Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler

Is Bleach Better than Kingdom?

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Owl Ki

Owl Ki

‎
#641
#641
Kingslayer said:
Stupid plot i would say. Mythical realism shouldnt be in this manga at all.
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This is on par with saying that Black Clover should not have magic, Dragon Ball should not have ki, MHA should not have quirks or One Piece should not have pirates.

Spiritualism/mysticism/myth/whatever you want to call it has been a core part of Kingdom since the beginning of the series. To say that Kingdom should not have it is not judging the series for what it is but judging it for what it is not, which is just a plain unfair thing to do.
Kingslayer said:
He remindsme of old 80 s hero. Shin lacks personality to be fair as a non partisian in a war xin is a villain who is invading zhou for his evil king's ambition.

Riboku overall preferred peace over war. So he is the nice guy in the story.
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What? Did you miss the memo where Ei Sei’s entire life goal is to bring peace to China through unification?
Chapter 22

Chapter 487

Chapter 488

Both Riboku and Ei Sei are individuals that are willing to destroy the other states in order to secure peace (Riboku’s attempt to destroy Qin and Ei Sei’s goal to unify China).

So how come the nation destroyer Riboku is a “nice guy” while the nation destroyer Ei Sei is an “evil king”? They literally have the same desire for peace, just different methodologies on how to achieve it. Lol.
Kingslayer said:
I liked houken vs shin battle. I felt houken fight should have been more personal. Nothing as such happened. He was just another 1-D villain .
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Houken is not one dimensional.
Owl Ki said:
We finally got the answer to the contradiction that is Houken’s belief. :finally:

I have to say, Houken is becoming a far more tragic character than I expected him to be. :sadgrin:

So we have a man who dedicated his entire life to an ideal, an ideal that was designed to save everyone by holding personal attachments to no one.

Time and time again his belief in that ideology is tested by individuals who hold an ideology that is the antithesis of everything that Houken believes in. Individuals that according to Houken’s ideology should be inherently beneath him yet they always injure or outright nearly kill him.

So he seeks the answer to why this is and unfortunately for him, this is the answer.
Is it any wonder Kaine sheds a tear for this man? :catsweat:

Houken is currently still clinging to his ideology and why would he not? The idea that everything that one dedicated their heart, soul and entire life to was wrong, was a mistake, was a lie, must be the most bitter pill in existence to swallow and that is exactly what Houken is coming face to face with.
After seeing that pained face of sheer anger and pure frustration, I am wondering whether he is trying to convince Shin or himself. :josad:
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Owl Ki said:
I disagree. On the contrary it makes Houken’s character even more tragic than it already is.

I already made a post on the tragedy of Houken’s character before this flashback reveal.

This flashback merely further explains why Houken zealously believes in the path of the Bushin and vehemently rejects any other beliefs thus the flashback itself does not need to be long as it gets to the point quickly.

Houken was brainwashed and trained in the Bushin way. If Houken was to ever reject the Bushin way then he would need to admit that his entire life and ideology was a lie and all his past accomplishments were all meaningless.

Houken is now among the most tragic antagonists in this series along with Earl Shi, Mangoku and Gokei.
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Owl Ki said:
The way I see it is because Houken has no actual attachment towards those who he believes it his duty to assist (i.e. humanity).

To Houken, his belief in his cause is one of duty towards that which he holds no personal attachment to. He strives to become an example of the pinnacle that humanity can achieve and overcome but in doing so believes all those he comes across are naturally inferior to him. To put it simply, Houken is committed to humanity but is apathetic towards actual people. His drive and source of power comes solely from himself. He does not believe in the concept of inheritance of wills which is a big theme within Kingdom.

To someone like Ouki, his belief in his cause is one of dreams and desire. Ouki strived to achieve that which as far as history was concerned at the time, was unachievable. In seeking out to achieve the impossible he came across like minded individuals who he formed personal attachments with (e.g. King Sho and the Qin Six), lead those who came to follow his beliefs (e.g. Tou and the Ouki Army Commanders) and inspire the next generation (e.g. Shin, who also believes in the inheritance of wills).

Both Ouki and Shin care for the people that they know, whether they be individuals or the citizens of the nation they serve, rather than the broad concept of humanity in general. Their drive and source of power comes from both their own desire to achieve the goal of uniting China as well as the accumulation of inherited wills from all those they personally knew who have fallen while contributing to that goal.
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Kingslayer said:
Stupid plot i would say. Mythical realism shouldnt be in this manga at all.

This is pure shipping chapter. Nonsense plot to be said i hate these kind of chapters.
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The concept of life force has been around in the series since Chapter 85
The technique used was alluded to earlier in this very arc
All of this was done by the character who has the strongest connection to spiritualism out of any character in a series full of spiritualism.
Owl Ki said:
I have no problem with it being both. Lol. Kingdom has always been one part wars/battles/politics, one part philosophy/ideology and one part spiritualism.

Yet for some strange reason, some people seem to have completely focused on the political part to the point that when Hara returns to focus on the spiritualism aspect that has always been prevalent in his manga, people start losing their minds regarding a world where individuals possess auras that physically affect other people (since Chapter 10 no less).









A world where people see and interact with spirits.














In addition to all these panels, Ei Sei in Chapter 426 and 427 talks of the light that resides in all of humanity.





So we can also add every time these “lights of humanity” appear as well.
A world where individuals can manipulate their own life force to achieve practically superhuman feats.

Along with literally every time that Kyoukai uses the Shiyuu Priestess Dance onscreen. Lol.
Yet despite all this, we somehow have folks complaining about a major aspect of the manga that has been there since the beginning of the series. :kaidowhat:

Utterly ridiculous. :rolaugh:
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So it is not nonsensical. Perhaps not cleanly executed but certainly not nonsensical.

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.
 
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H

Homelander

#644
#644
@Owl Ki i read it but still Ei sei preferred bloodbath to create unification thats what technically communist mao was inspired of :milaugh: over solution offered by Ryu fui.

I would say Ryu fui was ahead in his thoughts thats what current world is working out that is democracy.

Only thing is ryu fui was born in wrong era . The warring state need an authortarian regime it was not like roman empire or byzantine they would never negotiate to things like democracy what ryu fui would offer.
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Xione said:
Had to log back in to comment on this chapter:

This manga has always been connected to mythical-realism, since chapter one. In the Kingdom universe, gods literally existed. Y'all should've been aware of what y'all were signing up for, especially seeing Shin's fighting in the first few chapters.

With that said, just so people don't get caught in the recent chapters to judge the arc, I'm gonna post these panels of the Zhou arc so everybody remembers how fucking the epic the whole arc has been, and how epic it's gone be to reread this shit as a whole.

Gathering of the young ones:

Gathering of the armies:

Announcement of Commanders:


Intro Tactics:


Team up of HSU & Mountain Ones:



Starting of the war battles:


Starting of the HSU battle:


All of the above is in less than half of the arc. My god is this fucking arc a masterpiece. Introduction of great characters like Bananji, Gyouun, the 3 great heavens guy, development of new HSU members, deaths of key HSU members, growth of Ouhon/Shin/Mouten as leaders, the various tactics used in each battlefields & before getting to the battlefields, Ousen's GOATness, Heki's GOATness, mfing BAJIO!, greatness of Totanwa, and so much more.

I have never been a fan of the whole mystical shit in the manga, but that is also part of the established manga where you have guys destroying multiple bodies with a freaking club. And I have been clear about my dislike of the Houken vs Shin fight, as it's the worst part of Zhou arc for me, with a terrible conclusion to all the build up that was there with Houken-Kyoukai-Shin.. But that does not take away from the epicness & the greatness of this whole arc. I just can't wait to see how this arc finishes off so I can start the reread, and enjoy the arc how it's meant to be enjoyed, as a whole.



So you liked one of the worst parts about the entire Zhou arc, that's interesting tbh.

Oda & Hara are about even as writers. Both are great at world building, character building, creating epic side characters and so on. To say one is worst than the others, simply would not be right or fair to them. They're creating the top 2 manga in the industry right now.
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Ya not really i d say oda fleshes out his story well if we look into pre time skip.

I am not against mythical plotline but last chapter made zero sense. I d say there should be fine line between mortality and spirtual.

I can understand kyoukai and houken have spirtual presence they are capable of spirtuality.

However once the story like power to resurrect thing or bringing person alive kinda ruins stuff the standard the manga has set. (Isnt it same like bleach , naruto or other manga then kingdom is no similar compared to other shounen) .

Great character like Ouki, keisha and others all died like a mortal being. This is what i liked in kingdon because no matter what death is inescapable thing and there is no supernatural stuff added to it.

This is why i was disappointed some might like that myth storyline. I kinda disagree because for me as reader its kinda like revisting any other shounen where hero always get revived due to some supernatural stuff . I can write entire essay but i d say many of you will agree to disagree.
 
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Owl Ki

Owl Ki

‎
#645
#645
Kingslayer said:
@Owl Ki i read it but still Ei sei preferred bloodbath to create unification thats what technically communist mao was inspired of :milaugh: over solution offered by Ryu fui.

I would say Ryu fui was ahead in his thoughts thats what current world is working out that is democracy.

Only thing is ryu fui was born in wrong era . The warring state need an authortarian regime it was not like roman empire or byzantine they would never negotiate to things like democracy what ryu fui would offer.
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This is the biggest attempt at changing the goalposts within a discussion that I have ever seen.

My post was not about whether Ei Sei’s methods were right, justified, good intentioned or noble. Nor had it anything to do with Ryofui. This is all irrelevant.

My post was about comparing Ei Sei to Riboku and how they are willing to commit the exact same atrocities to ensure peace.
Owl Ki said:
What? Did you miss the memo where Ei Sei’s entire life goal is to bring peace to China through unification?
Chapter 22

Chapter 487

Chapter 488

Both Riboku and Ei Sei are individuals that are willing to destroy the other states in order to secure peace (Riboku’s attempt to destroy Qin and Ei Sei’s goal to unify China).

So how come the nation destroyer Riboku is a “nice guy” while the nation destroyer Ei Sei is an “evil king”? They literally have the same desire for peace, just different methodologies on how to achieve it. Lol.
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So I have no idea how Ryofui suddenly comes into a discussion regarding the characters of Riboku and Ei Sei other than to completely derail it.

Are we going to condemn Ei Sei for destroying the other nation states to unify China but give Riboku a pass for desiring to turn Qin into an all you can rape, pillage and plunder buffet for all the other states to feast on? The man even brought Mangoku the Slaughterer with him for goodness sake.

Either both of these characters are evil based on whatever metric you are using or neither of them are evil but they cannot be different when they are willing to commit the exact same atrocities for ultimately the exact same reasons.

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.
 
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Elder Lee Hung

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
‎
#650
#650
A discussion about Ei Sei and Riboku? Two Top 5 Kingdom Characters of mine? Hold my beer
:akaman:

Kingslayer said:
@Owl Ki i read it but still Ei sei preferred bloodbath to create unification thats what technically communist mao was inspired of :milaugh: over solution offered by Ryu fui.
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1. If I am correct in that your argument is: "although Ei Sei's dream of Unifying China would in fact end the wars and make life better for everyone, at the end of the day Sei is just an 'evil tyrant' (or something along those lines) because the means with which he tries to bring about that reality are wrong", then that is a pretty morally shallow and short sighted view of both Sei's ambition as well as morality in General. The Ends do justify the Means, sometimes.

2. Saying that Sei's method is wrong because that method later inspired a real tyrant, is dumb. I'm sorry lol. I could point to numerous examples both in reality and in fiction of great men inspiring terrible men, doesn't make the actions of those great men invalid lol.

3. Ryou Fui's "solution" is not a "solution", and if you think it is then you need to go back and read the chapter where Sei and Ryofui both agree that Ryofui's method would not end the Era of war in China lol. Comparing the two is bizarre when Ryofui himself wasn't even trying to end the Warring States era, thinking it was not possible lol.

I would say Ryu fui was ahead in his thoughts thats what current world is working out that is democracy.
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Wait hold up.

Firstly, Ryofui wasn't really encouraging Democracy, he was encouraging Oligarchy lol. Which is fundamentally different from Democracy. Ryofui's method would've probably destroyed Qin in the long run lol.

For a great example of why Oligarchy's don't work, well...The French Revolution is the best one that comes to mind.

Second, there have been many philosophers and political theorists throughout history who have condemned democracy, including Socrates himself (one of the greatest philosophers ever). As someone who has lived in the U.S. (a democracy) for his entire life, I can tell you that Democracy has just as many problems as almost every other political system that there is (mainly trusting the ignorant masses to be smart enough to elect competent leaders and not ignorant demagogues lol.)

Only thing is ryu fui was born in wrong era . The warring state need an authortarian regime it was not like roman empire or byzantine they would never negotiate to things like democracy what ryu fui would offer.
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Nah, like I said above, Ryofui's method would've resulted in long term chaos. The rich would've gotten richer while the poor got poorer, eventually culminating in the impoverished masses beheading Ryofui and his entire regime and sticking their heads on pikes, and then starting over with a brand new system that was radically different from what Ryofui proposed. Assuming the enemy states didn't role in with powerful armies lead by top tier generals to pillage Qin into non-existence because remember, Ryofui won't have ended the Wars.

I'm not saying Sei's method is flawless, though Hara has very intelligently not presented a single valid, less bloody alternative than Sei's unification strategy.
 
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Shanks

Shanks

‎
#653
#653
Owl Ki said:
The clueless look on Shin’s face in the first panel is priceless. :milaugh:
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And later the look of OuHon seeing Shin is still alive...... lol

Can't wait for translation coz MouTen sama has a lot of dialogues in this chapter.
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Chapter summery thanks to the Kingdom Community and Jeeswag :

HSU:
Shin wakes up and the HSU is freaking out while Shin's confused. They start grabbing him and as expected Shin is in a whole lotta pain. While everyone is celebrating Shin notices Kyoukai is still out.

Other world:
Kyoukai is lost and finds her sister. Shou tells her why she said you couldn't use the technique and that it's amazing to see Kyoukai find a man she likes enough to use that technique for. When Shou asks when Kyoukai started liking Shin she replies saying he's just a comrade. Then Shou asks if she would use the same technique for that buck-tooth guy and she replies "ah...no..." lol. Shou then says it's fine if they just say Kyoukai cares about Shin and asks when that started to which Kyoukai replies "probably as soon as they met." Shou is jealous and salty. Shou says she has 1 bad news and 2 good news. Bad news: due to using the technique Kyoukai's life span has dropped. She asks if Kyoukai regrets it and immediately Kyoukai says no. Shou says then the last 2 good things are---
HSU:
Kyoukai woke up. Shin doesn't remember anything but says he saw her in a dream and says thank you. Mouten and co arrives saying they were nervous since it seemed like Shin died and says they came for nothing to Ouhon who says he didn't care. A soldier yells at the HSU to hurry up and chase Riboku and the HSU immediately gets reformed. Kyoukai and Shin are out of commision and Mouten begins to explain the situation per Shin's request. Riboku has run away and Sou'ou/Akakin are giving chase. Shin thinks he's to blame but Mouten believes Riboku had confidence in his escape plan due to how long he was watching the duel between Houken and Shin so it's not Shin's fault. They also saw other members of the Riboku army retreating. Bananji has escaped because he also had a predetermined escape plan and they couldn't give chase because they had to deal with the other Riboku center army soldiers. Kisui's army came from the Zhao right army to swing by and make it easier for Riboku's army to escape backwards before escaping himself. Batei says if he sees that woman again he'll kill her. Mouten says it's the Zhao army's full retreat and believes Riboku will head towards Gyou. Shin says they have to go after them and Mouten says they'll receive orders from Ousen soon. He then says the battle that lasted these past 15 days on the Shukai Plains is their victory.

No break!
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EDIT : Next chapter teaser - It's about Kanki army.
 
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Yo Tan Wa

Yo Tan Wa

‎
#654
#654
Shanks said:
And later the look of OuHon seeing Shin is still alive...... lol

Can't wait for translation coz MouTen sama has a lot of dialogues in this chapter.
Post automatically merged:

Chapter summery thanks to the Kingdom Community and Jeeswag :

HSU:
Shin wakes up and the HSU is freaking out while Shin's confused. They start grabbing him and as expected Shin is in a whole lotta pain. While everyone is celebrating Shin notices Kyoukai is still out.

Other world:
Kyoukai is lost and finds her sister. Shou tells her why she said you couldn't use the technique and that it's amazing to see Kyoukai find a man she likes enough to use that technique for. When Shou asks when Kyoukai started liking Shin she replies saying he's just a comrade. Then Shou asks if she would use the same technique for that buck-tooth guy and she replies "ah...no..." lol. Shou then says it's fine if they just say Kyoukai cares about Shin and asks when that started to which Kyoukai replies "probably as soon as they met." Shou is jealous and salty. Shou says she has 1 bad news and 2 good news. Bad news: due to using the technique Kyoukai's life span has dropped. She asks if Kyoukai regrets it and immediately Kyoukai says no. Shou says then the last 2 good things are---
HSU:
Kyoukai woke up. Shin doesn't remember anything but says he saw her in a dream and says thank you. Mouten and co arrives saying they were nervous since it seemed like Shin died and says they came for nothing to Ouhon who says he didn't care. A soldier yells at the HSU to hurry up and chase Riboku and the HSU immediately gets reformed. Kyoukai and Shin are out of commision and Mouten begins to explain the situation per Shin's request. Riboku has run away and Sou'ou/Akakin are giving chase. Shin thinks he's to blame but Mouten believes Riboku had confidence in his escape plan due to how long he was watching the duel between Houken and Shin so it's not Shin's fault. They also saw other members of the Riboku army retreating. Bananji has escaped because he also had a predetermined escape plan and they couldn't give chase because they had to deal with the other Riboku center army soldiers. Kisui's army came from the Zhao right army to swing by and make it easier for Riboku's army to escape backwards before escaping himself. Batei says if he sees that woman again he'll kill her. Mouten says it's the Zhao army's full retreat and believes Riboku will head towards Gyou. Shin says they have to go after them and Mouten says they'll receive orders from Ousen soon. He then says the battle that lasted these past 15 days on the Shukai Plains is their victory.

No break!
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EDIT : Next chapter teaser - It's about Kanki army.
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Most hyped line, Next Chapter- It's about Kanki Army.:fransuper::akaman:
 
Greenbeard

Greenbeard

‎
#655
#655
So Kyokai lost her life span a bit...and the technique can be used again and again as well...

Wonder what the two good things are? ( Think Shin and Kyokai surviving might be the two good things)..
Really interested about the retreat plan of Riboku and how Ousen's tired soldiers are going to chase him all the way back to Gyou...( I think Riboku thinks that Ousen's famished soldiers will no way chase his army down due to lack of energy...)
 
Yo Tan Wa

Yo Tan Wa

‎
#659
#659
Kingslayer said:
So why didnt kyoukai use life span on ouki if she can use again ? I hope they dont bring this storyline again .

Hoping to see my boi kanki in action now !!
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Haha the best i have seen .
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Did you skip Kyou kai and her sister conversation? she literally asks if she would do this for any of other members of Hi Shin Unit and Kyoukai refuses. Kyoukai doesn't realise it bt the answer was Love. She loves Shin and don't mind giving up her life for him.

And Yes, i also wanted Hara to provide something solid for it to never happen again( tho be rest assured it obv won't be repeated).
I think partial reason for Shin surviving was his own Will to live, he remembered his Dream and that he still hasn't fulfilled it and that allowed Kyoukai to save him. Atleast that's how i would like to interpret it.
 
Owl Ki

Owl Ki

‎
#660
#660
Kingslayer said:
So why didnt kyoukai use life span on ouki if she can use again ?
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Why would Kyoukai risk her life for Ouki using that technique?

She had little to no meaningful personal interaction with Ouki whatsoever. She never met him during the Battle of Dalkan Plains and during the Battle of Bayou, Ouki was just a commander to her, a commander that she respected but ultimately just a commander.

Compare that to Shin, an individual who has changed her for the better, fought multiple campaigns and battles with her, is her best and most trusted friend and who is someone she would rather die for than live without then it should be obvious why she would risk her life for Shin but not Ouki.
 
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