General & Others Oden was a shit leader and deserved to die

[comrade]

Dude, Zoro literally made a deal with Hemeppo at the start of OP, which would've killed him, if Luffy didn't intervene.
Not to mention Sanji and his multiple deals during the Zou and WCI arc, all of which would've led to his and the SHs death.
Characters - especially heroes - do this "honorable, but naive" stuff all the time in fictional works.

Jup. Zoro trusted Helmeppo. He trusted Kuma, who was the servant of the WG. Luffy trusted Aokiji in leaving his crew alone. Robin trusted the CP9 in lesving her crewmates alone.

Again. Orochi was a crybaby that told him his story of oppression similarily to fishmen.

Even Nami had compassion for hachi and felt empathy for the oppression of the fishmen, leading her to understand Arlong's actions.

 

[Jo_Ndule]

Pretty much this, especially when he encountered honorable pirates beforehand(Whitebeard and Roger). From his perspective, it was actually a good choice.

- They offered him to free every hundred hostages at every dance

And it's not like he did it blindly. He came to check everytime if everyone was alright and had a 5year time limit. From his perspective, the pirates may or may not have been as honorable as Whitebeard/Roger, but even if in case they were lying, he could have at least tried to save as much hostages as he could during those years and ultimately fight them off after the 5years timelimit if they didn't concur to the deal anyway, and ultimately his plan was working until the "killing of Hyogoro's wife" that made him realize they broke the deal and went all in then. Before that:

- They had multiple hostages, and even if he fought right there are now, he wasn't sure to win. They had the upperhand not only because they could kill the hostages at any time, but they could use them to weaken him emotionally as well

Even if he ended up winning the battle, it'd come down to a similar situation to Orochi's. Remember the reason why he ended up being evil? It's because his family was persecuted. Oden may have been strong himself, but his family would have been persecute. The image of the Kozuki clan would have been destroyed, all of that ruining his plan:

- Opening Wano borders, which will play a huge part in the world of one piece with the ancient kingdom, ancient weapons and relational battle against world government, history that Oden likely learned from his travel with Whitebeard and Roger, something he'd not have learned if he stayed in Wano

So ultimately then, i'd say that Oden just made one mistake, which was leaving Wano, because leaving Wano, indirectly allowed the grandma/grandpa/Orochi plot to build up into killing his dad and slowly but surely detroying the country, with kidnappings allowing Orochi/Kaido to gain emotional edge over him, but it's not like he could have known all that would have happened in his absence

On the other hand, as already mentioned before while he did made that mistake, his travel all over the world allowed him to grant a knowledge in the relation between Wano and Ancient Kingdom that he didn't know before, with this leading to something more important than his life, which would be to free the world from the world government, with his purpose in life(open Wano borders) being a trigger to that.

He wanted to live long enough to accomplish that because he believed he could use his infamy as Kozuki to lead as Shogun and manage that, but when he realized it wasn't his time yet, he decided as a last effort for someone else to inherit that will, with the new reincarnation of Joyboy and Momonosuke playing a huge part in it imo, with his legacy being leaving his swords behind to accomplish that

Just like comrade and rivaille , and others
You guy are trying to make it seem as if Oden didn't know about Orochi demise and personality which is false

Oden knew who was orochi
Orochi told him his schemes against wano

Yet Oden blindly trusted them

he bad 3 chances and blew it

 

[Jew D. Boy]

No, I know they had their reasons. That's why I said this



All these characters, Oden included, have had reason for doing what they did. But they were all, ultimately, mistaken.


Not strong enough

Oden could have went to war, sure. He wasn't strong enough to win though. Could give it the good college try, but in the end he would have died, along with thousands others.

He *did* die...along with thousands of others...so if the outcome was gonna be the same no matter what, give me a good reason why he couldn’t call upon the many famous and mighty pirates he knew to help him out. Bringing down Kaido and opening Wano’s borders are mutually exclusive events that just seem intertwined thanks to Oda’s writing; wouldn’t it be easier to wage a full-scale war with all his buddies, defeat the corrupt politician and his muscle, THEN wait peacefully for the appropriate time to open Wano to the world? Oden would possibly still be alive to see it in that scenario, but now...I don’t think he DESERVED to die, but he also could have done more in the interregnum to try and prevent it.

 

[Jo_Ndule]

Dude, Zoro literally made a deal with Hemeppo at the start of OP, which would've killed him, if Luffy didn't intervene.
Not to mention Sanji and his multiple deals during the Zou and WCI arc, all of which would've led to his and the SHs death.
Characters - especially heroes - do this "honorable, but naive" stuff all the time in fictional works.

BM was gonna kill strawhats and Germa
Sanji too acted naively

You dont blindly trust people that are openly bad without having any solid backup plan.

What Oden did is far worse than any of the characters you listed

 

[dizzy2341]

Dude, Zoro literally made a deal with Hemeppo at the start of OP, which would've killed him, if Luffy didn't intervene.
Not to mention Sanji and his multiple deals during the Zou and WCI arc, all of which would've led to his and the SHs death.
Characters - especially heroes - do this "honorable, but naive" stuff all the time in fictional works.

Characters in OP are dumb. That's nothing new.

But this is something far, far worse than anything that's been seen before. Zoro made a deal with MARINES, who at that point we didn't even know were a bad organisation. And even then, it wasn't that stupid to believe the deal would be honoured. Zoro was the only one affected by his deal.

This does not begin to compare to Oden as his decisions affected the entirety of Wano. Wano decayed, its people suffered, all because of Oden's inaction. Oden didn't take on all the suffering on his own, his people were suffering just as much under Orochi's rule, and still continue to suffer for 20 years after all because of idiotic decisions Oden made.

Do you see the difference? Zoro put himself on the line and only himself. Oden dragged the entirety of Wano down with his awful decisions, allowing a man who had openly stated he was planning to destroy the country, rule for 5 years, without having a single back up plan.

Let's not even bring up Sanji. He's also a terrible character.

All of Wano's issues are a result of Oden allowing Orochi to rise to power, and then Oden refusing to do anything about the situation. All those deaths, all that hardship, all the suffering and damage to Wano. That's all on Oden, almost as much as it is on Orochi and Kaido. He totally deserved his fate.

 

[JerAx]

Im sorry you like invincible flawless hero archetype but that is pure bad writing to me
its the reason why mangas fail

Oden is interesting because he try to shoulder everything alone IN CONTRAST TO LUFFY.
later down the line I bet luffy will be faced with a similar circumstances with oden, and the different action luffy will take will be asthonising.

Using anything from Reddit to support a point means you’ve lost all credibility, those children are too simple to keep up here. .

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Im sorry you like invincible flawless hero archetype but that is pure bad writing to me
its the reason why mangas fail

Oden is interesting because he try to shoulder everything alone IN CONTRAST TO LUFFY.
later down the line I bet luffy will be faced with a similar circumstances with oden, and the different action luffy will take will be asthonising.

This place can be pretty toxic at points, but it’s better than 18,000 daily instances of “oMG I just started OP and I luv it!!” or pictures of terrible freehand drawings that make characters look like that demon in your post or HILARIOUS snippets of text threads where people think they’re so funny for telling their friends about Ace’s post-timeskip design. You come here for serious conversation, for better and (often) for worse.

 

[ShadyOjiro]

Some comments here...



This is a typical fool me once,twice and even thrice case

 

[JerAx]

This place can be pretty toxic at points, but it’s better than 18,000 daily instances of “oMG I just started OP and I luv it!!” or pictures of terrible freehand drawings that make characters look like that demon in your post or HILARIOUS snippets of text threads where people think they’re so funny for telling their friends about Ace’s post-timeskip design. You come here for serious conversation, for better and (often) for worse.

I guess someone dont know how to use filter.

also you came here to have a serious power level discussion. you cant lie about that
so guess where those who nope the fuck out of power scaling debate goes to?

 

[Jew D. Boy]

I guess someone dont know how to use filter

I think I just need to be more judicious about filtering certain users HERE...

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

I just don’t like how Oden doesn’t consider contacting any of his allies outside of Wano for help or making a back up plan. That’s the offending issue. Oden has enough reason to suspect that Orochi won’t play fairly—the man attacked his family whilst Oden was galavanting around with pirates and seriously injured his wife—but he still expects Orochi to have any sense of fair play?

Orochi has shown to be absolutely putrid, allowing hundreds to suffer for no other reason than generational grudges. His animosity for the country palpable. But Oden still doesn’t have a plan in motion to thwart Orochi or suspect fowl play. That’s the part where it feels like someone replaced Oden’s brain with a child’s. I’d be fine if Oden tried something or had some contingency plan in place for betrayal and that failed. But it makes Oden really look like a fool here, despite Oda clearly wanting us to see Oden as this tragically heroic figure.

It just doesn’t mesh well.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

I just don’t like how Oden doesn’t consider contacting any of his allies outside of Wano for help or making a back up plan. That’s the offending issue. Oden has enough reason to suspect that Orochi won’t play fairly—the man attacked his family whilst Oden was galavanting around with pirates and seriously injured his wife—but he still expects Orochi to have any sense of fair play?

Orochi has shown to be absolutely putrid, allowing hundreds to suffer for no other reason than generational grudges. His animosity for the country palpable. But Oden still doesn’t have a plan in motion to thwart Orochi or suspect fowl play. That’s the part where it feels like someone replaced Oden’s brain with a child’s. I’d be fine if Oden tried something or had some contingency plan in place for betrayal and that failed. But it makes Oden really look like a fool here, despite Oda clearly wanting us to see Oden as this tragically heroic figure.

It just doesn’t mesh well.

Careful, TAC...rational thinking like that won’t get you far in this thread. That’s the same point I was trying to convey - whether or not other attempts would have even been as successful as the raid we just saw, THEY STILL COULD HAVE BEEN MADE. He was an ally of some of the strongest people in the outside world and presumably had some way of staying in touch with them (didn’t Den Den Mushi originate in Wano??), was a call ever made to Whitebeard or Rayleigh?? What was wrong with trying to actively end Orochi’s reign so they could prosper before opening the borders?? A real leader doesn’t JUST burst headlong into a conflict; with delicate situations like this, they consider EVERY option no matter how outrageous if it has a chance of working.

 

[Garp the Fist]

He *did* die...along with thousands of others...so if the outcome was gonna be the same no matter what, give me a good reason why he couldn’t call upon the many famous and mighty pirates he knew to help him out. Bringing down Kaido and opening Wano’s borders are mutually exclusive events that just seem intertwined thanks to Oda’s writing; wouldn’t it be easier to wage a full-scale war with all his buddies, defeat the corrupt politician and his muscle, THEN wait peacefully for the appropriate time to open Wano to the world? Oden would possibly still be alive to see it in that scenario, but now...I don’t think he DESERVED to die, but he also could have done more in the interregnum to try and prevent it.

Oden literally couldn't call on his allies even if he wanted to. That was never an option. The start of the flashback showed that- Oden could not get off Wano. He needed the random chance of Whitebeard getting shipwrecked to leave the island.

 

[JerAx]

I think I just need to be more judicious about filtering certain users HERE...

easy way to chicken out of discussion tbh

 

[ShadyOjiro]

Oden literally couldn't call on his allies even if he wanted to. That was never an option. The start of the flashback showed that- Oden could not get off Wano. He needed the random chance of Whitebeard getting shipwrecked to leave the island.

As far as I know Inu and Neko could leave...

 

[Reborn]

I guess this fits well with oden situation

Did oden make a mistake? Yes...if he wouldn't then there won't be any need of present plot of shs allying with samurais to take wano back which ultimately ties with void century and present story of one piece.


Did this mistake shit on oden character? Nope... From his perspective no...he is shouldering all the responsibility of his actions alone like a leader should.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Oden literally couldn't call on his allies even if he wanted to. That was never an option. The start of the flashback showed that- Oden could not get off Wano. He needed the random chance of Whitebeard getting shipwrecked to leave the island.

He needed someone to help him leave the island for the first time, he could have picked up a Den Den Mushi in the outside world for emergencies once he returned to Wano. Vivre Cards also exist, but I’ll allow that doesn’t really provide any quick means of communication.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Careful, TAC...rational thinking like that won’t get you far in this thread. That’s the same point I was trying to convey - whether or not other attempts would have even been as successful as the raid we just saw, THEY STILL COULD HAVE BEEN MADE. He was an ally of some of the strongest people in the outside world and presumably had some way of staying in touch with them (didn’t Den Den Mushi originate in Wano??), was a call ever made to Whitebeard or Rayleigh?? What was wrong with trying to actively end Orochi’s reign so they could prosper before opening the borders?? A real leader doesn’t JUST burst headlong into a conflict; with delicate situations like this, they consider EVERY option no matter how outrageous if it has a chance of working.

I’m not arguing whether he’s a leader or not. According to Oda’s internal logic—CoC is the sign of true leadership and Oden has it. It’s just the fact that he acted beyond stupid with Orochi. I can understanding wanting to save people. I can understand backing off for a bit to rethink your actions. I can’t understand taking a known liar whose committed horrible crimes against Wano and your family at his word.

So sure, Oden can be a leader. He just doesn’t seem to be a smart one.

Oden literally couldn't call on his allies even if he wanted to. That was never an option. The start of the flashback showed that- Oden could not get off Wano. He needed the random chance of Whitebeard getting shipwrecked to leave the island.

Somehow, the minks left the island. Likewise shortly after Oden’s demise, the time travelers hijacked a ship and left Wano to a middling degree of success. So it’s difficult but not impossible.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

easy way to chicken out of discussion tbh

Thanks for the advice, tough guy.

 

[comrade]

Time for an Oden Fanclub. I'm in.