No, it's not Oden's responsibility. He doesn't owe them anything.
They put that burden on him when he had no interest in becoming a ruler "as stated by him"
They all deserve to burn/boiled, as simple as that.
Cause it's one thing to have someone say "He disappointed us". When he doesn't owe them a damn thing.
But it's entirely different matter for them to want to hear Oden's screams and agony and enjoy it.
They are worse than scum. End of story. And Orochi did nothing wrong to them. They all need to be boiled alive. And I will enjoy every second of every civilian of Wano being enslaved and being killed during that war, cause they deserve it
You have a brutal mentality man! It's like this: Yesterday, I climbed on to a foot-over-bridge only to find that few people have captured a pick-pocket and they were beating him. The others were enjoying the beating and some were shouting that he should be beaten further.
This is mob mentality. It doesn't reflect individual characteristics or nature of people in a country.
Answer me this!
Does Oden have a debt to these people? and he needs to repay it by fighting kaido?
Just like sheep, all of those people followed Kaido and Orochi's orders. They are not opposing to actually make me say "well, Oden abandoned them during a big fight"
Even if they do not know about the hostages. Even if there was no hostage and Oden danced and obeyed Kaido. Oden does not owe those people a single thing to actually make them this inhumane and actually give comments like "I wanted to hear more screams"
Dude, those people have no single humanity in them, if you see a stranger, and being executed, EVEN for crimes. Sometimes you feel empathy. Those people knew Oden. And despite the fact that Oden did not hurt them. He never killed a civilian. It doesn't matter if they know the truth of his dances or not.
Saying that they want him to "scream louder" and saying "they want him to die already"
They are worse than Hody jones. And Orochi should burn them ALL.
Where is that Game of Thrones meme "Burn them all" hahahaha
My point exactly. If it wasn't because there is a poneglyph in Wano, the scabbards need to avenge Oden's dead, and Yasuie's execution the people of Wano can go and free themselves. Some of them even live in the flower capital without caring for others that don't have anything to eat. LOL
He could've won, but with a lot of civil casualties.
Oden made a bet: Make a fool of yourself for five years, free the hostages because of it and save the entire country without any civilist dying, if those two idiots honor their vow.
If not, he could still go to war after those five years.
We saw that for the citizens of Wano his dancing was indeed beneficial, since nobody was kidnapped anymore and the hostages were freed (which Oden himself confirmed every month).
As the five years were over, he realized they wouldn't honor the contract and he went to war, almost winning against them and ultimately only done in by a dirty trick.
It really wasn't as dumb as some guys might want it to paint.
He could've won, but with a lot of civil casualties.
Oden made a bet: Make a fool of yourself for five years, free the hostages because of it and save the entire country without any civilist dying, if those two idiots honor their vow.
If not, he could still go to war after those five years.
We saw that for the citizens of Wano his dancing was indeed beneficial, since nobody was kidnapped anymore and the hostages were freed (which Oden himself confirmed every month).
As the five years were over, he realized they wouldn't honor the contract and he went to war, almost winning against them and ultimately only done in by a dirty trick.
It really wasn't as dumb as some guys might want it to paint.
So Oden dancing saved hundreds of people every time he danced, and to be sure they wee keeping their end he would visit the Flower Capital every time to check up on them. The deal turned sour once Orochi attacked Hyou and his band. Oden was betting on them losin interest in Wano and leaving once they got what they wanted. This chapter completely explained his logic going into it.
He is a man amongst man, yes, but his downfall has always been that he does everything alone. Heck, he didn't even tell anyone else why exactly he was dancing for five years.
Yeah because that I can understand why he choose the way with Oden, it fits to Oden character overall.
I think Oda build up two different ways but with two similar characters. Oden and Luffy, he shows Oden biggest weakeness and Luffy strongest ability.
Totally agree with this aswell, it didn´t would also fit in Oden character to beg or ask other people for his own problem, because that I can understand the point which Oda want try to show us.
You have a brutal mentality man! It's like this: Yesterday, I climbed on to a foot-over-bridge only to find that few people have captured a pick-pocket and they were beating him. The others were enjoying the beating and some were shouting that he should be beaten further.
This is mob mentality. It doesn't reflect individual characteristics or nature of people in a country.
He could've won, but with a lot of civil casualties.
Oden made a bet: Make a fool of yourself for five years, free the hostages because of it and save the entire country without any civilist dying, if those two idiots honor their vow.
If not, he could still go to war after those five years.
We saw that for the citizens of Wano his dancing was indeed beneficial, since nobody was kidnapped anymore and the hostages were freed (which Oden himself confirmed every month).
As the five years were over, he realized they wouldn't honor the contract and he went to war, almost winning against them and ultimately only done in by a dirty trick.
It really wasn't as dumb as some guys might want it to paint.
If i was Oden why in the world would i trust the man ( and his pirate ally) who admits to my face that he screw the country over with lies, killing my own father in the process, and repeatedly attempting to go after the life of my Wife/Children. Why would i ever even come close to have some kind of verbal contract with that person ?
That just sounds so dumb to me, really.
People are going to die, yes, likely even innocent people, but instead of letting the enemy gear up for 5 years while i humiliate myself in the streets, having the people that admired me before lose faith in me.....
You said it yourself, Oden could've went to War 5 years later anyways, so War was still an option in Oden's mind, right?
Why then waste the initiative of rallying up Hyo and his forces to beat down an enemy that was far weaker at that time ?
I know that you're one of the most level headed users here, but this entire Oden/Orochi, Kaidou fiasco + Oden's decisions...i just don't get behind it.
For the whole "does Oden actually owe the people of Wano", I think it's two-fold.
From the insular Wano feudal-Japan viewpoint- yes, he does. It's noblesse oblige and bushido. Oden is the lord of these people. He was born into privilege, and it is his responsibility, as their leader, to ensure his people's happiness and safety. It's kind of like how Vivi taught Luffy to be a better leader by begging for help- maybe not the best example but it's what come to me. Oden was responsible for them, and he left them. Twice. And that caused misery.
But then there's the other perspective. And that's the time honoured theme of One Piece- freedom and dreams. And Oden, for better or for worse, chased his dreams. Sure, he was born into the Wano system, but that system ain't perfect. Oden is a maverick who went against the grain, and that's ultimately going to lead to Wano opening it's borders.
So, folk need to remember- the characters are not perfect. They are not written to be, because that's boring and unrealistic. Your average Joe from Wano just wants his Shogun to take care of him. That's fair enough. They're pissed that Oden didn't do that (from their perspective) and just danced around when he came back. On the other hand, one-in-a-million Oden isn't average. He couldn't settle for staying in Wano his whole life. But he still feels guilty over leaving them, because there's the argument that he put himself above everyone else.
If i was Oden why in the world would i trust the man ( and his pirate ally) who admits to my face that he screw the country over with lies, killing my own father in the process, and repeatedly attempting to go after the life of my Wife/Children. Why would i ever even come close to have some kind of verbal contract with that person ?
That just sounds so dumb to me, really.
People are going to die, yes, likely even innocent people, but instead of letting the enemy gear up for 5 years while i humiliate myself in the streets, having the people that admired me before lose faith in me.....
You said it yourself, Oden could've went to War 5 years later anyways, so War was still an option in Oden's mind, right?
Why then waste the initiative of rallying up Hyo and his forces to beat down an enemy that was far weaker at that time ?
I know that you're one of the most level headed users here, but this entire Oden/Orochi, Kaidou fiasco + Oden's decisions...i just don't get behind it.
Guilt over what happened to Orochi as a child, under Oden's families watch, I think has played a major part. And guilt in general that he left Wano.
Plus, for five years, it seems Orochi and Kaido kept their word. There was peace. No more killings, no more kidnappings. Because of how the chapters flow, with the five years been skipped over so rapidly, I think the effect there was kind of lost on the reader's. Cause from our perspective, in the very same chapter as Oden's first dance Orochi kills Hyo's wife. So that makes us think, "Christ Oden, it's obvious he couldn't be trusted to keep his side of the deal." But in series Orochi does, in fact seem good to his word, and that's no small amount of time.
As far as I understood it, part of the deal was that nobody was kidnapped or killed anymore. It also says that Oden himself checked on the state of the citizens every single time he danced and that it was fine.
Wano was the same shit hole it was from before the agreement.
Just because people weren't being kidnapped doesn't change the fact that people were starving on the brink of death, being forced to work in the mines Orochi continued to build and how people were executed if they refused. No to mention the damage to the environment this was all causing which led to the poison issues found in the present day.
Oden's dance did very little to help the people of Wano. It saved them from being kidnapped and kept in the castle, in comparison to their ordinary lives of being forced to work like slaves, with hardly any food whilst the country suffered.
As far as I understood it, part of the deal was that nobody was kidnapped or killed anymore. It also says that Oden himself checked on the state of the citizens every single time he danced and that it was fine.
Wano was the same shit hole it was from before the agreement.
Just because people weren't being kidnapped doesn't change the fact that people were starving on the brink of death, being forced to work in the mines Orochi continued to build and how people were executed if they refused. No to mention the damage to the environment this was all causing which led to the poison issues found in the present day.
Oden's dance did very little to help the people of Wano. It saved them from being kidnapped and kept in the castle, in comparison to their ordinary lives of being forced to work like slaves, with hardly any food whilst the country suffered.
Never expected to enjoy this comfy duo
I love how petty and assholish they were toward Oden ( Kaido actually go in his dragon just to make fun of Oden with his buddy Orochi )
Wonder how they met
Oden, despite having the poor to fix things, forced his country to live like slaves at the hands of a snot nosed bitch, over a ridiculous agreement he had zero reason to ever trust to begin with.
If i was Oden why in the world would i trust the man ( and his pirate ally) who admits to my face that he screw the country over with lies, killing my own father in the process, and repeatedly attempting to go after the life of my Wife/Children. Why would i ever even come close to have some kind of verbal contract with that person ?
That just sounds so dumb to me, really.
People are going to die, yes, likely even innocent people, but instead of letting the enemy gear up for 5 years while i humiliate myself in the streets, having the people that admired me before lose faith in me.....
You said it yourself, Oden could've went to War 5 years later anyways, so War was still an option in Oden's mind, right?
Why then waste the initiative of rallying up Hyo and his forces to beat down an enemy that was far weaker at that time ?
I know that you're one of the most level headed users here, but this entire Oden/Orochi, Kaidou fiasco + Oden's decisions...i just don't get behind it.
I don't think we should approach the situation with our eyes (well, to be honest, 99% of us would've thrown in the towel in front of several mobsters and a world class killer anyway).
Oden isn't your ordinary dude.
He really has a heart of gold and just can't see people in his country die. Therefore he really wanted to believe Kaido and Orochi were honest, so he could solve this massive problem without thousands of civilists dying. That would've been massive btw.
The reputation argument doesn't interest him one bit, if he does the right thing in his mind. To be quite frank, once you get older you don't really give a crap about reputation anyway. When you're younger, reputation is everything for many, since they are generally more insecure at that age (as can be seen on instagram etc.), but that changes quickly the older and more successful in life you become.
But what if they really did betray him? Oden always trusted his own legendary strength and bet on himself winning in five years, if the worst outcome occured. We know Oden had a point here, too, since he probably would've indeed won, if not for that dirty trick.
We know Oden made some really bad decisions in hindsight, but from Oden's perspective they made sense and Oda himself totally intended to highlight his decisions compared to Luffy's way of thinking ("If you think there will be no casualties in this war, you're deeply mistaken!" - Luffy to Vivi).
Oden, despite having the poor to fix things, forced his country to live like slaves at the hands of a snot nosed bitch, over a ridiculous agreement he had zero reason to ever trust to begin with.
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