with the lecture of those chapter, something becomes clear very fast. All of them fighting for the same thing: Respect.
You could word it otherwise: They are all fighting to be respected.
With Zoro, this struggle will come mostly out of his flashback, but also by his action with the dog and him accepting to be arrested.
For Helmeppo, it the same but in a different way, you see Helmeppo's view of Power is compromised by the fear of his Dad.. and slowly but surely during this little arc, Helmeppo will loose the respect for the inhabitant, the marines but mostly FROM HIS DAD. That will break him, to a point where all he will try to do is regain that respect. (this is something of course that he will never gain from characters like Luffy or Zoro, but he will get that from Koby)
The search for respect is what drives those character, Helmeppo wants to be respected for the wrong reasons, and Zoro want to become so respected thathe will be able to echo his name right through the other world. (Look at most Zoro's interactions and fight, and you will see that the notion of respect is something primordial to his character)
Luffy VS Enel
- Strenght
- Usage of Power
- Freedom
- Determination
- Dream
Enel and Luffy are both fighting to find a treasure. Careful, when I say treasure I'm not saying "a box with gold in it". The treasure here is a dream, a promise so important to them that they will do everything to make sure that this promise is fullfiled. And this promise takes the form of the Big bright Golden Bell.
For Ener, it's will be the fairy vearth. The moon. The promise of becoming a true God among god.
For Luffy it will be to find the truth and ring the bell in order to prove to the world that:
Akainu VS Ace
- Loyalty
- Justice
- Power
- Control
For those two, the goal is more visceral. They will both fight to defend their vision of Piracy
This one would need a little more research to be complete. But mainly it's that. This conflict is pretty straightforward and very quick.
The problem in that conflict is that Akainu will be the attacker.. and that Ace should have never accepted the conflict. B y trying to defend Whitebeard and his vision of piracy, Ace is actually playing in the game of Akainu who's vision is very strict : All Pirates are scumbag. (Note that the conflict that will oppose Aikanu and Aokiji will also be related to a similar objectif but this time their vision of justice)
Both Ace and Akainu's objectif is white beard, one wants to protect it, the other destroy it.
----
As you can see in each of your exemple, the main antagonist and the protagonist are fighting exactly for the same thing, but this is burried under layers of storytelling. This is a very important thing to understand as a writer.
Now let's see some other exemple (I'll be brief, so buckle up)
Katakuri Vs Luffy - Not only Oda here push the button very far by making those two character very similar until their very power.. but he also reenforced this fight by the values that were in conflict. Which ones ?
Family
Protection.
Luffy and Katakuri here are fighting for the same thing: To protect their family. katakuri is basically the ultimate challenge for the goals Luffy put on himself two years before.
Gin VS Sanji
- Loyalty
- Kindness
Here, it's more personnal, they are fighting for their "father's wishes" or what they think their "father" want from them (the nuance is important) because of the respect they have for them. Sanji will defeat Gin only by being the nicest person possible. Gin will be unable to fullfill his captain wish, and will be completely devastated by it.. But this also what will make him grow over this toxic relationship (this is Gin who will put an end to Krieg). During that Arc, Sanji will understand through his conflict with Gin and the impact of Luffy .. that what his father wants in fact from him, is not to replace him or be by his side at the restaurant.. but just.. to be happy and to live his own live. (annnnnd.. i'm tearing up. FUDGE ODA)
let's see.. one more.. not an obvious one.. hm ..
Usopp VS Sugar
- Loyalty
- Courage
This one will be simple. What Usopp and Sugar are really fighting for are memories. Sugar wants to take them away, and Usopp wants to keep them. Ultimately (and indirectely) the battle will converge on the memories of Luffy.. this will be what will pushes Usopp over the Edge and awaken his observation Haki. A world without Luffy would be unimaginable for Usopp, that's why the sniper shot of Dressrosa is one of the most loyal and powerfull actions of Usopp.
Here.. So as you can see.. those shared desire are everywhere.. (With enough time their would be a myriad of exemple) Oda knows perfectly that a strong conflict oppose different visions of similar values and that in the end, all conflict have pretty much the same desire between them.. Sometime it's very well hidden.. but it's still there.
The conclusion? One Piece isn't the literary masterpiece you think it is. It's a fucking shonen manga for little kids filled with fart jokes and gag villains.
You're trying to force the story to adhere to what makes good literature, and making backwards arguments to fit that because you think Oda is a literary genius when he's not. He's just good at writing a fun story aimed at kids. The real answers to our arguments are much simpler if we don't have to force it into Truby's mold like a square block through the circle ring
I can go into tons of different ways that One Piece is nearly the opposite of what Truby would consider a good story, but hopefully this will be enough. Once you accept that your starting premise is flawed, we can have a real debate.
Honestly, anyone who knows anything about literature would laugh you out of the room if you tried to bring One Piece up in the same breath as Anatomy of a Story. Stop pretending, and learn that you are not the most educated person in the room.
And I just proved you wrong.. One Piece IS the literary masterpiece we all think it is, and it's even more... THe real question is : does it come naturally to Oda or not, the answer to the question is unknown. Truby would be actually thrilled to see how well Oda is understanding his concepts (if he knows them at all lmao)
I hope I managed to make you understand my point and lessen the bad appriori you had on me. Remember:
I will stop pretend to be an authority when people will at least understand the rules they are currently debatting with.
Unlike you who make ridiculous comparisons between Carrot and characters who have been on the crew since the fucking Pre timeskip and base your arguments on favoritism, here goes: Carrot was introduced 3 arcs ago, and during those 3 arcs (Zou, WCI, Wano ) she hasn't developed enough to be considered a Nakama. In Zou Momonosuke is more protagonist than her, besides that Zou is a Pre Wano and a Pre WCI that is, Carrot is a secondary in his own intro arc. In WCI (which is Sanji's arc and not Carrot's) its development only really happens at the end and because of Pedro. In Wano she was practically erased that is after the end of the alliance between minks / samurai / pirates Oda has no plans for her in the future unless she returns only in the final war. You spend so much wondering how she's going to join the crew, but never wondered if she should join the crew? what would be the relevance of Carrot to the crew at the current moment? she's not strong enough to fight New World characters (her Sulong mode only served to take down ships), she doesn't have any specialties or anything that stands out (don't you dare compare her to Usopp because he's a character that Oda writes since the beginning of the fucking series, and is much more complete than her). If she's going to be a simple and invisible character in the arcs, then go back to Zou and only return in the Final War(being very generous).:cheers::cheers:.Stop wondering how she's going to join the crew, and start asking if she should join the crew. Start to ask if Straw Hats realy NEED TO HAVE MORE MEMBERS.
Its really amazing this irrelevant weak character is discussed so much. Its mostly because she has "special" fans. And we all know why they like Carrot... Sigh
There is nothing wrong with liking a character for whatever reason, but stop talking about her for once please! She's not even a side character anymore. Please dear god can we discuss other characters? One Piece has sooo many characters...
Wrong. This character is discussed so much because she (Carrot) is the most likely potential to be a Nakama next. Also she is very interesting and has an intersting construction.
Its really amazing this irrelevant weak character is discussed so much. Its mostly because she has "special" fans. And we all know why they like Carrot... Sigh
There is nothing wrong with liking a character for whatever reason, but stop talking about her for once please! She's not even a side character anymore. Please dear god can we discuss other characters? One Piece has sooo many characters...
Well tell the mods until carrot stop being "irrelevant" don't mention her or you get ban from the thread but yea they ain't doing that and Yamato fans won't stop either soon the chapter out they came in her talking bout carrot goin home lol she already goin be in people mind till end of wano
I'm not going to continue to debate you until you stop pretending to be an authority. You literally have no understanding of Anatomy of a Story, and it shows in your arguments here and your comprehension of One Piece in general. I'm sick of you touting this, as if it makes you aware of "high end story telling concepts" that the rest of us aren't. For God's sake, you're not the only one who's read Anatomy of a Story. Your One Piece arguments are terrible because you think you know what you're talking about, but you clearly either misread, or didn't actually read "your bible". You want to debate? Let's first debate Anatomy of a Story, since you're not the only one who has a liturature degree.
"Writers often mistakenly think of the opponent, also known as the antagonist, as the character who looks evil, sounds evil, or does evil things. This way of looking at the opponent will prevent you from ever writting a good story.
Instead you must see the opponent structurally, in terms of his function in the story. A true opponent not only wants to prevent the hero from achieving his desire but is competing with the hero for the same goal.
Notice that this way of defining the opponent organically links this step to your hero’s desire. It is only by competing for the same goal that the hero and the opponent are forced to come into direct conflict and to do so againg and again throughout the story. If you give your hero and opponent two separate goals, each one can get what he wants without coming into direct conflict. And then you have no story at all."
Does Oda follow this? No he doesn't. Look at the arc villains in One Piece, and almost none of them have the same goal as Luffy. They almost always have conflicting goals instead. Helmeppo just wants Zoro dead, Luffy wants to save him. Enel wants to destroy skypeia, Luffy wants to save it. Akainu wants to end the great pirate era by killing Ace, Luffy just wants to protect Ace.
The conclusion? One Piece isn't the literary masterpiece you think it is. It's a fucking shonen manga for little kids filled with fart jokes and gag villains.
You're trying to force the story to adhere to what makes good literature, and making backwards arguments to fit that because you think Oda is a literary genius when he's not. He's just good at writing a fun story aimed at kids. The real answers to our arguments are much simpler if we don't have to force it into Truby's mold like a square block through the circle ring
I can go into tons of different ways that One Piece is nearly the opposite of what Truby would consider a good story, but hopefully this will be enough. Once you accept that your starting premise is flawed, we can have a real debate.
Honestly, anyone who knows anything about literature would laugh you out of the room if you tried to bring One Piece up in the same breath as Anatomy of a Story. Stop pretending, and learn that you are not the most educated person in the room.
No that's just you trying to tell the author that he doesn't know what he's talking about. The author himself said that his story isn't that deep, and that he tries to be more simplistic for his targeted audience. How you feel about it and try to forcibly change that is irrelevant.
No that's just you trying to tell the author that he doesn't know what he's talking about. The author himself said that his story isn't that deep, and that he tries to be more simplistic for his targeted audience. How you feel about it and try to forcibly change that is irrelevant.
- Honor
- Justice
- The usage of Power
- Usage of Fear
- Truth
(notes how all those values are important as a first mate .. )
Here.. with the lecture of those chapter, something becomes clear very fast. All of them fighting for the same thing: Respect.
You could word it otherwise: They are all fighting to be respected.
With Zoro, this struggle will come mostly out of his flashback, but also by his action with the dog and him accepting to be arrested.
For Helmeppo, it the same but in a different way, you see Helmeppo's view of Power is compromised by the fear of his Dad.. and slowly but surely during this little arc, Helmeppo will loose the respect for the inhabitant, the marines but mostly FROM HIS DAD. That will break him, to a point where all he will try to do is regain that respect. (this is something of course that he will never gain from characters like Luffy or Zoro, but he will get that from Koby)
The search for respect is what drives those character, Helmeppo wants to be respected for the wrong reasons, and Zoro want to become so respected thathe will be able to echo his name right through the other world. (Look at most Zoro's interactions and fight, and you will see that the notion of respect is something primordial to his character)
This for example makes so many unnecessary themes.
Theme- Ambition
Main Focus- Zoro
Main Villain- Morgan
Luffy- the outlier
Zoro and Morgans are exact oppistes thematically speaking, Luffy is the outlier for each, and we have supporting characters for the theme(s).
It's that simple and is used repeatedly throughout the series. Just one or 2 simple themes and everyone else helps push that theme.
Zoro's motivation is his ambition to be the WSS. He even showed fear of death because his ambition has yet to be realized. Howeve4, Zoro's ambition is fueled by the promise he made to another. Morgans is full of ambition for himself. He's incredibly arrogant and tries to create a reputation for himself. He only cares about his position and moving up the ranks.
There's more to say but this is enough to get the across. It ain't that deep.
And still butchering Oda's story telling to push Carrot. Up above he made up some story telling criteria when OP isn't that complicated.
This for example makes so many unnecessary themes.
Theme- Ambition
Main Focus- Zoro
Main Villain- Morgan
Luffy- the outlier
Zoro and Morgans are exact oppistes thematically speaking, Luffy is the outlier for each, and we have supporting characters for the theme(s).
It's that simple and is used repeatedly throughout the series. Just one or 2 simple themes and everyone else helps push that theme.
Zoro's motivation is his ambition to be the WSS. He even showed fear of death because his ambition has yet to be realized. Howeve4, Zoro's ambition is fueled by the promise he made to another. Morgans is full of ambition for himself. He's incredibly arrogant and tries to create a reputation for himself. He only cares about his position and moving up the ranks.
There's more to say but this is enough to get the across. It ain't that deep.
I couldn't agree more! I didn't actually know that about the Japanese name for the crew. I was leaning toward just Yamato lately, but maybe there's a chance for more after all!
Either way, it's ridiculous that there's so much Carrot discussion but Law is laughed off whenever he's brought up. He has more Strawhat criteria checked off then Yamato and Carrot combined.
I still think Yamato is much more likely to join because she actually declared her intent to join the crew, but Law is absolutely next in line.
Side note, I feel like people sleep on Boa to a lesser extent. She's far from the perfect candidate, but Imo she has a stronger case than Carrot at least.
Something funny is that there was a period when I was unfamiliar with pretty much all of the time skip stuff in One Piece. I was focusing on other things due to personal issues. Though I actually got back in the series and caught up again in 2018 after I randomly read chapter 900.
But before that I occasionally saw an out of context clip of post ts content. If I remember right one of the clips was of Law on the ship saying he doesn't like bread and freaking out. And at the time, before I knew the context, his whole vibe with the crew and the ship made me think he was already a member lol.
All I thought was "Oh cool, they got another swordsman!"
And I do see what you mean currently as that dude definetly has a lot going for him in terms of Straw Hat material. In a different timeline where he didn't have a crew to be responsible for I can see him joining the crew in Dressrosa as the Strawhat's Surgeon.
And who knows, considering his ambition to learn the meaning of D + his only roadblock being his crew I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility.
I couldn't agree more! I didn't actually know that about the Japanese name for the crew. I was leaning toward just Yamato lately, but maybe there's a chance for more after all!
Either way, it's ridiculous that there's so much Carrot discussion but Law is laughed off whenever he's brought up. He has more Strawhat criteria checked off then Yamato and Carrot combined.
I still think Yamato is much more likely to join because she actually declared her intent to join the crew, but Law is absolutely next in line.
Side note, I feel like people sleep on Boa to a lesser extent. She's far from the perfect candidate, but Imo she has a stronger case than Carrot at least.
The wordplay on ichimi is definitely something I haven't seen brought up much in most forums I've read. Personally, I lean towards 11 being the final number, mostly because it matches with Oda's planning out the end of the series and intending on 10 at the beginning. I also think the Blackbeard Pirates are intended to be a dark reflection of the Straw Hats, including number wise, and it would be odd for Oda to go out of his way to add 1 unknown member during the time skip and add even more after that instead of just having 2+ join at once.
Boa is an interesting one, especially since Nami foreshadowed her along with Robin in Loguetown and would match the women members of the crew being antagonist-aligned before joining. She certainly has the tragic past of a Straw Hat. The biggest thing holding her back is her dream seems to just be being in a relationship with Luffy, to which Oda has said romance will never happen on the crew. The only possible alternative right now would be to end the reign of the Celestial Dragons, but she hasn't shown any actual interest in doing so.
Another interesting case is Viola, though I don't think she's a candidate for joining. She meets practically all of the criteria aside from a weak relationship with Luffy compared to past members and being second fiddle to Rebecca. She's even seemingly antagonist-aligned, and her Devil Fruit would be perfect for a lookout. The most interesting thing is that she would actually match up very well with the "bolero" mentioned in the early crew sketch, as she's a Spanish-themed dancer (flamenco) just as bolero is also a Spanish dance. Perhaps Viola was an early prototype for the crew that Oda decided against.
The wordplay on ichimi is definitely something I haven't seen brought up much in most forums I've read. Personally, I lean towards 11 being the final number, mostly because it matches with Oda's planning out the end of the series and intending on 10 at the beginning. I also think the Blackbeard Pirates are intended to be a dark reflection of the Straw Hats, including number wise, and it would be odd for Oda to go out of his way to add 1 unknown member during the time skip and add even more after that instead of just having 2+ join at once.
Boa is an interesting one, especially since Nami foreshadowed her along with Robin in Loguetown and would match the women members of the crew being antagonist-aligned before joining. She certainly has the tragic past of a Straw Hat. The biggest thing holding her back is her dream seems to just be being in a relationship with Luffy, to which Oda has said romance will never happen on the crew. The only possible alternative right now would be to end the reign of the Celestial Dragons, but she hasn't shown any actual interest in doing so.
Another interesting case is Viola, though I don't think she's a candidate for joining. She meets practically all of the criteria aside from a weak relationship with Luffy compared to past members and being second fiddle to Rebecca. She's even seemingly antagonist-aligned, and her Devil Fruit would be perfect for a lookout. The most interesting thing is that she would actually match up very well with the "bolero" mentioned in the early crew sketch, as she's a Spanish-themed dancer (flamenco) just as bolero is also a Spanish dance. Perhaps Viola was an early prototype for the crew that Oda decided against.
Another thing to note is that Oda’s birthday is January 1st = 11
Oda’s birthday is exactly as new year, and that’s also the reason why he made Miss Double Finger ( 1 - 1 ) who actually means Miss New Year
So it’s in between having 11 member including Luffy excluding Sunny, or 13 menbers including Luffy excluding Sunny as the ichimi theory like you mentioned
So you DID read it.. okay, so this is indeed not a gap of knowledge.
I may have no understanding of the AoS, maybe, I'm not arguing that. Here I'll be arguing for the content and what the decades of studying that (and others litteratures) taught me. So buckle up. Cause this time we are entering DEEP in the subject as I will consider that you have precisely the knowledge. (this may not be related only to AoS)
So. first, I'll ignore the invectives and get on the subjects:
Here is your first mistakes, you don't read AoS as a writer but as a reader.
Already a big assumption, and a wrong one at that. I first read that book in highschool when I was getting serious about writing my novel. Not off to a great start here.
A simple reader can't understand at first glance what Truby is actually talking about here. because he doesn't need to understand the real importance of putting two similar desires in two completely different protagonists. Because it's not that easy to do, when creating a story similar to the story of Sanji for exemple; But, then, you understand that it not what Truby is saying here and you look closer to his writings:
(Here i'm translating from french and an old version, so you will excuse me if it might be different from what you have)
First there is this quote, that is primordial to understand that the real conflict between a character and it's antagonist/adversary is between the values first:
Characters
- Build the conflict
- 3 - The four character's value must enter in conflict
- "To tell a good story, it is not enough to create conflicts between the characters. You have to create conflicts between the characters and their values. [...] With the Standard method of opposition, two characters - the hero and a single opponent - fight for the same objective. And in the course of their confrontation, their values - as well as their ways of life - also come into conflict."
Now, there is that paragraph, this one took me a LONG time to understand as it is not highlighted, it's just a passing paragraph. On my first read I did not catch it, on the second neither.. I had to deconstruct the entire book to understand that their was actually a little paragraph there that was STELLAR important for the comprehension of the desire between a character and the antagonist(s). Without that, you can't understand how two completely different purposes (of the characters) in theory are in fact hidding the same strong desire.
The seven key steps of the narrative structure:
- 3. Adversary: " - When you think about some good stories, you often get the impression, at first glance, that the hero and the adversary are not trying to achieve the same goal. But we have to study things in more depth. Try to determine why the two characters are fighting. [...] the real reason they are fighting is the version of reality that everyone else will believe.
The trick to creating an adversary seeking to achieve the same goal as the hero is to find the deepest stage of the conflict between them.
Ask yourself, "What is the most important thing they are fighting for?"
Like that, it appears logical, a bit non important.. but as a writer, this is one the most important advice there is. Let's see how it applies to One Piece (and the baratie arc) and you will see that yes.. Oda is indeed using that principle. Instinctively or not .. that I don't now .. yet.
Yes, I understood this already. I literally quoted in in my last reply. Did you really not pay attention to anything that wasn't highlighted? If you're seriously trying to learn, you have to treat every line as important even if it's not. You describe this book as your bible, but you admitted above that you may have no understanding of it, and now you say you only thought the highlighted portions were important.
Let's took first the example you gave me: (note that here I'll be doing some analysis (and hard ones) on the nose, it might not be completely accurate)
FIrst, let's look at the values in conflict and let's see if we can find a common desire.
Helmeppo VS Zoro:
- Honor
- Justice
- The usage of Power
- Usage of Fear
- Truth
(notes how all those values are important as a first mate .. )
Here.. with the lecture of those chapter, something becomes clear very fast. All of them fighting for the same thing: Respect.
You could word it otherwise: They are all fighting to be respected.
With Zoro, this struggle will come mostly out of his flashback, but also by his action with the dog and him accepting to be arrested.
For Helmeppo, it the same but in a different way, you see Helmeppo's view of Power is compromised by the fear of his Dad.. and slowly but surely during this little arc, Helmeppo will loose the respect for the inhabitant, the marines but mostly FROM HIS DAD. That will break him, to a point where all he will try to do is regain that respect. (this is something of course that he will never gain from characters like Luffy or Zoro, but he will get that from Koby)
The search for respect is what drives those character, Helmeppo wants to be respected for the wrong reasons, and Zoro want to become so respected thathe will be able to echo his name right through the other world. (Look at most Zoro's interactions and fight, and you will see that the notion of respect is something primordial to his character)
Respect is not what either of them are fighting for. Helmeppo does not want to be respected. He wants to be feared. This is why he always invokes his father's name and not his own. He knows that he is not respected. But having his father's backing makes him feared. It's also why he watches as his feral beast almost kills a little girl, and smiles. He's getting off on the fact that no one can stop it. This is a common characteristic. A weak person, when given power over others, abuses it because they like feeling strong for once. Respect, instead of fear, is what he decided he wanted after he lost, when he trained with Coby.
And Zoro's goal of being the strongest swordsman has nothing to do with his conflict with helmeppo. beating Helmeppo or Morgan will not help him become stronger. They're too weak for him to even bother with normally. He is fighting to survive, and to save the little girl. Zoro didn't fight for respect until his first clash with Mihawk. Even Cabaji was not about respect, but about pride.
- Strenght
- Usage of Power
- Freedom
- Determination
- Dream
Enel and Luffy are both fighting to find a treasure. Careful, when I say treasure I'm not saying "a box with gold in it". The treasure here is a dream, a promise so important to them that they will do everything to make sure that this promise is fullfiled. And this promise takes the form of the Big bright Golden Bell.
For Ener, it's will be the fairy vearth. The moon. The promise of becoming a true God among god.
For Luffy it will be to find the truth and ring the bell in order to prove to the world that:
Yes, I'm aware of One Piece's loose definition of treasure. Far too lose to be used seriously in this context. A term that can connect "the moon" and "truth" can connect just about anything. One of the biggest themes of One Piece is that treasure can be literally anything as long as it's important to you. So in essence, saying they are fighting to find treasure just means they are fighting for what's important to them, which describes basically every conflict in fiction.
You can look at it another way, going back to Anatomy of a Story.
"Instead you must see the opponent structurally, in terms of his function in the story. A true opponent not only wants to prevent the hero from achieving his desire but is competing with the hero for the same goal.
Notice that this way of defining the opponent organically links this step to your hero’s desire. It is only by competing for the same goal that the hero and the opponent are forced to come into direct conflict and to do so againg and again throughout the story. If you give your hero and opponent two separate goals, each one can get what he wants without coming into direct conflict. And then you have no story at all."
In other words, if character's follow this rule, a situation where they have conflict with each other will happen naturally and not have to be forced.
But Luffy and Enel's conflict had to be forced. Enel could have simply gone to the moon without destroying skypeia on his way out, and Luffy could have rung the bell unimpeded. Because Oda was not following this rule, Enel and Luffy had to be forced into a conflict that was unnecessary for both of their goals in order to have a plot. That's exactly what this section is trying to prevent.
For those two, the goal is more visceral. They will both fight to defend their vision of Piracy
This one would need a little more research to be complete. But mainly it's that. This conflict is pretty straightforward and very quick.
The problem in that conflict is that Akainu will be the attacker.. and that Ace should have never accepted the conflict. B y trying to defend Whitebeard and his vision of piracy, Ace is actually playing in the game of Akainu who's vision is very strict : All Pirates are scumbag. (Note that the conflict that will oppose Aikanu and Aokiji will also be related to a similar objectif but this time their vision of justice)
Both Ace and Akainu's objectif is white beard, one wants to protect it, the other destroy it.
----
As you can see in each of your exemple, the main antagonist and the protagonist are fighting exactly for the same thing, but this is burried under layers of storytelling. This is a very important thing to understand as a writer.
Pretty sure I said LUFFY and Akainu, not Ace. And it was you who said many times that Luffy is ALWAYS the protagonist, so we have to measure the antagonists next to him. Luffy doesn't give a flying fuck about the great pirate era. He just didn't want Ace to die. It's nowhere close to Akainu's goal. And even if we were talking about Ace, you've shown once again that you don't understand these concepts. Just because they regard the same thing doesn't mean they're the same goal. One wants to kill Whitebeard, and the other wants to protect him. That's conflicting goals, not the same one. Read the example from the book again.
"For example, in a detective story, it appears that the hero wants to catch the killer and the opponent wants to get away. But they are really fighting over which version of reality everyone will believe."
They are both regarding the killer. One wants him captured, the other wants him free. But according to your bible, this is not enough. Instead, they are fighting over who controls what people will believe. So why is it enough for Ace and Akainu?
Now let's see some other exemple (I'll be brief, so buckle up)
Katakuri Vs Luffy - Not only Oda here push the button very far by making those two character very similar until their very power.. but he also reenforced this fight by the values that were in conflict. Which ones ?
Family
Protection.
Luffy and Katakuri here are fighting for the same thing: To protect their family. katakuri is basically the ultimate challenge for the goals Luffy put on himself two years before.
Here, it's more personnal, they are fighting for their "father's wishes" or what they think their "father" want from them (the nuance is important) because of the respect they have for them. Sanji will defeat Gin only by being the nicest person possible. Gin will be unable to fullfill his captain wish, and will be completely devastated by it.. But this also what will make him grow over this toxic relationship (this is Gin who will put an end to Krieg). During that Arc, Sanji will understand through his conflict with Gin and the impact of Luffy .. that what his father wants in fact from him, is not to replace him or be by his side at the restaurant.. but just.. to be happy and to live his own live. (annnnnd.. i'm tearing up. FUDGE ODA)
Once again, these are conflicting because their "fathers'" wishes are conflicting. Imo the explanation on this was a stretch to begin with anyway. Sanji's method of fighting Gin is different from his reason for fighting Gin. His reason was simply to protect his family and home.
This one will be simple. What Usopp are really fighting for are memories. Sugar wants to take them away, and Usopp wants to keep them. Ultimately (and indirectely) the battle will converge on the memories of Luffy.. this will what will push Usopp over the Edge and awaken his observation Haki. A world without Luffy would be unimaginable for Usopp, that's why the sniper shot of Dressrosa is one of the most loyal and powerfull actions of Usopp.
Here.. So as you can see.. those shared desire are everywhere.. (With enough time their would be a myriad of exemple) Oda knows perfectly that a strong conflict oppose different visions of similar values and that in the end, all conflict have pretty much the same desire between them.. Sometime it's very well hidden.. but it's still there.
And I just proved you wrong.. One Piece IS the literary masterpiece we all think it is, and it's even more... THe real question is : does it come naturally to Oda or not, the answer to the question is unknown. Truby would be actually thrilled to see oh well Oda is understanding his concept (if he knows them at all lmao)
I hope I managed to make you understand my point and lessen the bad appriori you had on me.
You didn't prove me wrong, actually you proved me right. Nearly every example you gave shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the "high end literary concepts" you keep bragging about knowing.
For extra measure let's add another example of Oda not following Truby's mold.
"Writers who know that the story doesn’t galvanize the audience until the hero’s desire kicks in sometimes get a little too smart for their own good. They thing, “I’ll just skip the weakness-and-need step and start with desire.” They’ve just made a pact with the devil.
Opening with desire does give your story a quick start. But it also kills the payoff, the ending of the story. Weakness and need are the foundation of any story. They are what makes it possible for your hero to change at the end. They’re what makes the story personal and meaningful. And they’re what makes the audience care.
Don’t skip that first step. Ever."
Just how many of the strawhats had their weakness and need shown before their desire? not many. Not Sanji. Not Nami. Not Robin. Not Brook. Not Jinbei. Just accept it One Piece is a fun read, but like Oda said himself, it's really not that deep.
Another thing to note is that Oda’s birthday is January 1st = 11
Oda’s birthday is exactly as new year, and that’s also the reason why he made Miss Double Finger ( 1 - 1 ) who actually means Miss New Year
So it’s in between having 11 member including Luffy excluding Sunny, or 13 menbers including Luffy excluding Sunny as the ichimi theory like you mentioned
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